James Freeman on fri 22 jun 12
Bankrate Monitor recently ran an article entitled "Five Graduate Degrees
that Don't Pay Off". Listed at number 1 is a Master of Fine Art degree.
Here's what they said:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Students can obtain Master of Fine Arts, or MFA, degrees in disciplines
including studio arts, creative writing, the performing arts and art
criticism. Tuition costs vary, but at New York University's Tisch School of
the Arts, for instance, students can expect to pay more than $22,000 per
term, plus the cost of housing, course books and other expenses.
That investment isn't likely to pay off: The Georgetown study saw just a 3%
boost in income potential for studio arts MFA graduates.
Kristen Harris, owner of Portfolio Creative, a staffing agency in Columbus,
Ohio, says her recruiting clients always favor candidates with relevant
experience and work samples over those with graduate arts degrees. "It's
hard to get that first work opportunity if you don't have that education
and training, but after that, it's your portfolio and experience that
speaks louder than your degree."
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Note that they are not talking about all the wonderful intangible growth
and blossoming of your art which an MFA course of study may provide, only
that such growth and blossoming doesn't pay off financially in terms of
return on the money we invest in the degree. The article does not directly
address the fact that a college teaching position is largely closed to you
without an MFA, but the wages of such work and the scarcity of such jobs
did figure into the Georgetown study.
We should not feel too bad. A law degree from any of the lower tier
schools also does not pay off, and a Masters in Computer Engineering barely
pays off.
No real point or agenda here; just an interesting tidbit I ran across in my
peripatetic reading this evening.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
JRodgers on sat 23 jun 12
James,
Most times, some schooling beyond high school can help - and often does
- you get you an entry level job. But after that - it's the combination
of your work experience and your own effort that raises your income. I
obtained a college degree and became a teacher, later I acquired an
airline transport pilots license and an aircraft mechanics license and
flew airplanes in the Alaska Bush, and even later I worked for myself.
In all three categories I made money not possible without the training.
They were door openers, nothing more really. The most money I ever made
- and lost - was working for myself. There is no security any more in
working a job based on degrees and certificates. Those jobs can go away
in a heartbeat. It happened repeatedly over the years of my working
life. And even being self employed and making more money - that can
disappear too. Changes in the market place can kill a business.
Recessions - as we all know - can kill a business. Weird and strange
happenings and events can kill a business. You can lose it all. But
never ever let these kind of events send you mentally crashing down in
flames. That scenario is not worth it. One must re-evaluate what is of
real value in ones life and go from there. Some people lose fortunes and
want to commit suicide. Other lose fortunes and simply knock the dust
off and start again. But the ability to do that has everything to do
with ones values. If one simply cannot live without that new Camero,
then one is in serious trouble. Again - values. AS for the degrees -
again it's about values. If one is trying to use the degree to get in
the door - it may not happen. Then what? Money on the investment lost?
Perhaps - but ones values will determine failure or success with the
degree. One thing Mayor Mel said once that really struck me, and with
which I wholly concur - to the effect "If you are over 50 don't waste
your time on a degree curriculum. Just pick and choose some classes of
interest". Saves a lot of money. For the younger set - think hard about
the pursuit of that degree. I don't discourage it - but the time and
effort might be better spent with a different approach for the purposes
of having a livelyhood. Build yourself a broad educational base - a
combination of academic and craft skills (and that could pottery or even
aircraft or auto mechanic skills) if need be - when one lilypad sinks
- you are able to jump to another without to much disruption.
Regards,
John
On 6/22/2012 6:52 PM, James Freeman wrote:
> "Five Graduate Degrees
> that Don't Pay Off". Listed at number 1 is a Master of Fine Art degree.
James Freeman on sat 23 jun 12
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
All good points, and all true, but apparently what the author did not know
and what is still true is that anyone willing to relocate anywhere for an
MFA can research universities and find the ones that have the best record o=
f
providing teaching assistantships and tuition waivers, making a graduate
degree virtually free.
If you want to get a tenure-track teaching job in academia, you absolutely
must have the terminal degree in your field to even be considered. Outside
of academia, experience and the actual work count for far more.
