pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 28 jun 12
Hi John, Vince, James, all...
Below...amid...
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Post"
>> Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has
>> dropped
>> drastically.
Yup...they were good or even excellent, in the 1930s and 1940s, and even
into the 1950s, then got kind of 'so so', then worse from there.
Their Electric Routers in the 1930s were Excellent, then they changed the
designs and stayed with 'mediocre' or worse from then on.
> Makita and Hitachi are good,
Well...'Homey don' play dat'...so...
> and both far above Black
>> & Decker
Black & Decker started out with a very charming Electric Drill Design and
Patent, which they bought from someone else, but, it was they who undertook
to manufacture it. I think this was in 1918, but I am not feeling fresh on
the subject at the moment. Lovely Sand Cast Aluminum Alloy Bodys, Brass
Rotary Trigger...and, success with that Drill soon led to their adding othe=
r
Sizes or Models, and, these were all lovely and charming and wonderfully
made. Very high quality. I have a few, including a 5/8ths Jacob Chuck Model
from 1924 which has enormous torque.
Gals in late Edwardian Skirts and Blouses sitting at long tables under tall
Ceiling hanging Green Enamel Lighting Shades, Hand Winding the little
Armetures and so on.
Who could want anything more?
I mean, that is barely one small step from say, Virgins and Unicorns I'd
say.
Anyway, things grew, and they continued to make really excellent Electric
and soon, also Pnuematic Tools, and by the mid '30s introcuding a sort of
'Home Owner' line of Tools, and, while these were still 'good',or even very
good, their Commercial and Industrial Lines were 'excellent', and, stayed
excellent up through the 1950s anyway, maybe if diminishingly, some example=
s
even into the '60s.
After that, "Puh Tooey"...
>> or Craftsman.
Well, of course 'Craftsman' never made their own things, but, elected stock
or commissioned designs from various Manufacturing Companys and had their
things made then for the 'Craftsman' Line, and, similarly, much of these (
Power Tools ) were pretty good, seldom great or excellent, but, 'pretty
good' up through the 1950s or even maybe the early '60s, but the 1930s and
into '40s, were the best. After that "Puh Tooey".
> Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but better than
>> Black &
>> Decker or Craftsman.
Well, at that point, who cares?
> DeWalt
Was very good at one time...in the '30s anyway, maybe the '40s or somewqhat
into the '50s, also...then...( insert someone playing 'Taps', here...)
Van Dorn was very good also...even excellent sometimes.
> is equal to Makita and Hitachi, but not
>> as good
>> as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the best-quality hand power
>> tools.
Bosch is pretty good...sometimes excellent in a now-a-days sort of way ( fo=
r
their true Commercial or Industrial Lines ).
But, Electric Rounter wise, nothing Bosch ever offered was anywhere close t=
o
the charm, quality, and true all round excellence, of the old R. L Carter
Line up.
R. L: Carter used to be THE 'Last Word' in Electric Routers...then Stanley
bought them out, and, then, the Stanley Rounters were very very good or eve=
n
excellent, ( but never quite AS good, or quite AS excellent, as the earlie=
r
R. L. Carter ones had been, with their little screw-Top Grease Cups and Oil
Sinks for their Bearings, which Grease Cups Stanley got rid of real fast,
then eliminated the Oil Sinks by the mid to latter 1940s or so).
Everyone went to 'Sealed Bearings' around that time, and this offends me,
so, whenever I have been able to, I boycot that stuff, and stay with Grease
Cup, Zerk Fitting or Oil Sink provisions for Bearings.
Bosch eventually bought out the Stanley Electric Router Division, and, afte=
r
a very short while stopped producing those already tending to be degraded
designs anyway, and, instead, made their own designs.
SkilSaw was once truely Excellent, and even their Homeowner Grade or Line
was very very good.
They are still alright far as their Worm Drive Saws, but I myself would not
own or use one any newer than the 'Blue Oval Label' era, which ended I thin=
k
in the late '40s or so.
