discounts

updated sun 21 nov 04

Jan Wax on thu 7 may 98

I'm interested in hearing how potters respond to requests for discounts.

Jan

Cynthia Spencer on fri 8 may 98

>I'm interested in hearing how potters respond to requests for discounts.

I think it's wise to be flexible. Sometimes a simple no, is the best
answer. Sometimes they need a little extra education.

For the type who always asks because they think they can get a bargain, I
try to, as nicely as I can through my gritted teeth, let them know that I
can send the unsold work out in orders to galleries as soon as I'm back
home, or take it to a show the next weekend and get my full price, so why
would I want to get less for the item than what it's worth.

With chronic dickerers, who return year after year hoping to get a
bargain, I tell them, I want them to feel good about buying a piece of
mine, but I also want to feel good about selling them a piece, and they
wouldn't want me to feel badly selling to them, do they?

Sometimes I offer a discount to a student who is an admirer and seems
unable to purchase the piece they really want. Sometimes I give a bargain
to a good, repeat customer. Sometimes for a really big sale (in the $300+
range), to a good customer, I'll "eat" the sales tax, which is my way of
saying my price still stands, but I want you to have this piece so I'll
pay the tax (never more than 10%) to have you take this home.

I've heard of others telling people, that if they don't like their work
enough to pay full price, they don't deserve a piece and will not sell a
piece to them. I've never had the balls to try this.

Cynthia Spencer
about to set up shop in THE largest all-ceramic show/sale in the West:
Ceramic Showcase in PDX.

the cat lady on fri 8 may 98

At 08:39 AM 5/7/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I'm interested in hearing how potters respond to requests for discounts.
>
>Jan
>
>
I guess the definitive answer is "it depends". Depends on:

who's asking
1st time or repeat customer
quantity requested
wholesale or retail (I don't further discount wholesale ever!)
reason for discount (student is one possibility)

I generally don't give discounts to 1st time purchasers EXCEPT if
they are purchasing a large amount. Then, (as suggested by Rob Tetu)
I will either throw in a small item (ie. spoon rest) or offer a
discount on 1 more purchased item (ie. 25% off any 1 item further
to what they've already purchased).

If you offer discounts to any/everyone that asks, then your price
struction collapses. Friends and family, however, are a whole
'nother ball game ;-)

sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario
SW Ontario CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110

D. McDysan on fri 8 may 98

I give 10% off if some one buys 3 or more pieces. It makes the customers
feel like they've bartered and sometimes they won't buy if you don't
discount. If that's too much you could try 5% or a few dollars.

Debbie McDysan

VandRKatz on sat 9 may 98

Jan,
I am a "small time" - home studio potter. I do not do 'production' ware but I
do sell my work at one art gallery & at several craft shows per year ( what do
you do with 48 cups ? ). Bottom line, I do not make a living selling my work.
HOWEVER, I resent discounting my work. It takes A GREAT DEAL of time to
master a simple thrown form - a great deal of work goes into each of my pieces
( funtional stoneware ) - throwing, trimming, 2 firings, glazing, etc. Bottom
line - I do not "discount". What I have found is that if I price something
low because I am not thrilled with it - THAT is the piece that I get orders
for, in multiples. So the piece I put out to sell to 'get rid of' is the very
piece I loose money on (making six of those ugly things).
In addition to that, word will go out that your prices are low & a friend-of-
a-friend will call & order some more of your '$6.00 cups, eight of them'.
Price your work reasonably & fairly.
Take pride in your work - Give yourself some credit.
BEWARE the DISCOUNT !
Vicki Katz
Katz Creek Pottery

Wendy Rosen on sat 9 may 98

Traditionally the following discounts apply:
50% off- to legitimate storefronts only with credentials and a
minimum order.
20% off- to QUALIFIED interior designers.

Many artists have discussed the possibility of giving additional discounts
to large customers like QVC, Chain Stores (Natural Wonders, Nature Company)
and Mail Order catalog companies with high volume... few have decided to
offer these additional discounts. Most artists price their work without
considering a REP COMMISSION of 15-20%... this makes it difficult to offer
additional discounts for volume buyers.

The real problem is that retail fairs are full of artists that know very
little about mark-up, cost of sale and how much it costs to make
something... others exhibit as a hobby not as a profession... they sure
don't help us build a community of people who can really make a living at
art.

I'll get off my soap box for now... I eagerly await the flames....

Wendy :>>>


>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I'm interested in hearing how potters respond to requests for discounts.
>
>I think it's wise to be flexible. Sometimes a simple no, is the best
>answer. Sometimes they need a little extra education.
>
>For the type who always asks because they think they can get a bargain, I
>try to, as nicely as I can through my gritted teeth, let them know that I
>can send the unsold work out in orders to galleries as soon as I'm back
>home, or take it to a show the next weekend and get my full price, so why
>would I want to get less for the item than what it's worth.
>
>With chronic dickerers, who return year after year hoping to get a
>bargain, I tell them, I want them to feel good about buying a piece of
>mine, but I also want to feel good about selling them a piece, and they
>wouldn't want me to feel badly selling to them, do they?
>
>Sometimes I offer a discount to a student who is an admirer and seems
>unable to purchase the piece they really want. Sometimes I give a bargain
>to a good, repeat customer. Sometimes for a really big sale (in the $300+
>range), to a good customer, I'll "eat" the sales tax, which is my way of
>saying my price still stands, but I want you to have this piece so I'll
>pay the tax (never more than 10%) to have you take this home.
>
>I've heard of others telling people, that if they don't like their work
>enough to pay full price, they don't deserve a piece and will not sell a
>piece to them. I've never had the balls to try this.
>
>Cynthia Spencer
>about to set up shop in THE largest all-ceramic show/sale in the West:
>Ceramic Showcase in PDX



