James Freeman on fri 13 apr 12
The Fiscal Times has an article on some truly lightweight for-credit
courses which pass as "education" at actual accredited universities. They
lead off with a sociology course at the University of South Carolina which
explores a costumed person, I assume famous, named Lady Ga-Ga. If these
types of courses are considered "education", there is no hope for our
society! I cannot imagine why any caring parent would allow their child to
waste time and money on such a course, or how any guidance counselor would
do anything but discourage such things. For employers, the outlook is
grim. Imagine yourself a recruiter who hires a degreed individual,
believing them to be educated, only to find out that they studied Lady
Ga-Ga and "Geology in Movies"! Here is a link to the article:
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2011/06/20/Lady-Gaga-101.aspx=
?index=3D1
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Robert Harris on fri 13 apr 12
This is not exactly new. And recruiters have ways around this.
I graduated in 1996 with an honours degree in chemistry. In the months
preceding graduation I was bombarded with flyers and leaflets by all
sorts of different recruiters (including all the major accounting
firms - yeuch). My colleagues in the humanities (of all descriptions)
were hardly contacted at all. Even then recruiters recognised that
maths, sciences and engineering courses taught logical thinking and
problem solving skills that were extremely useful in the wider world.
This should not be the sole purview of the sciences; a good historian
needs many of the same skills (research, organisation, cause and
effect thinking etc), but unfortunately the humanities have let these
sort of requirements wither in recent years.
Incidentally the University I went to was, and is, ranked in the top
10 in every field in the UK (and top 5 in many). So even those people
doing humanities courses were hardly idiots.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM, James Freeman
wrote:
> The Fiscal Times has an article on some truly lightweight for-credit
> courses which pass as "education" at actual accredited universities. =3DA=
0T=3D
hey
> lead off with a sociology course at the University of South Carolina whic=
=3D
h
> explores a costumed person, I assume famous, named Lady Ga-Ga. =3DA0If th=
es=3D
e
> types of courses are considered "education", there is no hope for our
> society! =3DA0I cannot imagine why any caring parent would allow their ch=
il=3D
d to
> waste time and money on such a course, or how any guidance counselor woul=
=3D
d
> do anything but discourage such things. =3DA0For employers, the outlook i=
s
> grim. =3DA0Imagine yourself a recruiter who hires a degreed individual,
> believing them to be educated, only to find out that they studied Lady
> Ga-Ga and "Geology in Movies"! =3DA0Here is a link to the article:
> http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2011/06/20/Lady-Gaga-101.as=
=3D
px?index=3D3D1
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
C Sullivan on fri 13 apr 12
The answer is quite simple, James
College grads who are actually taught to -- think -- are much harder to
control by power hungry establishments ( i.e., government, corporations,
etc. Classes such as the one you describe produce "sheep". Much easier to
lead and control.
Hugs
Chae
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 8:45 AM, James Freeman m
> wrote:
> The Fiscal Times has an article on some truly lightweight for-credit
> courses which pass as "education" at actual accredited universities. The=
y
> lead off with a sociology course at the University of South Carolina whic=
h
> explores a costumed person, I assume famous, named Lady Ga-Ga. If these
> types of courses are considered "education", there is no hope for our
> society! I cannot imagine why any caring parent would allow their child =
to
> waste time and money on such a course, or how any guidance counselor woul=
d
> do anything but discourage such things. For employers, the outlook is
> grim. Imagine yourself a recruiter who hires a degreed individual,
> believing them to be educated, only to find out that they studied Lady
> Ga-Ga and "Geology in Movies"! Here is a link to the article:
>
> http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2011/06/20/Lady-Gaga-101.as=
px?index=3D1
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
>
James Freeman on fri 13 apr 12
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:52 PM, C Sullivan wrote:
The answer is quite simple, James
College grads who are actually taught to -- think -- are much harder to
control by power hungry establishments ( i.e., government, corporations,
etc. Classes such as the one you describe produce "sheep". Much easier to
lead and control.
Chae...
