Robert Harris on wed 18 jul 12
Depending on your definition of 'factory' (in this case the concept of a
production line etc.), the very first factories in the world were the huge
Imperial Chinese Kilns in the 14th century (or perhaps earlier).
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:16 PM, wrote:
> Hi Mel, all...
>
>
>
> I do not know where anyone got it into their Head, that for an endevor or
> for production Artisanship, a person must somehow do everything alone,
> by-themselves, and, with no one assiting or helping.
>
>
> Where did this come from?
>
>
> I do not see how there was ever any precedent in recorded History, or,
> inferences of precedent in pre-recotded-History so-to-speak, for Artisans
> who were making things, to do all of it, start to finish, by
> themselves...unless maybe if isplated in some small Tribe where no Trade
> with outsiders was to occur, and, hence, output was so small and limited,=
a
> few such items was all that were ever needed, now and then, so, sole
> individuals could make them by themselves, and, that was plenty good
> enough.
>
> Always, anywhere a MArket so to speak existed for such items, then once a=
n
> individual had gained enough understanding and proficiency in making, the
> tendency was for them to direct and manage others who were co-operating i=
n
> various roles, under their direction, to produce the items.
>
>
> If I were in an earlier phase of our own society, I would have four or fi=
ve
> small or smallish Manufacturing concerns, and, I would design the product=
s,
> design the manufacturing methods, design and make the Machinery or other
> things necessary to make them, and, manage and over see things, and, mana=
ge
> and oversee others working for me, to make sure they are managing and
> overseeing things, etc, so that the quality and detail and fun and
> satisfaction of 'Making', and, of the products themselves, would please m=
e,
> and, along with that, please anyone else worth caring about.
>
>
> The phase of society we are in now, there is no way I would even consider
> to
> let anyone help me, let alone, would I set up and organize for producing
> additional products where others would have to help me make them...so, I
> Work alone, and the output is limited to what I can do by myself.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy it, but, if I were in a Society which wa=
s
> structured to reward instead of punish small co-operative endevors, 'smal=
l
> business' so called, I would rather have a few small Manufacturing
> Facilities, and make far more cool and interesting and useful things with
> the help of others, than I could ever possibly do alone.
>
>
> ...sigh...
>
>
> Phil
> L v
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mel jacobson"
>
>
> as many of you know, hamada did very few pots.
>> he made great movies of him glazing, throwing and doing brush work.
>>
>> he had a factory with 14 people working every day, six days a week.
>>
>> i was very fortunate to be there for an entire day.
>> you can read from my book or from the archives.
>> won't go into it again.
>>
>> but,
>> mr. hamada introduced me to a small, very plain
>> korean lady.
>> we shook hands. bowed.
>> but this is what mr. hamda said to me.
>>
>> "this lady does all my brush work, she is a master brush artist.
>> i was so lucky to find her. she is ten times the brush painter
>> that i am. she does it all." and, of course, she did.
>> and he had a wonderful old japanese master mold potter that
>> did those great bottles..squared off. he had about forty on the shelf t=
he
>> day i was there. he was making some as i stood there. mr. hamada said
>> "he was the best hand builder/molder in japan."
>>
>> the lady did the brush work on those bottles. that standard
>> bent milk week design.
>>
>> so many do not have a clue what a master potter in japan did or does.
>> they made pots by the hundreds a week. i saw it over and over
>> all over japan. it was not wrong, or right...it is how they make pots.
>>
>> mr. hamada was proud of his workers and paid them well. they loaded
>> and unloaded the kilns, threw on the wheel, glazed them and decorated
>> them.
>> . he was very open about what was done and how....
>> he knew i was working `in the system`. he respected mr. uchida, and tol=
d
>> me so.
>> uchida was the new breed of kyoto potters. he did not do the old design=
s
>> of key o misu. he was his own man. all pure white. danish influence.
>>
>> but, we made the pots, four of us. every day.
>> mr. uchida did other things..he was a very busy
>> designer of pots. i was the worst potter in kyoto. but, i did not know
>> it
>> at the time...i got better with time.
>>
>> so, if you recognize a hamada, you recognize his studio design. made by
>> others. and, that is just fine...the way it is.
>> the hamada factory made thousands of pots each year.
>> and, they all went to his agent for sale.
>> every one. mr. hamada was a millionare ten times over.
>> and, don't assume it is right, or wrong.
>> it is different.
>> very.