*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
The Buyers Markets of American Craft
http://www.rosengrp.com
The Business of Craft
http://www.americancraft.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************

Mike Carroll on sat 9 may 98

There was a story in Ceramics Monthly a few years ago as part of a
commentary. A couple is getting married and they find a lovely brass lamp
that they would like to have as gifts for people at the wedding. They ask
the brass worker how much it would cost to make dozens of the lamp. The
brass worker responds with a price much higher than the original lamp. The
couple is suprised and asks why the lamps cost more than if they just
bought the one. The brass worker replies that to breathe the same life that
they loved in the one lamp into many lamps with equal intensity, becomes a
much greater job for the artisan. I think that's how it went.

I had a hard time with eutectics and glazes, but I understood that story.
When I am asked for a discount I cringe. I really want to make the sale,
but I have learned that this is hard work, that I love, and we really don't
make enough to be giving discounts when I have kids to care for and
mortgages to pay, etc. It also irks me that I put the effort into fairly
pricing my work and to a few people that is not good enough. I love my pots
and my customers mostly know they are getting a good deal. I do have a
"family" discount which some of the family use and some don't. Like the cat
lady says, whole 'nother.....

My wife thinks I just get CM to look at the pictures!

Mike Carroll
Avon NY

Judith Enright on sat 9 may 98

I'll offer one of three things when I'm certain I do not want to give the
discount in the first place, and it really depends on the situation. If I have
a sales table, I'll direct the customer there to look for something more in
his/her price range. If no sales table and the customer is interested in the
process of how I do what I do, I have double-sided pamphlets explaining in
friendly fashion the steps, time, training involved in making pots, tiles,
whatever (actually have three in the series so far: one on throwing, one on
handbuilding, another on tile-making). Sometimes this information gives the
customer a little more appreciation for what we as potters do and the reaction
can be very favorable. (These info sheets are also great to give to customers
who say, "I can make one of those myself -- why should I pay someone else for
it?") Finally, when all else fails, I'll explain that my prices have been
calculated to give the customer the best opportunity to make a purchase while
allowing me to make a living. This last usually works well.

Incidentally, I experienced a first with a customer making a special order a
couple of weeks ago -- he assumed that I'd be making a zillion of the soap dish
he ordered (an item which I don't make at all, but agreed to for him) and thus
should give him a discount based on the volume I'd be making. When I explained
that soap dishes were not a normal part of my inventory, he said they should be.
I thanked him (in a nice way, I hope) for offering his financial and marketing
wisdom and reiterated my special order pricing and deposit policy. With that,
he ordered two soap dishes. Go figure!

That's it -- have a great weekend, all!

Judith Enright @ Black Leopard Clayware
email: BLeopard@ricochet.net

----------
From: "Cynthia Spencer"
Sent: Friday, May 08, 1998 8:08 AM
To: "Multiple recipients of list CLAYART"
Subject: Re: Discounts

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I'm interested in hearing how potters respond to requests for discounts.

I think it's wise to be flexible. Sometimes a simple no, is the best
answer. Sometimes they need a little extra education.

For the type who always asks because they think they can get a bargain, I
try to, as nicely as I can through my gritted teeth, let them know that I
can send the unsold work out in orders to galleries as soon as I'm back
home, or take it to a show the next weekend and get my full price, so why
would I want to get less for the item than what it's worth.

With chronic dickerers, who return year after year hoping to get a
bargain, I tell them, I want them to feel good about buying a piece of
mine, but I also want to feel good about selling them a piece, and they
wouldn't want me to feel badly selling to them, do they?

Sometimes I offer a discount to a student who is an admirer and seems
unable to purchase the piece they really want. Sometimes I give a bargain
to a good, repeat customer. Sometimes for a really big sale (in the $300+
range), to a good customer, I'll "eat" the sales tax, which is my way of
saying my price still stands, but I want you to have this piece so I'll
pay the tax (never more than 10%) to have you take this home.

I've heard of others telling people, that if they don't like their work
enough to pay full price, they don't deserve a piece and will not sell a
piece to them. I've never had the balls to try this.

Cynthia Spencer
about to set up shop in THE largest all-ceramic show/sale in the West:
Ceramic Showcase in PDX.

OWL POTTER on sun 10 may 98

The bottom line with discounts is our time. We each only have a limited
amount of time to produce work. Each time we discount our work, we are
actually earning less per hour for our time. I simply won't do it (unless, of
course, I am desparate for money) and then I always end up thinking I could
have earned more working for the local fast food place.

As for the large order, or the multiples discount - it doesn't take less time
to produce 12 bowls simply because they are being paid for all at once. 12
bowls still take the same amount of time ( and materials and energy) to make
whether I sell them to 12 customers or to one customer. And normally, for
every 12 bowls I can get made, I have 24 customers!