I used to run a large, evil, power-hungry corporation, 2200 employees, 200
offices. I never knowingly hired sheep. I purposely sought out the nuts,
the misfits, the oddballs. I hired quirky people who probably would not
have thrived at very structured firms. One of my best traders was a
philosophy major. My floor broker on the New York Stock Exchange was
completely illiterate and did not even attend college, but he knew his
ticker symbols and could tell "buy" tickets from "sell", and he knew how
the trading floor worked. I hired a trader when he was 17 years old and
had not even graduated high school yet, because the kid impressed the hell
out of me. He had to wait three months before he could start, which was
the day after his 18th birthday. I hired another trader, who later moved
to the retail side of the business, solely because he had the guts to call
me out for being bored at his interview. He was the last interview I had
scheduled during a recruiting trip to a Big Ten university, and I was beat,
bored, and worn out. I was just going through the motions with him, asking
random questions. He stopped mid sentence, looked at me, and said "I don't
have a chance here, do I?" I asked what he meant, to which he replied "You
don't want to be here. You've spent all day talking to an endless stream
of people who are all the same, and at this point you are not even really
listening to what I say." I paused, looked him in the eyes, and said
"You've got the job."
I don't know where the idea comes from that corporations want lame,
non-creative, "controllable" employees. Successful corporations want
successful, free-thinking, creative employees, at all levels. There are
very few jobs left in this country that are suitable for "sheep".
The sad truth is that today's college students seem, in large measure, not
to want to learn. They want easy classes, gourmet cafeterias, no classes
on Fridays, student unions with rock climbing walls and arcades... If a
professor runs a tough class, the students complain to the dean, enrollment
falls, and the professor gets "spoken to". Colleges and Universities are
businesses whose success depends on pleasing their customers, the
students. In days past, the customers demanded a thorough education.
Today they seem to demand 5 years of fun as they put in their time toward
their 4 year degree, with no grade below a 3.0.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Bonnie Hellman on fri 13 apr 12
IMHO the inability and disinterest in thinking starts way before college.
Certainly you can see it in many if not most HS students, and maybe even
middle school students or upper elementary.
It's not fatal and can be cured, but the individual had really want to thin=
k
and work at problem solving that isn't by rote.
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA LLC
PO Box 1210
392 McNulty Lane
Ouray, CO 81427
mou10ms@frontier.net
Phone: 970-325-4131
Verizon Cell: 412-607-4455
Fax: 970-325-0888
As required by United States Treasury Regulations, you should be aware that
this communication is not intended or written by the sender to be used, and
it cannot be used, by any recipient for the purpose of avoiding penalties
that may be imposed on the recipient under United States federal tax laws.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of James Freeman
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 1:55 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: OT: The dumbing down of the college curriculum
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:52 PM, C Sullivan wrote:
The answer is quite simple, James
College grads who are actually taught to -- think -- are much harder to
control by power hungry establishments ( i.e., government, corporations,
etc. Classes such as the one you describe produce "sheep". Much easier to
lead and control.
Chae...
I used to run a large, evil, power-hungry corporation, 2200 employees, 200
offices. I never knowingly hired sheep. I purposely sought out the nuts,
the misfits, the oddballs. I hired quirky people who probably would not
have thrived at very structured firms. One of my best traders was a
philosophy major. My floor broker on the New York Stock Exchange was
completely illiterate and did not even attend college, but he knew his
ticker symbols and could tell "buy" tickets from "sell", and he knew how th=
e
trading floor worked. I hired a trader when he was 17 years old and had no=
t
even graduated high school yet, because the kid impressed the hell out of
me. He had to wait three months before he could start, which was the day
after his 18th birthday. I hired another trader, who later moved to the
retail side of the business, solely because he had the guts to call me out
for being bored at his interview. He was the last interview I had schedule=
d
during a recruiting trip to a Big Ten university, and I was beat, bored, an=
d
worn out. I was just going through the motions with him, asking random
questions. He stopped mid sentence, looked at me, and said "I don't have a
chance here, do I?" I asked what he meant, to which he replied "You don't
want to be here. You've spent all day talking to an endless stream of
people who are all the same, and at this point you are not even really
listening to what I say." I paused, looked him in the eyes, and said
"You've got the job."
I don't know where the idea comes from that corporations want lame,
non-creative, "controllable" employees. Successful corporations want
successful, free-thinking, creative employees, at all levels. There are
very few jobs left in this country that are suitable for "sheep".
