pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 28 aug 12
Hi James, all,
Ye'd relay'd -
> Well stated, Randall. Below is one of my favorite lines from Daniel
> DeFoe's "Robinson Crusoe":
> "...how little repining there would be among mankind at any condition of
> life, if people would rather compare their condition with those that were
> worse, in order to be thankful, than be always comparing them with those
> which are better, to assist their murmurings and complainings."
Where ( or is it only some abstraction of 'what'? ) would be 'better' I
wonder?
Switzerland in a lot of ways would likely be 'better'...( if likely also
slowly 'sinking' also ).
After that, I feel hard pressed to come up with much, or, to come up with
anything, far as any actual places go anyway...or as far as 'globally'
better would go...even if some places have some amenities/dimensions which
are clearly 'better' than 'here'.
Here's the 'American Dream' as far as I can tell about it presently -
If one is already fairly wealthy and from India or Pakistan and has
'business experience', one can come here and buy up Motels, smaller Hotels=
,
and 7-11 Franchises.
If one is from India or Pakistan and has a Medical Degree, one can readily
get a License to practice here.
If one is a moderately or fairly accomlpished Criminal from anywhere else,
and, has learned some 'english', one can come here with intact compadres,
or, find some soon enough, and, do very well.
If one has no real ethics or sensibility or conscience beyond being driven
by the the installation of normative psychosis and it's 'drivers' and
paradigmes, and all one is driven to is 'money' first, and the means is
incidental merely, and if one is a good bullshitter and good with
duck-n-weave and paper shuffle games and shell games and keeping 'two sets
of books' and so on ( ie" "business acumen" as it really is ) one can find
what every other kindred moron or grifter or schmuck calls 'success' ( ie:
"$") ..ie: making the World just that much worse for one's having ever live=
d
and shatted on it, at all.
This is often referenced on our 'List' here - that "success" means "$", and
that is about as far as these 'dreamers' CAN 'dream'.
What do any of these people ever Do with the 'Money'?
Why, they invest it!!!
Or...
If you are from Mexico and wanting relief from the exigencies and
discomforts of the 'Drug Cartels', or other disappointments as tend to 'com=
e
from above' or tend to have tacit sanction ( and protection ) from above,
you can come here and find basic kinds of Work, or as may be according to
your Skills and Experience anyway, and, find and make a decent enough way o=
f
Life, considering...live four, seven or ten to-a-House, and, pool resources
and provide help, services, favors, referals and so on with your already
in-place Community of mostly like-same compadres, friends, relatives and
their/your then extended Community of other Mexicans.
Everyone knows "Who is Who' in all this. And anyone offending the
sensibilities of, or who may try and exploit or mistreat others in the
Community is soon found out and called out and snubbed or ( dealt with ) as
may be, depending.
Having made some good Friends not too long ago, who are from rural Mexico, =
I
am now on the fringe of this larger Mexican extended Community, and sharing
in some of it's amenities in both giving and receiving, and, it is about
five thousand times BETTER than any god damned worthless buch of chin
rubbing sideways glancing false face Mooks of what otherwise was or remains
as any so called 'american community' I ever encountered.
Nor have I in my entire Life ever known anyone who even HAD any 'community'
to speak of here in the US, unless they WERE themselves literally, actually=
,
from Mexico, India, Pakistan, North Africa, Italy, Greece, Latvia or Armeni=
a
or whatever. Where...they all have 'eachother' here in the US, and along
with it, all of whatever eachother's Occupations, positions, skills,
connections, Life experience, Traditions, identity, etc.
Maybe we forget that that IS how things were for our Ancestors when they
came here back when - they had 'eachother'.
We - their descendents - for the most part, have and have had, no one.
Maybe the Mormons overall have actual Community also, but, they then are
about the ONLY 'americans' I know of who do.
Somehow 'americans' so to speak totally lost Commnunity, lost the kind of
Mind to even have one at all...and, with that, lost all that goes with it,
and, this was one horendous loss, too. Instead, they have corporations,
institutions, co-workers at their 'job'...or 'Sports Teams' and
Brands-of-Beer to stand in for the loss.
