mel jacobson on fri 13 apr 12
there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
his main theme was historical evidence that
in 1930 about 25
percent of all high school students
could do college work.
he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
school students could do college work.
in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
do college work.
in 2012 about 25 percent of high school kids can
do college work, and we try to send 90 percent of
all students to college. we even have remedial courses
so they can keep up. we have tutors to help them
keep up. and they come out of that experience with
about $125,000.00 in debt @9.9 percent interest.
that works out to be $950 a month for 16 years.
quality tech schools can place all their students that
have skill. am i missing something?
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Robert Harris on fri 13 apr 12
America (and the UK too) needs to change it's culture so that it's OK
not to go to college if you're not cut out for it. (Yet at the same
time not deride presidential candidates because they speak another
language ....!!!).
At the moment either you're a failure for not going to college or you
belong to a growing sea of anti-intellectualism where using your mind
for anything other than shootin' huntin' or fishin' means you're not a
true American (OK, I'm stereotyping here, and I enjoy a spot of
huntin' and fishin' myself).
Culture needs to change, not how we educate people.
And at one time a HS diploma meant a hell of a lot more than it does
now. When my father graduated from HS in 1950 (in Indiana), it was
pretty significant.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:39 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
> his main theme was historical evidence that
> in 1930 about 25
> percent of all high school students
> could do college work.
>
> he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
> school students could do college work.
>
> in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
> do college work.
>
> in 2012 about 25 percent of high school kids can
> do college work, and we try to send 90 percent of
> all students to college. =3DA0we even have remedial courses
> so they can keep up. =3DA0we have tutors to help them
> keep up. =3DA0and they come out of that experience with
> about $125,000.00 in debt @9.9 percent interest.
> that works out to be $950 a month for 16 years.
>
> quality tech schools can place all their students that
> have skill. =3DA0am i missing something?
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> =3DA0clayart link: =3DA0http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert Harris on fri 13 apr 12
And I used it's instead of its, which I am now kicking myself for,
especially after my earlier rant ....
The curse of the send button (before a re-read) strikes again.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Robert Harris wr=
=3D
ote:
> America (and the UK too) needs to change it's culture so that it's OK
> not to go to college if you're not cut out for it. (Yet at the same
> time not deride presidential candidates because they speak another
> language ....!!!).
>
> =3DA0At the moment either you're a failure for not going to college or yo=
u
> belong to a growing sea of anti-intellectualism where using your mind
> for anything other than shootin' huntin' or fishin' means you're not a
> true American (OK, I'm stereotyping here, and I enjoy a spot of
> huntin' and fishin' myself).
>
> Culture needs to change, not how we educate people.
>
> And at one time a HS diploma meant a hell of a lot more than it does
> now. When my father graduated from HS in 1950 (in Indiana), it was
> pretty significant.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:39 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
>> there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
>> his main theme was historical evidence that
>> in 1930 about 25
>> percent of all high school students
>> could do college work.
>>
>> he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
>> school students could do college work.
>>
>> in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
>> do college work.
>>
>> in 2012 about 25 percent of high school kids can
>> do college work, and we try to send 90 percent of
>> all students to college. =3DA0we even have remedial courses
>> so they can keep up. =3DA0we have tutors to help them
>> keep up. =3DA0and they come out of that experience with
>> about $125,000.00 in debt @9.9 percent interest.
>> that works out to be $950 a month for 16 years.
>>
>> quality tech schools can place all their students that
>> have skill. =3DA0am i missing something?
>> from: minnetonka, mn
>> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>> =3DA0clayart link: =3DA0http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Lee on sat 14 apr 12
I'm a firm believer in a liberal arts education being the foundation
for learning. It should be mandatory for everyone, before they begin
specialization.
Otherwise, you are simply pumping out specialist Drones. The types
corporations like to scoop up, because they have no sense of history
or what has gone on before.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Robert Harris on sat 14 apr 12
NNice idea, but it is well documented that mathematicians do all of
their best work before they're 40.