The sad truth is that today's college students seem, in large measure, not
to want to learn. They want easy classes, gourmet cafeterias, no classes o=
n
Fridays, student unions with rock climbing walls and arcades... If a
professor runs a tough class, the students complain to the dean, enrollment
falls, and the professor gets "spoken to". Colleges and Universities are
businesses whose success depends on pleasing their customers, the students.
In days past, the customers demanded a thorough education.
Today they seem to demand 5 years of fun as they put in their time toward
their 4 year degree, with no grade below a 3.0.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Jeff Longtin on fri 13 apr 12
In the 90's I managed a phone room for a local theater. My best caller was
a high school student who excelled in "debate".
(Heretofore I had no idea the culture that surrounded such things.)
After college he went on to work at an arbitrage firm on Wall Street.
He was the most polite kid you ever met and not an arrogant bone in his
body. I doubt many would realize the success he would become considering hi=
s
humble beginning.
take care
Jeff Longtin
Minneapolis
www.jefflongtin.etsy.com
Vince Pitelka on fri 13 apr 12
James Freeman wrote:
"The sad truth is that today's college students seem, in large measure, not
to want to learn. They want easy classes, gourmet cafeterias, no classes o=
n
Fridays, student unions with rock climbing walls and arcades... If a
professor runs a tough class, the students complain to the dean, enrollment
falls, and the professor gets "spoken to". Colleges and Universities are
businesses whose success depends on pleasing their customers, the students.
In days past, the customers demanded a thorough education. Today they seem
to demand 5 years of fun as they put in their time toward their 4 year
degree, with no grade below a 3.0."
Hi James -
I am not sure what college students you are referring to. I have never
encountered a college student like that, so I am wondering where your broad=
,
sweeping generalizations are coming from. I have been teaching at the
university-level for 25 years now, and college is still the best
mind-expanding deal in the world. Other than world travel, Peace Corps, th=
e
JET program, and some other possibilities (which most often appeal to
college grads!), college is still the very best way to ramp up to some sort
of mature, worldly, open-minded level of adulthood offering far more
possibilities than there ever would be without a college education.
Santorum called Obama a snob for encouraging college education for everyone=
.
That's just a reflection on Santorum, who is a certified moron. Sure, some
students fail to make the distinction between high-school and college at
first and fail to make the most of the opportunity, but don't be so quick t=
o
paint college students with such a broad brush. It's still the very best
deal around in terms of preparing for a rich and rewarding life, and it is
up to the individual college student to make the most of it. I guess we do
agree that some students are less prepared to do that, but there is an equa=
l
number of students who are motivated and inspired. Isn't that pretty much
the way it has always been?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Vince Pitelka on fri 13 apr 12
Chae Sullivan wrote:
"The answer is quite simple, James. College grads who are actually taught
to -- think -- are much harder to control by power hungry establishments (
i.e., government, corporations, etc. Classes such as the one you describe
produce "sheep". Much easier to lead and control."
Hi Chae -
I am trying to figure out whether you wrote the above with tongue firmly
implanted in cheek. If not, then I would say that it is a unadulterated
bullshit. So, having appreciated the things you have posted in the past, I
am going to assume that you probably did have tongue implanted in cheek.
Because otherwise it would be hard to imagine a more inaccurate assessment
of college curricula. It would be a truly absurd notion. I know you are
better than that.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
James Freeman on fri 13 apr 12
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Jeff Longtin wrote:
In the 90's I managed a phone room for a local theater. My best caller was
a high school student who excelled in "debate".
(Heretofore I had no idea the culture that surrounded such things.)
After college he went on to work at an arbitrage firm on Wall Street.
I once tried to hire a telemarketer who cold-called me at home one
evening. He was selling subscriptions to the New York Times, and I told
him I wasn't interested. He politely asked why, so I said "None of us here
can read". Without missing a beat, he replied "We have great pictures!"
On the spot, I offered him a job as a broker trainee.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
James Freeman on fri 13 apr 12
Wow, good thing politics aren't allowed on the list! LOL!
College makes little economic sense for many majors. When I was working in
a restaurant during high school, our bread delivery guy had all of his many
not-so-marketable degrees hanging in his bread truck. Having said that, I
have always maintained that every high school graduate, especially those
from small towns or disadvantaged areas, should go away to college or join
the military (not everyone is college material, and not everyone can afford
college) in order to learn of the possibilities that exist outside of their
cloistered environs, and in order to "grow up".