Those had much more quality than anything made today, had much larger
Bearings, and look really good...they are very quiet in use, and feel
'right'.
SkilSaw Brand Worm-Drive Belt Sanders were also about THE last Word, and I
suppose remain so, if all getting a little old by now. Thhey are very quiet
and powerful and smooth.
I hate 'noisy' Power Tools and I do not know how anyone can stand them.
All of the 1930s and 1940s ones I have, are "quiet".
Funny how things go, huh?
I also hate gee gaw colored plastic, insectoid looking, and fake assed
'Klingon' looking theater prop designs for Power Tools, which most everyone
started going to a while back.
All my most favorite were made using Sand Castings which were then Machined
and so on...that was the 'Golden Era' which I find the most appealing and
Heart Warming.
Black & Decker, Thor ( the same folks as used to make the wonderful Racing
and Sporting Motorcycles ), Stanley, and ohhh, heck, I forget now who else,
all made very very good to excellent Electric Worm Drive Saws from the late
1920s on, but these all petered out by the 1950s or so I guess, other than
for Skil keeping the Faith....then, eventually, everyone got into the act,
by, by then, who cares...they are all boring and 'clunky' and or stupid
looking, usually very 'noisy', and no fun compared to the early and earnest
examples.
> Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph.
I like convoluted paragraphs...I am right-at-home with them.
> All you have
> to do is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to
> nine after reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question.
Quality of which Make and Model, and 'when' would be the more thorough
question.
If I had to be a Carpenter using the same crap 99.9 percent of all
Carpenters and Contractors use, I would quit and go sell Crack or condo Tim=
e
Shares or Cold-Call sales for Colostomy Bags or something.
I can not thinnk of any thing more depressing than to be making a Living
using stuff from god damned K-Mart or Homeclub or whatever.
I would rather just drive to the Coast, leave the keys and pink slip on the
Car Seat, take off my Clothes, and, take 'the long swim'...
> John Post
> Sterling Heights, Michigan
Love!
Phil
L v
Snail Scott on thu 28 jun 12
My belt sander is a Craftsman, so old that the company
no longer even has records of serial numbers in that
format. The rubber friction sleeves have finally rotted
off of the wooden drive wheels under the belt, so I am
planning to paint them with the Plasti-Dip tool-handle
coating. The fence is not original, the stand is not
original, the motor is not original, the disc attachment is
not original. Nor is the switch or the dust catcher or the
drive belt. It may be that the only 'Craftsman' component
is the cast-iron frame with the serial number plate
attached! Kinda like that Johnny Cash song about the
Cadillac. Whatever...it works.
-Snail
Vince Pitelka on thu 28 jun 12
I wrote:
"Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has dropped
drastically. Makita and Hitachi are good, and both far above Black & Decke=
r
or Craftsman. Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but
> better than Black & Decker or Craftsman. DeWalt is equal to Makita and
Hitachi, but not as good as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the
best-quality hand power tools.
John Post wrote:
"Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph. All you have to do
is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to nine after
reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question."
Thanks John. That gave me a good giggle. But you know, I think that we al=
l
need to stay on top of our game, so presenting studio artists with that kin=
d
of challenge is maybe a good thing.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 28 jun 12
Hi Kim,
A 'Stand-up', Stationary Belt Sander would likely be the most practical for
this.
If it were me, needing one, I would just fan through the local Want Ads,
Craig's List, ebay...free cycle...and, look for an old or older ( as old as
possible anyway ) Sears 'Craftsman' 6 x 48 Belt Size ( 6 inches by 48 inch
Belt ).
The old ones were very simple, solid, heavy-enough, and well made, all Cast
Iron, Alluminum Alloy 'Rollers', and very easy to rebuild if need be ( ie:
new Bearings or even a new Main Shaft for that matter ).
I bought a junker one in 1979, missing the usual factory Stand, and, I
dismantled, cleaned, painted it, pressed some new Bearings into it, mounted
it on a Table, and have used the be-jeeezeeees out of ever since.
