Dan Saultman on fri 20 mar 98
I have just installed some atmospheric burners that are designed for
natural gas. They fired up nicely when test fired but I recall the same
burner racing like a jet engine at the school I taught at, but they had
a 2" gas pipe feeding the burner. The same burners on my set-up burn
rather casually and I haven't gotten to the point of doing a test firing
for temperature yet. My pipe is the standard residential 3/4" and I
think the pressure is why the burners don't "roar". I understand the
subject of constriction, and have very few points that could be refined.
So I have a few questions, thanks for looking them over and your help or
thoughts.
1. If the gas orifices were made slighly larger and forced air provided
to the burners, would they produce more heat?
2. If the manifold feeding the two burners were of a larger diameter,
say 2"...then reduced back down to 3/4" would this add more available
gas volume to the burners?
3. Are there devices that increase the weak residential gas
pressure...like there are for weak water pressure?
4. If the nozzle dia. of the burners were reduced would a more aggresive
flame be produced, and would that mean higher temperature capabilities?
Running larger dia. pipe from the service point to the studio is not an
option I wish to choose.
Thanks again...just worrying in advance...If I reach cone 10 in 8 hrs.
or so with my test firing all of this might be a moot point. But the
questions might be ones commonly asked by others too.
Dan Saultman in Colorado
--
For a Glimpse of Cartoons, Pottery and Computer Graphics
as well as some insight into who Dan Saultman is,
please visit my web page at:
http://www.concentric.net/~clay-art/Index.shtml
Vince Pitelka on sat 21 mar 98
>Running larger dia. pipe from the service point to the studio is not an
>option I wish to choose.
Dan -
If your kiln is of reasonable size, and as I remember it is, then running a
larger pipe from the service point to the studio is the only option you
have. There is no way you can extract more BTUs from a small pipe. You
most likely need a larger gas meter and regulator, and larger supply pipe.
The only other option is to run the kiln on propane instead, if you are in
an area where you can get a propane tank. But natural gas is cheaper, so
the cost of installing a larger meter/regulator and running a larger supply
line to the kiln is the most viable option..
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Fred Paget on sat 21 mar 98
Interesting - this is exactly the same problem I am facing and since I have
researched it a little further along the line I may as well share it with
you.
My preferred location for a gas kiln is about 110 feet as the pipe runs
from the gas meter. There is a buried 3/4 inch line that goes through a lot
of landscaping, a bamboo patch and under a plum tree to just in back of the
spot I have picked that runs on up to my greenhouse about 50 feet further
out from the meter. I want to tap into that line and get gas for the kiln.
The kiln I want is to be between 20 and 40 cubic feet. Talking to a plumber
contractor friend resulted in him going to a table in a book he has ( and I
later found the same table in Fred Olson's Kiln Book) and the table says
that at normal residential gas pressure you can only get enough gas to flow
through a pipe of that size to run about a 5 cubic foot kiln.(Around
100,000 BTU). Since my greenhouse uses 50,000 BTU when the furnace is
running the pipe is maxed out. Next I talked with Marc Ward on the phone
and I asked him if there was any kind of a pump that could pressurize the
line so I could get more gas through it and he allowed as there is such a
beast but he said not to mess with one as I would get into a lot of
trouble. He suggested that I try to get the gas company to give me a higher
pressure of 3 pounds per square inch.(psi) The regular pressure is very low
around 0.25 psi I think (it is 7 inches of water pressure - a different
unit of pressure).
Ok, so I called the gas company and after a lot of phone tag I finally got
through to an engineering type who knew what I wanted. She said that I
could get the pressure raised to 2 psi and that they would charge about
$200 to do this and I would have to provide all the new stuff required in
the line (two regulators - one for the house, one for the kiln and the
greenhouse, the services of a plumber and a pressure test on the old line
and the new installation plus permit and inspection.) The regulators reduce
the 2 psi to 7 inches water pressure.
Here is how it works. The gas from the street comes in at 30 psi and goes
to the gas meter which has a regulator belonging to the gas company that
reduces it to 2 psi. The gas pipe goes out from the meter toward the
greenhouse. A branch goes off to the house and one regulator I provide
reduces it to residential pressure for the house. The other branch goes
through the buried 3/4 inch pipe toward the greenhouse and the kiln site.