Research scientists. especially in the biological sciences rarely get
on to tenure track/career path before they're 35 as it is. Push it
back any further and we won't have anyone going in to research at all.
And frankly most scientists I know are better acquainted with
history, literature and art than students of those subjects are with
any science at all.
Just my 2c worth to defend my own position. Of course I'm biased...
And in terms of CEO hiring practices, one wonders how they took into
account biases due to the CEOs own background ....
I would also differentiated between scientists (as a mindset) and
those people who happpened to do a science major in college. In my
terms anyone who does extensive glaze development (e.g. line blends)
is a working scientist.
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:48 AM, Lee wrote:
> I'm a firm believer in a liberal arts education being the foundation
> for learning. =3DA0It should be mandatory for everyone, before they begin
> specialization.
>
>
> =3DA0Otherwise, you are simply pumping out specialist Drones. =3DA0The ty=
pes
> corporations like to scoop up, because they have no sense of history
> or what has gone on before.
>
>
> --
> =3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> =3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=
=3D97that is=3D
, "The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Greg Relaford on sat 14 apr 12
I am a huge fan of the idea that people should be trained to do work, if
that is what they want. Being trained, or retrained, in the course of
layoffs sounds great. Good idea. As someone who went through layoffs off
and on throughout the 1980's, I have to tell you...none of it was useful.
The retraining never focused on what we actually needed.
This trucking example is part of the same problem. Training in job related
programs has too often left the trainees with rote knowledge.
Parenthetically, this problem exists in the Tech Sector too.
Take a look at a really amazing book:
Catching Up Or Leading the Way: American Education in the Age of
Globalization by Yong
Zhaoao%22>
http://books.google.com/books/about/Catching_Up_Or_Leading_the_Way.html?id=
=3DyMaaj3Dcs7EC
This is one of the most important books on education published in the last
25 years. And it applies to every aspect of education today. Very
worthwhile read.
-GregR
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Margaret Flaherty
wrote:
> These are good observations...I heard a story on NPR about a company in
> Texas that had 200 openings for truck drivers and couldn't fill them
> because people did not have the training to qualify. Truck drivers need
> more than a driver's license in these times. The trucks have complicated
> computerized equipment that the drivers have to master.
>
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Steve Slatin > >wrote:
>
> > May I make a little trouble here, Mel?
> > (taking silence as assent)
> > Fair enough. And when I went to
> > college in 1968, the lowest level
> > of math offered at my school was
> > calculus. And all they offered us was
> > a B.A., it wasn't a science school.
> >
> > Many students who can (and do) excel
> > in college don't arrive at college ready
> > to do 'college work.' The fault isn't
> > in their high school or their familes or
> > their maturity or motivation in most cases,
> > but in some complex combination of all of
> > these. With some remedial education,
> > some of them do just fine. Not all
> > students who arrive unprepared remain
> > incapable of doing higher-level thinking
> > (and work).
> >
> > When there are jobs to be had --
> > especially 'family wage' jobs that do not
> > require 'college work' background, there's
> > no inherent problem. The 25
> > percent go to college, the others to not,
> > and everyone gets a job where they do
> > something that's adequately satisfying and
> > rewarding.
> >
> > We now live in a world where the 'family
> > wage' jobs are not available to those
> > without some advanced education. For
> > example, the machine operator jobs that
> > used to be available to HS grads (and
> > sometimes even HS dropouts) no longer
> > exist. CNC tool operator jobs are in
> > abundance, well-paid, and go begging.
> > And people with non-CNC backgrounds
> > can't get those jobs because they're not
> > qualified.
> >
> > They can't do the work.
> >
> > The work requires a level of training beyond
> > a HS diploma.
> >
> > And HS level trade schools don't prepare
> > students to that level. So we have a second
> > layer of post-HS education -- the equivalent
> > of the old technical track of HS. And it's
> > mostly at the community colleges, and a well-
> > run community college will offer a raft of
> > programs to prepare people to do various
> > things, including to do welding with different
> > gear (in my HS it was Oxy/Acetalene only)
> > and aviation engine maintenance, and CNC
> > machine operator, and various
> > types of medical/nursing programs where
> > there are real shortages of well-qualified
> > employees.
