mel jacobson on sun 26 aug 12
my apprentice's dad is a perfectionist.
he is a contractor and fine builder..anyone would
want bill to work for them.
the other day we were driving someplace (he is a friend and
former student.) and he was talking about what a hard
job he had just finished.....`and it was now perfect`.
i said...`bill, how many extra hours did that job take you?`
he laughed....`about twenty, and no one got billed for those hours,
well, except me.`
i repeated my concept of how expensive it is to be a perfectionist.
he agreed. so some customer got a lot more than they paid for...and
probably did not have a clue/one way or the other. the number of people
that really can see or understand fine craftsmanship has dwindled.
my argument is always....do the job the customer paid for, do not give them
twenty times more, just to make yourself happy. if they want perfect, they
should pay for perfect.
mel
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart page below:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
http://www.21stcenturykilns.com/
Robert Harris on sun 26 aug 12
Although this may seem like a facetious comment, I mean in a truly thought
provoking way.
Where does perfectionism end, and crappy craftsmanship begin?
Vince Pitelka on sun 26 aug 12
Robert Harris wrote:
"Where does perfectionism end, and crappy craftsmanship begin?"
Hi Robert -
I think that the answer to this question would be unique to each art/craft
medium and to each "style" or "school" involving a different aesthetic
approach, and certainly unique to each person's personal opinions. In many
areas, perfectionism could be viewed as a flaw because of how it can sap th=
e
life energy out of the work. On the other hand, a piece we see as tight an=
d
technically perfect might resonate with a vibrant life and energy. From my
own point of view and personal taste, I see a lot more energy and excitemen=
t
in work that is very well-made but is loose and gestural than in work that
is very tightly controlled. There are certainly exceptions, but in
generally the loose, gestural work excites me a lot more. And I am not
talking about floppy-loose. I am referring to the work of Michael Simon,
Suze Lindsay, Ron Meyers, Josh DeWeese, Ellen Shankin, Matt Long, and so
many other contemporary potters. A couple of potters who do very tight wor=
k
that excites me are Jeff Oestreich and Pete Pinnell.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Robert Harris on sun 26 aug 12
Hi Vince - My question about where does perfectionism end, and shoddy
craftsmanship begin, was really in response to Mel's story about his
apprentice's builder father, rather than the original post about
perfectionism in art.
Secondly it seems to me that many people on here (especially those
favouring the loose gestural look) are equating perfectionism with
tightness. While this is somewhat understandable, to me they are not in the
least synonymous.
Presumably those making loose pots also consign some of them to the hammer
- which would imply that they are not good/perfect enough - despite the
fact that they are loose. The corollary of course is that as Snail said,
tightness is a lot less forgiving than looseness, and therefore one might
expect a greater percentage of hammer worthy stuff. Nonetheless, my
personal definition of words, does not equate precision with perfectionism,
and I think that that should also be part of this discussion.
Robert
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Robert Harris wrote:
> "Where does perfectionism end, and crappy craftsmanship begin?"
>
> Hi Robert -
> I think that the answer to this question would be unique to each art/craf=
t
> medium and to each "style" or "school" involving a different aesthetic
> approach, and certainly unique to each person's personal opinions. In ma=
ny
> areas, perfectionism could be viewed as a flaw because of how it can sap
> the
> life energy out of the work. On the other hand, a piece we see as tight
> and
> technically perfect might resonate with a vibrant life and energy. From =
my
> own point of view and personal taste, I see a lot more energy and
> excitement
> in work that is very well-made but is loose and gestural than in work tha=
t
> is very tightly controlled. There are certainly exceptions, but in
> generally the loose, gestural work excites me a lot more. And I am not
> talking about floppy-loose. I am referring to the work of Michael Simon,
> Suze Lindsay, Ron Meyers, Josh DeWeese, Ellen Shankin, Matt Long, and so
> many other contemporary potters. A couple of potters who do very tight
> work
> that excites me are Jeff Oestreich and Pete Pinnell.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>
>
>
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Vince Pitelka on sun 26 aug 12
Mel told the story about the contractor/builder who is a perfectionist in
the quality and finish of his work, and that's certainly an area where I
have huge respect for perfectionism. But I think there is a truth here tha=
t
can apply to any area of handwork that benefits from fine craftsmanship.
For someone who simply always practices fine craftsmanship, it becomes
ingrained, automatic, instinctive, and it doesn't necessarily take that muc=
h
longer. Consider this - people who do shoddy work are often dissatisfied
with their career and don't tend to work very efficiently. If they don't
care about the quality of their work, then they probably don't really care
how long it takes to get it done. On the other hand, someone who loves
their work and practices fine craftsmanship often works very efficiently
while still taking the care to do things well and right, and they will have
the conscience and integrity to get the work done within the time promised.
In the latter case, it really can be done very efficiently.
I have a dear friend named Tom Garban who lives up in far Northern
California on the Klamath River on Highway 96 thirty-five miles west of I-5=
.
He is a very fine cabinet-maker and his favorite work is kitchen cabinets,
but things are depressed along the Klamath. All the sawmills have long
since shut down, and a big segment of the population has away in search of
work. The schools all have less than 25% of the enrollment they had 25
years ago. So, Tom will take on any sort of construction job - building
decks, any sort of remodeling, new construction, cabinets, furniture. He
does it all equally well, charges very reasonable rates, works very
efficiently, and always puts his signature design touches on the work that
make it stand out from other builders. He really loves what he does, and h=
e
is the most popular carpenter/builder/cabinetmaker in the region and always
has plenty of work, even in this economy.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 26 aug 12
Hi Mel, all,
Well, being that way IS it's own 'reward'...Lol...