What exactly is the 'american dream' supposed to be, when one lives in a
Vaccuum of no community? When all one has are
Sports Teams' and particular Brands of 'beer' or 'political partys' and
their disgusting fake actors? to stand in for ( what Historically, had
always been, until recently, the entire gamut of basic and vital and
elastic ) solidarities and connection? Or when one's immediate or practical
'community' ( really, only ) consists of , and has never NOT other than
consisted of, the usual variety of low grade and motley internacine
preditors or parasites and insinuators into 'job' and 'promotion'
conditions, or other in effect wan or insular go-alongs who have no 'real'
community and never will...and have nothing to offer one.attitude wiese
first, especially, if they did?
Oye...
All of this is much more clear to me now, than it ever was before...along
with my appreciation of loss for everything which no 'community' has so lon=
g
occasioned for endless 'americans'...and to or for their capacity to 'dream=
'
of anything WORTH 'dreaming', other than the ubiquitous abstraction and
excision and dessication of everything, the ubiquitous miasmas of the commo=
n
amentia and everyone adapting to it in order to exploit or parasite upon it
as just more of it ( "Get an Education!!!) , and the ubiquity of delusion
and insular sociopathic go-along opportunistic doltishness passing for
'success'.
Oh well...
Eeeeeeeesh...
So much for Jonathan Chapman and all them Apple 'Seeds'...
Love,
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Freeman"
Well stated, Randall. Below is one of my favorite lines from Daniel
DeFoe's "Robinson Crusoe":
"...how little repining there would be among mankind at any condition of
life, if people would rather compare their condition with those that were
worse, in order to be thankful, than be always comparing them with those
which are better, to assist their murmurings and complainings."
Or this, from those great British philosophers, Monty Python:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL2Wx230gYJw
Be well.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Randall Moody
wrote:
> John Locke wrote that governments are instituted to secure people's right=
s
> to =91life, liberty, and property.=92 Jefferson replaced 'property' with
> 'pursuit of happiness'. I think that most people forget or ignore that it
> is 'pursuit' which is to say that you are free to pursue it but you are
> not
> guaranteed to attain it. It is my opinion that the freedom to pursue
> happiness is the true "American Dream". If people stopped worrying more
> about what or how much more the next person over has more people would be
> happier.
>
>
mel jacobson on tue 28 aug 12
travel the world, go everywhere, live in places
for awhile, observe and then come home to america
and you will then realize what the dream is.
you will never know what it is if you stay home
and read newspapers and watch tv.
and, if national geographic had scratch and sniff pages
no one would travel.
`think calcutta on a day it is 101F. and the fires are
burning with bodies.` you smell calcutta from the air
as you land. the cabin starts to smell at about 2000 feet.
or, as the teacher in the lounge said one day...`oh mel
you fib a lot.` for someone that has never been out
of hennepin county, well she knew. she lived the dream.
from a farm in owatanna, mn, daddy paid for her to attend gustavus
adolphus
college, she never had a job, daddy found her an apartment
in hopkins and she taught english for 25 years...swam and read
all summer in her condo pool. never had a boy friend, never a child.
but, she was
dogmatic that kids did not know how to buckle down. real life is the best
teacher.
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart page below:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
http://www.21stcenturykilns.com/
Curtis Adkins on tue 28 aug 12
When you fly into Seoul, S. Korea and you see the scope of "real" poverty
as well as the stench of open sewers, America and the freedom it represents
become a fact as opposed to an idea. Academic pursuits do not get you there
by the web or a text book. It is hard to put it in words. We are spoiled
and very detached from their daily hand-to-mouth grind! I am very proud of
the ROK's success in the last two decades! Competition is great!
On Aug 28, 2012 6:21 AM, "mel jacobson" wrote:
> travel the world, go everywhere, live in places
> for awhile, observe and then come home to america
> and you will then realize what the dream is.
>
> you will never know what it is if you stay home
> and read newspapers and watch tv.
>
> and, if national geographic had scratch and sniff pages
> no one would travel.
> `think calcutta on a day it is 101F. and the fires are
> burning with bodies.` you smell calcutta from the air
> as you land. the cabin starts to smell at about 2000 feet.
>
> or, as the teacher in the lounge said one day...`oh mel
> you fib a lot.` for someone that has never been out
> of hennepin county, well she knew. she lived the dream.
