Michael McDowell on sat 16 may 98
There is another topic I've been stewing over lately that seems kind of
related to the issue of discounts. And that is the not infrequent requests
we potters get for donations of our work to be sold at auction to benefit
some worthy cause or institution. As I said in my other post on the subject
of discounts, I believe that our customers are instructed about the value of
our work by the prices that they pay for it. Some might feel that offering
up their work inexpensively to the public is some kind of "public service";
giving those who might otherwise not be able to afford it the opportunity to
bring functional art into their homes. there may be some merit to this
argument, but there is an, at least in my mind, equally valid argument for
holding out for top dollar for ones work. That is that people generally
don't believe that their purchases are worth any more than what they pay for
them. When we let our work go cheaply, we are teaching our customers that we
do cheap work. Even the most expensive pots are way down on the low end of
what original works of art cost. Personally I love to give people of modest
means the opportunity to pay good money for something they like, and will
cherish, knowing as I do that with all I have put into it, they are getting
good value for their money.
So recently I was approached by our local Art and History Museum for a
donation to their benefit auction. It's a big fancy affair that people dress
up to go to and they are generally encouraged to think that they are being
partons of the museum to bid for and purchase the many artworks that the
museum docents have coaxed out of quite a number of artists living in the
area. I'm not sure, but I suspect that sucessful bidders are even allowed a
tax deduction for some portion of their purchases since the proceeds go to
support the museum. I was not happy to see that though the "patrons" were
wined and dined, flattered and thanked profusely for their "support", none
of the artwork seemed to bring even as much as the retail value of the
pieces donated by the artists. It seems to me that these so called patrons
of the arts and the museum were taking the opportunity to get some cheap
art, pure and simple, not to mention the free booze and chocolates. And the
generosity of the artists was partially being drained off from the museum
into the private homes of the local "hoi poloi". I think that the museum is
dropping the ball in its responsibility to teach the value of the arts, and
artists, to let this situation continue, but it's apparently been going on
for some time.
My own personal reaction to this will be as follows. Next year I will not
give the museum a $200 bowl, but something more modest that is in line with
the amount of cash I'm willing to donate if need be. Then I'll tell the
Museum that the minimum bid will be the retail price, which I will pay if no
one else does. Think they'll get the message? Or am I being a twit?
Michael McDowell
Whatcom County, WA USA
http://www2.memes.com/mmpots
mmpots@memes.com
Berry Silverman on sun 17 may 98
Every time I am asked donate for an auction to raise funds for a cause,
I donate. Diseases, children, education, veterans -- just about
everybody makes the list. I almost always have something on the shelf
where I put the pieces that aren't the perfect color I wanted, or have a
flaw noticeable to only my eyes -- but still too good to put on the
seconds shelf, or the first generation of a new design, or the extra
piece on a special order that I made as insurance. I just let the
person asking come and choose what they want for the auction. It has
actually proven to be good advertising. Many people mentioned, oh, I
saw your piece at the Such-and-Such auction -- and they are so excited
to know the artist. I guess I feel if the community supports me, it's
only fair for me to support the community.
I will add, though, that for some reason the art museum requests do
rankle. Probably has something to do with the craft-versus-art argument.
It isn't art in their eyes until they want it for free. But still I
donate -- don't want that petty streak to show so boldly.
Berry in Tucson, where we pulled out 90-degreee weather for all the
grads in their suits today.
Paul Lewing on sun 17 may 98
Michael,
I couldn't agree with you more. Way too often the people who ask for
donations from artists, even those in arts organizations, do not
realize the implications for the artist.
It's amazing how few people realize that artists may only deduct the
cost of materials in the piece, not fair market value. This means
that if I donate a $100 tile piece to an auction, my deduction might
only be $5. If you bought the same piece from me and donated it, you
could deduct $100. Artists are the only class of people to whom this
rule applies.
The usual justification for asking us to donate is, "It's good
exposure!". To which I say, "You can die of exposure!". Or better
yet, "I can expose myself cheaper than that!" Do they have any idea
how rare it is for an artist to make a sale later as a result of
having made a donation?
