Deborah Thuman on sun 19 aug 12
Vince is right right - there are frightening things happening in =3D
education. NMSU, and many other universities are jumping on the on-line =3D
teaching program. I can just see, if I let myself, some "professor" =3D
teaching English Lit on line. Great discussion for each book. Language =3D
programs on line are painful to think about.=3D20
But... it's cheap to offer on line programs. Heat in the building =3D
doesn't work? Who care? The classes are on line. Asbestos abatement? Who =
=3D
cares? Classes are on line. You want to teach in your undies? Who cares? =
=3D
Classes are on line.=3D20
Are you sure Joe Smith did the work himself? You've no idea who Joe =3D
Smith is because the class is on line.=3D20
There are universities which are only on line. This isn't learning. This =
=3D
is sitting in your room meditating.=3D20
I can't imagine learning law on line. Although it's been 22 years, I can =
=3D
still remember the day, 12/6/90 when everything clicked and I suddenly =3D
turned into a baby lawyer. It was a Civil Procedure class and I answered =
=3D
a question with the comment: You should have thought of that before you =3D
filed the law suit. That would never have happened on line. I used to =3D
score my answers like a baseball game. I remember vividly the day I hit =3D
a home run. The professor asked if there would have been a difference if =
=3D
the will had said children rather than issue. I glanced at the date, =3D
stuck my hand up, and said that it wouldn't have mattered because =3D
England didn't recognize adoption at that time. The professor was =3D
shocked, took a step back and the room became silent. One of my friends =3D
said the person next to her whispered: How did she know that?=3D20
Lawyers have to have continuing legal education - cle's. My department, =3D
thinking only of cost, has taken to doing cle's on line. What a PITA. =3D
You have to hit a button to ask questions (and this is rather hard if =3D
you are stuck on the other end of the table from the mouse), wait until =3D
the speaker see's there's a question on the screen, and hope you get to =3D
ask your question. But lots of money is saved and that's the important =3D
part.=3D20
We need to bring back education, and it needs to be brought back NOW.=3D20
Deb Thuman
http://debthumansblog.blogspot.com
http://www.etsy.com/shop/DebThuman
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Deb-Thumans-Art-Page/167529715986
James Freeman on sun 19 aug 12
Not picking on anyone, but I found the subject line of this post to be a
bit disgusting. Perhaps it was meant only to add shock value. The US is
not a "third world" country, neither by the term's actual
economic/political definition nor by its colloquial usage as a pejorative
synonym for "poor". Neither is the US heading toward such status. I do
not understand the penchant of some in our society to bash their own
country. If one believes one's job sucks, one seeks a different job. If
one believes one's neighborhood sucks, one seeks to relocate to another.
If one believes one's country sucks, well, the answer seems clear. There
are always choices. If one chooses to compromise and stay put, then one
has made a choice and accepted the terms of the bargain, the good along
with the bad.
As to the actual topic at hand, I think most of us agree that the current
educational system in this country is relatively ineffective. We do not,
however, agree on what the problem is, nor on the proper solution. Indeed,
I would venture that what some see as the problem, others see as the
solution. The idea of universal education, especially at the high school
level and beyond, is one such factor, seen by one side as the solution to a
problem, but seen by another side as the cause of the problem.
If we wish to tread the path of universal education, we must accept either
a Balkanization of education based on innate ability, or a "dumbing down"
of education to a level such that every student's head can remain above
water. Whether we are discussing elementary education or college, the
choices remain the same. To believe that every person has the capacity to
achieve at a high academic level is as foolish as believing that every
person has the capacity to swim like Michael Phelps.
A creative person who has the time and inclination to create, will create,
school or no. An educable person who has the time and inclination to
educate himself or herself will do so, school or no. School can only make
the journey quicker; it cannot reach an unwilling or unable traveler.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
gary navarre on sun 19 aug 12
Ha Deb, sounds like the CBL's (computer based learning) we had to complete =
=3D
while I was a Wal*Mart associate. There is a lot of stuff you need to know =
=3D
working there and although impersonal the CBL's are a convenient way to kee=
=3D
p employees informed about the job. However I was disappointed with their f=
=3D
ork lift CBL because I had trouble visualizing the verbal explanations of m=
=3D
ule driving, even though I drove in the factory for 5+ years without incide=
=3D
nt, so I couldn't seem to answer the questions correctly.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=
=3DA0=3D0AGa=3D
ry Navarre=3D0ANavarre Pottery=3D0ANavarre Enterprises=3D0ANorway, Michigan=
, USA=3D
=3D0Ahttp://www.NavarrePottery.etsy.com=3DA0=3DA0=3DA0=3DA0=3DA0 <...... Ne=
w Pots=3D0Ahtt=3D
p://www.youtube.com/GindaUP=3D0Ahttp://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/=3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0A=3D0A_=3D
_______________________________=3D0A From: Deborah Thuman .C=3D
OM>=3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:=
12 A=3D
M=3D0ASubject: [Clayart] The US is a third world country=3D0A =3D0A=3D0ALaw=
yers hav=3D
e to have continuing legal education - cle's. My department, thinking only =
=3D
of cost, has taken to doing cle's on line. What a PITA. You have to hit a b=
=3D
utton to ask questions (and this is rather hard if you are stuck on the oth=
=3D
er end of the table from the mouse), wait until the speaker see's there's a=
=3D
question on the screen, and hope you get to ask your question. But lots of=
=3D
money is saved and that's the important part. =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0ADeb Thum=
an=3D0Ahtt=3D
p://debthumansblog.blogspot.com=3D0Ahttp://www.etsy.com/shop/DebThuman=3D0A=
http=3D
://www.facebook.com/pages/Deb-Thumans-Art-Page/167529715986
John Post on sun 19 aug 12
> However I was disappointed with their fork lift CBL because I had
> trouble visualizing the verbal explanations of mule driving, even
> though I drove in the factory for 5+ years without incident, so I
> couldn't seem to answer the questions correctly.