> from a farm in owatanna, mn, daddy paid for her to attend gustavus
> adolphus
> college, she never had a job, daddy found her an apartment
> in hopkins and she taught english for 25 years...swam and read
> all summer in her condo pool. never had a boy friend, never a child.
> but, she was
> dogmatic that kids did not know how to buckle down. real life is the best
> teacher.
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart page below:
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/**clayart.htmlclayart.html>
> >
> http://www.**21stcenturykilns.com/
>
Gerholdclay on tue 28 aug 12
A lot of the discussion on Clayart recently has peripherally been about the=
p=3D
ossibilities of sucess in our society and the effects of hard work etc. on =
s=3D
ocial and financial mobility. A lot of the discussion tried to expand indiv=
i=3D
dual experiences to the overall condition of society and to sort of imply t=
h=3D
at I did it years ago and therefore everyone can and it is their fault if t=
h=3D
ey don't work hard enough to succeed. While individual experience is intere=
s=3D
ting it really doesn't have much relevance to the actual condition in our s=
o=3D
ciety.
If you are interested in elevating the discussion I respectfully suggest do=
i=3D
ng some research into the Gini coefficient. =3D20
Paul
Sent from my iPad=3D
ksavino@BUCKEYE-EXPRESS.COM on tue 28 aug 12
I fully agree with mel: traveling around the planet makes you realize how l=
uxurious even the meanest American standard of living is in comparison. Who=
le communities live in deserts, in ghettos with scrounged scrap metal house=
s, on garbage dumps, in refugee camps. Open ditches for sewage are the norm=
, not the exception.
A friend spent three years in the peace corps, in a place where women walke=
d an hour for clean water every day (at risk of ambush and rape). She had s=
ome serious culture shock problems when she returned home. She remembers wa=
tching her neighbor hose down his driveway with clean drinking water, gobsm=
acked about something she never would have noticed before.
We can't forget, though, that our well insulated lifestyle also keeps us fr=
om noticing some pretty dire poverty in our own country. Mel's teacher frie=
nd would have been enlightened by riding with me when I was doing folklore =
research about swamp culture, isolated mountain communities, midwives and m=
oonshiners. I met people who lived in abandoned busses, in ancient shotgun =
shacks where the wind whistled through the walls, in shanties with no runni=
ng water. Babies were born that nobody knew about, with poor nutrition and =
no medical attention, some disabled or inbred. Illiteracy and infant mortal=
ity stats in isolated regions of the US are alarming. Deliverance isn't jus=
t a movie. The poorest schools are a sorry shadow of what we think schools =
should be.
Inner city communities can be just as bad, and hiding in plain sight. There=
are "food deserts" in urban blight areas for people who don't drive: no gr=
oceries, no produce. Just fast food drive throughs and gas station snack fo=
ods.
Last year I taught the parents of kids at our lowest-ranking, academic eme=
rgency public school, where teachers had to bring their own chalk and paper=
. Many kids were unwashed, unfed, bruised. Some were born drug or alcohol =
affected. Even a bad school was a blessing, as they would be fed, everyone=
was sober and nobody would hit them. Two of my adult students walked to cl=
ass from the battered womens shelter, one from a homeless shelter.
I'd like to think that any of those kids could grow up to be president of a=
Fortune 500 company, but so many cards are stacked against them from birth=
. I don't think any politician has a magic fix, as the problem has been dee=
ply rooted, for generations.
Still, we need to consider these people when we feel self-congratulatory ab=
out how well we take care of our own, compared to the rest of the world. T=
here are still American families who have to choose between groceries, and =
medicine for their kids.
No matter where we live, it's good to step out of our comfort zone. My hat =
is off to young people who spend summers -- through churches, community org=
s, habitat for humanity, etc -- building schools and planting gardens in po=
verty stricken communities. They are forever vaccinated against spoiled ent=
itlement in the process.
Yours
Kelly in Ohio... my favorite teaching job is Tuesday's: making clay stuff f=
or sale with the mentally disabled adults at Shared Lives Studio on St. Cla=
ir, downtown Toledo. http://shop.lottindustries.com/artists.html These ar=
tists do no posing, no posturing, no competing, and are truly happy for eac=
h other when somebody makes a great piece or a profitable sale. Spending t=
ime resenting what others have keeps us from appreciating our own riches...