> >
> > A similar system exists in Germany. But the
> > government 'interferes' in Germany and makes
> > sure that the schools offer programs for jobs
> > that will be there when the students graduate.
> >
> > In the US, we allow people to imagine what
> > they want to be, and to arrange for education
> > and technical training that 'should' work
> > for that occupation. And NPR recently
> > mentioned that there are as many journalism
> > graduates in any given year as the total number
> > of professional journalists in the US all told.
> >
> > Those students will probably not ever earn
> > back their education's cost -- at least not in
> > their chosen field. But we favor freedom
> > in the US, and one aspect of that is the
> > freedom to make foolish choices.
> >
> > Maybe a given student shouldn't be admitted,
> > or shouldn't be allowed to waste funds on an
> > unlikely occupational choice or field of
> > study. But I'd hate to see the option --
> > the choice -- disappear.
> >
> > Steve Slatin --
> >
> >
> > N48.0886450
> > W123.1420482
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
> > his main theme was historical evidence that
> > in 1930 about 25
> > percent of all high school students
> > could do college work.
> >
> > he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
> > school students could do college work.
> >
> > in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
> > do college work.
> >
>
James Freeman on sat 14 apr 12
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Robert Harris wr=
ote:
And I used it's instead of its, which I am now kicking myself for,
especially after my earlier rant ....
Robert...
I employ "it's" as a possessive quite consciously, as an act of civil
disobedience. I am aware of the rule that implores and demands otherwise,
and I fervently disagree with it for reasons of both uniformity and
aesthetics. Fight the power! Join me in my little act of subversion!
Down with Strunk and White!
...James (the radical)
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Nefsigh@AOL.COM on sat 14 apr 12
"quality tech schools can place all their students that
have skill. am i missing something?"
Mel-- this statement isn't backed up by the facts or reality. So called
"Tech schools", such as ITT Tech and others A) cost vastly more than a gene=
ral
college and B) Do NOT place their students with anything close to a 100%
rate.. In fact, many of such "tech" schools are currently under
investigation and legislation is pending (which they are lobbying against)=
that will
force these schools to become accountable and to cease and desist the
practices related to admitting anyone and approving their loans, when they=
know
full well the "student" has no possibility to pay it back nor get a job in
the "field" chosen.
Additionally, when we speak of "tech" schools, I have to ask-What do we
mean? If we mean schools that teach the type of manufacturing skills that w=
ere
needed during the 50's and 60's--then indeed, these have to be considered
scams, for rarely are those "skills" needed anymore. Even in manufacturing=
,
the assembly line no longer needs highly skilled machinists, they need a
person who can push the buttons to run the robotics that took the place of
the person of the past.
If, on the other hand, we are teaching future interested workers the
necessary aspects of running a line, then of course, classes appropriate fo=
r
such jobs are good and important. However, as the employment picture and
figures indicate, fewer and fewer of these people are needed in manufactur=
ing
than ever before. Less and less American workers actually work at firms wh=
ere
something is "made" in the old sense.
While I am not disputing the figure of 25% of students being able to do
college work, I also have no evidence that the speaker had anything but a
point of view, perhaps informed by a biased view of whom should and should=
n't
be educated. Although I would agree, and support the argument that
universities and colleges have indeed begun the same process that the high=
schools
underwent many decades ago--that is, the "self esteem" promotions/passing =
of
classes. I knew I retired at the right time when I found out that after I
did, the university instituted a policy whereby a faculty member cannot
simply flunk a student for :cause"-i.e.-missing classes , failing tests, e=
tc.,
But must now provide a complete, written justification for everything the
student did to deserve that failure grade. This, of course, is in response
to the fears of being sued. The net result is a lot more "D's being given
instead of the deserved "F", as a "D" doesn't require any paperwork nor
justification. I guess the "D" is now the new "F".