When I worked night shifts in a grocery store to pay for college, all
of us on the crew drove the fork lift trucks for years without
problems. Then someone in management decided we needed some type of
fork lift certification.
So we sat in the break room and the manager would give anyone who
needed the answers what he thought was the correct answer.
One of the questions was "How do you know if something is too heavy
for the fork lift to pick up?
Every single crew member wrote "The back wheels of the fork lift come
off the ground when you try to pick it up".
That's what happened in our real world when we unloaded pallets full
of canned goods from the trucks.
Apparently the correct answer is that you look on the fork lift to see
what its load capacity is, then you look at the weight of the load you
are attempting to lift. In all of the years I worked in the grocery
store I never unloaded a pallet of pork n' beans that had a weight
listed on it...
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.johnpost.us
Follow me on Twitter
https://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher
John Post on sun 19 aug 12
The most interesting use of computers in education that I have read
about is students watching the lecture/presentation at home and then
coming into school to do the work in the classroom with the teacher
there to help them when they get stuck. There are some high schools
in Michigan piloting this and the feedback so far has been positive.
It makes a lot more sense than listening to a math lecture at school
and then going home on your own trying to do the homework.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.johnpost.us
Follow me on Twitter
https://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher
On Aug 19, 2012, at 11:12 AM, Deborah Thuman wrote:
> Vince is right right - there are frightening things happening in
> education. NMSU, and many other universities are jumping on the on-
> line teaching program. I can just see, if I let myself, some
> "professor" teaching English Lit on line. Great discussion for each
> book. Language programs on line are painful to think about.
>
> But... it's cheap to offer on line programs. Heat in the building
> doesn't work? Who care? The classes are on line. Asbestos abatement?
> Who cares? Classes are on line. You want to teach in your undies?
> Who cares? Classes are on line.
>
> Are you sure Joe Smith did the work himself? You've no idea who Joe
> Smith is because the class is on line.
>
> There are universities which are only on line. This isn't learning.
> This is sitting in your room meditating.
>
> I can't imagine learning law on line. Although it's been 22 years, I
> can still remember the day, 12/6/90 when everything clicked and I
> suddenly turned into a baby lawyer. It was a Civil Procedure class
> and I answered a question with the comment: You should have thought
> of that before you filed the law suit. That would never have
> happened on line. I used to score my answers like a baseball game. I
> remember vividly the day I hit a home run. The professor asked if
> there would have been a difference if the will had said children
> rather than issue. I glanced at the date, stuck my hand up, and said
> that it wouldn't have mattered because England didn't recognize
> adoption at that time. The professor was shocked, took a step back
> and the room became silent. One of my friends said the person next
> to her whispered: How did she know that?
>
> Lawyers have to have continuing legal education - cle's. My
> department, thinking only of cost, has taken to doing cle's on line.
> What a PITA. You have to hit a button to ask questions (and this is
> rather hard if you are stuck on the other end of the table from the
> mouse), wait until the speaker see's there's a question on the
> screen, and hope you get to ask your question. But lots of money is
> saved and that's the important part.
>
> We need to bring back education, and it needs to be brought back NOW.
>
> Deb Thuman
> http://debthumansblog.blogspot.com
> http://www.etsy.com/shop/DebThuman
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Deb-Thumans-Art-Page/167529715986
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 19 aug 12
Sounds like they were trying to pre-emptively strategize against possible
Law Suit if a Forklift were to be involved in a mis-hap/injury.
Lawyer for the plaintif - "So...none of your Forklift operators had ANY sor=
t
of Certification???"
Wittness "Uhhh, mmmmm, errrrr...well..."
Lol...
I was a 'Towny' one time for some Circus ( 'Circus Vargas' I think ) which
had come to Town in 1977 in Texas, and, at one point, one of my Towny
co-workers happened to slip on some loose Hay and sprawl right as a Forklif=
t
was driving by, and, the Forklift ran over his Leg just above the Ankle. It
was an Pnuematic Tire kind, so, better than the Solid Rubber Warehouse sort
anyway, far as if one were going to get a Leg run over anyway...and it was
on moderately hard Dirt rather than Concrete.
The Boss sort of ushered all of us on to a different location, so I did not
get to see if this had occasioned an open or complex fracture, ( Pants leg
was covering the effected area anyway ) but, I would tend to have to assume
it most likely did.
Just one of those things...
'Watch out!'
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Post"
>> However I was disappointed with their fork lift CBL because I had
>> trouble visualizing the verbal explanations of mule driving, even
>> though I drove in the factory for 5+ years without incident, so I
>> couldn't seem to answer the questions correctly.
>
> When I worked night shifts in a grocery store to pay for college, all
> of us on the crew drove the fork lift trucks for years without
> problems. Then someone in management decided we needed some type of
> fork lift certification.
>
> So we sat in the break room and the manager would give anyone who
> needed the answers what he thought was the correct answer.
>
> One of the questions was "How do you know if something is too heavy
> for the fork lift to pick up?
>
> Every single crew member wrote "The back wheels of the fork lift come
> off the ground when you try to pick it up".
>
> That's what happened in our real world when we unloaded pallets full
> of canned goods from the trucks.
>
> Apparently the correct answer is that you look on the fork lift to see
> what its load capacity is, then you look at the weight of the load you
> are attempting to lift. In all of the years I worked in the grocery
> store I never unloaded a pallet of pork n' beans that had a weight
> listed on it...