J Lee on tue 28 aug 12
You make me laugh; you make me cry.=3DA0 So glad you're back, Kelly.=3DA0 W=
hat=3D
=3D0Aa remarkable woman you are!=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AJoyce=3D0AIn the Mojave dese=
rt of Cali=3D
fornia U.S.A.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AJoyce (Mom, GMom, GG Mom, Aunt, Sis)=3D0A =
=3D0A=3D0A____=3D
____________________________=3D0A From: "ksavino@BUCKEYE-EXPRESS.COM" in=3D
o@BUCKEYE-EXPRESS.COM>=3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Tuesday,=
Aug=3D
ust 28, 2012 7:37 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: The American Dream=3D0A =3D0AI fully=
agree=3D
with mel: traveling around the planet makes you realize how luxurious even=
=3D
the meanest American standard of living is in comparison. Whole communitie=
=3D
s live in deserts, in ghettos with scrounged scrap metal houses, on garbage=
=3D
dumps, in refugee camps. Open ditches for sewage are the norm, not the exc=
=3D
eption.=3D0A=3D0AA friend spent three years in the peace corps, in a place =
wher=3D
e women walked an hour for clean water every day (at risk of ambush and rap=
=3D
e). She had some serious culture shock problems when she returned home. She=
=3D
remembers watching her neighbor hose down his driveway with clean drinking=
=3D
water, gobsmacked about something she never would have noticed before.=3D0=
A=3D
=3D0AWe can't forget, though, that our well insulated lifestyle also keeps =
us=3D
from noticing some pretty dire poverty in our own country. Mel's teacher f=
=3D
riend would have been enlightened by riding with me when I was doing folklo=
=3D
re research about swamp culture, isolated mountain communities, midwives an=
=3D
d moonshiners. I met people who lived in abandoned busses, in ancient shotg=
=3D
un shacks where the wind whistled through the walls, in shanties with no ru=
=3D
nning water. Babies were born that nobody knew about, with poor nutrition a=
=3D
nd no medical attention, some disabled or inbred. Illiteracy and infant mor=
=3D
tality stats in isolated regions of the US are alarming. Deliverance isn't =
=3D
just a movie. The poorest schools are a sorry shadow of what we think schoo=
=3D
ls should be.=3D0A=3D0AInner city communities can be just as bad, and hidin=
g in=3D
plain sight. There are "food deserts" in urban blight areas for people who=
=3D
don't drive: no groceries, no produce. Just fast food drive throughs and g=
=3D
as station snack foods.=3D0A=3D0ALast year I taught the parents of kids at =
our =3D
lowest-ranking, academic emergency public school, where teachers had to bri=
=3D
ng their own chalk and paper.=3DA0 Many kids were unwashed, unfed, bruised.=
S=3D
ome were born drug or alcohol affected.=3DA0 Even a bad school was a blessi=
ng=3D
, as they would be fed, everyone was sober and nobody would hit them. Two o=
=3D
f my adult students walked to class from the battered womens shelter, one f=
=3D
rom a homeless shelter.=3D0A=3D0AI'd like to think that any of those kids c=
ould=3D
grow up to be president of a Fortune 500 company, but so many cards are st=
=3D
acked against them from birth. I don't think any politician has a magic fix=
=3D
, as the problem has been deeply rooted, for generations.=3D0A=3D0AStill, w=
e ne=3D
ed to consider these people when we feel self-congratulatory about how well=
=3D
we take care of our own, compared to the rest of the world.=3DA0 There are=
s=3D
till American families who have to choose between groceries, and medicine f=
=3D
or their kids.=3D0A=3D0ANo matter where we live, it's good to step out of o=
ur c=3D
omfort zone. My hat is off to young people who spend summers -- through chu=
=3D
rches, community orgs, habitat for humanity, etc -- building schools and pl=
=3D
anting gardens in poverty stricken communities. They are forever vaccinated=
=3D
against spoiled entitlement in the process.=3D0A=3D0AYours=3D0AKelly in Oh=
io... =3D
my favorite teaching job is Tuesday's: making clay stuff for sale with the =
=3D
mentally disabled adults at Shared Lives Studio on St. Clair, downtown Tole=
=3D
do. http://shop.lottindustries.com/artists.html=3DA0 These artists do no p=
os=3D
ing, no posturing, no competing, and are truly happy for each other when so=
=3D
mebody makes a great piece or a profitable sale.=3DA0 Spending time resenti=
ng=3D
what others have keeps us from appreciating our own riches...