That's why neither my wife nor I will donate to art auctions that give
you nothing for your donation. A percentage of the selling price,
even a low one, or at least an invitation to the event will do.
When I was in school, my teacher, Rudy Autio, said one time, "Every
person who gets a piece of art for free is another person who thinks
art is worthless". So I will definitely donate to causes I believe
in, but no organization should think I get any business benefit from
it, nor that it's an honor to be asked to donate. And I really wish
they'd make it clear to those patrons that, while all those businesses
that donated goods and services can take the full price as a
deduction, the artists can take almost nothing!
Paul Lewing, Seattle
Dannon Rhudy on sun 17 may 98
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
There is another topic I've been stewing over ... the not
infrequent requests we potters get for donations of our work to be
sold at auction to benefit
some worthy cause or institution.... was approached by our local
Art and History Museum for a
donation to their benefit auction. It's a big fancy affair that
people dress
up to go to and they are generally encouraged to think that they
are being
partons of the museum to bid for and purchase the many artworks
that the
museum docents have coaxed out of quite a number of artists ...
not happy to see that though the "patrons" were
wined and dined, flattered and thanked profusely for their
"support", none
of the artwork seemed to bring... retail value of the
pieces donated by the artists. ...
I have often mused about this, myself. Many many places, museums,
public radio/tv, ask for donations from artists. These are
usually forthcoming, no matter how poor or beleagured the artist
might be. The objects are then auctioned, usually to a group of
the most well-to-do, those who could or do support museums, etc.
Sometimes they pay market value, sometimes a lot less,
occasionally a bit more. In the course of the "auction", these
wealthy folks are fed and pampered and generally cosseted in
various ways. Seldom, seldom are the artists themselves invited
to be so fed, pampered and cosseted for having given their work.
What the museum or whatever gets is the money; what the buyer
gets is the work or piece and lots of strokes for buying it;
What the artist gets is a cheery "thanks, we'll call again next
year". Hmmmmm.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
Vince Pitelka on sun 17 may 98
>So recently I was approached by our local Art and History Museum for a
>donation to their benefit auction. It's a big fancy affair that people dress
>up to go to and they are generally encouraged to think that they are being
>partons of the museum to bid for and purchase the many artworks that the
>museum docents have coaxed out of quite a number of artists living in the
>area. I'm not sure, but I suspect that sucessful bidders are even allowed a
>tax deduction for some portion of their purchases since the proceeds go to
>support the museum. I was not happy to see that though the "patrons" were
>wined and dined, flattered and thanked profusely for their "support", none
>of the artwork seemed to bring even as much as the retail value of the
>pieces donated by the artists.
Michael -
This has not been my experience. For many years I have donated work to
fund-raising auctions when I feel the cause is worthy. In almost all cases
the work brings much more than the normal sales price, and these events
usually provide good publicity for me and my work.
It seems to me that the people who put on the above auction must have done a
lousy job of it. If the attendees expected to get bargains, then the
bidding would of course be low. If the auction presenters publicized the
auction as an opportunity for local citizens to do there share to support
the museum by purchasing examples of the finest artwork produced in the
area, perhaps the bidding would have been higher. These are of course just
hypothetical situations, because I do not know the specifics of this auction.
I think that when one values the commitment and craftsmanship in one's own
work, as you certainly do, it makes sense to request full information about
any auction you are asked to donate work to. Find out exactly how the
auction and work will be publicized and presented, and make absolutely sure
that the auction presenters follow through on their promises.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
CaraMox on sun 17 may 98
Michael:
It is a valid gripe. What I find irritating about the donation issue, of
museums and non-profit organizations asking artists to donate artwork for
auction, is that taking a tax deduction for it is not as easy as the
organizations claim. I have explained to a couple of people trying to
convince me to donate artwork that, according to my accountant, I don't get a
writeoff for donations because I'm already writing off the cost of making it,
and the piece can't be writen off twice. I do donate work, but only for
groups that I would give money to anyway, and usually do something specific
for the auction, not something that is my usual work, so there is no point of
comparison on price. And groups that do not provide me with the name and
address of the purchaser, or at the very least an aknowledgement that I gave
them something, don't get future donations.