>> mel
>>
>> from: minnetonka, mn
>> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/**clayart.htmlsi.com/~melpots/clayart.html>
>>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------
James Freeman on wed 18 jul 12
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Ben Morrison wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the mass production of great works.
Like Thomas Kinkade?
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 18 jul 12
Actually, 'Factory' means a place where records or counts or =3D
Accounts/Accountings are made or kept.
A Manufactory is a place where things or objects are made, and, Records =3D
or Accountings concerning the things made, and the hours or =3D
contributions of the Artisans/Workers, use of or inventory of Materials, =
=3D
etc, are also made and kept.
But, regardless, any more, it ( 'Factory' ) is understood to mean some =3D
usually formal Setting for producing objects or things 'made' anyway.
Manufactories however formal or informal, I would imagine were well =3D
establed at the time of old Aegypt or Babylon and likely had a long =3D
history stretching way back prior to them.
I gather, the earliest Cuneform 'Tablets' were accountings of items or =3D
things made or managed, and, thus, the earliest formal writing as such, =3D
appears to be associated with record keeping of =3D
things/items/production/management.
Technically, my own little Workshop is a Manufactory - things get made, =3D
records of what is made are also made and kept...even though it is only =3D
me doing it.
We may associate 'Manufacturing' with settings of large or enormous =3D
scale, but, Manufacturing may also be one person doing something and =3D
keeping some sort of record of what they do.
----- Original Message -----=3D20
From: Robert Harris=3D20
To: pdp1@earthlink.net=3D20
Cc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org=3D20
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: hamada brush work
Depending on your definition of 'factory' (in this case the concept of =
=3D
a production line etc.), the very first factories in the world were the =3D
huge Imperial Chinese Kilns in the 14th century (or perhaps earlier).
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:16 PM, wrote:
Hi Mel, all...
I do not know where anyone got it into their Head, that for an =3D
endevor or
for production Artisanship, a person must somehow do everything =3D
alone,
by-themselves, and, with no one assiting or helping.
Where did this come from?
I do not see how there was ever any precedent in recorded History, =3D
or,
inferences of precedent in pre-recotded-History so-to-speak, for =3D
Artisans
who were making things, to do all of it, start to finish, by
themselves...unless maybe if isplated in some small Tribe where no =3D
Trade
with outsiders was to occur, and, hence, output was so small and =3D
limited, a
few such items was all that were ever needed, now and then, so, sole
individuals could make them by themselves, and, that was plenty good =
=3D
enough.
Always, anywhere a MArket so to speak existed for such items, then =3D
once an
individual had gained enough understanding and proficiency in =3D
making, the
tendency was for them to direct and manage others who were =3D
co-operating in
various roles, under their direction, to produce the items.
If I were in an earlier phase of our own society, I would have four =3D
or five
small or smallish Manufacturing concerns, and, I would design the =3D
products,
design the manufacturing methods, design and make the Machinery or =3D
other
things necessary to make them, and, manage and over see things, and, =
=3D
manage
and oversee others working for me, to make sure they are managing =3D
and
overseeing things, etc, so that the quality and detail and fun and
satisfaction of 'Making', and, of the products themselves, would =3D
please me,
and, along with that, please anyone else worth caring about.
The phase of society we are in now, there is no way I would even =3D
consider to
let anyone help me, let alone, would I set up and organize for =3D
producing
additional products where others would have to help me make =3D
them...so, I
Work alone, and the output is limited to what I can do by myself.
Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy it, but, if I were in a Society =3D
which was
structured to reward instead of punish small co-operative endevors, =3D
'small
business' so called, I would rather have a few small Manufacturing
Facilities, and make far more cool and interesting and useful things =
=3D
with
the help of others, than I could ever possibly do alone.
...sigh...
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
as many of you know, hamada did very few pots.
he made great movies of him glazing, throwing and doing brush =3D
work.
he had a factory with 14 people working every day, six days a =3D
week.
i was very fortunate to be there for an entire day.
you can read from my book or from the archives.
won't go into it again.
but,
mr. hamada introduced me to a small, very plain
korean lady.
we shook hands. bowed.
but this is what mr. hamda said to me.
"this lady does all my brush work, she is a master brush artist.
i was so lucky to find her. she is ten times the brush painter
that i am. she does it all." and, of course, she did.
and he had a wonderful old japanese master mold potter that
did those great bottles..squared off. he had about forty on the =3D
shelf the
day i was there. he was making some as i stood there. mr. hamada =
=3D
said
"he was the best hand builder/molder in japan."
the lady did the brush work on those bottles. that standard
bent milk week design.
so many do not have a clue what a master potter in japan did or =3D
does.
they made pots by the hundreds a week. i saw it over and over
all over japan. it was not wrong, or right...it is how they make =3D
pots.
mr. hamada was proud of his workers and paid them well. they =3D
loaded
and unloaded the kilns, threw on the wheel, glazed them and =3D
decorated
them.