tony clennell on tue 28 aug 12
Kelly et all: I heard American author Toni Morrison talking about the
American Dream this morning. She said when Tommy Jefferson first
crafted the Statute of Independence it read "Life, liberty and the
pursuit of property. One of his handlers advised Tommy that perhaps
that wasn't the right choice of words and they changed it to
happiness. Property =3D3Dhappiness.
I love the US and many of my best friends live there. I do always
breathe a sigh of relief when I cross over the Peace Bridge though. I
feel safer at home here in Canada and feel more confident of it being
a place to grow old as an artist. My US friends probably breathe that
same sigh when they return home.
I had a young guy from West Virginia digging up my basement- backed up
sewer line- a real sh%$@y job. He worked like a dawg. We made him
lunch out at our courtyard. Kept him in cold water etc, etc. He sent
us an email the day after saying how we were so nice to work for and
if we needed any work done to give him a call. You bet we will. He
fell in luv with a Canuck and is working under the table for cash till
he gets his papers.
I think Immigration Canada should start recruiting Americans. They do
have a strong work ethic, appreciate the work, love living here and
we don't have to toilet train them.
Tony for Prime Minister
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 10:37 AM, wrote:
> I fully agree with mel: traveling around the planet makes you realize how=
=3D
luxurious even the meanest American standard of living is in comparison. W=
=3D
hole communities live in deserts, in ghettos with scrounged scrap metal hou=
=3D
ses, on garbage dumps, in refugee camps. Open ditches for sewage are the no=
=3D
rm, not the exception.
>
> A friend spent three years in the peace corps, in a place where women wal=
=3D
ked an hour for clean water every day (at risk of ambush and rape). She had=
=3D
some serious culture shock problems when she returned home. She remembers =
=3D
watching her neighbor hose down his driveway with clean drinking water, gob=
=3D
smacked about something she never would have noticed before.
>
> We can't forget, though, that our well insulated lifestyle also keeps us =
=3D
from noticing some pretty dire poverty in our own country. Mel's teacher fr=
=3D
iend would have been enlightened by riding with me when I was doing folklor=
=3D
e research about swamp culture, isolated mountain communities, midwives and=
=3D
moonshiners. I met people who lived in abandoned busses, in ancient shotgu=
=3D
n shacks where the wind whistled through the walls, in shanties with no run=
=3D
ning water. Babies were born that nobody knew about, with poor nutrition an=
=3D
d no medical attention, some disabled or inbred. Illiteracy and infant mort=
=3D
ality stats in isolated regions of the US are alarming. Deliverance isn't j=
=3D
ust a movie. The poorest schools are a sorry shadow of what we think school=
=3D
s should be.
>
> Inner city communities can be just as bad, and hiding in plain sight. The=
=3D
re are "food deserts" in urban blight areas for people who don't drive: no =
=3D
groceries, no produce. Just fast food drive throughs and gas station snack =
=3D
foods.
>
> Last year I taught the parents of kids at our lowest-ranking, academic e=
=3D
mergency public school, where teachers had to bring their own chalk and pap=
=3D
er. Many kids were unwashed, unfed, bruised. Some were born drug or alcoho=
=3D
l affected. Even a bad school was a blessing, as they would be fed, everyo=
=3D
ne was sober and nobody would hit them. Two of my adult students walked to =
=3D
class from the battered womens shelter, one from a homeless shelter.
>
> I'd like to think that any of those kids could grow up to be president of=
=3D
a Fortune 500 company, but so many cards are stacked against them from bir=
=3D
th. I don't think any politician has a magic fix, as the problem has been d=
=3D
eeply rooted, for generations.