Ok enuf ranting-TIme to go to the auction next door.
Cheers all
Lenny
In a message dated 4/14/2012 7:38:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
melpots2@VISI.COM writes:
there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
his main theme was historical evidence that
in 1930 about 25
percent of all high school students
could do college work.
he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
school students could do college work.
in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
do college work.
in 2012 about 25 percent of high school kids can
do college work, and we try to send 90 percent of
all students to college. we even have remedial courses
so they can keep up. we have tutors to help them
keep up. and they come out of that experience with
about $125,000.00 in debt @9.9 percent interest.
that works out to be $950 a month for 16 years.
quality tech schools can place all their students that
have skill. am i missing something?
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Lee on sat 14 apr 12
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Robert Harris wr=
=3D
ote:
> NNice idea, but it is well documented that mathematicians do all of
> their best work before they're 40.
They do their best "sheep work" maybe. Freethinking citizens need to
be well rounded.
It all comes down to values. Is money the only measure we go
by? Or, do we see education as a social investment?
That is where we have put the cart before the donkey. Our
education system has been reduced to serving corporations instead of
the best interests of society.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Greg Relaford on sat 14 apr 12
"... It all comes down to values. Is money the only measure we go by? Or,
do we see education as a social investment?"
This is really the heart of it. Treating education, at all levels, as a job
preparation prepares nobody well and undermines a democratic society.
Measuring education as 'value added' based on projected future income for a
teachers students..... The wrong question to ask.
The best teaching environment, whatever the subjects, turns out curious,
lifelong learners. Nothing less will prepare young people for tomorrow, and
tomorrows jobs. Or today, for that matter. And it's the best defence
against extremist 'solutions', bad science, misguided policies.
If you look at the best prep schools in the US, how many have learning
environments similar in any way to the typical public school today? How
many operate under similar policies and restrictions? Essentially none. How
many families of wealth and power send their kids to public schools? Same
answer.
The entire society, whatever background, is being undermined by this
deepening social trench. The trends in public education are like a backhoe
working day and night to make it worse.
People can, with best of intentions, do terrible things. In our lifetimes,
with largely the best of intent, terrible things have been done to
education in the US.
Greg Relaford
On Apr 14, 2012 8:56 AM, "Lee" wrote:
C Sullivan on sat 14 apr 12
In today's world, a college degree is the approx. equivalent of a 1960's
high school diploma.
Hugs
Chae
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 7:39 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
> his main theme was historical evidence that
> in 1930 about 25
> percent of all high school students
> could do college work.
>
> he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
> school students could do college work.
>
> in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
> do college work.
>
> in 2012 about 25 percent of high school kids can
> do college work, and we try to send 90 percent of
> all students to college. we even have remedial courses
> so they can keep up. we have tutors to help them
> keep up. and they come out of that experience with
> about $125,000.00 in debt @9.9 percent interest.
> that works out to be $950 a month for 16 years.
>
> quality tech schools can place all their students that
> have skill. am i missing something?