When I was hiring "professional" people, for the most part I insisted on a
college education. I did not expect these folks to have garnered much
useful knowledge from such an endeavor, but it did tell me that they were
at least able to stick to a project for 4 years. Many of my technical
people were ex-military (no college), as they had excellent skill sets and
an excellent work ethic.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
university-level for 25 years now, and college is still the best
> mind-expanding deal in the world. Other than world travel, Peace Corps,
> the
> JET program, and some other possibilities (which most often appeal to
> college grads!), college is still the very best way to ramp up to some so=
rt
> of mature, worldly, open-minded level of adulthood offering far more
> possibilities than there ever would be without a college education.
> Santorum called Obama a snob for encouraging college education for
> everyone.
> That's just a reflection on Santorum, who is a certified moron. Sure, so=
me
> students fail to make the distinction between high-school and college at
> first and fail to make the most of the opportunity, but don't be so quick
> to
> paint college students with such a broad brush. It's still the very best
> deal around in terms of preparing for a rich and rewarding life, and it i=
s
> up to the individual college student to make the most of it. I guess we =
do
> agree that some students are less prepared to do that, but there is an
> equal
> number of students who are motivated and inspired. Isn't that pretty much
> the way it has always been?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>
I have been teaching at the
Robert Harris on fri 13 apr 12
I have TA'd molecular biology classes. In a random selection of 60
students it is clear who is bright and worked hard, who is bright and
lazy (often the really bright kids are a bit bored), who is mediocre
and worked hard, mediocre and bored/lazy ... and all the rest.
With fact based courses where there really is a right, wrong, and
(sometimes) a really good answer, they still whine their heads off
when they don't get a "good" grade. And the Dean of students does
indeed come and have a little chat. Especially if you take points off
for being practically illiterate without a spell checker.
Unfortunately molecular biology IS pretty hard. You either comprehend
it, or you don't. If you don't, there really are no marks for effort.
Personally I don't think you should be allowed to graduate from High
School without being able to use their, there and they're or where and
were appropriately (or add up, but that's another kettle of fish).
Apparently I am in the minority however, and people feel that this is
monstrously unfair for those children with "learning difficulties".
This is somewhat of a salami problem. At what point do we draw the
line? If you keep slicing away the salami, pretty soon there is
nothing left.
In some respects, I believe that we need to accept that,
intellectually speaking, not everyone is born equal. For some people
college is not the right choice. That does not make them any less
worthwhile as people (and culture here in the US needs to change for
that to 'feel' true). To me universities should be places of higher
education, in the old fashioned sense, where there is serious
intellectual rigour being pursued. From this point of view, I suspect
that art schools should be separate from universities. (Perhaps a
heretical thing to say to you, Vince - however I offer the examples of
The Slade, and The Royal College, and Harrow (as I am most familiar
with the UK), as examples of when this does in fact work).
For other mind expanding curricula, there should be other
alternatives, open to all, perhaps ungraded, that can be embarked upon
at any time in life.
Well, sorry for the small rant ... but yes, there are students who
complain about courses being too hard.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Chae Sullivan wrote:
> "The answer is quite simple, James. =3DA0College grads who are actually t=
au=3D
ght
> to -- think -- are much harder to control by power hungry establishments =
=3D
(
> i.e., government, corporations, etc. =3DA0Classes such as the one you des=
cr=3D
ibe
> produce "sheep". =3DA0Much easier to lead and control."
>
> Hi Chae -
> I am trying to figure out whether you wrote the above with tongue firmly
> implanted in cheek. =3DA0If not, then I would say that it is a unadultera=
te=3D
d
> bullshit. =3DA0So, having appreciated the things you have posted in the p=
as=3D
t, I
> am going to assume that you probably did have tongue implanted in cheek.
> Because otherwise it would be hard to imagine a more inaccurate assessmen=
=3D
t
> of college curricula. =3DA0It would be a truly absurd notion. =3DA0I know=
you=3D
are
> better than that.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Nefsigh@AOL.COM on fri 13 apr 12
To All--
Having spent my entire life (I am now 63) in and around education and 45
years in higher education, 39 years as a professor at the university leve=
l,
I must say that this discussion has value and points of view from all
sides.