>
> Still, we need to consider these people when we feel self-congratulatory =
=3D
about how well we take care of our own, compared to the rest of the world. =
=3D
There are still American families who have to choose between groceries, an=
=3D
d medicine for their kids.
>
> No matter where we live, it's good to step out of our comfort zone. My ha=
=3D
t is off to young people who spend summers -- through churches, community o=
=3D
rgs, habitat for humanity, etc -- building schools and planting gardens in =
=3D
poverty stricken communities. They are forever vaccinated against spoiled e=
=3D
ntitlement in the process.
>
> Yours
> Kelly in Ohio... my favorite teaching job is Tuesday's: making clay stuff=
=3D
for sale with the mentally disabled adults at Shared Lives Studio on St. C=
=3D
lair, downtown Toledo. http://shop.lottindustries.com/artists.html These =
=3D
artists do no posing, no posturing, no competing, and are truly happy for e=
=3D
ach other when somebody makes a great piece or a profitable sale. Spending=
=3D
time resenting what others have keeps us from appreciating our own riches.=
=3D
..
--=3D20
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Lee on tue 28 aug 12
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:21 AM, tony clennell w=
=3D
rote:
>One of his handlers advised Tommy that perhaps
>that wasn't the right choice of words and they changed it to
>happiness. Property =3D3Dhappiness
Do you have a reference? I can't find it. Also, Monroe was a
protege and Adams was a cohort. Neither were "handlers" who worked
with Jefferson on the document. Here is a jpeg of the most
original draft surviving.
> I think Immigration Canada should start recruiting Americans. They do
> have a strong work ethic, appreciate the work, love living here and
> we don't have to toilet train them.
> Tony for Prime Minister
Folks SHOULD travel, but what you see will probably be color
by your current prejudices.
I've only been to Canada, Japan, Korea and Great Britain.
All of them currently seem to be better at the American Dream than the
USA is. Especially in measures of education, infrastructure,
healthcare, economic inequality, childhood mortality and poverty.
I lived in the Boondocks in Japan and had optic fiber internet
for less than I pay for cable internet, at 10 times the speed! I
hear that S. Korea is better wired than Japan. Seoul is super
prosperous.
Traveling in England was enjoyable. You don't see the
countryside filled with Texas style ticky-tacky McMansions and/or
WallMart Mega Stores. They don't allow these monstrosities!
Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
--=3D20
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Martin Rice on tue 28 aug 12
On Aug 28, 2012, at 4:42 PM, Lee wrote:
>
> Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
> world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
Throughout this entire discussion of the American Dream that has been my th=
ought all along. And, as you point out, in that kind of comparison we absol=
utely do not come out on top by almost any measure other than military powe=
r. Well, we are the richest country in the world in terms of GDP, but third=
in the world in income per capita, after Norway and Sweden. And let's not =
even begin to talk about education and healthcare.
Thanks,
Martin
Robert Harris on tue 28 aug 12
Hey Lee,
While I don't have a reference for the Jefferson thing, I too had heard
that originally he wanted to say Life, Liberty and Land. (To complete the
alliteration.)
I freely admit this could be one of those urban myths.
Robert
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Lee wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:21 AM, tony clennell
> wrote:
>
> >One of his handlers advised Tommy that perhaps
> >that wasn't the right choice of words and they changed it to
> >happiness. Property =3D3Dhappiness
>
> Do you have a reference? I can't find it. Also, Monroe was a
> protege and Adams was a cohort. Neither were "handlers" who worked
> with Jefferson on the document. Here is a jpeg of the most
> original draft surviving.
>
> > I think Immigration Canada should start recruiting Americans. They do
> > have a strong work ethic, appreciate the work, love living here and
> > we don't have to toilet train them.
> > Tony for Prime Minister
>
> Folks SHOULD travel, but what you see will probably be color
> by your current prejudices.
>
> I've only been to Canada, Japan, Korea and Great Britain.
> All of them currently seem to be better at the American Dream than the
> USA is. Especially in measures of education, infrastructure,
> healthcare, economic inequality, childhood mortality and poverty.
>
> I lived in the Boondocks in Japan and had optic fiber internet
> for less than I pay for cable internet, at 10 times the speed! I
> hear that S. Korea is better wired than Japan. Seoul is super
> prosperous.