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
Steve Slatin on sat 14 apr 12
May I make a=3DA0 little trouble here, Mel?=3D0A(taking silence as assent) =
=3D0AF=3D
air enough.=3DA0 And when I went to =3D0Acollege in 1968, the lowest level=
=3D0Aof=3D
math offered at my school was =3D0Acalculus.=3DA0 And all they offered us =
was=3D
=3D0Aa B.A., it wasn't a science school.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AMany students who ca=
n (and d=3D
o) excel =3D0Ain college don't arrive at college ready =3D0Ato do 'college =
work=3D
.'=3DA0 The fault isn't=3D0Ain their high school or their familes or=3D0Ath=
eir ma=3D
turity or motivation in most cases, =3D0Abut in some complex combination of=
a=3D
ll of=3D0Athese.=3DA0 With some remedial education,=3D0Asome of them do jus=
t fine=3D
.=3DA0 Not all=3D0Astudents who arrive unprepared remain=3D0Aincapable of d=
oing h=3D
igher-level thinking=3D0A(and work).=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWhen there are jobs to b=
e had --=3D
=3D0Aespecially 'family wage' jobs that do not=3D0Arequire 'college work' =
back=3D
ground, there's =3D0Ano inherent problem.=3DA0 The 25 =3D0Apercent go to co=
llege,=3D
the others to not,=3D0Aand everyone gets a job where they do=3D0Asomething=
tha=3D
t's adequately satisfying and=3D0Arewarding.=3DA0 =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AWe now liv=
e in a wor=3D
ld where the 'family=3D0Awage' jobs are not available to those=3D0Awithout =
some=3D
advanced education.=3DA0 For=3D0Aexample, the machine operator jobs that=
=3D0Ause=3D
d to be available to HS grads (and=3D0Asometimes even HS dropouts) no longe=
r=3D
=3D0Aexist.=3DA0 CNC tool operator jobs are in=3D0Aabundance, well-paid, an=
d go b=3D
egging.=3D0AAnd people with non-CNC backgrounds=3D0Acan't get those jobs be=
caus=3D
e they're not=3D0Aqualified.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AThey can't do the work.=3D0A=3DA=
0=3D0AThe work=3D
requires a level of training beyond=3D0Aa HS diploma.=3DA0 =3D0A=3DA0=3D0A=
And HS lev=3D
el trade schools don't prepare=3D0Astudents to that level.=3DA0 So we have =
a se=3D
cond=3D0Alayer of post-HS education -- the equivalent=3D0Aof the old techni=
cal =3D
track of HS.=3DA0 And it's=3D0Amostly at the community colleges, and a well=
-=3D0A=3D
run community college will offer a raft of=3D0Aprograms to prepare people t=
o =3D
do various=3D0Athings, including to do welding with different=3D0Agear (in =
my H=3D
S it was Oxy/Acetalene only)=3D0Aand aviation engine maintenance, and CNC=
=3D0Am=3D
achine operator, and various=3D0Atypes of medical/nursing programs where=3D=
0Ath=3D
ere are real shortages of well-qualified=3D0Aemployees.=3D0A=3D0AA similar =
system=3D
exists in Germany.=3DA0 But the=3D0Agovernment 'interferes' in Germany and=
mak=3D
es=3D0Asure that the schools offer programs for jobs=3D0Athat will be there=
whe=3D
n the students graduate.=3D0A=3D0AIn the US, we allow people to imagine wha=
t=3D0A=3D
they want to be, and to arrange for education=3D0Aand technical training th=
at=3D
'should' work=3D0Afor that occupation.=3DA0 And NPR recently=3D0Amentioned=
that =3D
there are as many journalism=3D0Agraduates in any given year as the total n=
um=3D
ber=3D0Aof professional journalists in the US all told.=3D0A=3D0AThose stud=
ents w=3D
ill probably not ever earn=3D0Aback their education's cost -- at least not =
in=3D
=3D0Atheir chosen field.=3DA0 But we favor freedom=3D0Ain the US, and one a=
spect =3D
of that is the=3D0Afreedom to make foolish choices.=3D0A=3D0AMaybe a given =
studen=3D
t shouldn't be admitted,=3D0Aor shouldn't be allowed to waste funds on an=
=3D0Au=3D
nlikely occupational choice or field of=3D0Astudy.=3DA0 But I'd hate to see=
the=3D
option --=3D0Athe choice -- disappear.=3D0A=3D0ASteve Slatin -- =3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0AN48.088=3D
6450=3D0AW123.1420482=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0Ath=
ere was a =3D
speaker at hhs in about 1965.=3D0Ahis main theme was historical evidence th=
at=3D
=3D0Ain 1930 about 25=3D0Apercent of all high school students=3D0Acould do =
colleg=3D
e work.=3D0A=3D0Ahe also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high=3D0Asch=
ool st=3D
udents could do college work.=3D0A=3D0Ain 1995 about 25 percent of high sch=
ool =3D
kids could=3D0Ado college work.