It is very odd that some organizations think artists are dying to give away
their work for nothing, without so much as a thank you or ticket to the gala
event.
Cara
in New Orleans
where the "galas" seem to go on forever.
OWL POTTER on sun 17 may 98
This "patron" thing really struck a nerve with me. Isn't it great that the
"patrons" purchasing art at discount prices are wined and dined while the
artists (suckers) who donated the art are not.
When I first graduated from college I was making a lot of pots with no real
way to sell them, so I gave them away. At one of these giveaways, I was
approached by a professor who admonished me. He said never give your work
away. And proceeded to lecture me about what this was doing to my own self-
worth as well as the value (present and future) of my artwork. At the time, I
thought he was wrong. But, I often think of him when I am approached to "give
away" my work.
I think you are absolutely right to make it a condition of your donation, to
purchase your work back yourself, for the price you have placed on it, rather
than let it be discounted in the giveaway atmosphere of an auction that seems
geared to benefit the "patrons" more than the museum or the artists. In this
situation the "patrons" get cheap art and you have cheapened yourself and your
work just like that old prof tried teach me.
You have taught me something that I will use the next time I am asked to
donate work for auction or for sale where I know it will be sold at less than
the value I have placed on it.
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
Judith Enright on sun 17 may 98
Michael -- as an artist that donates work to the art auction our public
television station sponsors each year, I certainly understand much of what
you talk about in your post and yes, it CAN be very frustrating. But there
is a quid pro quo:
As donating artists, we get very inexpensive publicity; our work is
collected (however cheaply) and hopefully displayed and/or used; we may,
perhaps, get orders and name recognition; we contribute to the community's
knowledge and enjoyment of art; and we, too, get the tax write-off for the
donated item.
With that, I'm going to step outside and enjoy the sun before it disappears
again...
Judith Enright @ Black Leopard Clayware
email: BLeopard@ricochet.net
Paula clay on sun 17 may 98
Michael, you are right to be insulted by reduced prices that the "patron of
the arts" cocktail crowd are allowed to pay. But remember that when you donate
a piece of pottery, the IRS allows you to declare only the value of the
material and not the value of the piece. Now THAT is really what's not fair.
We as artists are "punished" twice. Paula Sibrack, Sherman, CT
DONPREY on sun 17 may 98
In a message dated 05/17/98 7:08:14 AM, you wrote:
<<
My own personal reaction to this will be as follows. Next year I will not
give the museum a $200 bowl, but something more modest that is in line with
the amount of cash I'm willing to donate if need be. Then I'll tell the
Museum that the minimum bid will be the retail price, which I will pay if no
one else does. Think they'll get the message? Or am I being a twit?
>>
Michael,
coincidentally, my wife and I will be going to a fund raising affair this
afternoon. I donated 2 or 3 vases...can't remember which....they are $25
items. We get two free tickets to the event. If I were itemizing deductions
at tax time, I'm sure that there is a deduction here for myself. I suppose it
is complicated by the fact that I am entitled to the two free tickets and
wether or not I actually use them, but I won't be itemizing and will get to
ignore that whole issue.
This fund raising event is for a group that provides a safe house for victims
of domestic violence. It is a silent auction with the retail value of the
item noted. This subject seems to be a bit complex, involving economic and
emotional issues. I found myself thinking differently about the art museum
event and the one I will attend this afternoon....I'm not sure....maybe
different rules (expectations ?) should apply. I'll be looking carefully at
the bid prices for handcrafted items today.
Don Prey in Oregon
MommyHome on mon 18 may 98
I have spent my life volunteering and working for non profit organizations and
I know they are always looking for funds. It is the nature of the non profit
world. Anything you do to help them will not only help others, but help you
as well. Your community involvement is never waisted, because it is YOUR
community that is helped. It is a win-win situation.