. he was very open about what was done and how....
he knew i was working `in the system`. he respected mr. uchida, =3D
and told
me so.
uchida was the new breed of kyoto potters. he did not do the old =3D
designs
of key o misu. he was his own man. all pure white. danish =3D
influence.
but, we made the pots, four of us. every day.
mr. uchida did other things..he was a very busy
designer of pots. i was the worst potter in kyoto. but, i did =3D
not know
it
at the time...i got better with time.
so, if you recognize a hamada, you recognize his studio design. =3D
made by
others. and, that is just fine...the way it is.
the hamada factory made thousands of pots each year.
and, they all went to his agent for sale.
every one. mr. hamada was a millionare ten times over.
and, don't assume it is right, or wrong.
it is different.
very.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
mel jacobson on wed 18 jul 12
as many of you know, hamada did very few pots.
he made great movies of him glazing, throwing and doing brush work.
he had a factory with 14 people working every day, six days a week.
i was very fortunate to be there for an entire day.
you can read from my book or from the archives.
won't go into it again.
but,
mr. hamada introduced me to a small, very plain
korean lady.
we shook hands. bowed.
but this is what mr. hamda said to me.
"this lady does all my brush work, she is a master brush artist.
i was so lucky to find her. she is ten times the brush painter
that i am. she does it all." and, of course, she did.
and he had a wonderful old japanese master mold potter that
did those great bottles..squared off. he had about forty on the shelf the
day i was there. he was making some as i stood there. mr. hamada said
"he was the best hand builder/molder in japan."
the lady did the brush work on those bottles. that standard
bent milk week design.
so many do not have a clue what a master potter in japan did or does.
they made pots by the hundreds a week. i saw it over and over
all over japan. it was not wrong, or right...it is how they make pots.
mr. hamada was proud of his workers and paid them well. they loaded
and unloaded the kilns, threw on the wheel, glazed them and decorated them.
. he was very open about what was done and how....
he knew i was working `in the system`. he respected mr. uchida, and told m=
e so.
uchida was the new breed of kyoto potters. he did not do the old designs
of key o misu. he was his own man. all pure white. danish influence.
but, we made the pots, four of us. every day.
mr. uchida did other things..he was a very busy
designer of pots. i was the worst potter in kyoto. but, i did not know it
at the time...i got better with time.
so, if you recognize a hamada, you recognize his studio design. made by
others. and, that is just fine...the way it is.
the hamada factory made thousands of pots each year.
and, they all went to his agent for sale.
every one. mr. hamada was a millionare ten times over.
and, don't assume it is right, or wrong.
it is different.
very.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 18 jul 12
Hi Mel, all...
I do not know where anyone got it into their Head, that for an endevor or
for production Artisanship, a person must somehow do everything alone,
by-themselves, and, with no one assiting or helping.
Where did this come from?
I do not see how there was ever any precedent in recorded History, or,
inferences of precedent in pre-recotded-History so-to-speak, for Artisans
who were making things, to do all of it, start to finish, by
themselves...unless maybe if isplated in some small Tribe where no Trade
with outsiders was to occur, and, hence, output was so small and limited, a
few such items was all that were ever needed, now and then, so, sole
individuals could make them by themselves, and, that was plenty good enough=
.
Always, anywhere a MArket so to speak existed for such items, then once an
individual had gained enough understanding and proficiency in making, the
tendency was for them to direct and manage others who were co-operating in
various roles, under their direction, to produce the items.
If I were in an earlier phase of our own society, I would have four or five
small or smallish Manufacturing concerns, and, I would design the products,
design the manufacturing methods, design and make the Machinery or other
things necessary to make them, and, manage and over see things, and, manage
and oversee others working for me, to make sure they are managing and
overseeing things, etc, so that the quality and detail and fun and
satisfaction of 'Making', and, of the products themselves, would please me,
and, along with that, please anyone else worth caring about.
The phase of society we are in now, there is no way I would even consider t=
o
let anyone help me, let alone, would I set up and organize for producing
additional products where others would have to help me make them...so, I
Work alone, and the output is limited to what I can do by myself.
Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy it, but, if I were in a Society which was
structured to reward instead of punish small co-operative endevors, 'small
business' so called, I would rather have a few small Manufacturing
Facilities, and make far more cool and interesting and useful things with
the help of others, than I could ever possibly do alone.
...sigh...
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
> as many of you know, hamada did very few pots.
> he made great movies of him glazing, throwing and doing brush work.
>
> he had a factory with 14 people working every day, six days a week.
>
> i was very fortunate to be there for an entire day.
> you can read from my book or from the archives.
> won't go into it again.
>
> but,
> mr. hamada introduced me to a small, very plain
> korean lady.
> we shook hands. bowed.
> but this is what mr. hamda said to me.
>
> "this lady does all my brush work, she is a master brush artist.
> i was so lucky to find her. she is ten times the brush painter
> that i am. she does it all." and, of course, she did.
> and he had a wonderful old japanese master mold potter that
> did those great bottles..squared off. he had about forty on the shelf th=
e
> day i was there. he was making some as i stood there. mr. hamada said
> "he was the best hand builder/molder in japan."
>
> the lady did the brush work on those bottles. that standard
> bent milk week design.
>
> so many do not have a clue what a master potter in japan did or does.
> they made pots by the hundreds a week. i saw it over and over
> all over japan. it was not wrong, or right...it is how they make pots.
>
> mr. hamada was proud of his workers and paid them well. they loaded
> and unloaded the kilns, threw on the wheel, glazed them and decorated
> them.
> . he was very open about what was done and how....
> he knew i was working `in the system`. he respected mr. uchida, and told
> me so.
> uchida was the new breed of kyoto potters. he did not do the old designs
> of key o misu. he was his own man. all pure white. danish influence.
>
> but, we made the pots, four of us. every day.
> mr. uchida did other things..he was a very busy
> designer of pots. i was the worst potter in kyoto. but, i did not know
> it
> at the time...i got better with time.
>
> so, if you recognize a hamada, you recognize his studio design. made by
> others. and, that is just fine...the way it is.
> the hamada factory made thousands of pots each year.
> and, they all went to his agent for sale.
> every one. mr. hamada was a millionare ten times over.
> and, don't assume it is right, or wrong.
> it is different.
> very.
> mel
>
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Ben Morrison on wed 18 jul 12
I like Hamada's approach to pottery. The studio potter is at a disadvantage=
=3D
to the factory in most respects. Even a low tech factory like the ones tha=
=3D
t Hamada and others at the time implemented have the studio potter beat han=
=3D
d over fist. One could cling to the artistic value of a hand made object, o=
=3D
r the uniqueness of one off studio pottery, but the majority of the work th=
=3D
at came out of those factories was hand made and very well made at that. I =
=3D
would personally enjoy working in a 14 person factory, especially with peop=
=3D
le as talented as the ones selected by Shoji Hamada. =3D0A=3D0ASome great s=
tudi=3D
o potters utilize labor to aid in the process of making more pots. Some of =
=3D
them utilize technology to mass produce artwork. Some of them hide their pr=
=3D
ocess by which they are successful at creating a lot of great ceramics. Thi=
=3D
s is the only significant problem I have with any of it, is the distortion =
=3D
or omission of the facts. There's nothing wrong with the mass production of=
=3D
great works. =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A-Ben=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A______________________=
__________=3D0A =3D
From: mel jacobson =3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D=
0ASe=3D
nt: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:40 PM=3D0ASubject: hamada brush work=3D0A =
=3D0Aas =3D
many of you know, hamada did very few pots.=3D0Ahe made great movies of him=
g=3D
lazing, throwing and doing brush work.=3D0A=3D0Ahe had a factory with 14 pe=
ople=3D
working every day, six days a week.=3D0A=3D0Ai was very fortunate to be th=
ere =3D
for an entire day.=3D0Ayou can read from my book or from the archives.=3D0A=
won'=3D
t go into it again.=3D0A=3D0Abut,=3D0Amr. hamada introduced me to a small, =
very p=3D
lain=3D0Akorean lady.=3D0Awe shook hands. bowed.=3D0Abut this is what mr. h=