Then there is the "Murphy Factor." Every time I have given in and taken a
large special order with lots of multiples - that is exactly when SOMETHING
will go wrong. A glaze ingredient will change, the firing will be off, the
clay will change, it never fails, mystery pop-outs appear in the pots,
whatever can go wrong, will ... then I wind up using my limited time making
that order over and over and over while all normal production and new work
comes to a halt as I struggle with the Murphy Factor.

This is an almost impossible concept to convey to a prospective customer who
has been schooled by experience that if they make a multiple purchase, they
ought to get discount. Instead of giving a discount, whenever a customer
starts asking me about multiples and large special orders - I want to say to
them, "there will be an extra charge of 50% on all such orders."

Maybe I will try that next time a customer asks for a discount.

Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan

Leslie Ihde on sun 10 may 98

What I would tell people who ask for a discount is that the ware IS
discounted; they are buying directly from me and there is no middleman. I
tell them that the piece would go for more in a gallery.
The later is speculative as I only sell from my home at this time.
Leslie
Vestal NY

eden@sover.net on sun 10 may 98

Hi Cynthia and All,

As the season revs up again those of us who earn our bread (donuts, pita,
whatever) marketing pots to people again have the vagaries of dealing with
the public to consider. I was talking about this alot when I got back from
Coconut Grove. The thing that stayed with me from this discussion is the
idea that when I give a discount to somebody who pesters me the person who
is gypped is the non-argumentative customer who pays the tag price without
complaint. Why should the person I appreciate most be subsidizing the
customer I appreciate least? So anyway it is obvious that I am going to
be bubbling out with this connundrum when the belligerent and pushy start
getting me down.

Eleanora....as Corinne mentioned, it seems it has been raining here
forever.....

.................
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net

John Kimpton Dellow on sun 10 may 98

simple answer is don`t. If the customer is pushy i tell them i don`t work for a
bowl of rice. If that doesn't set them back i then ask them, what would be
there reaction if the boss docked 10 or 15% off the months pay check, just for
the hell of it :).
jacka.

Mmpottery on sun 10 may 98

This discount thing REALLY irks me. Can you get a discount from the lawyers
and doctors etc etc? When you go to the grocery store can you ask for a
discount? What makes people think we are ripe for discount giving?? It pisses
me off.

Christopher J. Anton on mon 11 may 98

In deciding whether or not to give discounts, the important thing to
remember is that discounts are a marketing tool. Like any tool, it must be
properly used to give the desired results. The desired results are (or may
be): attracting a particular target market, inducing new customers to buy,
clearing out inventory which is not moving well. I am sure there are other
purposes as well.

Is there a target group, easily and clearly defined, whom you wish to
attract? Senior citizens? Active duty military and/or dependents? Will a
discount generate enough increase in sales to make the discount worth
offering?

Offering discounts to specific groups, and posting that information where it
is easily seen, can be an inducement to new customers. It can also help
head off the "price negotiator" discount request.

If you offer targeted discounts, keep track of sales to those groups. Is
the discount effective? Is it bringing repeat business?

Someone used the analogy of one's boss "discounting" an employee's paycheck.
That analogy does not truly apply. In the case of employment, the pay rate
has already been agreed upon by both parties. A contract of sorts exists
(either actual or implied). This situation does not exist with a pending
sale. An offer has been made, i.e. you are offering your goods at a
particular price. A request for a discount is a counter-offer. This is a
normal business occurance. As one well known business author has said
"Anything is negotiable." The only question is whether or not the
negotiations move from the status quo. "Do you discount? No, I don't." is
a negotiation. So is "Do you discount?" "Yes, but to qualified customers.
Are you . . .?"

The important thing is to have a clearly defined policy, and to be
consistent. Customers will rarely be upset if they ask for a discount, and
they are firmly but politely turned down. What will upset them is finding
out that someone else, under exactly the same circumstances did get the
discount that they themselves did not receive. The issue is not really
discounts, but fairness.

In short, determine in advance to whom (if anyone) you will give discounts.
Make your policy clear, fair, and easily understood, and stick to it.

- Chris Anton

the cat lady on mon 11 may 98

>What I would tell people who ask for a discount is that the ware IS
>discounted; they are buying directly from me and there is no middleman. I
>tell them that the piece would go for more in a gallery.
>The later is speculative as I only sell from my home at this time.
>Leslie
>Vestal NY
>
>
Leslie:

I have a BIG problem with this answer. I make sure that pieces I sell
wholesale are sold at the set retail price. It is very bad business
to sell at one price in your studio and let the gallery sell for another
(unless they're really far away) because you're undercutting the gallery
and that's a good way to lose their business.

I think you could answer with "this is a very fair price considering
all the time and effort put into each piece" and thereby not give the
purchasing public the impression that they're better off going to studios
and avoiding the gallies. The galleries sell our work and save us the
time/aggravation of selling direct. Galleries give those of us who are
*really* small (1 or 2 people) a chance to concentrate our energy
on creation; rather than splitting our time/energy into marketing.

Or give them a copy of "What goes into making a mug".