>
> John Post
> Sterling Heights, Michigan
>
> http://www.johnpost.us
>
> Follow me on Twitter
> https://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher
J Lee on sun 19 aug 12
I've now heard of several schools using th=3D
John Post........ hi, John,=3D0A=3D0AI've now heard of several schools usin=
g th=3D
e computer with Skype (sp)=3D0Asuccessfully.=3DA0 It's best, so I've been i=
nfor=3D
med, for small classes where=3D0Athe whole group can participate simultaneo=
us=3D
ly even though not in the=3D0Asame location.=3D0A=3D0AMy info is limited=3D=
0Abut th=3D
e teacher who told me was enthusiastically joining a Board to=3D0Aoversee t=
hi=3D
s coming =3DA0year's offerings with a close eye as to results in=3D0Aknowle=
dge =3D
gained and percentage=3DA0retained for=3DA0 specified follow-up=3D0Amonitor=
ing.=3D
=3D0A=3D0AJoyce=3D0AIn the Mojave where the scrub acreage has been teeming =
with d=3D
ogs,=3D0Aa cat or two, many rabbits (from cotton-tail to jack rabbit), a ro=
ad=3D
runner=3D0Awith young one learning the ropes, at least 75 California quail =
mo=3D
re or=3D0Aless hanging together as they pursue their usual routine plus the=
e=3D
ver=3D0Apresent and always playful dozen or so ravens. Ten year old westie,=
=3D
=3D0AMojo, runs in every 20 minutes or so to tattle on the 3 year old cairn=
..=3D
.=3D0Athey both much enjoy their roles......=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A =3D0A=
=3D0A___________=3D
_____________________=3D0A From: John Post =3D0A=
To: =3D
Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:54 AM=3D0ASu=
bjec=3D
t: Re: The US is a third world country=3D0A =3D0AThe most interesting use =
of c=3D
omputers in education that I have read=3D0Aabout is students watching the l=
ec=3D
ture/presentation at home and then=3D0Acoming into school to do the work in=
t=3D
he classroom with the teacher=3D0Athere to help them when they get stuck.=
=3DA0 =3D
There are some high schools=3D0Ain Michigan piloting this and the feedback =
so=3D
far has been positive.=3D0A=3D0AIt makes a lot more sense than listening t=
o a =3D
math lecture at school=3D0Aand then going home on your own trying to do the=
h=3D
omework.=3D0A=3D0AJohn Post=3D0ASterling Heights, Michigan=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://=
www.johnpo=3D
st.us/=3D0A=3D0AFollow me on Twitter=3D0Ahttps://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher=
=3D0A=3D0A=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Aug 19, 2012, at 11:12 AM, =
Deborah Thuman wro=3D
te:=3D0A=3D0A> Vince is right right - there are frightening things happenin=
g in=3D
=3D0A> education. NMSU, and many other universities are jumping on the on-=
=3D0A=3D
> line teaching program. I can just see, if I let myself, some=3D0A> "profe=
ss=3D
or" teaching English Lit on line. Great discussion for each=3D0A> book. Lan=
gu=3D
age programs on line are painful to think about.=3D0A>=3D0A> But... it's ch=
eap =3D
to offer on line programs. Heat in the building=3D0A> doesn't work? Who car=
e?=3D
The classes are on line. Asbestos abatement?=3D0A> Who cares? Classes are =
on=3D
line. You want to teach in your undies?=3D0A> Who cares? Classes are on li=
ne=3D
.=3D0A>=3D0A> Are you sure Joe Smith did the work himself? You've no idea w=
ho J=3D
oe=3D0A> Smith is because the class is on line.=3D0A>=3D0A> There are unive=
rsitie=3D
s which are only on line. This isn't learning.=3D0A> This is sitting in you=
r =3D
room meditating.=3D0A>=3D0A> I can't imagine learning law on line. Although=
it'=3D
s been 22 years, I=3D0A> can still remember the day, 12/6/90 when everythin=
g =3D
clicked and I=3D0A> suddenly turned into a baby lawyer. It was a Civil Proc=
ed=3D
ure class=3D0A> and I answered a question with the comment: You should have=
t=3D
hought=3D0A> of that before you filed the law suit. That would never have=
=3D0A>=3D
happened on line. I used to score my answers like a baseball game. I=3D0A>=
r=3D
emember vividly the day I hit a home run. The professor asked if=3D0A> ther=
e =3D
would have been a difference if the will had said children=3D0A> rather tha=
n =3D
issue. I glanced at the date, stuck my hand up, and said=3D0A> that it woul=
dn=3D
't have mattered because England didn't recognize=3D0A> adoption at that ti=
me=3D
. The professor was shocked, took a step back=3D0A> and the room became sil=
en=3D
t. One of my friends said the person next=3D0A> to her whispered: How did s=
he=3D
know that?=3D0A>=3D0A> Lawyers have to have continuing legal education - c=
le's=3D
. My=3D0A> department, thinking only of cost, has taken to doing cle's on l=
in=3D
e.=3D0A> What a PITA. You have to hit a button to ask questions (and this i=
s=3D
=3D0A> rather hard if you are stuck on the other end of the table from the=
=3D0A=3D
> mouse), wait until the speaker see's there's a question on the=3D0A> scre=
en=3D
, and hope you get to ask your question. But lots of money is=3D0A> saved a=
nd=3D
that's the important part.=3D0A>=3D0A> We need to bring back education, an=
d it=3D
needs to be brought back NOW.=3D0A>=3D0A> Deb Thuman=3D0A> http://debthuma=
nsblog=3D
.blogspot.com=3D0A> http://www.etsy.com/shop/DebThuman=3D0A> http://www.fac=
eboo=3D
k.com/pages/Deb-Thumans-Art-Page/167529715986
Gerholdclay on sun 19 aug 12
James,
Think of the United States as not one country but two divided by wealth. Le=
t=3D
us just for simplicity say the top twenty percent is one country and the b=
o=3D
ttom twenty percent is another country.=3D20
Well the country of the top twenty has one of the best education systems in=
t=3D
he world, outstanding health care with top ranked results and has access t=
o=3D
the best food, the best housing and the best opportunities for their child=
r=3D
en.
The bottom twenty percent has failing schools, health outcomes that make t=
h=3D
e third world look good, etc. etc.
Yes I know that some rise above their roots and some fall but this is gener=
a=3D
lly not the case. You can find well accepted measures of social/class mobi=
l=3D
ity that rank the US vey poorly. One indicator is the highest correlation =
t=3D
o a persons eventual wealth is the wealth of his parents.