First, the difference we seem to see are the result of a number of changes
that have occurred. Before I discuss them some history regarding me and my
philosophical and educational bias-
It has always been my position that education of ANY kind, but more
specifically the 4/5 year college education, has been designed to make the
student a better human being. When I left for Arizona State from NJ in 196=
6, my
parents gave me 100$ and the best advice a young man could get-and even th=
en
I knew the importance- My father, an engineer, did NOT pressure me to
follow in his footsteps; never once mentioned a career and only stated one
thing: "You job is to become an educated man". WOW! Think about that-- He
understood that learning makes us better people, more able to deal with th=
e life
situations that are always in flux and better able to solve the world's
problems. That advice forever shaped how I taught and saw the purpose of
higher education.
Second, today's college student versus the student of 35 years ago is that
they often start out very interested in getting in, getting done and
getting out. With the pressure coming MOSTLY form their parents and politi=
cal
entities that think education is nothing more than a step in the ladder or
that college is a "business" and the student a "consumer". They have becom=
e
somewhat convinced that a "college education" is the ticket to a job. Sinc=
e
this fact is rarely the case of reality, I often took it upon myself to
inform students that they will most likely change "jobs" at least 7 times =
in
their work life and change career focus and job emphasis almost as often,
therefore they needed to take a broader educational approach. I also remin=
ded
them that this was most likely their ONLY time around, and that NOW was
the time to take those courses/subjects that attracted their interest, as
very, very few students return to college to take the classes they skipped=
.
Third, while many students "seem" to shy away from more demanding courses,
I successfully managed to show students that those individuals who had the
broadest educational background, more often then not, were the ones
companies were looking to hire. There was a study done a few years back (I=
believe
by the Carnegie Institute although I may be wrong on the source) where
they interviewed Fortune 500 company CEO's and one of the questions posed =
was
as follows" "What type of graduate do you look for when you are hiring?"
The overwhelming answer was Liberal Arts graduates. They further explained
that the LA graduate was more flexible and resourceful than someone "train=
ed"
in a narrow field--such as an engineer. (their example, not mine). And,
considering they would be requiring the new hire to at some point complete=
ly
shift focus and direction, they believed (and I agree) that the LA
graduate adjusted better to the new work environment than the trained pers=
on.
Thus, many, many of my students graduated with a broad background in
literature, languages, the Arts ( History and hands on) as well as work in=
the
sciences; making them not only more "marketable" but also better educated =
and
more likely to continue learning for the joy of learning.
Last, (for now), it is our obligation as educators and informed citizens to
challenge others when they demean, denounce or seek to de-fund
education-regardless of the level. We have an obligation to not only be am=
bassadors
of our institutions, but to be out spoken at public events and forums wher=
e
education is being discussed or being evaluated. Far to often individuals
with non educational motives and occasionally those without higher educati=
on
are in positions to make major decisions regarding the future of the
schools,teachers and the educational content. It is our responsibility to b=
e the
voice of reason as well as the voice of advocacy for our students and our
futures.
"Without art, we have no culture"
"Without culture, we have no civilization"...Lenny Dowhie
In a message dated 4/13/2012 6:41:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET writes:
James Freeman wrote:
"The sad truth is that today's college students seem, in large measure, no=
t
to want to learn. They want easy classes, gourmet cafeterias, no classes
on
Fridays, student unions with rock climbing walls and arcades... If a
professor runs a tough class, the students complain to the dean, enrollmen=
t
falls, and the professor gets "spoken to". Colleges and Universities are
businesses whose success depends on pleasing their customers, the students=
.
In days past, the customers demanded a thorough education. Today they seem
to demand 5 years of fun as they put in their time toward their 4 year
degree, with no grade below a 3.0."
Hi James -
I am not sure what college students you are referring to. I have never
encountered a college student like that, so I am wondering where your
broad,
sweeping generalizations are coming from. I have been teaching at the
university-level for 25 years now, and college is still the best
mind-expanding deal in the world. Other than world travel, Peace Corps,
the
JET program, and some other possibilities (which most often appeal to
college grads!), college is still the very best way to ramp up to some sor=
t
of mature, worldly, open-minded level of adulthood offering far more
possibilities than there ever would be without a college education.