Vince...
I quite agree that if one can obtain a free or largely free MFA, and has
the time to pursue it, then it is pretty much a no-brainer. Likewise if
one desires the degree for enrichment purposes and can afford to pay for
it. The authors merely pointed out that on average it just does not pay
off financially. The Georgetown study cited in the article considered not
only the extra pay that a graduate degree can earn you, but also the
likelihood that one could, in fact, obtain the job that provided that extra
pay. For every MFA who obtains a tenure track teaching position, there are
probably a hundred who desire such a position but were unable to obtain
one, and this scarcity factored into the equation. And again, they were
only discussing whether the degree would pay off financially, not in terms
of personal enrichment.
The study contrasts majors such as medicine, where a person with an
advanced degree earns on average 190% more over a lifetime than does one
possessed of an undergraduate pre-med degree, against such fields as studio
art and computer engineering, where the economic advantage of the advanced
degree is very small, and not enough to justify the expense from a strictly
financial perspective. The MFA in studio art provides on average only a 3%
increase in earnings over that of an undergrad degree, and that factors in
those who were able to land a tenure-track teaching job. Their point was
not that one should not pursue such financially less promising fields, but
only that one should know the likely outcome before diving in.
Here is a link to the Georgetown study. While it is full of fascinating
data, it provides only the "what", and does not delve into the "why" in any
meaningful way. As such, it provides fodder for many interesting
discussions and avenues of research:
http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/whatsitworth-complete.pdf
The section on art degrees begins on page 52 of the pdf if you wish to jump
straight to it, though one should read the introductory notes too.
Here is a link to the Bankrate article which pointed me to this study:
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/college-finance/graduate-degrees-dont-pay-o=
ff.aspx#slide=3D1
One interesting tidbit: Only 18% of studio art majors end up working
somewhere in the arts. Only 8% end up working somewhere in education, and
many of these jobs will be studio techs, adjunct faculty, or various jobs
at an educational institution that have nothing to do with art or
teaching. 10% end up in sales, 10% in management, and 12% doing office
work.
As an aside, I do know of one full professor of art at a major university
who possesses neither an MFA nor a BA in art. In fact, he has no graduate
degree at all, and his undergrad is in English literature. During a
several days long email discussion a few years ago which began as a casual
note about the tai chi tu (the "yin & yang" symbol), he challenged me to
create a sculptural piece that addressed the concept of yin and yang
without employing the actual yin and yang symbol, which he contends is the
finest example of logo design in the history of the world. This is a much
more challenging proposition than it may appear to be, and I was never able
to resolve it in a way with which I was satisfied.
Off to mow my weeds. Enjoy your day.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Vince Pitelka on sat 23 jun 12
James Freeman wrote about an article entitled "Five Graduate Degrees that
Don't Pay Off". Listed at number 1 is a Master of Fine Art degree. He
said:
Here's what they said:
"Note that they are not talking about all the wonderful intangible growth
and blossoming of your art which an MFA course of study may provide, only
that such growth and blossoming doesn't pay off financially in terms of
return on the money we invest in the degree. The article does not directly
address the fact that a college teaching position is largely closed to you
without an MFA, but the wages of such work and the scarcity of such jobs di=
d
figure into the Georgetown study."
Hi James -
All good points, and all true, but apparently what the author did not know
and what is still true is that anyone willing to relocate anywhere for an
MFA can research universities and find the ones that have the best record o=
f
providing teaching assistantships and tuition waivers, making a graduate
degree virtually free. When my wife and I applied to grad school in the mi=
d
80s we selected ten schools that all had good records of providing such
financial aid for grad students. UMass-Amherst offered us both tuition
waivers and teaching assistantships, me in the MFA program in ceramics and
Linda in the doctoral program in American History. We completed grad school
with very little debt, and both secured university teaching positions that
we love. No bragging there, just the reality of what anyone can do if they
are determined. Granted that funding is not quite so accessible or generou=
s
these days, but I have had students in recent years go on to grad school an=
d
get through it largely on tuition waivers and teaching assistantships with
very little debt. And of course the fundamental reality is that the MFA
still represents the highest professional-level degree in studio arts.