At the kiln site the pipe is tapped using approved methods involving a left
- right threaded coupling since pipe unions can not be buried, a code
requirement. Another regulator reduces the pressure from 2 psi to
residential pressure and the gas feeds on to the greenhouse as before and a
1 1/2 inch branch line feeds the kiln 10 feet away.
Two alternatives are to dig a new trench and install a 1 1/2 inch line from
the kiln site to the gas meter or to use propane if it is allowed in the
area where you live.
The answers to your other questions are mostly "no", as I see it, but I
will leave it to others to be more specific.
As I sit here thinking about it, it may be cheaper and a lot neater to just
get out the shovel and start digging to put in the 1 1/2 inch line!.
Fred Paget
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have just installed some atmospheric burners that are designed for
>natural gas. They fired up nicely when test fired but I recall the same
>burner racing like a jet engine at the school I taught at, but they had
>a 2" gas pipe feeding the burner. The same burners on my set-up burn
>rather casually and I haven't gotten to the point of doing a test firing
>for temperature yet. My pipe is the standard residential 3/4" and I
>think the pressure is why the burners don't "roar". I understand the
>subject of constriction, and have very few points that could be refined.
>So I have a few questions, thanks for looking them over and your help or
>thoughts.
>
>1. If the gas orifices were made slighly larger and forced air provided
>to the burners, would they produce more heat?
>
>2. If the manifold feeding the two burners were of a larger diameter,
>say 2"...then reduced back down to 3/4" would this add more available
>gas volume to the burners?
>
>3. Are there devices that increase the weak residential gas
>pressure...like there are for weak water pressure?
>
>4. If the nozzle dia. of the burners were reduced would a more aggresive
>flame be produced, and would that mean higher temperature capabilities?
>
>Running larger dia. pipe from the service point to the studio is not an
>option I wish to choose.
>
>Thanks again...just worrying in advance...If I reach cone 10 in 8 hrs.
>or so with my test firing all of this might be a moot point. But the
>questions might be ones commonly asked by others too.
>
>Dan Saultman in Colorado
From Fred Paget, Marin County, California
Stephen Mills on sat 21 mar 98
Dan,
The following is a UK perspective, Talk to Mark Ward the US Burner Man
as well.
Steve
Bath
UK
In message , Dan Saultman writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have just installed some atmospheric burners that are designed for
>natural gas. They fired up nicely when test fired but I recall the same
>burner racing like a jet engine at the school I taught at, but they had
>a 2" gas pipe feeding the burner. The same burners on my set-up burn
>rather casually and I haven't gotten to the point of doing a test firing
>for temperature yet. My pipe is the standard residential 3/4" and I
>think the pressure is why the burners don't "roar". I understand the
>subject of constriction, and have very few points that could be refined.
>So I have a few questions, thanks for looking them over and your help or
>thoughts.
>
>1. If the gas orifices were made slighly larger and forced air provided
>to the burners, would they produce more heat?
>1) Not in my experience, forced air is bad news as far as control is
concerned, it's all or nothing at all. I prefer the subtlety of natural
aspiration!
>2. If the manifold feeding the two burners were of a larger diameter,
>say 2"...then reduced back down to 3/4" would this add more available
>gas volume to the burners?
>2) No but it would even out any minor imbalances in the supply, which
low-pressure natural gas burner systems with several bends in can have.
>3. Are there devices that increase the weak residential gas
>pressure...like there are for weak water pressure?
>3) Only getting the Gas Company or your friendly local Gas Engineer to
alter the supply pressure on the main regulator. Mains supply comes to
your house at a higher pressure than you get(12"wg + in the UK), and is
then governed down (6"- 8"wg) for household use.
>4. If the nozzle dia. of the burners were reduced would a more aggresive
>flame be produced, and would that mean higher temperature capabilities?
>4) In order: Yes & No
>Running larger dia. pipe from the service point to the studio is not an
>option I wish to choose.
>You shouldn't need to.
Remember the old saw "more equals less". The smallest increase
consistant with a rise in temperature is what to aim for. Too much =
flames everywhere & plummeting temperature!