>
> Traveling in England was enjoyable. You don't see the
> countryside filled with Texas style ticky-tacky McMansions and/or
> WallMart Mega Stores. They don't allow these monstrosities!
>
> Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
> world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
>
>
> --
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97t=
hat is, =3D
"The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Nefsigh@AOL.COM on tue 28 aug 12
Perhaps it was Life, Liberty and Lotto for all.. makes sense.
=3D20
=3D20
In a message dated 8/28/2012 4:35:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =3D20
robertgharris@GMAIL.COM writes:
Hey Lee,
While I don't have a reference for the Jefferson thing, I too had heard
that originally he wanted to say Life, Liberty and Land. (To complete the
alliteration.)
I freely admit this could be one of those urban myths.
Robert
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Lee wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:21 AM, tony clennell =3D
>
> wrote:
>
> >One of his handlers advised Tommy that perhaps
> >that wasn't the right choice of words and they changed it to
> >happiness. Property =3D3Dhappiness
>
> Do you have a reference? I can't find it. Also, Monroe was a
> protege and Adams was a cohort. Neither were "handlers" who worked
> with Jefferson on the document. Here is a jpeg of the most
> original draft surviving.
>
> > I think Immigration Canada should start recruiting Americans. They do
> > have a strong work ethic, appreciate the work, love living here and
> > we don't have to toilet train them.
> > Tony for Prime Minister
>
> Folks SHOULD travel, but what you see will probably be color
> by your current prejudices.
>
> I've only been to Canada, Japan, Korea and Great Britain.
> All of them currently seem to be better at the American Dream than the
> USA is. Especially in measures of education, infrastructure,
> healthcare, economic inequality, childhood mortality and poverty.
>
> I lived in the Boondocks in Japan and had optic fiber internet
> for less than I pay for cable internet, at 10 times the speed! I
> hear that S. Korea is better wired than Japan. Seoul is super
> prosperous.
>
> Traveling in England was enjoyable. You don't see the
> countryside filled with Texas style ticky-tacky McMansions and/or
> WallMart Mega Stores. They don't allow these monstrosities!
>
> Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
> world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
>
>
> --
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=3DC3=3DB3g ar chul an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn trina c=
h=3DC3=3DA9ile=3D
"=3DE2=3D80=3D94that is, "The
> land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
-- =3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
Randall Moody on tue 28 aug 12
John Locke wrote that governments are instituted to secure people's rights
to =3D91life, liberty, and property.=3D92 Jefferson replaced 'property' wit=
h
'pursuit of happiness'. I think that most people forget or ignore that it
is 'pursuit' which is to say that you are free to pursue it but you are not
guaranteed to attain it. It is my opinion that the freedom to pursue
happiness is the true "American Dream". If people stopped worrying more
about what or how much more the next person over has more people would be
happier.
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:39 PM, wrote:
> Perhaps it was Life, Liberty and Lotto for all.. makes sense.
>
>
> In a message dated 8/28/2012 4:35:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> robertgharris@GMAIL.COM writes:
>
> Hey Lee,
>
> While I don't have a reference for the Jefferson thing, I too had heard
> that originally he wanted to say Life, Liberty and Land. (To complete th=
=3D
e
> alliteration.)
>
> I freely admit this could be one of those urban myths.
>
> Robert
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Lee wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:21 AM, tony clennell <
> tony.clennell@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >One of his handlers advised Tommy that perhaps
> > >that wasn't the right choice of words and they changed it to
> > >happiness. Property =3D3Dhappiness
> >
> > Do you have a reference? I can't find it. Also, Monroe was a
> > protege and Adams was a cohort. Neither were "handlers" who worked
> > with Jefferson on the document. Here is a jpeg of the most
> > original draft surviving.
> >
> > > I think Immigration Canada should start recruiting Americans. They d=
=3D
o
> > > have a strong work ethic, appreciate the work, love living here an=
=3D
d
> > > we don't have to toilet train them.
> > > Tony for Prime Minister
> >
> > Folks SHOULD travel, but what you see will probably be color
> > by your current prejudices.
> >
> > I've only been to Canada, Japan, Korea and Great Britain.