Right now for me, I spent most of yesterday ( Saturday, which might
otherwise have been my day off, or been a day of Payed Work ) re-doing some
Lay-out for some interior Walls for a Carpentry Gig I was hired for.
Old Building, very uneven old Concrete Slab Floor...tall Ceiling of 'open'
2x12 Joists on 16 inch centers, and, all the Joist Bottoms are uneven,
varying by as much as 3/4rs of an inch and everything in-be-tween...and...
I am hired to ( do a lot of things, which for the moment, includes, to )
Build the Walls which will define two large Bathrooms...one being about
twenty feet long and ten wide, and, the other, about fifteen feet long and
ten wide.
I have a Helper who Works for my Customer, and once I had all the Base
Plates installed, glued and bolted down and I was satisfied with them, he
borrowed my Plumb Bob to establish the locations of the primary Top Plates
while I was off working on something else ( which primary Top Plates, I was
then to secure using long grain Wedges I had made, to permit them to be
Level while up-against Joist Bottoms which are in a fairly decent Pitch ).
and...well, he flubbed the Plumb Bob use and had marks for all the primary
Top Plates which were off by anywhere from 1/8th to 3/8ths.
And darn it, on Friday we harriedly got all the primary Top Plates up and
wedged and level and fastened and so on, based in my helper's use of the
Plumb Bob, and, then, I noticed - things seemed 'off', so I grabbed the
Plumb Bob and started checking things and Eeeeeesh, things were not right.
So, Saturday, I go in, on my own Time, on my own Dime, and re-do all of tha=
t
so everything is within about 1/16th or so.
Old Building, Perimeter Masonry Walls are wavey and out of plumb in or out
by at least 1/2 an inch over their height, walls also somewhat in and out
horizontally, Floors very much uneven and Hill and Dale...and...
Some while back I got all the 10 and 12 Foot Lumber for the Bathrooms and
for using as the Studs, got it all Stacked and Stickered and covered it ove=
r
the top leaving the ends open for it to equalize and dry more, and, I will
use the best 2x4s of the Bunch ( I over bought by a factor of three knowing
I will use the rest for other elements of the Project which can use shorter
pieces and or which will use pieces I have Milled out of those ) having any
slight bows facing in from the ling Hallways, which is between the two
Bathrooms.
Once done, especially with the old Building itself being so wankey - these
Bathrooms will appear almost somehow 'Magical' for being entirely Plumb,
Straight, and true, and, to me, that is a big part of why this is worth the
trouble, even if some of the 'trouble' is on me.
At the end of the day, far as Carpenty Jobs go, there is nothing else to
fall asleep feeling good about, other than that I like what I do or did, an=
d
I like how I do or did it.
Same as anythiung else, really.
The way my Mind is built, I can not spend the pay making up in satisfaction
for how I do not like what I do, or for how I do not like how I do or did
it.
I have to like what I do and how I do it, or else I will not do it.
This is one ( of many reasons ) I have always been 'self employed'. Lol...
And the Pay is not all that much anyway, far as what everything costs in
2012 goes.
So, my 'solution' is just as that, and, was since I was a kid - I have to d=
o
it how I like it TO be, or else I am not interested in doing it at all.
This never seemed to me that I was a 'perfectionist'.
Rather, things, to be worth doing at all, need to be somehow respected,
there needs to be enough deference to somehow breathe Life into the
endevor...things to me somehow have to be at least 'Good enough', and, my
own notion of 'Good Enough' tends to co-respond to a higher Standard than
other people generally subscribe to.
Like that...
So, in a way, I am very 'selfish'...I will spend my own time, with no Pay,
on a Paying Gig, to have things come out so I am happy with them...and or t=
o
correct errors I feel I was responsible for even if done by someone working
under me who I shough have been watching more closely.
Now that I think of it, to me, this IS a hefty part of what I always felt
was the 'American Dream' - being perosnally responsible to a point of
insistence or 'altruism' to have things be 'right', and not having to go to
Prison because of it.
Without that, just what do we have?
Love,
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
> my apprentice's dad is a perfectionist.
> he is a contractor and fine builder..anyone would
> want bill to work for them.
>
> the other day we were driving someplace (he is a friend and
> former student.) and he was talking about what a hard
> job he had just finished.....`and it was now perfect`.
>
> i said...`bill, how many extra hours did that job take you?`
> he laughed....`about twenty, and no one got billed for those hours,
> well, except me.`
>
> i repeated my concept of how expensive it is to be a perfectionist.
> he agreed. so some customer got a lot more than they paid for...and
> probably did not have a clue/one way or the other. the number of people
> that really can see or understand fine craftsmanship has dwindled.
>
> my argument is always....do the job the customer paid for, do not give
> them
> twenty times more, just to make yourself happy. if they want perfect,
> they
> should pay for perfect.
> mel
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart page below:
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
> http://www.21stcenturykilns.com/
ronroy@CA.INTER.NET on sun 26 aug 12
Hi Robert,
Seems everyone is talking about form and finish here - You have
introduced another aspect which is more to the point in my view.
I tend not to discriminate that way - finding work I like at every
degree of loose or tight.
I do tend to think of the subject more in terms of the technical - do
the glazes fit - does it function well. Too bad more of us don't
strive for that kind of perfection.
RR
Quoting Robert Harris :
> Although this may seem like a facetious comment, I mean in a truly though=
t
> provoking way.
>
> Where does perfectionism end, and crappy craftsmanship begin?
>
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