Hope this makes sense to you....had 1 glass of wine, and more to go :)

sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario
SW Ontario CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110

the cat lady on mon 11 may 98

>Incidentally, I experienced a first with a customer making a special order a
>couple of weeks ago -- he assumed that I'd be making a zillion of the soap dish
>he ordered (an item which I don't make at all, but agreed to for him) and thus
>should give him a discount based on the volume I'd be making. When I explained
>that soap dishes were not a normal part of my inventory, he said they
should be.
> I thanked him (in a nice way, I hope) for offering his financial and
marketing wisdom and reiterated my special order pricing and deposit policy.
>With that, he ordered two soap dishes. Go figure!
>
-----------------------------------------------------------

I had a very similar incident this past weekend. While at a guild
sale, a lady came in looking for a potter to re-produce an item
she had borrowed from a friend. I think it's called a french butter
keeper. It's a 2 part item, and (IMO) considering the way it is to
be used, needs to be fired in separate parts. I gave her a price,
after drawing it, and calculating weight of clay needed. She said
she wanted 4, and immediately offered me 10% less due to quantity.
I told her that since I had never made that product, there would
be time lost due to having to work out exactly how to make them.
She then told me that since it would be such a big seller for me;
and she the cause of these future sales, that I should give her
an even bigger break. I smiled, and said that while I appreciated
her input, the price stands. I took a 50% deposit and made 5 sets.
Murphy's law states that if I make 4 sets, 1 will crack/not work.
Making 5 sets means all will come out fine ;->

sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario
SW Ontario CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110

Theresa L. Jones on mon 11 may 98

I do not make my living off pottery. It has traditionally been my "therapy"
to escape from the corporate world (until a year and a half ago when I left
corporate America and became a professional grad student). I do about two
small, local shows a year. I have to move my merchandise so my prices are
what I consider very reasonable, especially for items that have been in
multiple sales and need to go. People who know pottery agree. When someone
trys to deal with me (I want to tell them this is not a flea market), I
usually tell them, politely, that I consider my prices low and do not
bargain. One lady came back five minutes later and asked me the same thing
- I told her I had not changed my policy. I do have an unwritten policy
that if someone buys $100 or more, I pick up the sales tax, unless I don't
like the person.

What bothers me are people who ask if they can return merchandise if it
doesn't "match". Of course, they always are interested in one of the better
pieces that I know will sell permanently if they don't buy it. A lady asked
me this one time, while her husband stood behind her grinning big and saying
"Oh, I'm sure we can." I wanted to tell them this was not Walmart and to go
buy their dishes there. I have also learned not to hold merchandise for
people while they shop unless they have paid for it (except for friends and
steady customers who start their own little stacks behind my booth). At an
early student show, a lady picked out two of my best bowls and said she
wanted to buy them for her friend she was with. I stuck them back, assuming
she would slip back over. Eventually I saw them leave. The bowls didn't
sell that day.

Since I do pottery for my own pleasure, I tend to turn down orders because
they seem to ALWAYS mess up and become stressful rather than fun. I don't
do production. People have asked me to make dinner sets for them, thinking
that my pricing is logical and linear (ha). They drop the subject quickly
when I tell them what I would charge, and why.

Has anyone ever refused to sell to a potential customer? I have come so
close. Years ago at a student sale, an extremely arrogant young man with a
phone attached to his ear came up and started insulting my raku lamps (have
you had people start picking at your pots hoping to get you to cut the
prices?). I explained to him they were "crooked" because they were on an
incline. Then he started whining because they had no lampshades. I
explained to him I was leaving that choice to the customer and where he
could buy lampshades. Finally, he decided to buy them. The two sold for
about $50. He hands me a $100 bill. Understand, this was a little student
show on the sidewalk outside the craft center. When he pulled up in his big
new Suburban to get them (they weren't that heavy but I guess he was that
wimpy) and I picked up the box with the two lamps carefully packed inside,
I came SO close to dropping them. I don't want them going home with this
jerk. But decided I wanted the money and handed them over.



Theresa L. Jones
tljones@flash.net

Gavin Stairs on mon 11 may 98

At 10:51 AM 5/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>The bottom line with discounts is our time. We each only have a limited
>amount of time to produce work. Each time we discount our work, we are
>actually earning less per hour for our time. I simply won't do it
(unless, of
>course, I am desparate for money) and then I always end up thinking I could
>have earned more working for the local fast food place.

If you are working as hard as you can, and selling all your work, then it
strikes me that you are probably underpriced. The object of pricing, in
the pure capitalist system at any rate, is to price goods at the maximum
rate that will permit you to sell all your production, or, more precisely,
at the rate which will bring you the highest return for your effort. So,
in your case, I would consider raising your prices somewhat.

The whole point of discounting is to encourage the sale of more goods, and
also to acknowledge the lower overhead of volume orders. If you have no
trouble selling your ware, then there is no reason to discount. If you do
not gain time (through reduced sales effort, packaging, etc.) by volume
sales, then you have no reason to discount. Rather the reverse.

There may be other reasons to discount: to reward favors, to subsidize a
group, to move a slow line, to encourage future growth, to show
appreciation to friends, etc. These can be evaluated in their own light.
For every day discounting, take a leaf from the major retailers' books, and
price high enough so that your standard discounts bring the price down to
where you normally want to sell.