Margaret Flaherty on sat 14 apr 12
These are good observations...I heard a story on NPR about a company in
Texas that had 200 openings for truck drivers and couldn't fill them
because people did not have the training to qualify. Truck drivers need
more than a driver's license in these times. The trucks have complicated
computerized equipment that the drivers have to master.
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Steve Slatin wrote=
:
> May I make a little trouble here, Mel?
> (taking silence as assent)
> Fair enough. And when I went to
> college in 1968, the lowest level
> of math offered at my school was
> calculus. And all they offered us was
> a B.A., it wasn't a science school.
>
> Many students who can (and do) excel
> in college don't arrive at college ready
> to do 'college work.' The fault isn't
> in their high school or their familes or
> their maturity or motivation in most cases,
> but in some complex combination of all of
> these. With some remedial education,
> some of them do just fine. Not all
> students who arrive unprepared remain
> incapable of doing higher-level thinking
> (and work).
>
> When there are jobs to be had --
> especially 'family wage' jobs that do not
> require 'college work' background, there's
> no inherent problem. The 25
> percent go to college, the others to not,
> and everyone gets a job where they do
> something that's adequately satisfying and
> rewarding.
>
> We now live in a world where the 'family
> wage' jobs are not available to those
> without some advanced education. For
> example, the machine operator jobs that
> used to be available to HS grads (and
> sometimes even HS dropouts) no longer
> exist. CNC tool operator jobs are in
> abundance, well-paid, and go begging.
> And people with non-CNC backgrounds
> can't get those jobs because they're not
> qualified.
>
> They can't do the work.
>
> The work requires a level of training beyond
> a HS diploma.
>
> And HS level trade schools don't prepare
> students to that level. So we have a second
> layer of post-HS education -- the equivalent
> of the old technical track of HS. And it's
> mostly at the community colleges, and a well-
> run community college will offer a raft of
> programs to prepare people to do various
> things, including to do welding with different
> gear (in my HS it was Oxy/Acetalene only)
> and aviation engine maintenance, and CNC
> machine operator, and various
> types of medical/nursing programs where
> there are real shortages of well-qualified
> employees.
>
> A similar system exists in Germany. But the
> government 'interferes' in Germany and makes
> sure that the schools offer programs for jobs
> that will be there when the students graduate.
>
> In the US, we allow people to imagine what
> they want to be, and to arrange for education
> and technical training that 'should' work
> for that occupation. And NPR recently
> mentioned that there are as many journalism
> graduates in any given year as the total number
> of professional journalists in the US all told.
>
> Those students will probably not ever earn
> back their education's cost -- at least not in
> their chosen field. But we favor freedom
> in the US, and one aspect of that is the
> freedom to make foolish choices.
>
> Maybe a given student shouldn't be admitted,
> or shouldn't be allowed to waste funds on an
> unlikely occupational choice or field of
> study. But I'd hate to see the option --
> the choice -- disappear.
>
> Steve Slatin --
>
>
> N48.0886450
> W123.1420482
>
>
> ________________________________
> there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
> his main theme was historical evidence that
> in 1930 about 25
> percent of all high school students
> could do college work.
>
> he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
> school students could do college work.
>
> in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
> do college work.
>
Chaeli Sullivan on sun 15 apr 12
Along that same line of thought, Margaret, i used to have a pilot's license=
.=3D
Enjoyed flying tremendously! Was in my son's plane not too long ago, but=
w=3D
hen he offered to turn the controls over to me, i had to refuse - too much =
m=3D
odern technology. With all the new gages, indicators, and hoopla, i couldn=
'=3D
t have flown that plane if my life had depended on it!
Got to laughing pretty hard as soon - cars with all their new automation an=
d=3D
accident-proof gadgets will be in the same category ! We won't be able to=
d=3D
rive them either without a college degree !
Hugs
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 14, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Margaret Flaherty wr=
o=3D
te:
> These are good observations...I heard a story on NPR about a company in
> Texas that had 200 openings for truck drivers and couldn't fill them
> because people did not have the training to qualify. Truck drivers need
> more than a driver's license in these times. The trucks have complicated
> computerized equipment that the drivers have to master.