I am new at ceramics, but I think there are many who have pieces that sit
around waiting for the "right" buyer. We often have "seconds" or even
deplorable "firsts" from a student like myself, that we would not want to
release with our name on it, but then we can always remove that with a little
grinder. Knowing that these will be around for a very long time ( like 50,000
years or so even if they are smashed to bits), I propose that all potters
consider finding a favorite charity or two to donate to regularly. These can
be written off on your taxes as charitable donations and they will find a way
to generate considerable donations for the charity and good will for you at
the same time.
Encourage your favorite charity to let people know what items like these would
cost and where you may be contacted if they choose to buy more. I think this
will help to increase the amount the charity gets for the items and will
provide you with prospective customers as a "free" advertisement.
Sincerely,
Michele Delehanty
PATSYCATS on mon 18 may 98
In a message dated 5/18/98 9:51:26 AM, you wrote:
<give the museum a $200 bowl, but something more modest that is in line with
the amount of cash I'm willing to donate if need be. Then I'll tell the
Museum that the minimum bid will be the retail price, which I will pay if no
one else does. Think they'll get the message? Or am I being a twit?
>>>>
My favorite auction has the following policy: The minimum bid on the item is
the retail price. After the auction, if the item sold, they send me a check
for the ENTIRE amount of the retail price. They keep only the profit in
excess of the retail price. If the item doesn't sell, they return it to me,
but that has never happened. And yes, they make tens of thousands of dollars
every year on this auction, so the policy works for them as well as me. There
is no reason not to donate art to this auction, so they get lots of really
awesome stuff. I wish that other fund raisers would work this way.
Patsy
Ernesto Burciaga on mon 18 may 98
The donated work that I have given to such places and then auctioned off
never approaches the retail price. Is it a scam. Probably. Will I
continue, Probably not. It hurts me personaly as well as professionally
that the wine and cheese set get my work at a rip off price, sometimes
for 15 cents on the dollar.
Ernesto Burciaga
eburciag@rt66.com
Elca Branman on mon 18 may 98
I occasionally picketed for causes I thought worthwhile, but never did
anything else so when asked for donations,I gave and then didn't have to
deal with my guilty conscience at NOT doing anything for charity.
I also alternated years with certain local groups.
..Hey, I'd rather be making pots than going to committee meetings or
addressing envelopes.
Elca ..at home in Sarasota,Florida
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sporter on mon 18 may 98
Another aspect of this topic:
It is my understanding that an artist is only allowed to deduct the cost of
materials for any work donated to a charitable cause. In the past we have
mainly donated the works of other artists and thus we have been allowed to
count the full value as a charitable deduction. This does not make sense
and certainly makes me think twice about the cause I am donating my work
to. I wish I could be more generous but it seems that every time you
donate someone else finds out and they start knocking on your door for
another ceramic piece.
S. Porter
Wisconsin
Susan Raku on mon 18 may 98
In a message dated 98-05-17 19:50:49 EDT, you write:
<<
I think you are absolutely right to make it a condition of your donation, to
purchase your work back yourself, for the price you have placed on it, rather
than let it be discounted in the giveaway atmosphere of an auction that seems
geared to benefit the "patrons" more than the museum or the artists. In this
situation the "patrons" get cheap art and you have cheapened yourself and
your
work just like that old prof tried teach me.
>>
You can always put a minimum bid on your piece to protect yourself.
Theresa L. Jones on mon 18 may 98
I enjoy donating my work to fundraisers (of my choice) because I can make a
donation without giving actual green dollars. Understand, these are NOT
grand events with patrons. I'm more into donating to little groups trying
to save old buildings. Several of you have mentioned a desire to be invited
to the events where your work is auctioned. I don't know if there is any
correlation but I know that at one event I donate to annually, my works
often for more than the advertised retail price (which I always mark up a
little so the auction can get more). I don't know if it's related to the
fact that I'm there (and very involved in setting up this event). Maybe
organizers of these art auctions need to consider inviting the artists as a
possible way to raise the bids - you could be the "celebrity" guests.