People who request discounts are just bargaining for a lower price. In
cultures where bargaining is a standard feature, the accepted practice is
for the asking price to be much higher than the anticipated sale price.
Bargaining is usually a fairly ritualized dance in which the outcome is
understood from the outset by both parties. The purpose may be less to set
the price than to establish a relationship between buyer and seller. The
same purpose is served in our culture by sales and everyday deep discounts
and the like. When the system works well, everyone feels that they have
made a good bargain, and the seller gets what he/she wants as well.

In some cases, bargaining is a means of establishing the price of luxury
and status goods. Car sales used to be an example of this, but now, when
cars are less luxury and more everyday, peoples' tolerance of car sales
bargaining seems to be diminishing. The object in this game is to permit
people to believe that they have purchased an expensive status good for
much less than the going rate. So the price is set high, and the
salesperson exhibits all the symptoms of being forced to a lower price by
the superior bargaining tactics of the customer, or permits the customer to
believe that he is being seduced in some way. In the end, the goods are
sold for the market price or more. Some art dealers work this way.

There are other ways of establishing a comfortable sales relationship with
your customer. You can tell them about the high quality and workmanship of
goods, or make them feel comfortable in other ways: brochures, sales
talks, etc. Also, an established pricing policy, carefully enunciated and
posted for all to see may give people confidence that they are not being
victimized.

If you feel that discounting is taking money out of your pocket, don't do
it. If you feel that you are underpaid for your work, but have no trouble
selling it, then increase your prices.

Gavin

Gavin Stairs
Toronto, Canada

Paul Lewing on tue 12 may 98

On the subject of people asking for discounts, I have a friend who was
asked once at a fair, "Could you give me a better price on this?". I
think the piece was priced at $50, so my friend said, "Sure, how about
$60? That's a better price."
Paul Lewing, Seattle

NgtvSpace on wed 13 may 98

Hello Everybody:

The discount discussion was getting on my nerves, until I read Teresa Jones. I
am a ceramic sculptor and I made a desicion that I would never ever do craft
shows again, (there are two jobs I cant do craft shows and waitressing), I
decided to do this because my artwork wasnt being served nor my self-esteem. I
have an incredible respect for production potters, such as Lisa Orr, I mean
she really works it. Granted that most buyers do not appreciate hand made
originals as opposed to mass produced third world kitsch, and I believe it is
our job to educate people, sometimes by sending them to art school so that
they can become educated buyers...However what has struck me is that the
reason the discount thing gets on our nerves is that we are also accustomed to
going into a store buying an item paying for it an leaving, maybe we say hello
to the cashier maybe not, our interaction with others is minimal, a couple of
years ago I went to Mexico, and although I'm Cuban/Irish (having actually been
brought up in Cuba) and speak fluent spanish, I realize how "gringa" I had
become, I mean No means NO! If I want to buy something I'll buy it, you know
what I mean? The point is that this and other experiences at other "third
world" markets have made me reflect on the whole art of haggling, hustleling
and trading in a real market place, in some ancient cultures this was the
etiquette, I mean you just didnt go pick up a pot and find a sticker with the
price on it, it was expected that you would enter into a fierce negotiation
over pottery or produce, until both parties were satisfied. I think that we
have become so civilized by Wal-Mart that we find it distasteful to haggle...

Lorca

David Hendley on thu 14 may 98

I was hoping not to get involved with the 'discounts' discussion,
but I just have to reply to the cat lady's recent postings.
My point is that there are no 'rules' here.
Whatever works for each person is good, but may not be right for everyone.

Just because you sell your work through galleries and cringe at the
word 'discount', does not mean (thank goodness) that is the only way
to do things. If a person enjoys having visitors to their pottery studio and
wants to encourage even more to come, then a 'discount' for buying
direct is perfectly logical and appropriate. If a gallery doesn't
like that, they are free to not accept work from that person.

Another point: You cannot really know for sure that you and a particular
gallery are selling your work for the same price. Once you've sold it to
them, they can price it as they see fit, be it at a discount to clear it
out, or
at a premium because high demand lets them command a higher price.
I suppose you could try to draw up a contract to limit what they could
sell a piece for, and that may happen with very expensive art pieces,
but I've never seen such a thing for pottery.

Then there are the huge differences in different parts of the country, in
the U. S., anyway. It would be absurd for a potter in rural Alabama to have
a piece priced the same at his shop and in New York City. The result
would be an outrageuosly priced piece that would not sell at his shop,
but would be absurdly under-priced in New York. Or, closer to home,
in an up-scale shop in Atlanta.

We all enjoy the 'freedom' of being independent potters who can run
our businesses as we like. I know it's frustrating to encounter the
'new' potter who shows up at an art fair with unrealisticlly low prices, or
the one who cuts prices and makes 'deals' left and right. They'll be
gone soon. But there are also people who give discounts, run ads with
promotions, and have 'sales' who have been in business for years and know
what they are doing and why.