amda s=3D
aid to me.=3D0A=3D0A"this lady does all my brush work, she is a master brus=
h ar=3D
tist.=3D0Ai was so lucky to find her.=3DA0 she is ten times the brush paint=
er=3D
=3D0Athat i am.=3DA0 she does it all."=3DA0 and, of course, she did.=3D0Aan=
d he had=3D
a wonderful old japanese master mold potter that=3D0Adid those great bottl=
es=3D
..squared off.=3DA0 he had about forty on the shelf the=3D0Aday i was there=
.=3DA0=3D
he was making some as i stood there.=3DA0 mr. hamada said=3D0A"he was the =
best=3D
hand builder/molder in japan."=3D0A=3D0Athe lady did the brush work on tho=
se b=3D
ottles.=3DA0 that standard=3D0Abent milk week design.=3D0A=3D0Aso many do n=
ot have =3D
a clue what a master potter in japan did or does.=3D0Athey made pots by the=
h=3D
undreds a week.=3DA0 i saw it over and over=3D0Aall over japan.=3DA0 it was=
not w=3D
rong, or right...it is how they make pots.=3D0A=3D0Amr. hamada was proud of=
his=3D
workers and paid them well.=3DA0 they loaded=3D0Aand unloaded the kilns, t=
hrew=3D
on the wheel, glazed them and decorated them.=3D0A.=3DA0 he was very open =
abou=3D
t what was done and how....=3D0Ahe knew i was working `in the system`.=3DA0=
he =3D
respected mr. uchida, and told me so.=3D0Auchida was the new breed of kyoto=
p=3D
otters.=3DA0 he did not do the old designs=3D0Aof key o misu.=3DA0 he was h=
is own=3D
man. all pure white.=3DA0 danish influence.=3D0A=3D0Abut, we made the pots=
, four=3D
of us.=3DA0 every day.=3D0Amr. uchida did other things..he was a very busy=
=3D0Ad=3D
esigner of pots.=3DA0 i was the worst potter in kyoto.=3DA0 but, i did not =
know=3D
it=3D0Aat the time...i got better with time.=3D0A=3D0Aso, if you recognize=
a ham=3D
ada, you recognize his studio design.=3DA0 made by=3D0Aothers.=3DA0 and, th=
at is =3D
just fine...the way it is.=3D0Athe hamada factory made thousands of pots ea=
ch=3D
year.=3D0Aand, they all went to his agent for sale.=3D0Aevery one.=3DA0 mr=
. hama=3D
da was a millionare ten times over.=3D0Aand, don't assume it is right, or w=
ro=3D
ng.=3D0Ait is different.=3D0Avery.=3D0Amel=3D0A=3D0Afrom: minnetonka, mn=3D=
0Awebsite: h=3D
ttp://www.visi.com/~melpots/=3D0Aclayart link:=3DA0 http://www.visi.com/~me=
lpot=3D
s/clayart.html
Robert Harris on thu 19 jul 12
Phil - when I think of "factory" (and the way in which I meant the term, I
was using it as shorthand for "manufactory"), I was specifically meaning a
place in which there is specialisation of the person doing each part of
the job. That is, no one person does everything (or possibly even more than
one thing).
In the Imperial kilns, one person made up and wedged the clay, another
threw, another person trimmed, another glazed the pots and a fourth knew
how to fire the kiln. Each person had a single job to do, and passed their
psrt of the finished product down the line.
Unlike a traditional craft pottery there was no overlap of skills or jobs.
I'm sure that some people shifted around, but certainly not on a day-to-day
or even week to week basis.
It was this 'production line' concept of a "factory" that I was referring
to when talking about the Imperial kilns. (That is why I opened my original
e-mail saying that it depended how you defined factory.)
Robert
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 20 jul 12
Hi Robert,=3D20
Oh, I understood all that...
Since you had began with saying 'depending on one's definition of the =3D
word Factory', I just paused to explore that a moment, since everyone's =3D
connotaiton of the word 'Factory' has got so slewed over time.
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----=3D20
From: Robert Harris=3D20
Phil - when I think of "factory" (and the way in which I meant the =3D
term, I was using it as shorthand for "manufactory", I was specifically =3D
meaning a place in which there is specialisation of of the person doing =3D
each part of the job. That is no one person does everything (or possibly =
=3D
even more thn one thing).=3D20
In the Imperial kilns, one person made up and wedged the clay, another =
=3D
threw, another person trimmed, another glazed the pots and a fourth knew =
=3D
how to fire the kiln. Each person had a single job to do, and passed =3D
their psrt of the finished product down the line.
Unlike a traditional craft pottery there was no overlap of skills or =3D
jobs. I'm sure that some people shifted around, but certainly not on a =3D
day-to-day or even week to week basis.
It was this 'production line' concept of a "factory" that I was =3D
referring to when talking about the Imperial kilns.
Robert
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