You quote the article saying:
"Kristen Harris, owner of Portfolio Creative, a staffing agency in Columbus=
,
Ohio, says her recruiting clients always favor candidates with relevant
experience and work samples over those with graduate arts degrees. "It's
hard to get that first work opportunity if you don't have that education an=
d
training, but after that, it's your portfolio and experience that speaks
louder than your degree."
As I am sure you will agree, James, that represents a classic "WELL DUH!"
statement. Their inclusion of that statement makes me question the whole
survey, because the same could be said about absolutely any field of study.
If you want to get a tenure-track teaching job in academia, you absolutely
must have the terminal degree in your field to even be considered. Outside
of academia, experience and the actual work count for far more. In
academia, once you have a tenure-track job, the experience and actual work
count for everything in advancing to a better job or in securing tenure and
promotion.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Mayssan Farra on sat 23 jun 12
This is only about the yin/yang.
I think your cu=3D
Hello James:=3D0A=3D0AThis is only about the yin/yang. =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AI thi=
nk your cu=3D
ps that form a profile of a head in between address the concept perfectly. =
=3D
black/white solid/space volume/silhouette.=3D0A=3D0AJust my opinion:)=3D0A=
=3D0A=3DA0=3D
=3D0AMayssan Shora Farra=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://clayette.blogspot.com=3D0A=3D0A=3D=
0A=3D0A>______=3D
__________________________=3D0A>=3D0A>As an aside, I do know of one full pr=
ofes=3D
sor of art at a major university=3D0A>who possesses neither an MFA nor a BA=
i=3D
n art.=3DA0 In fact, he has no graduate=3D0A>degree at all, and his undergr=
ad i=3D
s in English literature.=3DA0 During a=3D0A>several days long email discuss=
ion =3D
a few years ago which began as a casual=3D0A>note about the tai chi tu (the=
"=3D
yin & yang" symbol), he challenged me to=3D0A>create a sculptural piece tha=
t =3D
addressed the concept of yin and yang=3D0A>without employing the actual yin=
a=3D
nd yang symbol, which he contends is the=3D0A>finest example of logo design=
i=3D
n the history of the world.=3DA0 This is a much=3D0A>more challenging propo=
siti=3D
on than it may appear to be, and I was never able=3D0A>to resolve it in a w=
ay=3D
with which I was satisfied.=3D0A>=3D0A>Off to mow my weeds.=3DA0 Enjoy you=
r day.=3D
=3D0A>=3D0A>...James=3D0A>=3D0A>James Freeman=3D0A>=3D0A>"Talk sense to a f=
ool, and he =3D
calls you foolish."=3D0A>-Euripides=3D0A>=3D0A>http://www.jamesfreemanstudi=
o.com=3D
=3D0A>http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/=3D0A>http://www.jame=
sfre=3D
emanstudio.com/resources=3D0A>=3D0A>=3D0A>
Randall Moody on sun 24 jun 12
I personally believe that the study should be explicit in saying that they
are looking solely at monetary benefits and not in any way other benefits.
I know a good many lawyers who, while all have money, are simply not happy
overall with their lives and are looking to retirement so that they can
pursue what they would really like to do. The same goes with many of the
physicians I know. They have money and social standing but are stressed
beyond belief.
The study is a study in what is, in my opinion one of the least important
things in life: how much money can you earn.
BTW, anyone know of any job openings in the next year or so? (sort of
kidding)
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Monica Wright on sun 24 jun 12
Jumping in late here... As a teacher one of the ways that can move up on a =
pay scale is through continuing education of some kind. I am in the proces=
s of obtaining my MFA degree and was lucky (extremely) enough to be attendi=
ng an institution (Private) that offers scholarships to full time teachers/=
staff of local schools. The scholarship accounts for 1/2 tuition. On top =
of that my school district will reimburse me roughly $280 per credit hour f=
or tuition. That comes out to me paying around $200 per 3hr class, or... $=
6000 for my MFA. At 39 years old I have come to the sad realization that I=
will never get a teaching position outside of an occasional night class at=
the local community college. When finished I will be 41 years old and too=
smart to give up my current salary/benefits for a residency -although it w=
ould be something I would love.