> > All of them currently seem to be better at the American Dream than the
> > USA is. Especially in measures of education, infrastructure,
> > healthcare, economic inequality, childhood mortality and poverty.
> >
> > I lived in the Boondocks in Japan and had optic fiber internet
> > for less than I pay for cable internet, at 10 times the speed! I
> > hear that S. Korea is better wired than Japan. Seoul is super
> > prosperous.
> >
> > Traveling in England was enjoyable. You don't see the
> > countryside filled with Texas style ticky-tacky McMansions and/or
> > WallMart Mega Stores. They don't allow these monstrosities!
> >
> > Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
> > world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Lee Love in Minneapolis
> > http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
> >
> > "Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D=
97that i=3D
s, "The
> > land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
> > within itself." -- John O'Donohue
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
--=3D20
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
James Freeman on tue 28 aug 12
Well stated, Randall. Below is one of my favorite lines from Daniel
DeFoe's "Robinson Crusoe":
"...how little repining there would be among mankind at any condition of
life, if people would rather compare their condition with those that were
worse, in order to be thankful, than be always comparing them with those
which are better, to assist their murmurings and complainings."
Or this, from those great British philosophers, Monty Python:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3DL2Wx230gYJw
Be well.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Randall Moody wro=
=3D
te:
> John Locke wrote that governments are instituted to secure people's right=
=3D
s
> to =3D91life, liberty, and property.=3D92 Jefferson replaced 'property' w=
ith
> 'pursuit of happiness'. I think that most people forget or ignore that it
> is 'pursuit' which is to say that you are free to pursue it but you are n=
=3D
ot
> guaranteed to attain it. It is my opinion that the freedom to pursue
> happiness is the true "American Dream". If people stopped worrying more
> about what or how much more the next person over has more people would be
> happier.
>
>
Cwiddershins on wed 29 aug 12
On Aug 28, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Martin Rice wrote:
> absolutely do not come out on top by almost any measure
Martin, we also have created less social mobility in the last 30 years. I=
t=3D
is much harder for young people than it was for us Boomers. The cost of c=
o=3D
llege may not be worth it for many students. I only had $6,000.00 in stud=
e=3D
nt debt at the end of college. Kids today can have hundreds of thousands =
i=3D
n school debt at the end of their degree. It is a greater problem here t=
h=3D
an in the rest of the first world & hurts our global competitiveness. =3D2=
0
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DC3=3DB3g ar chul an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn trina ch=
=3DC3=3DA9ile"=3DE2=3D
=3D80=3D94that is, "The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue --sent from my iPod=3D
Gerholdclay on wed 29 aug 12
But that is the good thing Martin. We may have lost our moral leadership a=
f=3D
ter three unnecessary and brutal wars but we can still still rely on our a=
b=3D
ility to kick the crap out of everyone else. Although some of these dumb p=
e=3D
asants won't knuckle under even after we destroy most of their country.
Paul
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 28, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Martin Rice wrote:
> On Aug 28, 2012, at 4:42 PM, Lee wrote:
>>=3D20
>> Seems fairer to compare our country to other Western and 1st
>> world countries, rather than the 3rd world and Calcutta.
>=3D20
> Throughout this entire discussion of the American Dream that has been my =
t=3D
hought all along. And, as you point out, in that kind of comparison we abso=
l=3D
utely do not come out on top by almost any measure other than military powe=
r=3D
. Well, we are the richest country in the world in terms of GDP, but third =
i=3D
n the world in income per capita, after Norway and Sweden. And let's not ev=
e=3D
n begin to talk about education and healthcare.
>=3D20
> Thanks,
> Martin
James Freeman on wed 29 aug 12
One of the great economic minds of the 20th Century:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=3D1&feature=3Dendscreen&v=3Dg-o0kD9f6wo
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Randall Moody on wed 29 aug 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgMLjkt87ICo&feature=3Drelated
This was the one that I liked of his.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 2:01 PM, James Freeman m
> wrote:
> One of the great economic minds of the 20th Century:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=3D1&feature=3Dendscreen&v=3Dg-o0kD9f6wo
>
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
>
> "Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
> -Euripides
>
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
> http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
>
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
| |
|