David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas





----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>What I would tell people who ask for a discount is that the ware IS
>discounted; they are buying directly from me and there is no middleman. I
>tell them that the piece would go for more in a gallery.
>The later is speculative as I only sell from my home at this time.
>Leslie
>Vestal NY
>
>
>Leslie:
>
>I have a BIG problem with this answer. I make sure that pieces I sell
>wholesale are sold at the set retail price. It is very bad business
>to sell at one price in your studio and let the gallery sell for another
>(unless they're really far away) because you're undercutting the gallery
>and that's a good way to lose their business.
>
>I think you could answer with "this is a very fair price considering
>all the time and effort put into each piece" and thereby not give the
>purchasing public the impression that they're better off going to studios
>and avoiding the gallies. The galleries sell our work and save us the
>time/aggravation of selling direct. Galleries give those of us who are
>*really* small (1 or 2 people) a chance to concentrate our energy
>on creation; rather than splitting our time/energy into marketing.
>
>Or give them a copy of "What goes into making a mug".
>
>Hope this makes sense to you....had 1 glass of wine, and more to go :)
>
>sam - alias the cat lady
>Melbourne, Ontario
>SW Ontario CANADA
>http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
>
>
At 08:35 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Leslie:
>
>This is NOT a flame, or meant to be an angry response, so please
>don't read as such. I'm addressing your note in kind of a point
>form, and :) is implied/meant with all questions/comments.
>
>I am addressing this because I obviously wasn't clear - and if
>you have mis-interpreted what I said, then others did also, and
>I want to be clear (she said waving her hands wildly in the air!)
>
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Sam, I didn't mean to be undermining galleries- but I also wouldn't charge
>>what a gallery would charge.
>
>You say in your 1st note that you don't have work for sale in a gallery,
>yet say in this note you "wouldn't charge what a gallery would charge".
>I think if you checked out some galleries that sell the kind of work
>I sell, their prices and my prices are on a par. Have you indeed checked
>comparable pieces to your own? Do you think a gallery charges a high
>mark up? On one-of-a-kinds, yes the pieces are probably high priced...
>but then again, probably would be at the artist's studio as well.
>
>>I understand your point to mean that we
>>should'nt degrade our work by complying with the "discount" notion.
>
>Nope, not what I meant at all. I was _trying_ to say that your
>comment to the public gives them the (false) notion that by buying
>directly from the artist, they are paying a lesser price. In MOST
>cases, the potters *I* know sell at one set retail price. Yes, I
>know most people automatically expect a discount when they visit
>the studio, but this ain't necessarily so. The reason I was trying
>to get you to stop saying this is to end the public perception.
>Think of it - every time the potter has to stop and talk and sell
>their work, they are losing time/money. So the pieces should sell
>at the same rate the retail outlet is selling them at to make up
>for the interruption in their day. Am I clearer this time?
>
>An example. I was doing the guild sale last year, when a customer
>called me over to my table. She said she wanted 6 mugs. I offered
>to carry them to the cash. She said no, she wanted directions to
>my house. I asked her "why" since I had a full selection of work
>out and there was nothing different or special about the work still
>left at home - just more of the same. She told me flat out that
>it would be cheaper to buy from me direct. I stared, and said no,
>it would be 6 times $14. Then she says "surely they'd be a discount,
>no tax?" I said no, 6 times $14 plus PST. She got angry at this.
>Told me she expected that if she was going to drive all the way out
>to my house, she was *going* to get a discount. She was red! I
>got pissed, and said "wholesale starts at $1000 minimum order" and
>turned my back on her before I used nasty language.
>
>So this is why I ask you to stop saying it's cheaper than a gallery.
>I've stopped allowing all but friends to buy from my home. If a person
>calls and wants a specific item, I'll send it UPS (using their credit
>card number to cover item/shipping costs). Otherwise, no browsing. I
>tried it for a year, and people think nothing of taking up an hour or
>2 looking at the studio, the kiln, the cats, and buying a less than
>$10 item. In the meanwhile I've lost 2 hours on the wheel!!
>
>>Unfortunately, it would take a great deal of time to appropriately
>>educate someone as to the nature of pottery, and not all customers are
>>asking for an indepth answer to their questions.
>
>You're right there of course. I hand out my "making a mug" sheet to
>the pushiest ones and stand over them while they read. This accomplishes
>1 of 2 things. Either they don't want to take the time to read it and
>walk away (relieving me of their company) or they read it and don't ask
>again for a discount.
>
>
>"These pieces are discounted, youre buying directly from
>>me" would be your remark- I'd vary it to something like "I don't
>>participate in the "sale and discount" thing, I just start off with a fair
>>price and stick to it."
>>
>Thank you!!!
>
>sam - from broken toe, ontario :(
>
>PS my horse thought it would be great fun to stomp on my left foot
>on Saturday. My 2nd toe snapped!
>

Olivia T Cavy on fri 15 may 98

Hello all,

When we are the ones doing the selling we want the highest prices
possible.
When we are the ones doing the buying we want to pay the lowest prices
possible.
Interesting thoughts here.

When I order glaze ingredients I buy mostly from one place (call them
vendor #1), except for several oxides which I can buy MUCH cheaper
elsewhere (call it vendor #2). Recently I placed what for me is a large
order and asked vendor #1 if they could match the prices of vendor #2 on
the cobalt, tin and zinc oxides. They said that they couldn't because
they purchase everything else by the truckload and can pass on the good
prices. Fair enough. They are selling those products at their usual
mark-up. They've made a business decision and I respect that.