Belt type and grit variety for this size is about endless, so you can get
super super fine to very coarse-grit Belts, and, get them in many kinds of
grit. Belts are cheap when getting them by the dozen Mail Order.
Originally they came with the large Disc on one side, for which one uses
Discs of Abrasive Paper which adhere to the Iron Disc using a particular
adhesive made for the purpose, and on mine that amenity was long gone and I
never missed it, but, usually they are still present and some people like
using the Disc for various things.
These use a small Electric Motor which mounts below, and any sort of small
Nema Frame or otherwise usual Electric Motor will do, so if a Motor is
missing or gone bag, it is a very easy matter to just get some 1/3rd Horse
Motor for five bucks at a Yard Sale or whatever, and, use it.
Phil
Las Vegas
>
> Subject: Tools --Help!
> From: "Jim Kasper"
> Date: Wed, June 27, 2012 6:46 pm
> To: "clayart"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>
> My brother called this evening. He is off to Croatia to do a mission of
> sorts. He is making some soapstone medallions for the kids to work on, an=
d
> now he needs (wants) a belt /disk sander to do some finish work on them,
> and was wondering about quality vs price on what was out there.
>
> I was bragging on my clayart list. I told him that the quality
> experience on out list was an amazing resource.
>
> With that
> little preface, I plead for one and all to throw in your opinions. What
> would you suggest?
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
>
> Zafka Studios
> Jensen Beach, FL.
> http://zafka.com
> Phone: 772-334-3070
John Post on thu 28 jun 12
> Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has
> dropped
> drastically. Makita and Hitachi are good, and both far above Black
> & Decker
> or Craftsman. Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but better than
> Black &
> Decker or Craftsman. DeWalt is equal to Makita and Hitachi, but not
> as good
> as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the best-quality hand power
> tools.
Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph. All you have
to do is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to
nine after reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.johnpost.us
Follow me on Twitter
https://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher
Snail Scott on fri 29 jun 12
Angle grinders are tools I use a lot, on both metal and
ceramic. I have two, one reserved for each material, to
reduce the time spent swapping discs. For me, the most
critical factor isn't 'quality' per se, but ease of use. I often
spend hours grinding, and if it's not comfortable to use,
why would I want it to last forever? Many high-quality tools
have grips that are dreadfully uncomfortable for my stubby
fingers and small hands, have inconveniently-located
switches and lock buttons, and weigh too much to be
pleasant for long stints of use. (DeWalt is my least favorite
in all these regards, though the recent models are better.)
When one of my old grinders finally died I went shopping,
and picked up and handled every contender in several
stores. The winner was not the priciest nor the cheapest,
but the cost was quite reasonable, and I'm delighted with
my new lightweight, skinny-barreled Hitachi. The nose of
the barrel is also tapered a bit, allowing me to work in
tighter spaces than some other models would allow. It's a
tool I require quite often, so I want the best, but what makes
it 'best' is based on my own criteria, not anyone else's.
Similarly:
Red Wing makes great boots, but they aren't shaped like
my feet, so I don't wear 'em. The ones I do wear haven't got
the same durability, but they fit properly, and I'd rather buy a
new pair more often than stand around in pain. 'Quality' only
counts if a product meets your needs. And value - whether
it's worth the money to YOU - is still a relevant factor.
-Snail
Steve Mills on fri 29 jun 12
I have a two speed B & D bought just after they stopped all metal casings a=
n=3D
d introduced plastic into part of the drill body (yes, that old!) I use it =
t=3D
o mix clay slop and glazes.=3D20
It still motors on and has outlasted two newer B&Ds, two Bosch, and one "Su=
p=3D
ermarkets Own Brand".=3D20
Not bad going!
