Talbott on tue 21 apr 98
Lisa..
A Duhhhhh.. I have seen that photo a hundred times but something
just doesn't seem "quite right" about that particular photo. I am sure
Tom's red are brilliant. Still would like to know how those pots fit in
between the shelves before firing? ...Marshall
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Talbott wrote:
>> 1) Does Tom Coleman have a web-site address which displays his copper
>>red glaz
>
>Marshall, helLO! Do you take CM? If so, look through it and you will
>usually find a full page ad for some sort of kiln (Duh, advertising
>didn't work on me.), with a woman seated in the kiln door and Tom
>Coleman standing beside the door, and shelf upon shelf of copper red
>pots.
>--
>Lisa Skeen
>Living Tree Pottery & Soaps
>"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful
>words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of
>the good people." -- Dr. M. L. King, Jr. 4/16/63
http://www.PotteryInfo.com
101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad S. Reitz on wed 22 apr 98
Marshall,
I had studio space with Tom at the time the photo with he, Cory, and Shelly was
shot. It never ceases to amaze me that people think you open the kiln door
and- voila... a load of beautiful copper reds! Those pots all came from
different kiln loads and some from different batches of glaze. There were even
some awful pots that had suffered from WD-40 left in the sprayer. Don't
misunderstand, the glaze is beautiful and somewhat reliable, however, it is
subject to placement in the kiln, thickness, and reduction effects. By the
way, a 50/50 split of his Vegas red and Lipstick purple mixed wet is the
current rage at the studio. I've had very good success in my Geil throughout
the kiln.
Regards,
Brad Reitz
Dave Eitel on fri 24 apr 98
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Marshall,
>>
>>I had studio space with Tom at the time the photo with he, Cory, and
>>Shelly was
>>shot. It never ceases to amaze me that people think you open the kiln door
>>and- voila... a load of beautiful copper reds! Those pots all came from
>>different kiln loads and some from different batches of glaze. There
>>were even
>>some awful pots that had suffered from WD-40 left in the sprayer. Don't
>>misunderstand, the glaze is beautiful and somewhat reliable, however, it is
>>subject to placement in the kiln, thickness, and reduction effects. By the
>>way, a 50/50 split of his Vegas red and Lipstick purple mixed wet is the
>>current rage at the studio. I've had very good success in my Geil throughout
>>the kiln.
>
>
>
I don't consider myself naive when it comes to matters ceramic, but that ad
in my mind clearly is meant to imply that those pots were fired at one time
in that kiln. Up until reading this post, I believed that was the case,
despite what I know and have read about firing copper reds I feel the ad
is very dishonest in its intent. If it were not, there should be a
statement to the effect that those pots were the result of separate firings.
Dave
Dave Eitel
Cedar Creek Pottery
Cedarburg, WI USA
http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
Talbott on sat 25 apr 98
Dave...
I too must agree with your assesment of this advertisement. It is
certainly misleading and many aspiring potters could easily be drawn in
(suckered in) by this advertisment. I agree that a disclaimer should be
placed in this advertisment stating that the pictured vessels did not
result from being fired all at once in the Geil Downdraft Kiln.
Apparently the pots came from different potters using various kilns; I
would like to know if this is indeed the case. Personally I would NOT want
to be associated with any deceptive advertisements. I think that those
associated with this ad went beyond the line of "truthfulness in
advertising" and "buyer beware assumptions" with this one. Just my $0.02
worth. ...Marshall
>I don't consider myself naive when it comes to matters ceramic, but that ad
>in my mind clearly is meant to imply that those pots were fired at one time
>in that kiln. Up until reading this post, I believed that was the case,
>despite what I know and have read about firing copper reds I feel the ad
>is very dishonest in its intent. If it were not, there should be a
>statement to the effect that those pots were the result of separate firings.
>
>Dave
>
>
>Dave Eitel
>Cedar Creek Pottery
>Cedarburg, WI USA
>http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
http://www.PotteryInfo.com
101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
lpskeen on sat 25 apr 98
Dave Eitel wrote:
> I don't consider myself naive when it comes to matters ceramic, but that ad> i
Dave, I agree with you. Marshall has been ribbing me via email about my
gullibility, but I also think the ad implies that you, too, can get all
those reds all at once, just like Tom Coleman, if you use their kiln. I
had also thought the kiln was electronically controlled, but it turns
out I was wrong about that too....