For further and much more intelligent discussion suggest you read " The Pri=
c=3D
e Of Inequality" by Joseph Stiglitz. He is no crackpot and has one the Nob=
l=3D
e Prize in Economics which definitely gives him some credibility.
Paul
I=3D20
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 19, 2012, at 1:28 PM, James Freeman w=
r=3D
ote:
> Not picking on anyone, but I found the subject line of this post to be a
> bit disgusting. Perhaps it was meant only to add shock value. The US is
> not a "third world" country, neither by the term's actual
> economic/political definition nor by its colloquial usage as a pejorative
> synonym for "poor". Neither is the US heading toward such status. I do
> not understand the penchant of some in our society to bash their own
> country. If one believes one's job sucks, one seeks a different job. If
> one believes one's neighborhood sucks, one seeks to relocate to another.
> If one believes one's country sucks, well, the answer seems clear. There
> are always choices. If one chooses to compromise and stay put, then one
> has made a choice and accepted the terms of the bargain, the good along
> with the bad.
>=3D20
> As to the actual topic at hand, I think most of us agree that the current
> educational system in this country is relatively ineffective. We do not,
> however, agree on what the problem is, nor on the proper solution. Indee=
d=3D
,
> I would venture that what some see as the problem, others see as the
> solution. The idea of universal education, especially at the high school
> level and beyond, is one such factor, seen by one side as the solution to=
a=3D
> problem, but seen by another side as the cause of the problem.
>=3D20
> If we wish to tread the path of universal education, we must accept eithe=
r=3D
> a Balkanization of education based on innate ability, or a "dumbing down"
> of education to a level such that every student's head can remain above
> water. Whether we are discussing elementary education or college, the
> choices remain the same. To believe that every person has the capacity t=
o=3D
> achieve at a high academic level is as foolish as believing that every
> person has the capacity to swim like Michael Phelps.
>=3D20
> A creative person who has the time and inclination to create, will create=
,=3D
> school or no. An educable person who has the time and inclination to
> educate himself or herself will do so, school or no. School can only mak=
e=3D
> the journey quicker; it cannot reach an unwilling or unable traveler.
>=3D20
> All the best.
>=3D20
> ...James
>=3D20
> James Freeman
>=3D20
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>=3D20
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
James Freeman on sun 19 aug 12
Hi, Paul...
Many countries had, or still have, class or caste systems in which one's
social and economic station are a function of birth. I agree completely
that such a situation is disgusting, but the United States has never
cleaved to such systems. There are no barriers between the economic strata
of our society other than ones we erect for ourselves. True, some start
from a higher perch or have an easier path, but nobody is precluded from
striving to achieve whatever they desire.
Even if I were to accept your notions on the tendency of individuals not to
even try to transcend the economic strata in which they were born, such has
not been the case until very recently in our history, for the most part
from the late 60s on. The more comfortable we make poverty and ignorance,
the less incentive exists to fight like heck to get out of it.
I was born in Detroit, 7 Mile and Evergreen (not a terribly nice area), and
spent my early childhood there. I remember as a small child hearing the
sirens and seeing the smoke from the riots, and watching a tank and a troop
carrier roll down the alley. My parents had little money. They worked
fiendishly to get us out of there. My dad, who did not finish college due
to enlisting during the Korean War, worked seven days per week so we could
live in the suburbs. In fact, he built the house in the evenings after
working a full day at his regular job, teaching himself carpentry as he
went along. He was already at work when I woke up for school. He would
eat dinner with the family, but many evenings he went back to work until 8
or 9 at night. We never went on vacation, never had a nice car, and never
had fashionable clothes, but he did what he had to do to get his family
into a decent position.
The beauty of this country is that anyone who sets their mind to the task
can transcend any economic disadvantage. It is a matter of good choices
and hard work, nothing more. A privileged upbringing can certainly give a
person a head start, but that in no way precludes someone of lesser means
from achieving their own goals. It is not a zero-sum game, as many bitter
people believe. One man's success does not come at the cost of another
man's failure. My working my way through college does nothing to prevent
you from doing the same, nor does my building a successful company in any
way impact your ability to do so. Life is what you make it, and the
outcome is a function of the choices you make. Thus, ever.
Stiglitz is a brilliant and insightful economist. His incorporation of
human nature into theories of wages and employment was powerful. He also
built a good case against the prevailing Efficient Markets Hypothesis, for
which he won the prize in economics. I do not materially disagree with him
on either point, and it would be rather silly to do so. His social and
political theories, however, interest me very little, and his stature as an
economist has little bearing on his work as a sociologist. Einstein was a
brilliant physicist, but his social theories were pretty nutty.
In any case, this discussion is a diversion from the two topics I addressed
in my post, that the US is not a third world country, and that we all agree
that there is a problem with our current educational system, but we do not
agree on what that problem is, nor on what the solution is. That is all I
said. The former is a simple fact. The latter likely is too, but there is
certainly room for discussion.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Gerholdclay wrot=
e:
> James,
>
> Think of the United States as not one country but two divided by wealth.
> Let us just for simplicity say the top twenty percent is one country and
> the bottom twenty percent is another country.
>
> Well the country of the top twenty has one of the best education systems
> in the world, outstanding health care with top ranked results and has
> access to the best food, the best housing and the best opportunities for
> their children.
>
> The bottom twenty percent has failing schools, health outcomes that make
> the third world look good, etc. etc.
>
> Yes I know that some rise above their roots and some fall but this is
> generally not the case. You can find well accepted measures of
> social/class mobility that rank the US vey poorly. One indicator is the
> highest correlation to a persons eventual wealth is the wealth of his
> parents.
>
> For further and much more intelligent discussion suggest you read " The
> Price Of Inequality" by Joseph Stiglitz. He is no crackpot and has one t=
he
> Noble Prize in Economics which definitely gives him some credibility.