>=3D20
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Steve Slatin wro=
t=3D
e:
>=3D20
>> May I make a little trouble here, Mel?
>> (taking silence as assent)
>> Fair enough. And when I went to
>> college in 1968, the lowest level
>> of math offered at my school was
>> calculus. And all they offered us was
>> a B.A., it wasn't a science school.
>>=3D20
>> Many students who can (and do) excel
>> in college don't arrive at college ready
>> to do 'college work.' The fault isn't
>> in their high school or their familes or
>> their maturity or motivation in most case
>> but in some complex combination of all of
>> these. With some remedial education,
>> some of them do just fine. Not all
>> students who arrive unprepared remain
>> incapable of doing higher-level thinking
>> (and work).
>>=3D20
>> When there are jobs to be had --
>> especially 'family wage' jobs that do not
>> require 'college work' background, there's
>> no inherent problem. The 25
>> percent go to college, the others to not,
>> and everyone gets a job where they do
>> something that's adequately satisfying and
>> rewarding.
>>=3D20
>> We now live in a world where the 'family
>> wage' jobs are not available to those
>> without some advanced education. For
>> example, the machine operator jobs that
>> used to be available to HS grads (and
>> sometimes even HS dropouts) no longer
>> exist. CNC tool operator jobs are in
>> abundance, well-paid, and go begging.
>> And people with non-CNC backgrounds
>> can't get those jobs because they're not
>> qualified.
>>=3D20
>> They can't do the work.
>>=3D20
>> The work requires a level of training beyond
>> a HS diploma.
>>=3D20
>> And HS level trade schools don't prepare
>> students to that level. So we have a second
>> layer of post-HS education -- the equivalent
>> of the old technical track of HS. And it's
>> mostly at the community colleges, and a well-
>> run community college will offer a raft of
>> programs to prepare people to do various
>> things, including to do welding with different
>> gear (in my HS it was Oxy/Acetalene only)
>> and aviation engine maintenance, and CNC
>> machine operator, and various
>> types of medical/nursing programs where
>> there are real shortages of well-qualified
>> employees.
>>=3D20
>> A similar system exists in Germany. But the
>> government 'interferes' in Germany and makes
>> sure that the schools offer programs for jobs
>> that will be there when the students graduate.
>>=3D20
>> In the US, we allow people to imagine what
>> they want to be, and to arrange for education
>> and technical training that 'should' work
>> for that occupation. And NPR recently
>> mentioned that there are as many journalism
>> graduates in any given year as the total number
>> of professional journalists in the US all told.
>>=3D20
>> Those students will probably not ever earn
>> back their education's cost -- at least not in
>> their chosen field. But we favor freedom
>> in the US, and one aspect of that is the
>> freedom to make foolish choices.
>>=3D20
>> Maybe a given student shouldn't be admitted,
>> or shouldn't be allowed to waste funds on an
>> unlikely occupational choice or field of
>> study. But I'd hate to see the option --
>> the choice -- disappear.
>>=3D20
>> Steve Slatin --
>>=3D20
>>=3D20
>> N48.0886450
>> W123.1420482
>>=3D20
>>=3D20
>> ________________________________
>> there was a speaker at hhs in about 1965.
>> his main theme was historical evidence that
>> in 1930 about 25
>> percent of all high school students
>> could do college work.
>>=3D20
>> he also said that in 1965 about 25 percent of high
>> school students could do college work.
>>=3D20
>> in 1995 about 25 percent of high school kids could
>> do college work.
>>=3D20
marci Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D on mon 16 apr 12
> Chaeli Sullivan said
>
>Got to laughing pretty hard as soon - cars with all their new automation a=
nd=3D
> accident-proof gadgets will be in the same category ! We won't be
> able to d=3D
>rive them either without a college degree !
>Hugs
---------------
Which is probably not that big a deal since we wont be able to
afford them either :O)
marci the chinapainter
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