Can someone say, Truth in Advertising? Wonder how many of our other
suppliers are tricking us?
--
Lisa Skeen
Living Tree Pottery & Soaps
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful
words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of
the good people." -- Dr. M. L. King, Jr. 4/16/63
Tadeusz Westawic on sun 26 apr 98
Jeez Folks, take a pill or something. The guy's trying to make a living.
When was the last time you honestly thought that "Brand A" would clean
your kitchen AND repair your failing marriage.
What if Geil used models instead of Coleman et allus? Would you then
believe that every kiln ad regardless of brand is assuring you of equal
result? Or is the problem specifically with Coleman?
Personally, I think the guy's got a lot of nerve producing
better-looking pots than mine. OH, OH, that's not it. MY pots are
better-looking than HIS. I guess I just can't stand the thought of all
that recognition HE gets, while I get so little.
Tadzu--thinking of what I might do to get a $14,000 kiln.
Kathy E. McDonald on sun 26 apr 98
Hi All!
Well Marshall and Dave.....I don't like misleading advertising at all
and have stared at that ad wondering all the same questions you both pose.
After many years of firing my old 50 cu ft downdraft kiln I broke down and
purchased a Geil kiln about a year ago. I have ,in fact , been able to get
wonderfully consistent results from it. So consistent that I have been
tempted
to try to replicate that CM add. My only problem is that I am a
brunette!!!!
If I suceed in getting the whole kiln filled with RED I will take a pic and
put
the caption "so what if I'm not blonde!!!" on it .....(if Paul Geil will
publish it.)
I may be a while perfecting this......but the kiln is great....and the
potential for a whole load of great red is certainly there..
How's that for advertising?.......usual disclaimers!!
Kathy ..............(whose tongue is in her cheek)
http://members.tripod.com/~kmcd3
John Baymore on mon 27 apr 98
------------------
(clip)
=3E I don't consider myself naive when it comes to matters ceramic, but that
ad=3E
(snip)
Wow. I'm embarrased. This one caught me a bit too, Dave. Being a kiln
designer and builder I had never really LOOKED at that AD with a critical
eye before. I've LOOKED at a number of Geil KILNS....... but not the ad.
I've had courses in graphic design for commercial advertising.... so I know
this stuff happens..... but I guess I never associated this type of
approach within our little industry.
I certainly DID assume that the load pictured in the ad was what was there
when the door was opened up. Now.... I too am not naive enough to believe
that this type of picture perfect load happens over and over and over and
over ...... but I know enough about good kilns (and Geil makes good kilns)
to know that you CAN certainly get loads like this sometimes.
I originally assumed they (the Colemans') had the foresight (and
market/sponsor savvy) to grab their camera and take the picture when they
opened the door and found this blessing of the gama kami-sama (kiln god).
Thinking further after looking at the ad....... reproduced so crisply in
that large print size, the picture looks like it was taken on a large
format camera..... probably not the 35mm that would be typical of a home
shot. Even lighting, no bad shadows anywhere, good light into the ware.
So probably a commercial shoot. Commercial shoot...... nothing left to
chance.
So here we have what appears to be a full load of fired pots arrayed on
washed shelves in a kiln, with the potter(s) standing in front of the (what
we assume is .....recently) opened door. There are cone packs placed at
the top and bottom shelves, and they appear pretty dead even. There's
dazzling copper red everywhere.... as most any potter knows, a difficult
color to fire consistently. The headline says =22We have the formula.=22 =
The
copy then points out =22Tom Coleman is precise when he formulates his Vegas
Copper Red glaze.=22 and =22Geil Downdraft Kilns are precise when he =
fires.=22
So I can only take the combined image and copy as an active attempt to
IMPLY that this is an actual fired load, in situ.
=22We have the formula.=22 Headline copy is chosen for it's impact to get =
the
viewer to believe something. What would you believe from the headline and
the visual? That the manufacturer has developed a scientific means to give
you what you see here in the picture. What do you see? A pretty
impressive result for a load of pots, even for a real pro potter.
The word =22precise=22 shows up twice in the subheads. Why this word? It
implys accurate and unvarying control. That is supported by the visual
that was chosen.........red everywhere and dead even cones.