Steve M
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my iPod
On 29 Jun 2012, at 13:44, Mike wrote:
> I made the mistake of buying a 'heavy duty' Black and Decker corded
> drill with the intention of mixing glazes some years back. It lasted
> about 3 or 4 uses of mixing the heavy ash glazes, then it started making
> all kinds of noise and horrible burning smells. Black and Decker, nope,
> more like Black and Charred.
> Spent some money the second time around and bought a Bosch corded hammer
> drill which has been really great. Much more quiet than the BnD, and far
> more powerful. Dredge up hard panned glazes with it frequently and it
> barely heats up.
> The hardware guy here was telling me the other day that Makita has gone
> downhill in recent years. Couldn't validate that myself, I have a Makita
> impact driver and a Makita circular saw that are absolutely great. But,
> I bought them both over 8 years ago.
>=3D20
> Mike
> in Taku, Japan
>=3D20
> Site: http://karatsupots.com
> Blog: http://karatsupots.com/wordpress
>=3D20
> (2012/06/29 13:23), Vince Pitelka wrote:
>> I wrote:
>> "Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has droppe=
d=3D
>> drastically. Makita and Hitachi are good, and both far above Black & De=
c=3D
ker
>> or Craftsman. Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but
>>> better than Black & Decker or Craftsman. DeWalt is equal to Makita and
>> Hitachi, but not as good as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the
>> best-quality hand power tools.
>>=3D20
>> John Post wrote:
>> "Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph. All you have to=
d=3D
o
>> is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to nine af=
t=3D
er
>> reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question."
>>=3D20
>> Thanks John. That gave me a good giggle. But you know, I think that we=
a=3D
ll
>> need to stay on top of our game, so presenting studio artists with that =
k=3D
ind
>> of challenge is maybe a good thing.
>> - Vince
>>=3D20
>> Vince Pitelka
>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>> Tennessee Tech University
>> vpitelka@dtccom.net
>> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>>=3D20
Mike on fri 29 jun 12
I made the mistake of buying a 'heavy duty' Black and Decker corded
drill with the intention of mixing glazes some years back. It lasted
about 3 or 4 uses of mixing the heavy ash glazes, then it started making
all kinds of noise and horrible burning smells. Black and Decker, nope,
more like Black and Charred.
Spent some money the second time around and bought a Bosch corded hammer
drill which has been really great. Much more quiet than the BnD, and far
more powerful. Dredge up hard panned glazes with it frequently and it
barely heats up.
The hardware guy here was telling me the other day that Makita has gone
downhill in recent years. Couldn't validate that myself, I have a Makita
impact driver and a Makita circular saw that are absolutely great. But,
I bought them both over 8 years ago.
Mike
in Taku, Japan
Site: http://karatsupots.com
Blog: http://karatsupots.com/wordpress
(2012/06/29 13:23), Vince Pitelka wrote:
> I wrote:
> "Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has dropped
> drastically. Makita and Hitachi are good, and both far above Black & Dec=
ker
> or Craftsman. Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but
>> better than Black & Decker or Craftsman. DeWalt is equal to Makita and
> Hitachi, but not as good as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the
> best-quality hand power tools.
>
> John Post wrote:
> "Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph. All you have to =
do
> is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to nine aft=
er
> reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question."
>
> Thanks John. That gave me a good giggle. But you know, I think that we =
all
> need to stay on top of our game, so presenting studio artists with that k=
ind
> of challenge is maybe a good thing.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>
Eric Ciup on fri 29 jun 12
Since he is traveling to Croatia to do good works he probably doesn't
want to shlep a lot of heavy gear. I would suggest a flap sander with a
mandrel which he could mount on a utility motor that he could buy there.
I haven't found a source for these besides Ebay
http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=3D6%22%20flap%20wheel&clk_rvr_id=3D3598975695=
50
Eric
> My brother called this evening. He is off to Croatia to do a mission of
> sorts. He is making some soapstone medallions for the kids to work on,
> and
> now he needs (wants) a belt /disk sander to do some finish work on them,
> and was wondering about quality vs price on what was out there.