I have 2 choices. I can go to vendor #2 who presumably buys cobalt, tin
and zinc by the truckload (since they've been in business a long time and
wouldn't still be in business unless they were making a profit, I assume)
OR I can decide that on the whole my total bill would be lower by making
all my purchases at vendor #1. Maybe I think that I want to support
vendor #1 who has always been very good to me. Maybe I don't want to make
a second trip in another direction to pick up at vendor #2. Whatever
reason, I make my own choice.

I am grateful that I am able to make those choices.

When I want to buy wine or liquor in Pennsylvania, I HAVE to buy it at
stores run by PA state bureaucrats at prices set by the state (I mean the
commonwealth). No choice unless I go outside the state, in which case I'm
supposed to pay PA taxes. Very bad.

David is right that once you sell your goods to a gallery or anyone else
for that matter, you have no control about the price they charge their
customers. I believe price fixing is illegal. And that gallery on either
coast will certainly charge more than the gallery in the middle of
Kansas. Cost of living and costs of doing business are higher in some
places. Same is true of the global economy.

My advice (as a CPA) is to price your own pots at a price that is fair to
you (that lets you sell the quantity you want to sell) and not get hung
up on the money that others may seem to make.

Bonnie

Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA in
Pittsburgh, PA
work email: oliviatcavy@juno.com
home email: mou10man@sgi.net

On Thu, 14 May 1998 08:28:47 EDT David Hendley
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>I was hoping not to get involved with the 'discounts' discussion,
>but I just have to reply to the cat lady's recent postings.
>My point is that there are no 'rules' here.
>Whatever works for each person is good, but may not be right for
>everyone.
>
>Just because you sell your work through galleries and cringe at the
>word 'discount', does not mean (thank goodness) that is the only way
>to do things. If a person enjoys having visitors to their pottery
>studio and
>wants to encourage even more to come, then a 'discount' for buying
>direct is perfectly logical and appropriate. If a gallery doesn't
>like that, they are free to not accept work from that person.
>
>Another point: You cannot really know for sure that you and a
>particular
>gallery are selling your work for the same price. Once you've sold it
>to
>them, they can price it as they see fit, be it at a discount to clear
>it
>out, or
>at a premium because high demand lets them command a higher price.
>I suppose you could try to draw up a contract to limit what they could
>sell a piece for, and that may happen with very expensive art pieces,
>but I've never seen such a thing for pottery.
>
>Then there are the huge differences in different parts of the country,
>in
>the U. S., anyway. It would be absurd for a potter in rural Alabama to
>have
>a piece priced the same at his shop and in New York City. The result
>would be an outrageuosly priced piece that would not sell at his shop,
>but would be absurdly under-priced in New York. Or, closer to home,
>in an up-scale shop in Atlanta.
>
>We all enjoy the 'freedom' of being independent potters who can run
>our businesses as we like. I know it's frustrating to encounter the
>'new' potter who shows up at an art fair with unrealisticlly low
>prices, or
>the one who cuts prices and makes 'deals' left and right. They'll be
>gone soon. But there are also people who give discounts, run ads with
>promotions, and have 'sales' who have been in business for years and
>know
>what they are doing and why.
>
>David Hendley
>Maydelle, Texas
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>>What I would tell people who ask for a discount is that the ware IS
>>discounted; they are buying directly from me and there is no
>middleman. I
>>tell them that the piece would go for more in a gallery.
>>The later is speculative as I only sell from my home at this time.
>>Leslie
>>Vestal NY
>>
>>
>>Leslie:
>>
>>I have a BIG problem with this answer. I make sure that pieces I
>sell
>>wholesale are sold at the set retail price. It is very bad business
>>to sell at one price in your studio and let the gallery sell for
>another
>>(unless they're really far away) because you're undercutting the
>gallery
>>and that's a good way to lose their business.
>>
>>I think you could answer with "this is a very fair price considering
>>all the time and effort put into each piece" and thereby not give the
>>purchasing public the impression that they're better off going to
>studios
>>and avoiding the gallies. The galleries sell our work and save us
>the
>>time/aggravation of selling direct. Galleries give those of us who
>are
>>*really* small (1 or 2 people) a chance to concentrate our energy
>>on creation; rather than splitting our time/energy into marketing.
>>
>>Or give them a copy of "What goes into making a mug".
>>
>>Hope this makes sense to you....had 1 glass of wine, and more to go
>:)
>>
>>sam - alias the cat lady
>>Melbourne, Ontario
>>SW Ontario CANADA
>>http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
>>
>>
>At 08:35 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>>Leslie:
>>
>>This is NOT a flame, or meant to be an angry response, so please
>>don't read as such. I'm addressing your note in kind of a point
>>form, and :) is implied/meant with all questions/comments.
>>
>>I am addressing this because I obviously wasn't clear - and if
>>you have mis-interpreted what I said, then others did also, and
>>I want to be clear (she said waving her hands wildly in the air!)
>>
>>>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>>>Sam, I didn't mean to be undermining galleries- but I also wouldn't
>charge
>>>what a gallery would charge.
>>
>>You say in your 1st note that you don't have work for sale in a
>gallery,
>>yet say in this note you "wouldn't charge what a gallery would
>charge".
>>I think if you checked out some galleries that sell the kind of work
>>I sell, their prices and my prices are on a par. Have you indeed
>checked
>>comparable pieces to your own? Do you think a gallery charges a high
>>mark up? On one-of-a-kinds, yes the pieces are probably high
>priced...
>>but then again, probably would be at the artist's studio as well.
>>
>>>I understand your point to mean that we
>>>should'nt degrade our work by complying with the "discount" notion.
>>
>>Nope, not what I meant at all. I was _trying_ to say that your
>>comment to the public gives them the (false) notion that by buying
>>directly from the artist, they are paying a lesser price. In MOST
>>cases, the potters *I* know sell at one set retail price. Yes, I
>>know most people automatically expect a discount when they visit
>>the studio, but this ain't necessarily so. The reason I was trying
>>to get you to stop saying this is to end the public perception.
>>Think of it - every time the potter has to stop and talk and sell
>>their work, they are losing time/money. So the pieces should sell
>>at the same rate the retail outlet is selling them at to make up
>>for the interruption in their day. Am I clearer this time?
>>
>>An example. I was doing the guild sale last year, when a customer
>>called me over to my table. She said she wanted 6 mugs. I offered
>>to carry them to the cash. She said no, she wanted directions to
>>my house. I asked her "why" since I had a full selection of work
>>out and there was nothing different or special about the work still
>>left at home - just more of the same. She told me flat out that
>>it would be cheaper to buy from me direct. I stared, and said no,
>>it would be 6 times $14. Then she says "surely they'd be a discount,
>>no tax?" I said no, 6 times $14 plus PST. She got angry at this.
>>Told me she expected that if she was going to drive all the way out
>>to my house, she was *going* to get a discount. She was red! I
>>got pissed, and said "wholesale starts at $1000 minimum order" and
>>turned my back on her before I used nasty language.
>>
>>So this is why I ask you to stop saying it's cheaper than a gallery.
>>I've stopped allowing all but friends to buy from my home. If a
>person
>>calls and wants a specific item, I'll send it UPS (using their credit
>>card number to cover item/shipping costs). Otherwise, no browsing.
>I
>>tried it for a year, and people think nothing of taking up an hour or
>>2 looking at the studio, the kiln, the cats, and buying a less than
>>$10 item. In the meanwhile I've lost 2 hours on the wheel!!
>>
>>>Unfortunately, it would take a great deal of time to appropriately
>>>educate someone as to the nature of pottery, and not all customers
>are
>>>asking for an indepth answer to their questions.
>>
>>You're right there of course. I hand out my "making a mug" sheet to
>>the pushiest ones and stand over them while they read. This
>accomplishes
>>1 of 2 things. Either they don't want to take the time to read it
>and
>>walk away (relieving me of their company) or they read it and don't
>ask
>>again for a discount.
>>
>>
>>"These pieces are discounted, youre buying directly from
>>>me" would be your remark- I'd vary it to something like "I don't
>>>participate in the "sale and discount" thing, I just start off with
>a fair
>>>price and stick to it."
>>>
>>Thank you!!!
>>
>>sam - from broken toe, ontario :(
>>
>>PS my horse thought it would be great fun to stomp on my left foot
>>on Saturday. My 2nd toe snapped!
>>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Wendy Rosen on fri 15 may 98