The subtle detail of the cones in place seals the question of intent for
me.
So..................... I too assumed from the context of the copy and the
photo that this was an actual kiln load. Guess I am gullible too. Sucked
into the power of manipulative advertising.
Gotta give Marshall credit for a real good eye. Upon looking closer at
the kiln picture it is clear that those pots would have been too big when
unfired to fit where they are currently placed. Never noticed that before
when casually looking at the ad. Ever considered a career as a private
eye, Marshall? =3Cg=3E
One thing that ALWAYS hit me as strange about the this particular ad
however, is why there is no mention of the names of the other two people in
the picture, ........just Tom. I assume that the woman pictured is Elaine
Coleman,his wife, who does =22killer=22 pots also (I prefer hers to her
husbands'). Who's the other guy? If you are not going to mention them,
why bother having them in the picture? If you're going to do the old,
tacky, tired but marginally effective =22sexy woman=22 and =22hunky guy=22 =
routine
as visual attractant, you'd use different people (professional models) and
different clothes.
(clip)
Can someone say, Truth in Advertising? Wonder how many of our other
suppliers are tricking us?
(snip)
Well, judging from the discussions of splinters and other junk in clay,
suddenly cracking clay bodies, and all the like stuff that comes up
whenever a bunch pf potters get together, yet many suppliers talking of
superior quality and customer service, it seems that this is more common
than we would like to believe.
Caveat Emptor=21
Best,
.......................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40Compuserve.com
Jeremy M. Hellman on mon 27 apr 98
Hi Kathy-
I was interested to read your results with the Geil. (I was also perhaps
naively surprised that the photo that implies everything came from one
firing was not 100% genuine. But I can't say I really thought about it a
lot.) I've only fired electrically and hope someday to have a gas fired
kiln. And normally I'm a pretty cynical skeptical person. I just drooled
at all that red!
However I went to your web site as a result of this email, and wanted to
tell you that I love the way it's organized. I love being able to move
from photo to photo quickly and easily. And you've done great things with
red!
Thanks for your postings.
Bonnie Hellman in Pittsburgh, PA
>Hi All!
>
> Well Marshall and Dave.....I don't like misleading advertising at all
>and have stared at that ad wondering all the same questions you both pose.
>After many years of firing my old 50 cu ft downdraft kiln I broke down and
>purchased a Geil kiln about a year ago. I have ,in fact , been able to get
>wonderfully consistent results from it. So consistent that I have been
>tempted
>to try to replicate that CM add. My only problem is that I am a
>brunette!!!!
>
>If I suceed in getting the whole kiln filled with RED I will take a pic and
>put
>the caption "so what if I'm not blonde!!!" on it .....(if Paul Geil will
>publish it.)
>
>I may be a while perfecting this......but the kiln is great....and the
>potential for a whole load of great red is certainly there..
>How's that for advertising?.......usual disclaimers!!
>
>
>Kathy ..............(whose tongue is in her cheek)
"Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too
dark to read" Groucho Marx
" " Harpo Marx
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana" Att. to GM
"You can tune a piano but you cant tune a fish" Old Proverb
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves
began to suspect 'Hungry' ..." -- Gary Larson, "The Far Side"
Talbott on tue 28 apr 98
A lot of good points on that photo... I do believe that the
advertisment is deceptive. John Baymore did a good job in analyzing the
details as to why that ad is deceptive. If the kiln is such a great kiln
then by all means show what the kiln can do by using its own merits.
Don't misread what I am saying.. I am sure that the kiln is a good one.. I
contend that the Geil Kiln company should not mislead the public about the
truth. I would venture to say that Tom Coleman could take nearly any kiln
that he could fine tune and get similar results as with the Geil kiln.