Santorum called Obama a snob for encouraging college education for
everyone.
That's just a reflection on Santorum, who is a certified moron. Sure, som=
e
students fail to make the distinction between high-school and college at
first and fail to make the most of the opportunity, but don't be so quick
to
paint college students with such a broad brush. It's still the very best
deal around in terms of preparing for a rich and rewarding life, and it is
up to the individual college student to make the most of it. I guess we
do
agree that some students are less prepared to do that, but there is an
equal
number of students who are motivated and inspired. Isn't that pretty much
the way it has always been?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Steve Mills on sat 14 apr 12
On 14 Apr 2012, at 01:35, Robert Harris wrote:
> =3D46rom this point of view, I suspect
> that art schools should be separate from universities. (Perhaps a
> heretical thing to say to you, Vince - however I offer the examples of
> The Slade, and The Royal College, and Harrow (as I am most familiar
> with the UK), as examples of when this does in fact work).
>=3D20
> For other mind expanding curricula, there should be other
> alternatives, open to all, perhaps ungraded, that can be embarked upon
> at any time in life.
>=3D20
Interesting point.=3D20
When I went to Art School back in the late '50s the only qualification need=
e=3D
d for entry was showing some artistic ability.=3D20
This allowed people like myself with a very poor (wartime) education some c=
h=3D
ance to prove themselves My best friend was in the same league as I, and =
s=3D
ubsequently went on to create one of the best Commercial Art Studios in UK.
Not long after we left college the Art School circuit, clamouring for great=
e=3D
r status, insisted on good grade academic achievement as a prerequesite for=
e=3D
ntry, which would have "knocked out" most of my "Year" so that they could o=
f=3D
fer University Degree level qualifications, with strings of letters after y=
o=3D
ur name et al.=3D20
Now I feel the current insistence on a "College Degree" come what may is ac=
t=3D
ually disadvantaging the youth of today, and has also sounded the death kne=
l=3D
l of purely practical based courses.=3D20
We need well trained Artisans these days, and there are comparativly few of=
t=3D
hem about!
By the way the Harrow Studio Potters course is closing down this year, kill=
e=3D
d off by the University of Westminster who owned it. The Chancellor of whic=
h=3D
establishment famously saying: "The trouble with clay is you can't put it=
o=3D
n a memory stick!"
Steve M
>=3D20
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my iPod=3D
Greg Relaford on sat 14 apr 12
First, let me say that I agree with much if not all Vince and Lenny have
said. I was over hasty and brief in my previous comment.
My off-list comment to Chae was:
"It's not so much cynical as aware of the layers of conflicting interests
and their ramifications. It's not so conscious by anyone involved, or it
would be unworkable. Still, people born to certain families assume they
will enter a position of power and influence, and while they certainly
(often, not always) work hard for what they achieve....it would be a heck
of lot harder if they didn't have that barely conscious assumption, let
alone all that goes with having been 'rich and powerful at birth.' And
then there is everyone else. Almost everything happening to education in
this country flows from this situation, in my opinion. Not black and
white, but it sure is a powerful feedback loop.
This sort of thing requires some buy-in by most of the participants. Once
you step back from the buy-in, you have a hard time reformulating the
world...which is where all the various -.ism's usually step in with
'solutions'; like navigating rapids in a paper boat. Taking everything
with the proverbial grain of salt is where I've settled....maybe that IS
cynicism!"
I just watched part of a DVD on why Finland is one of the top education
centers in the world. Check out:
http://www.2mm.typepad.com/
For me, the educators and the departments they belong to are not 'the
enemy.' I think the 'know nothing crowd', related to Santorum, are viper
poison (apologies to snakes.)
As many have said, not all should go to a 4 year school after HS. Some
should go to a 'trade school.' However, nearly everyone _could_ be more
than that as a person. Lowering our personal standards...'I will be "only"
a skilled laborer' is a small suicide, and poison to society.
I attended The Evergreen State College, in Olympia, WA. The urban myth is
that it is a place of flaky degrees, flimsy minds. Hardly so. Many of the
people I went to class with were brilliant. Many were vets. We all worked
hard. Nobody got 'a pass.'