>
Kathy Forer on sun 19 aug 12
On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:51 PM, John Post wrote:
> Apparently the correct answer is that you look on the fork lift to see
> what its load capacity is, then you look at the weight of the load you
> are attempting to lift. In all of the years I worked in the grocery
> store I never unloaded a pallet of pork n' beans that had a weight
> listed on it...
If you were a robot you wouldn't have to read the labels.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/business/new-wave-of-adept-robots-is-chan=
g=3D
ing-global-industry.html
> The old system sprawls across almost half a million square feet. The shel=
v=3D
es are loaded and unloaded around the clock by hundreds of people driving p=
a=3D
llet jacks and forklifts. At peak times in the evening, the warehouse is a =
c=3D
acophony of beeping and darting electric vehicles as workers with headsets =
a=3D
re directed to cases of food by a computer that speaks to them in four lang=
u=3D
ages.
>=3D20
> The new system is much smaller, squeezed into only 30,000 square feet at =
t=3D
he far end of the warehouse and controlled by just a handful of technicians=
.=3D
They watch over a four-story cage with different levels holding 168 "rover=
"=3D
robots the size of go-carts. Each can move at 25 miles an hour, nearly as =
f=3D
ast as an Olympic sprinter.
>=3D20
> Each rover is connected wirelessly to a central computer and on command w=
i=3D
ll race along an aisle until it reaches its destination - a case of food to=
r=3D
etrieve or the spot to drop one off for storage. The robot gathers a box by=
e=3D
xtending two-foot-long metal fingers from its side and sliding them underne=
a=3D
th. It lifts the box and pulls it to its belly. Then it accelerates to the =
f=3D
ront of the steel cage, where it turns into a wide lane where it must conte=
n=3D
d with traffic - eight robots are active on each level of the structure, wh=
i=3D
ch is 20 aisles wide and 21 levels high.
>=3D20
> =3D46rom the aisle, the robots wait their turn to pull into a special ope=
n l=3D
ane where they deposit each load into an elevator that sends a stream of fo=
o=3D
d cases down to a conveyor belt that leads to a large robot arm.
>=3D20
> About 10 feet tall, the arm has the grace and dexterity of a skilled supe=
r=3D
market bagger, twisting and turning each case so the final stack forms an e=
i=3D
ght-foot cube. The software is sophisticated enough to determine which robo=
t=3D
should pick up which case first, so when the order arrives at the supermar=
k=3D
et, workers can take the cases out in the precise order in which they are t=
o=3D
go on the shelves.
A ray of light at the end of the article:
> Some jobs are still beyond the reach of automation: construction jobs tha=
t=3D
require workers to move in unpredictable settings and perform different ta=
s=3D
ks that are not repetitive; assembly work that requires tactile feedback li=
k=3D
e placing fiberglass panels inside airplanes, boats or cars; and assembly j=
o=3D
bs where only a limited quantity of products are made or where there are ma=
n=3D
y versions of each product, requiring expensive reprogramming of robots.
Kathy Forer
wew.foreverink.com
Randall Moody on sun 19 aug 12
For clarification of the discussion.
The term *Third World* arose during the Cold
War to
define countries that remained non-aligned with either
capitalism
and NATO (which along with its allies
represented the First World ), or
communism and the Soviet
Union (which
along with its allies represented the Second
World
). This definition provided a way of broadly categorizing the nations of
the earth into three groups based on social, political, and economic
divisions. Due to many of the Third World countries being extremely poor,
it became a stereotype such that people commonly refer to undeveloped
countries as "third world countries," often used in a
pejorative
way. Over the last few decades, the term 'Third World' has been used
interchangeably with the Global Southouth>
and Developing Countries> to
describe poorer countries that have struggled to attain steady economic
development.
The US is not a third world country. To say so is simply meaningless
hyperbole or improper use of the term.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Ben Morrison on sun 19 aug 12
Well Said James Freeman. That's my usual response to the=3DA0deconstruction=
is=3D
m=3DA0mentality as well. There are plenty of third world countries out ther=
e =3D
with vibrant=3DA0agrarian cultures. There is no need to deconstruct America=
n =3D
society.=3D0A=3D0ABasic education could stop two to four years earlier in o=
ur s=3D
ystem. Students could pick a focus at the 9th year, or the 11th year and sp=
=3D
end those remaining years working on that focus to be better prepared for s=
=3D
ociety. Effectively turning high school into more of a community college sy=
=3D
stem. It works in England. At least we could make this type of school an op=
=3D
tion.=3DA0=3D0A=3D0AI personally got very little out of my high school expe=
rience=3D
. For the first two years of high school I had to redo what I did in Jr. Hi=
=3D
gh. Then when I went for my transfer degree at a community college I had to=
=3D
redo everything I'd just done in high school. Essentially spending eight y=
=3D
ears working on primarily general education that was the same exact materia=
=3D
l. I would have done much better in my first career path, had I been offere=
=3D
d a two year focus program for years 11 and 12. It also would be further in=
=3D
centive to those who drop out of high school. Instead of taking more of the=
=3D
same my Senior year, I dropped out and took the GED tests. There was nothi=
=3D
ng for me in high school. The only reason why more kids don't do this is be=
=3D
cause of a stigma perpetuated by the high schools that the GED and the High=
=3D
School diploma is different. Only for a few select things are those kids g=
=3D
oing to find doors closed to them. Otherwise anyone with the skills to pass=
=3D
the
GED and go on to College won't be hurt in doing so in the vast majority of=
=3D
professions and circles.=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A____________________=
____________=3D
=3D0A From: James Freeman =3D0ATo: Clayart@LS=
V.CE=3D
RAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:28 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: The=
US =3D
is a third world country=3D0A =3D0ANot picking on anyone, but I found the s=
ubje=3D
ct line of this post to be a=3D0Abit disgusting.=3DA0 Perhaps it was meant =
only=3D
to add shock value.=3DA0 The US is=3D0Anot a "third world" country, neithe=