I always run bigger burners than calculations reccomend because I like
asoft flame rather than a busen burner flame.
>Thanks again...just worrying in advance...If I reach cone 10 in 8 hrs.
>or so with my test firing all of this might be a moot point. But the
>questions might be ones commonly asked by others too.
>
>Dan Saultman in Colorado
>--
>For a Glimpse of Cartoons, Pottery and Computer Graphics
>as well as some insight into who Dan Saultman is,
>please visit my web page at:
>http://www.concentric.net/~clay-art/Index.shtml
>
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home e-mail: stevemills@mudslinger.demon.co.uk
work e-mail: stevemills@bathpotters.demon.co.uk
own website: http://www.mudslinger.demon.co.uk
BPS website: http://www.bathpotters.demon.co.uk
KLeSueur on sun 22 mar 98
In a message dated 3/21/98 9:14:10 AM, you wrote:
<the kiln site to the gas meter or to use propane if it is allowed in the
area where you live.>>
In another life I lived and made pots in south Texas. The owner of the nursery
where my kiln was located decided to tap into my 1 1/2" line to run his
greenhouse heaters. The first time he tried to fire them up (during the
freeze of '83), they would't work ( a 3/4 " line running over two acres. I
told him it wouldn't work. But what did I know. I'm a woman.)
The gas company solution was to hang a 20 lb meter to get enough pressure to
his heaters (we were sitting above a 10" main gas line). The put a regulater
on my line to step down to 8ounces of pressure. NOT A GOOD SOLUTION. Even
with the regulator, lighting the burners was a frightening experience and I
live in fear that the regulator would fail.
My advice............ dig that new trench and put in a 1 1/2" line.
Kathi LeSueur
it's snowing in Ann Arbor
DIANA PANCIOLI, ASSOC. PROF. on sun 22 mar 98
Dan:
I agree with Vince. I built two natural gas kilns. Great fuel. The
supply pipe from the meter needs to be large. You don't want to choke the
supply down until you get closer to the kiln and the burners. My supply
would furnish a million BTU's--more than I needed by almost half.
Diana
EMU
Grimmer on tue 24 mar 98
Hi,
Ask the gas company if they would be willing to cover part of the
expense of a new gas line. After all, you will be buying lots more of
their product, right?
When I built the kiln at my new studio, they came out with this big
machine with a five foot knife on it. At the bottom of the blade was
a wire 'Chinese finger trick' into which the technicians inserted the
end of a 1.5" plastic gas line. The machine vibrated the knife like
crazy and plunged it right into the ground. I stood close by to watch
and it shook my eyes in their sockets and rattled my teeth. Neat.
They were able to drag the line from a big reel on the truck right
back to the kiln pad, leaving but a little scar in the lawn. They put a
big meter by the kiln, so I know exactly how much gas I'm using for
each fire. The line running back to the meter is at street pressure.
There are two regulators after it. One goes down to 7 wci at 3/4"
diameter for the heater in the studio. The other goes to 2 psi at 2"
diameter for the kiln. I step it down once more to 11 wci at 3/4" for
the last 5 feet or so before the burners. My total cost for the whole
shebang was $78. Yup. They really want to sell gas.
steve grimmer
marion illinois.
KLeSueur wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>
> <> the kiln site to the gas meter or to use propane if it is allowed in the
> area where you live.>>
>
> In another life I lived and made pots in south Texas. The owner of the nursery
> where my kiln was located decided to tap into my 1 1/2" line to run his
> greenhouse heaters. The first time he tried to fire them up (during the
> freeze of '83), they would't work ( a 3/4 " line running over two acres. I
> told him it wouldn't work. But what did I know. I'm a woman.)
>
> The gas company solution was to hang a 20 lb meter to get enough pressure to
> his heaters (we were sitting above a 10" main gas line). The put a regulater
> on my line to step down to 8ounces of pressure. NOT A GOOD SOLUTION. Even
> with the regulator, lighting the burners was a frightening experience and I
> live in fear that the regulator would fail.
>
> My advice............ dig that new trench and put in a 1 1/2" line.
>
> Kathi LeSueur
> it's snowing in Ann Arbor
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