Lorca,
I AGREE!!! Discounting only happens in marketplaces where supply
exceeds demand by a good measure... If anyone in our country is under
pressure to discount... they should look around them and find a different
"neighborhood" in which to sell their work. Independent merchants and
artisans in third world countries still do business this way because of
their "limitations" to access different and more affluent markets
sectors... we don't have that problem (thank God!)... it just takes a
different strategy to sell work to a different group or to set an
atmosphere where discounts aren't part of the "group culture"...

however regarding your statement...
distasteful to haggle...> ...I find it REALLY difficult to label a
Wal-Mart experience civilized... "Blue Light Special in aisle #4 !!!!

Wendy :)))

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hello Everybody:
>
>The discount discussion was getting on my nerves, until I read Teresa Jones. I
>am a ceramic sculptor and I made a desicion that I would never ever do craft
>shows again, (there are two jobs I cant do craft shows and waitressing), I
>decided to do this because my artwork wasnt being served nor my self-esteem. I
>have an incredible respect for production potters, such as Lisa Orr, I mean
>she really works it. Granted that most buyers do not appreciate hand made
>originals as opposed to mass produced third world kitsch, and I believe it is
>our job to educate people, sometimes by sending them to art school so that
>they can become educated buyers...However what has struck me is that the
>reason the discount thing gets on our nerves is that we are also accustomed to
>going into a store buying an item paying for it an leaving, maybe we say hello
>to the cashier maybe not, our interaction with others is minimal, a couple of
>years ago I went to Mexico, and although I'm Cuban/Irish (having actually been
>brought up in Cuba) and speak fluent spanish, I realize how "gringa" I had
>become, I mean No means NO! If I want to buy something I'll buy it, you know
>what I mean? The point is that this and other experiences at other "third
>world" markets have made me reflect on the whole art of haggling, hustleling
>and trading in a real market place, in some ancient cultures this was the
>etiquette, I mean you just didnt go pick up a pot and find a sticker with the
>price on it, it was expected that you would enter into a fierce negotiation
>over pottery or produce, until both parties were satisfied. I think that we
>have become so civilized by Wal-Mart that we find it distasteful to haggle...
>
>Lorca



*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
The Buyers Markets of American Craft
http://www.rosengrp.com
The Business of Craft
http://www.americancraft.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************