Dreams are sometimes for the young (and stupid/naive). MFA's are in ma=
ny ways just pumped out into society for really no reason other than to giv=
e art departments jobs. I'm not sure if this is right or wrong because=
it is true of much of higher ed. 120 credit hr for an undergraduate degre=
e could easily be dropped down to 90hrs or less. I don't need a class =
in world history, American literature, or botany. Those are things that sh=
ould be covered in high school, but that is a whole other topic. My point =
is the same as a few others -hundreds of graduates every year with only a h=
andful of jobs. The students need to at least be aware of the realities. =
But... They are usually naive. I know I was at 22-24 years old.
James Freeman on sun 24 jun 12
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 4:04 PM, John Britt wro=
te:
Don't get wild James. Firing unattended is Extreme Ceramics. You need a
parental signature to do that!
John...
I like to live life on the edge! Once, I went swimming right after eating!
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
John Britt on sun 24 jun 12
Don't get wild James. Firing unattended is Extreme Ceramics. You need a
parental signature to do that!
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 3:45 PM, James Freeman m
> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM, John Britt w=
rote:
>
> Academia is SELLING degrees so they put the best spin on it. Without
> students they would loose their jobs. So they don't really want to
> mention that is it kinda like the sales pitch for the lottery. "You can't
> win
> if you don't have a ticket." or "Some one has to win." Get a degree and
> you too could get a job in academia.
>
> The part you don't hear in the application process, or I have never heard=
,
> is that there are fewer and fewer jobs
>
>
>
>
> John, others...
>
> Job in academia:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GXoO2sxga24ExoSGTnM73OTR1xt0dmxYs6nuJ=
wYMn6U/edit
>
> My own son is an art major, so this topic hits close to home. You can se=
e
> some of his illustrations and concept sketches here, if you wish:
> http://justinfreeman.tumblr.com/
> He does fine art too, but knows there is pretty much no way to make a
> living with that.
> I especially like the Bart Simpson, the second Garfield, and of course th=
e
> cigar smoking T-Rex driving the sports car! The Kandi Kids drawing is fo=
r
> the cover of the upcoming GirlStep EP. It's dubstep, not music, but you
> can hear some here if you are brave:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/girlstepofficial
> If you are REALLY brave, listen to this one:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5KYS9SpvxsE
> It's her dubstep remix of one of my other son's songs. Warning: Naughty
> language!
>
> Just some random diversion on this lazy day. Off to re-glaze a piece,
> then let it fire unattended! Take care.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
>
>
--
Regards,
John
AWESOME VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/johnbrittpottery
AWESOME BLOG: http://ncclayclub.blogspot.com
WEBPAGE: www.johnbrittpottery.com
James Freeman on sun 24 jun 12
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM, John Britt wro=
te:
Academia is SELLING degrees so they put the best spin on it. Without
students they would loose their jobs. So they don't really want to
mention that is it kinda like the sales pitch for the lottery. "You can't
win
if you don't have a ticket." or "Some one has to win." Get a degree and
you too could get a job in academia.
The part you don't hear in the application process, or I have never heard,
is that there are fewer and fewer jobs
John, others...
Job in academia:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GXoO2sxga24ExoSGTnM73OTR1xt0dmxYs6nuJwY=
Mn6U/edit
My own son is an art major, so this topic hits close to home. You can see
some of his illustrations and concept sketches here, if you wish:
http://justinfreeman.tumblr.com/
He does fine art too, but knows there is pretty much no way to make a
living with that.
I especially like the Bart Simpson, the second Garfield, and of course the
cigar smoking T-Rex driving the sports car! The Kandi Kids drawing is for
the cover of the upcoming GirlStep EP. It's dubstep, not music, but you
can hear some here if you are brave:
http://www.youtube.com/user/girlstepofficial
If you are REALLY brave, listen to this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5KYS9SpvxsE
It's her dubstep remix of one of my other son's songs. Warning: Naughty
language!