On the subject of good deals to be had at auctions, several years ago I
donated some bowls to a silent auction raising money to restore a little
homestead. A year later, at another local event, an older lady came up to
me at my booth and told me about the good deal she got on one of my bowls in
that auction. I'm sure she did not realize that this was not a very
appreciated comment.
Theresa L. Jones
tljones@flash.net
Barney Adams on mon 18 may 98
I probably should keep my mouth shut about this, but again I
have never been very good at keeping my mouth shut. Money is the
thing. If artists were rich we'd be pampered (I'm taking some
liberties in including myself ;-) ). During the Mayan reign artist
and sages held the top positions ast they expressed the spiritual.
I think the focus of spirit over money could sway the way artists
are treated. It would probably come to meaning the artists would
have the money. This is the alignment of the world for now. It
has changed before and will again.
Barney
just a beginner wotking with itz. (itz is the Mayan word for any
sticky subtance usually blood, but I use it for clay)
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> There is another topic I've been stewing over ... the not
> infrequent requests we potters get for donations of our work to be
> sold at auction to benefit
> some worthy cause or institution.... was approached by our local
> Art and History Museum for a
> donation to their benefit auction. It's a big fancy affair that
> people dress
> up to go to and they are generally encouraged to think that they
> are being
> partons of the museum to bid for and purchase the many artworks
> that the
> museum docents have coaxed out of quite a number of artists ...
> not happy to see that though the "patrons" were
> wined and dined, flattered and thanked profusely for their
> "support", none
> of the artwork seemed to bring... retail value of the
> pieces donated by the artists. ...
>
> I have often mused about this, myself. Many many places, museums,
> public radio/tv, ask for donations from artists. These are
> usually forthcoming, no matter how poor or beleagured the artist
> might be. The objects are then auctioned, usually to a group of
> the most well-to-do, those who could or do support museums, etc.
> Sometimes they pay market value, sometimes a lot less,
> occasionally a bit more. In the course of the "auction", these
> wealthy folks are fed and pampered and generally cosseted in
> various ways. Seldom, seldom are the artists themselves invited
> to be so fed, pampered and cosseted for having given their work.
> What the museum or whatever gets is the money; what the buyer
> gets is the work or piece and lots of strokes for buying it;
> What the artist gets is a cheery "thanks, we'll call again next
> year". Hmmmmm.
>
> Dannon Rhudy
> potter@koyote.com
>
NgtvSpace on mon 18 may 98
It has been my experience that most Museums dont give a rats ass about artist,
the local gentry see us more as entertainment, if that, usually they are too
self-absorbed, what really gets me is when one of them takes ceramics thru
continuing ed and make there usual dorky pieces that are put in the auction
(as happened this spring)...This experience has made me a believer of bringing
back the hammer into the crit...
However at other auctions in another town, the Development Office was on the
ball, I think this is were the problem lies the vision and the agenda of this
department. Charity Auctions usually are good to give oneself exposure or
PR...
which I need to remember as I have been know to develop terrets syndrome in
the middle of the event and abuse the hell out of the patrons....
Lorca
Don Jones on mon 18 may 98
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>It is very odd that some organizations think artists are dying to give away
>their work for nothing, without so much as a thank you or ticket to the gala
>event.
>
>Cara
>in New Orleans
>where the "galas" seem to go on forever.
I tend to feel the same way. I give because I feel lucky that I can give
to organizations my work instead of my hard earned cash. Let the rich guys
give the cash. Still, there is the prevelent philosophy that artists are
sometimes whores who will do anything for a little exposure, put up with
anything and expect little. It is the more successful ones who suffer.
The wannabees undervalue and give the people a not so good impression of
the arts.
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
:-) implied in all messages and replies
http://highfiber.com/~claysky
Marcia Selsor on tue 19 may 98
DONPREY wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> In a message dated 05/17/98 7:08:14 AM, you wrote:
>
> <<
> My own personal reaction to this will be as follows. Next year I will not
> give the museum a $200 bowl, but something more modest that is in line with
> the amount of cash I'm willing to donate if need be. Then I'll tell the
> Museum that the minimum bid will be the retail price, which I will pay if no
> one else does. Think they'll get the message? Or am I being a twit?