>
> I was bragging on my clayart list. I told him that the quality
> experience on out list was an amazing resource.
>
> With that
> little preface, I plead for one and all to throw in your opinions. What
> would you suggest?
Ric Swenson on fri 29 jun 12
'you gets what you pays for'....
to coin a phrase... hehe
bottom line
cheap is cheap....or in-expensive....or whatever..
teak wood tools or pine?
fir or hemlock?
bamboo or what?
stainless steel or iron?
ribs that cut you? shame on you...
cheap or long-lasting?
decide foks..
what lasts a thousand years?
maybe porcelain
who cares ? a hundred years is enough..
right MEL?
so Makia or Hitachi vs cable? or any thing that actually works? stanley=
tools vs others? black and decker has always been cheap...and not long-las=
ting,,,sorry to say....other Americans who make this shit must acknowledge =
their lack of craftsmanship?
what works...works
My chain saw is a spanish brand....
works better than a minnesota brand... if there is one?
oh...sorry....no one in Minnesota knows good chainsaws
except of course.....one guy
Milwauke tools are pretty good.
had one for 30 years....still quite good.
but that was then...now is now....
ric
Ric Swenson, B.F.A, M.F.A.
Ceramist, Artist and Teacher.
Jing De Zhen Ceramic Institute
Jing De Zhen City,
Jiang Xi Province
China
Mobile: 86-13767818872
> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:23:20 -0500
> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Tools --Help!]
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>
> I wrote:
> "Porter Cable has deteriorated and the quality of their tools has dropped
> drastically. Makita and Hitachi are good, and both far above Black & Deck=
er
> or Craftsman. Ryobi is below Makita and Hitachi but
> > better than Black & Decker or Craftsman. DeWalt is equal to Makita and
> Hitachi, but not as good as Bosch or Milwaukee, which I see as the
> best-quality hand power tools.
>
> John Post wrote:
> "Jeez Vince, this is some kind of convoluted paragraph. All you have to d=
o
> is ask someone to list the quality of tools in order from one to nine aft=
er
> reading this and you have an ACT/SAT test question."
>
> Thanks John. That gave me a good giggle. But you know, I think that we al=
l
> need to stay on top of our game, so presenting studio artists with that k=
ind
> of challenge is maybe a good thing.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Randall Moody on fri 29 jun 12
Personally, for around the studio use I like the Ryobi cordless 18v series.
You can pick up a "starter set" for about $100 that has the drill and a 5
1/4 circular saw, 2 batteries, charger and canvas carrying bag. At a
certain point the differences become personal preference. I think it also
depends on the particular tool you are looking for. Rikon makes great
lathes. SawStop makes great table saws. Festool makes probably the best
corded jigsaw but it is $300 while Milwaukee makes the best rated cordless
drill for $150.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Vince Pitelka on fri 29 jun 12
Mike in Taku, Japan wrote:
"The hardware guy here was telling me the other day that Makita has gone =
=3D
downhill in recent years. Couldn't validate that myself, I have a Makita =
=3D
impact driver and a Makita circular saw that are absolutely great. But, =3D
I bought them both over 8 years ago."
Hi Mike -=3D20
I realize that my own experience is still just a tiny test-market, but =3D
it is worth mentioning. Recent purchases for the Craft Center clay =3D
studio have included Makita drills for mixing glazes and a Makita saber =3D
saw, and they have been great. I see no deterioration in quality.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Lee on sat 30 jun 12
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Mike wrote:
> Spent some money the second time around and bought a Bosch corded hammer
> drill which has been really great.
I got the same Toshiba heavy duty that we used at my teacher's workshop.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Vinod Chettur on sun 1 jul 12
I have a Black and Decker from 97 that still works but I now use it only =
=3D
for light=3D20
drilling. I use a Bosch with hammer drill most of the time. For clay recy=
=3D
ling and=3D20
glaze mixing I have a Milwaukee with plenty of power.
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