Just some random diversion on this lazy day. Off to re-glaze a piece, then
let it fire unattended! Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
John Britt on sun 24 jun 12
Hey Vince and James,
Nice topic. I will agree that to get a teaching job in academia you=3D20
definitely need an MFA, and most of the time (my experience) you also=3D20
need an MFA to be an adjunct. They like terminal degrees to make the=3D20
ratio look good even at Community Colleges.
Academia is SELLING degrees so they put the best spin on it. Without=3D20
students they would loose their jobs. So they don't really want to=3D20
mention that is it kinda like the sales pitch for the lottery. "You can't=
=3D
win=3D20
if you don't have a ticket." or "Some one has to win." Get a degree and=3D2=
0=3D
you too could get a job in academia.
The part you don't hear in the application process, or I have never heard=
=3D
,=3D20
is that there are fewer and fewer jobs because people quit and they hire=3D=
20=3D
adjuncts or close the program. Professors stay as long as possible in=3D20
their jobs. And the competition is outrageous because they have been=3D20
pumping our MFA's for decades and they are competing for the same 10=3D20
positions.=3D20
Students also may not know that you have (or they generally do) to=3D20
work in residencies after a BFA to get experience and then get the MFA=3D20=
=3D
and then work in residencies for several years, get some one year=3D20
teaching positions, then maybe teach at a small rural college (say in=3D20
Alpine TX) in the middle of nowhere (BFE) and then land a job.
This all costs money - i.e. to live while you are in residency. Some pay=3D=
20=3D
but very few and some even CHARGE you to be in the residency. The MFA=3D20
scam has many spokes!
And there are a scant few MFA's that are "free" meaning tuition waiver or=
=3D
=3D20
TA, etc. But you still pay for housing, food, books, materials,etc. And=3D2=
0=3D
unlike in Vince's time the competition is - shall I say ferocious!=3D20
It is a law of numbers. If there are 150 MFA positions maybe one third-=3D2=
0=3D
=3D20
30 are tuition paid? (hypothetical) So if there are 100 applicants for=3D20=
=3D
every positions that is 15,000 applicants and 30 are available. Pretty=3D20=
=3D
tough odds these days.
And school is way more expensive these days!=3D20
So I am not saying don't get an MFA. I am saying tell the applicants the=3D=
20=3D
truth of the numbers. How many teaching positions, how many MFA's=3D20
applying, how much will you make (Art professors make less than others=3D20=
=3D
departments), how much debt can you handle? What if you get the=3D20
degree and do owe $100,000 because you still have debt from you=3D20
undergraduate and you don't get a job? What is your monthly payment?=3D20
And where will that come from?
But you will have the "intangible artistic growth" and two to three years=
=3D
=3D20
concentration on your own body of work! And that is priceless-- or so=3D20
they say!
Buyer beware.
=3D20
John Britt Pottery
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on mon 25 jun 12
This 'Ted' Series Video comes to mind...
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
Too...
I stubbed-a-Toe on this the other day -
"Restoring the Trivium" ( How many of us Liberal Arts Majors or advocates,
even know what the Trivium or the Quadrivium were or are? )
http://www.gnosticmedia.com/c-realms-kmo-interviews-jan-irvin-restoring-tri=
vium/
Love,
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Britt"
There was a GREAT article the defunct New Art Examiner 1999 February
by Karen Kitchel called "The MFA -Academia's Pyramid Scheme.
I have the article but can't find a link but here is a quote:
She quotes David Bayles and Ted Orlando (Art & Fear) as saying "If 98
percent of our medical students were no longer practicing medicine after
graduation, there would be a Senate investigation, yet that proportion of
art majors are routinely consigned to an early professional death."
from this site:
http://www.artscope.net/NEWS/news021899-5.shtml
Here is a bit of a dialogue on it:
http://www.bigredandshiny.com/cgi-bin/mobile.cgi?
section=3Darticle&issue=3D48&article=3DIS_THERE_TOO_4175731
If you got in early in the Pyramid Scheme then you always tell the others
how great it is, how it is possible and what an honorable thing it is to
do. Especially when your job now depends on it.