r by=3D
the term's actual=3D0Aeconomic/political definition nor by its colloquial =
us=3D
age as a pejorative=3D0Asynonym for "poor".=3DA0 Neither is the US heading =
towa=3D
rd such status.=3DA0 I do=3D0Anot understand the penchant of some in our so=
ciet=3D
y to bash their own=3D0Acountry.=3DA0 If one believes one's job sucks, one =
seek=3D
s a different job.=3DA0 If=3D0Aone believes one's neighborhood sucks, one s=
eeks=3D
to relocate to another.=3D0AIf one believes one's country sucks, well, the=
a=3D
nswer seems clear.=3DA0 There=3D0Aare always choices.=3DA0 If one chooses t=
o comp=3D
romise and stay put, then one=3D0Ahas made a choice and accepted the terms =
of=3D
the bargain, the good along=3D0Awith the bad.=3D0A=3D0AAs to the actual to=
pic at=3D
hand, I think most of us agree that the current=3D0Aeducational system in =
th=3D
is country is relatively ineffective.=3DA0 We do not,=3D0Ahowever, agree on=
wha=3D
t the problem is, nor on the proper solution.=3DA0 Indeed,=3D0AI would vent=
ure =3D
that what some see as the problem, others see as the=3D0Asolution.=3DA0 The=
ide=3D
a of universal education, especially at the high school=3D0Alevel and beyon=
d,=3D
is one such factor, seen by one side as the solution to a=3D0Aproblem, but=
s=3D
een by another side as the cause of the problem.=3D0A=3D0AIf we wish to tre=
ad t=3D
he path of universal education, we must accept either=3D0Aa Balkanization o=
f =3D
education based on innate ability, or a "dumbing down"=3D0Aof education to =
a =3D
level such that every student's head can remain above=3D0Awater.=3DA0 Wheth=
er w=3D
e are discussing elementary education or college, the=3D0Achoices remain th=
e =3D
same.=3DA0 To believe that every person has the capacity to=3D0Aachieve at =
a hi=3D
gh academic level is as foolish as believing that every=3D0Aperson has the =
ca=3D
pacity to swim like Michael Phelps.=3D0A=3D0AA creative person who has the =
time=3D
and inclination to create, will create,=3D0Aschool or no.=3DA0 An educable=
per=3D
son who has the time and inclination to=3D0Aeducate himself or herself will=
d=3D
o so, school or no.=3DA0 School can only make=3D0Athe journey quicker; it c=
anno=3D
t reach an unwilling or unable traveler.=3D0A=3D0AAll the best.=3D0A=3D0A..=
.James=3D
=3D0A=3D0AJames Freeman=3D0A=3D0A"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you fo=
olish."=3D
=3D0A-Euripides=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com=3D0Ahttp://www.f=
lickr.co=3D
m/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resource=
s
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 19 aug 12
Hi James, all,
Below...amid...
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Freeman"
> Not picking on anyone, but I found the subject line of this post to be a
> bit disgusting.
I thought it was amusing...and, somewhat disquietingly true in some ways.
> Perhaps it was meant only to add shock value.
I imagine so...and of course, it is not 'true' literally. But the statement
does suggest we look at some things with a little less complaisency.
> The US is
> not a "third world" country, neither by the term's actual
> economic/political definition nor by its colloquial usage as a pejorative
> synonym for "poor".
Yes...but, the mentality of the US has been slowly assuming a 3rd world kin=
d
of tone for some while now.
> Neither is the US heading toward such status.
Well...It is headed to it's own variation or version or rendition of it.
> I do
> not understand the penchant of some in our society to bash their own
> country.
How can that be hard to understand?
Why may not one object to what has been done, and is being done to 'their
country'?
> If one believes one's job sucks, one seeks a different job. If
> one believes one's neighborhood sucks, one seeks to relocate to another.
Well, not everyone is financially well-enough off, or has the time to spare=
,
or is quite in a position,
to do either of those things.
They are already too overwhelemed in just trying to keep from loosing what
they have to even begin to learn to think straight anymnore.
> If one believes one's country sucks, well, the answer seems clear.
What answer is that?
Move to some other country which also sucks? Or which sucks worse?
> There
> are always choices.
Well, sure...but sometimes those 'choices' are a function of conditions in
which no 'good' choice is possible.
I saw quite a few people I knbow loose ther Jobs, loose their homes, loose
their
Cars, marriage falls apart then, and, well, it is kind of hard for me to
know where to begin on lecturing them about their 'choices'.
At what point in the long continuities of things, should other or better or
different choices have been made?
> If one chooses to compromise and stay put, then one
> has made a choice and accepted the terms of the bargain, the good along
> with the bad.
Pretty near everyone is enormously comprimsed already...even if they are
used to
it, even if they insist on it for others...so, seems to me, the question is
how much more compromised, and, in
what ways, can one still somehow live with.
> As to the actual topic at hand, I think most of us agree that the current
> educational system in this country is relatively ineffective.
I have always thought so.
> We do not,
> however, agree on what the problem is, nor on the proper solution.
How could we? Especially when 'we' are products of it? We are
it...personified...
> Indeed,
> I would venture that what some see as the problem, others see as the
> solution.
Just because everyone has an opinion, does not mean anyone in particular is
qualified or understands enough about the subject, for their opinion to mea=
n
anything in any other way than that it is their unqualified or naive or
myopic or uninformed opinion.
> The idea of universal education, especially at the high school
> level and beyond, is one such factor, seen by one side as the solution to
> a
> problem, but seen by another side as the cause of the problem.
Just what was or is the 'problem' supposed to be? Which so called
'universal education' had/has
sought to remedy?
That might be a good place to begin.
> If we wish to tread the path of universal education, we must accept eithe=
r
> a Balkanization of education based on innate ability, or a "dumbing down"
> of education to a level such that every student's head can remain above
> water.
I think there are other options available, other 'choices' which are
possible, if we did wish to have 'Universal Education'.
It could all have been done, or it all could be done, structured, financed,
managed, imagined and
operated, very differently
than it has.