The outlier classes, real or myth, are a smokescreen. The bottom line is
that there is a push to make education in the US a place of restriction and
lost opportunity. Its's a push, however unconscious, to control people.
To maintain a status quo.
Lady Gaga isn't the problem, it's teaching to a test.
James Freeman on sat 14 apr 12
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:30 PM, wrote:
Having spent my entire life (I am now 63) in and around education and 45
years in higher education, 39 years as a professor at the university
level,
I must say that this discussion has value and points of view from all
sides.
Lenny (and Vince)...
It is very interesting to compare the views of those within academe to
those without. We may be seeing a living example of parable of the blind
men and the elephant. We tend to see the world through the prism of our
own experience.
Like you, when I was growing up, the question was never "Are you going to
college?", but rather "Which college are you going to?" Like in most
immigrant families from the early 1900s, education, though not necessarily
formalized academic higher education, was always a goal, and in my family
was a high priority. There was never any pressure, only an expectation,
and chosen major course of study was not an issue. Hell, I was an art
major! My father was an art major (medical illustration) before leaving
college to join the Navy during the Korean War, and ended up learning a
highly skilled trade (which incorporated and indeed required his artistic
skills) while in the service.
Though I can speak only for myself, I have personally reviewed thousands of
resumes, personally interviewed in excess of 1000 job candidates, and
personally hired at least a couple hundred people. I partially agree with
your CEO (CEOs of large corporations do not typically interview or hire
employees, except at the very highest levels, so these unsourced comments
must be taken with a huge grain of salt), if one is speaking of
administrative or support or sales careers. The truth is, for such
positions, one's actual major in college is largely irrelevant, and a
liberal arts major is indeed just as likely to succeed as a general
business major. For most other positions, however, this seems not to be
the case. I never hired an entry level accountant, for example, who did
not have an accounting degree, nor an entry level analyst who did not have
a finance degree. No one today hires entry level engineers who do not have
engineering degrees, nor entry level software developers who do not have
computer science degrees. All technical and specialized positions, which
other than sales seems to be where the favorable career prospects now lay,
tend to require a specialized degree, or equivalent job experience (often
obtained in the military).
I think the problems arose when the traditional role of the university
began to shift. In times past, the university served precisely the role
you cite, that of creating well-rounded, educated and educable members of
society. Such education, as valuable as it is, was, and seems to remain,
largely a luxury. For others, the path was trade schools (art included) or
apprenticeship (formal or informal). As our society and economy evolved,
the demands of the non-generalist careers increased profoundly, to the
point that universities took on the role of very high level, very
specialized trade schools. Thus, universities now serve two masters, if
you will. There is still demand for generalized study of the liberal arts,
though the vast majority seem to now view such courses (rightly or wrongly)
as mere adjuncts to their more technical and specialized "career" courses.
Such courses have now become part of the "core curriculum", the stuff which
students are "forced" to take. Evidence of this can be found by perusing
most any recent graduate's resume, supported by the many "how to write a
resume" books and articles, wherein one cites both his or her overall GPA
(say 3.2) as well as their major GPA (say 3.8), the message being "I am
really good at the stuff that is relevant to the job, but did not really
care about the other stuff I was forced to take, which dragged down my
grades". I am not arguing that this is a good state of affairs, only that
it exists.
One of my intellectual heroes, one of the four people I want to be when I
grow up, is Albert Jay Nock. Among other things, he was a prominent
educational theorist. As a professional educator, you have likely read his
influential work. If not, you may enjoy his autobiography, "Memoirs of a
Superfluous Man". If you are brave, read his 1932 "Theory of Education in
the United States". If you are very brave, read his recently published
collection of essays from that period, entitled "On the Disadvantages of
Being Educated, and Other Essays*"*. (Note to Phil and Cheali: You will
love this guy!)
Great discussion. Interesting and divergent points of view.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Arnold Howard on mon 16 apr 12
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:52 PM, C Sullivan wrote:
> The answer is quite simple, James
> College grads who are actually taught to -- think -- are much harder to
> control by power hungry establishments ( i.e., government, corporations,
> etc.
I've had only one job where I was expected to follow orders without
thinking. At all the other jobs I've ever held, suggestions were
welcomed. Chae might be referring to large bureaucracies that follow
systems.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
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