If you want good copper reds then I recommend using a down draft kiln (see
Nils Lou's book the Art of Firing) and a good oxyprobe. We get our best
reds using the ox-blood copper red found in Tichane's book: "Reds, Reds,
Copper Reds".. I start reduction at ^013 and try to maintain an oxyprobe
reading of .67 until I reach ^10. Try to avoid drafty conditions and cool
the kiln as slowly as possible. I still maintain that copper reds are
tricky regardless.. ...Marshall
http://www.PotteryInfo.com
101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Earl Brunner on thu 30 apr 98
I have worked in, or been associated with the Coleman Clay
Studio for 2 and 1/2 years. During that time they have fired loads
of copper reds. They get consistent, predictable results. I have discussed th
with Tom Coleman. He is emphatic that the picture represents an
actual kiln load. The apparent lack of shrinkage space above
the pots is due to shelf sag, they are flipped every firing. Prior to
the 1997 NCECA, Tom Coleman and Paul Geil held a pre-NCECA workshop. Participa
trashing of people in a medium they don't use.Tom's not a hermit, he just doesn'
reply to:
> A lot of good points on that photo... I do believe that the
> advertisment is deceptive. John Baymore did a good job in analyzing the
> details as to why that ad is deceptive. If the kiln is such a great kiln
> then by all means show what the kiln can do by using its own merits.
>
> Don't misread what I am saying.. I am sure that the kiln is a good one.. I
> contend that the Geil Kiln company should not mislead the public about the
> truth. I would venture to say that Tom Coleman could take nearly any kiln
> that he could fine tune and get similar results as with the Geil kiln.
>
> If you want good copper reds then I recommend using a down draft kiln (see
> Nils Lou's book the Art of Firing) and a good oxyprobe. We get our best
> reds using the ox-blood copper red found in Tichane's book: "Reds, Reds,
> Copper Reds".. I start reduction at ^013 and try to maintain an oxyprobe
> reading of .67 until I reach ^10. Try to avoid drafty conditions and cool
> the kiln as slowly as possible. I still maintain that copper reds are
> tricky regardless.. ...Marshall
>
> http://www.PotteryInfo.com
>
> 101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
> 2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
> E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
>
> Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
> Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
John Britt on thu 30 apr 98
Boy potters sure are idealistic! Never seen advertising before? Ever
been into an Arby's and noticed that your turkey did not look like the
photo?? Ever wear Nike's and wonder why you can hammer jam like
Michael?? The ad sure makes you think you will be able to!
It's just an ad and they take the best photo they can think of.
Firing the reds are easy. What I still can't understand is why, after
buying that Soldner Mixer, I don't have any naked people making my clay
body?? I keep checking the box but can't seem to find them??
Hanging out in my Calvin's waiting for Kate Moss.
John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
Dys-Functional Pottery
Dallas, Texas
http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
Talbott on sat 2 may 98
Earl...
Well since that photograph is genuine as you say, then I guess that
I and a few other folks owe Tom Coleman and the others associated with that
photograph an apology. I don't exactly know how it was suspected that it
wasn't authentic except for some of the previous posts on this subject but
if it is not a staged photograph then please forward my apologies to Tom
Coleman... Just goes to prove that fact is stranger than fiction... ;-))
Certainly if we on Clayart can make public accustations then public
apologizes are ALSO in order.
Thanks... Marshall
PS... Moderator PLEASE forward this to the LIST...
http://www.PotteryInfo.com
101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Hanlin on tue 5 may 98
Well...I asked Tom about that at NCECA and he swore that the kiln wasn't
restacked. I'm ... well ... he seemed like a nice fellow surely he
wouldn't ..... just for $$$$$$$$$ ... sure looks restacked to me.
At 07:37 AM 4/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Lisa..
> A Duhhhhh.. I have seen that photo a hundred times but something
>just doesn't seem "quite right" about that particular photo. I am sure
>Tom's red are brilliant. Still would like to know how those pots fit in
>between the shelves before firing? ...Marshall
>
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Talbott wrote:
>>> 1) Does Tom Coleman have a web-site address which displays his copper
>>>red glaz
>>
>>Marshall, helLO! Do you take CM? If so, look through it and you will
>>usually find a full page ad for some sort of kiln (Duh, advertising
>>didn't work on me.), with a woman seated in the kiln door and Tom
>>Coleman standing beside the door, and shelf upon shelf of copper red
>>pots.
>>--
>>Lisa Skeen
>>Living Tree Pottery & Soaps
>>"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful
>>words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of
>>the good people." -- Dr. M. L. King, Jr. 4/16/63
>
> http://www.PotteryInfo.com
>
> 101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
> 2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
> E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
>
> Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
> Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Bob Hanlin
bhanlin@ionet.net
Oklahoma City, OK
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