John Britt Pottery
William & Susan Schran User on mon 25 jun 12
On 6/24/12 2:04 PM, "John Britt" wrote:
>Hey Vince and James,
>
>Nice topic. I will agree that to get a teaching job in academia you
>definitely need an MFA, and most of the time (my experience) you also
>need an MFA to be an adjunct. They like terminal degrees to make the
>ratio look good even at Community Colleges.
This is mostly true - most colleges require a Masters level degree to
teach transfer degree courses,
those courses that will transfer from undergraduate to graduate level. If
you teach occupational/technical
Programs, you only need a Bachelor's degree. Same rule applies to
adjuncts, not to make the ratio look good,
but because ALL faculty in transfer programs must hold the same credentials
>
>Academia is SELLING degrees so they put the best spin on it. Without
>students they would loose their jobs. So they don't really want to
>mention that is it kinda like the sales pitch for the lottery. "You can't
>win
>if you don't have a ticket." or "Some one has to win." Get a degree and
>you too could get a job in academia.
>The part you don't hear in the application process, or I have never heard,
>is that there are fewer and fewer jobs because people quit and they hire
>adjuncts or close the program. Professors stay as long as possible in
>their jobs. And the competition is outrageous because they have been
>pumping our MFA's for decades and they are competing for the same 10
>positions.
I teach at a large well respected community college. When I advise my
students in the art program
I first ask what their goal is when they complete their education.
If they want to teach at the college level, then I tell them the Master's
degree is required,
But the job market is very competitive and small for full-time teaching.
There are adjunct positions and teaching opportunities at community art
programs and the like.
I never sugar coat the reality.
I tell them if they want to teach in public schools, then Bachelor's
degree in art education is the way.
Master's in art education could be completed before starting a position or
while teaching,
But the Master's is expected at some point in their career.
I also tell them art jobs in public/private primary & secondary are also
competitive,
And many school districts are cutting back.
>
>And school is way more expensive these days!
>
>So I am not saying don't get an MFA. I am saying tell the applicants the
>truth of the numbers. How many teaching positions, how many MFA's
>applying, how much will you make (Art professors make less than others
>departments), how much debt can you handle? What if you get the
>degree and do owe $100,000 because you still have debt from you
>undergraduate and you don't get a job? What is your monthly payment?
>And where will that come from?
I tell students if they want to become studio potters and have no plans of
teaching,
then the bachelor's degree is sufficient for validation.
Apply for residencies, learn everything they can about ALL aspects of
studio production.
They can still teach at art/community centers or even sign up as
substitute teachers.
I tell them the studio potter route is lots of hard work with less return
then they might expect.
They need to be flexible and be ready to grab opportunities as they appear.
They may need to move to rural locations where housing is cheaper,
And where setting up a studio may be a bit easier.
FYI - I make the same salary as others holding a similar degree.
I believe many folks outside of academia are not fully informed of the
realities.
Yes, there are some universities that may not tell the whole story,
And there are some that may not provide the student with all the skills
they will need.
But I think Vince will agree, a majority tell it like it is.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
John Britt on mon 25 jun 12
There was a GREAT article the defunct New Art Examiner 1999 February=3D20
by Karen Kitchel called "The MFA -Academia's Pyramid Scheme.=3D20=3D20
I have the article but can't find a link but here is a quote:
She quotes David Bayles and Ted Orlando (Art & Fear) as saying "If 98=3D
=3D20
percent of our medical students were no longer practicing medicine after=3D=
20=3D
graduation, there would be a Senate investigation, yet that proportion of=
=3D
=3D20
art majors are routinely consigned to an early professional death."=3D20
from this site:
http://www.artscope.net/NEWS/news021899-5.shtml
Here is a bit of a dialogue on it:
http://www.bigredandshiny.com/cgi-bin/mobile.cgi?
section=3D3Darticle&issue=3D3D48&article=3D3DIS_THERE_TOO_4175731
If you got in early in the Pyramid Scheme then you always tell the others=
=3D
=3D20
how great it is, how it is possible and what an honorable thing it is to=3D=
20=3D
do. Especially when your job now depends on it.=3D20
John Britt Pottery
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