> Whether we are discussing elementary education or college, the
> choices remain the same. To believe that every person has the capacity to
> achieve at a high academic level is as foolish as believing that every
> person has the capacity to swim like Michael Phelps.
What I recall of my own incarceration in the 'educational system', is that
anyone 'like' Michael Phelps would have had his legs broken, and for the
teachers and administration to
let the
broken Bones mend badly and crooked and bent and with some good Nerve Damag=
e
also if possible... so that the Teachers could then
flatter themselves on how much they care and wish to help him learn to swim
"their" way.
"If I can change ONE LIFE!!!!" ( I WILL break their Legs to do it! So they
then MUST learn it MY WAY!!!!" and, never, ever, outwsim ME! ) etc.
Meaning, if I can destroy their minds and character and sense wholesome sel=
f
respect, convert them into being dependent and stupid and fawning and
appeasing, and needy, if I can make them stupid and neurotic and contrived
and
'adapted' and
damaged enough, then, THEN, they will need "me"...and need what I am
selling. Thus to be fit for what comes after.
I saw how it all worked...I had a front row Seat.
> A creative person who has the time and inclination to create, will create=
,
> school or no.
Sometimes, in some ways, yeah...but, mostly "no" I think...there is a lot
more to it than that...a lot more dimensions which go unassayed.
> An educable person who has the time and inclination to
> educate himself or herself will do so, school or no.
Yes, but this also depends on how they have been interfered with, and, to
what magnitude...and in what ways.
Pick anyone, and, under the operatively 'right' conditions, and even in
merely a few hours, they can be
caused to be so damanged and interfered with, that nothing will ever be the
same for them again...and or, whatever they can learn from there, will be
very different than it might have been otherwise.
A Chair, some Duct Tape, an out of the way Room, some Ketamine and or
Scopolamine, maybe a Bucket of Salt Water, a Car Battery and some Jumper
Cables, and, well, you can "change" anyone and change them for keeps.
Other methods of course are slower, some might say subtler, but, no less
insideous or lasting.
in their results.
> School can only make
> the journey quicker; it cannot reach an unwilling or unable traveler.
What journey is that?
The journey which has eventuated to where we all are now?
I never wanted to go "there" in the first place!
Why would I?
Why would anyone if still in posession of their wits?
Cui bono?
Who defines what for whom here with all this?
I do not trust anyone to define it for me.
Especially those who already have tried to...and who did and continue to
enforce it with violence.
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
Love,
Phil
L v
Joel Browne on mon 20 aug 12
I'm unclear what this subject has to do with clay, ceramics, pottery eyc.=
=3D
Also, please don't forget many people are not from the US.
John Post on mon 20 aug 12
Joel,
The conversation morphed from one about adjunct faculty teaching in
colleges to the death of the American college to wherever it ended up
at now. Clay art tends to do that. Of course conversations in real
life tend to do that too...
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.johnpost.us
Follow me on Twitter
https://twitter.com/UCSArtTeacher
On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:07 AM, Joel Browne wrote:
> I'm unclear what this subject has to do with clay, ceramics, pottery
> eyc.
>
> Also, please don't forget many people are not from the US.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 21 aug 12
The 'Tesla' Car now -
http://vimeo.com/43083157
GM's Chevrolet Division, manufacturing the 1936 Chevrolet -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DHPpTK2ezxL0
Interesting comparison I think...
Lots more people involved in the processes and in actually running the
Machines in the 1936 version...no 'automation' as such...but, definitely, a
sort of Grace and a sobering inexorable, authoratative pace/cadence.
Chevrolet made just about 1,000,000 Cars in 1936.
If you parked the entire Chevrolet Production from 1936, Bumper to Bumper,
they would reach from San Francisco to New York City.
That just staggers me...
Nothing 'third world' there anyway...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Forer"
To:
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: The US is a third world country
On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:51 PM, John Post wrote:
> Apparently the correct answer is that you look on the fork lift to see
> what its load capacity is, then you look at the weight of the load you
> are attempting to lift. In all of the years I worked in the grocery
> store I never unloaded a pallet of pork n' beans that had a weight
> listed on it...
If you were a robot you wouldn't have to read the labels.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/business/new-wave-of-adept-robots-is-chan=
ging-global-industry.html
> The old system sprawls across almost half a million square feet. The
> shelves are loaded and unloaded around the clock by hundreds of people
> driving pallet jacks and forklifts. At peak times in the evening, the
> warehouse is a cacophony of beeping and darting electric vehicles as
> workers with headsets are directed to cases of food by a computer that
> speaks to them in four languages.
>
> The new system is much smaller, squeezed into only 30,000 square feet at
> the far end of the warehouse and controlled by just a handful of
> technicians. They watch over a four-story cage with different levels
> holding 168 "rover" robots the size of go-carts. Each can move at 25 mile=
s
> an hour, nearly as fast as an Olympic sprinter.
>
> Each rover is connected wirelessly to a central computer and on command
> will race along an aisle until it reaches its destination - a case of foo=
d
> to retrieve or the spot to drop one off for storage. The robot gathers a
> box by extending two-foot-long metal fingers from its side and sliding
> them underneath. It lifts the box and pulls it to its belly. Then it
> accelerates to the front of the steel cage, where it turns into a wide
> lane where it must contend with traffic - eight robots are active on each
> level of the structure, which is 20 aisles wide and 21 levels high.
>
> From the aisle, the robots wait their turn to pull into a special open
> lane where they deposit each load into an elevator that sends a stream of
> food cases down to a conveyor belt that leads to a large robot arm.
>
> About 10 feet tall, the arm has the grace and dexterity of a skilled
> supermarket bagger, twisting and turning each case so the final stack
> forms an eight-foot cube. The software is sophisticated enough to
> determine which robot should pick up which case first, so when the order
> arrives at the supermarket, workers can take the cases out in the precise
> order in which they are to go on the shelves.
A ray of light at the end of the article:
> Some jobs are still beyond the reach of automation: construction jobs tha=
t
> require workers to move in unpredictable settings and perform different
> tasks that are not repetitive; assembly work that requires tactile
> feedback like placing fiberglass panels inside airplanes, boats or cars;
> and assembly jobs where only a limited quantity of products are made or
> where there are many versions of each product, requiring expensive
> reprogramming of robots.
Kathy Forer
wew.foreverink.com
Ric Swenson on wed 22 aug 12
Mel,
my first...at age 13 was a 41 Chrysler...fifty bucks...owner thought the =
engine was cooked...My Dad and I replaced the water pump....we cleaned it u=
p and sold it for $250...with which I bought my first rifle... the 41 was b=
lack and beautiful.
ah kids...
after 43 other cars trucks and motorcycles. My Dad worked for Internationl=
Harvester for 38 years....I first drove a cub cadet and a farmall...then =
a Scout and a Travelall....and a lot of Wayne schoolbuses and later some N=
avistar 18 wheelers...and some Hyster loaders and caterpillars too. My trai=
ning was good. My uncle taught me about cats when I was 16....he helped bui=
ld the Al-Can in 1941-3...a cat skinner.
High school...a 38 Buick... running boards!! a Studebaker Lark 1958...=
learned about body work from that car ..... body work... fun....
then
a beautiful 46 chevy bought by the owner in 1946 and still had the original=
service stickers on the drivers windows when I bought it from that nice bl=
ind man in 1968 at Ernie's Enco on South Tacoma Way.... where I pumped gas =
from 10pm--2 am when in college...$850. he paid in 1946...and I Paid the sa=
me in 1968...he was happy and so was I...I sold it in Anchorage for $3000..=
..in 1971.
...a 65 corevette.red and white.....insurance TOO expensive!!
a yellow 4 speed corvair...
dangerous?
a couple of t-birds...a couple of porches....a 356 c which navigated the =
turnagain highway to skiing in record time at Alyeska and another less des=
ireable one...a few fiat sport spyders, a volvo p-444......I spent hours re=
building th engine and carbs.....rebuilt the engine from scratch...and lear=
ned SU carbs.............my favorite HS car.
.a few chevy muscle cars... 1961 ( a 283 )and 1962 ( a 348....and 1963c=
onvertible...red...awsome..... white top with a 348....
a ford...actually two fords.. a worthless pinto and a small pick-up...worth=
less.......which I thought were all quite worthless...
Fords were never my favorites...
a gmc 4x4. Good truck...heavy duty............. a Mercedes....
never a thought about being third world............
benz 76 heavy car in diesel,
a few masdas.
a few VW bettles and VW vans...up and down the AlCan Highway.... 7 times..=
..
and a few subarus in Vermont...... 4x4 needed....and other assorted cars..=
.and honda cycles...and a 750 norton and an old wwII Indian bike.... a tr=
iumph TR 4 A...one of my favorites.... Painted it Jaguar burgundy...from th=
e flat white it was..........fiat spyders were the best cars....fun to driv=
e....the porches were the most costly to maintain.
my motor history. but more details could be seen with my photos....
never satisfied .....
except with the Mazda MPV...a perfect car....for me. 12 years a record. th=
e best car I ever owned. Comfortable...useful..roomy...a dream to drive.
never owned a fork lift...but operated them...on the docks of Anchorage and=
the pottery at ZBennington...and more...with........... and..... without o=
sha cert....from 1968- 2003.... never crashed a forklift... or dropped a lo=
ad....trained well. OJT...practice.
never a thought about being third world. we in the USA left the third worl=
d about 1750-1850...IMHO.
China entered the third world in 1949 and has yet to emerge...but they are =
creeping forward...as we speak...or type....
now I could care less about a car...or truck...my bicycle of 1969 vintage i=
s enough.
ric
Ric Swenson, B.F.A, M.F.A.
Ceramist, Artist and Teacher.
Jing De Zhen Ceramic Institute
Jing De Zhen City,
Jiang Xi Province
China
Mobile: 86-13767818872
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:50:28 -0700
> From: pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET
> Subject: Re: The US is a third world country
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>
> The 'Tesla' Car now -
>
>
> http://vimeo.com/43083157
>
>
> GM's Chevrolet Division, manufacturing the 1936 Chevrolet -
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DHPpTK2ezxL0
>
>
>
> Interesting comparison I think...
>
> Lots more people involved in the processes and in actually running the
> Machines in the 1936 version...no 'automation' as such...but, definitely,=
a
> sort of Grace and a sobering inexorable, authoratative pace/cadence.
>
> Chevrolet made just about 1,000,000 Cars in 1936.
>
> If you parked the entire Chevrolet Production from 1936, Bumper to Bumper=
,
> they would reach from San Francisco to New York City.
>
>
> That just staggers me...
>
> Nothing 'third world' there anyway...
>
>
>
>
Randall Moody on wed 22 aug 12
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Ric Swenson w=
rote:
> ...we in the USA left the third world about 1750-1850...IMHO.
>
NO!!! "Third World" has a specific definition which the USA does not fit
into. See my post with the definition of the term.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 22 aug 12
Right...
There was no such designation as '3rd world' till the so called 'cold war',
nor had there ever been any need for such a distinction before that.
I myself dthe terms 1st world, 2nd world, 3rd world, to cost more than they
are worth...and to be very sloppy terms at best.
Trying to apply the terms retroactively does not really work well.
Was ancient Greece a "3rd world" Country? Was ancient Aegypt?
Not worth it, and a bad fit to try.
But, since the terms have insinuated themselves into most everyone's casual
vocabulary, they take on a life of their own so-to-speak.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall Moody"
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Ric Swenson
> wrote:
>
>> ...we in the USA left the third world about 1750-1850...IMHO.
>>
>
> NO!!! "Third World" has a specific definition which the USA does not fit
> into. See my post with the definition of the term.
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
> http://wrandallmoody.com
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