> >>
Dear Michel.
I get annoyed with this constant request for donations. I have selected a few
that I will continue to support such as our local Art Museum, the University
Foundation, and the Mental Health Center which offers a ceramics program to
trouble youths. The Art Museum gives me one free ticket to the auction, my
husband has to pay $35. However, my work does
sell for higher than the normal retail price and I have had several Galleries
contact me for representation including one in Jackson Wyo
($$). This is good.
The University Foundation has been supportive to me over the many years of
employment here. I finally asked them to let me donate a piece for their
auction during our Wine Festival.
The Mental Health Center has a main fund raiser called May Clay Day.
just happen this past Saturday with hudreds of people throwing on wheels from
the University and potters from our area donating their time and skills ti
assist attempts at the wheel. $3 a try. $5 more to fire it at a local potters'
studio. In addition I donated a raku slab for the raffle.
I think we all have our community links so donating is our personal choice. I
may be more selective after I retire, but for now I enjoy what I am able to
contribute to worthy causes.
Marcia in Montana
Wendy Rosen on tue 19 may 98
Just a minute here...
Michele states... "I know they are always looking for funds. It is
the nature of the non profit world. Anything you do to help them will
not only help others, but help you as well. Your community involvement is
never wasted...."
Philanthropy may be a noble action... but too many of us (including me
sometimes) contribute to non-profits that spend far more on administration
costs and high salaries than any of us would pay ourselves... a few years
ago I looked at tha salaries of my non-profit counterpart and almost
fainted!!!
I have been to the "headquarters" of non-profits and seen for myself the
walnut paneling and marbled foyers... I've watched our symphony spend
unnecessary thousands on printing with expensive papers and fancy die-cuts
when a nice four color job would have had the same impact... one non-profit
arts organization once put most of their board members in the 4 Seasons
Hotel... while the artist members of the board were bedded at the Holiday
Inn. I'm tired of supporting stupidity, arrogance, and non-responsive
organizations that rarely provide members with detailed information about
how their donations were spent. (You can get some info from most if you
ask)
After many very bad experiences I have become very synical about my giving
efforts... I used to give a little to lots of good causes... now I give
lots more to fewer causes. But they are organizations that I know ALOT
about! My own philanthropic efforts go to the following FULLY researched
organizations.
Craft Emergency Relief Fund (No interest loans to artists in need)
Watershed Center for the Ceramic Arts (Maine, ceramics studio retreat)
The Renwick Alliance (funds used for acquisition)
Baltimore Hebrew Congregation (my temple)
Scholarships for the Craft Business Institute (my own group)
Glass Arts Society (Student Exhibit Only)
These organizations keep their overhead very low... and their service level
very high. --A good value for my hard earned dollars. Other donations go
to organizations for membership only or donations specified as restricted
funds for a single purpose.
Wendy
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have spent my life volunteering and working for non profit organizations and
>I know they are always looking for funds. It is the nature of the non profit
>world. Anything you do to help them will not only help others, but help you
>as well. Your community involvement is never waisted, because it is YOUR
>community that is helped. It is a win-win situation.
>I am new at ceramics, but I think there are many who have pieces that sit
>around waiting for the "right" buyer. We often have "seconds" or even
>deplorable "firsts" from a student like myself, that we would not want to
>release with our name on it, but then we can always remove that with a little
>grinder. Knowing that these will be around for a very long time ( like 50,000
>years or so even if they are smashed to bits), I propose that all potters
>consider finding a favorite charity or two to donate to regularly. These can
>be written off on your taxes as charitable donations and they will find a way
>to generate considerable donations for the charity and good will for you at
>the same time.
>
>Encourage your favorite charity to let people know what items like these would
>cost and where you may be contacted if they choose to buy more. I think this
>will help to increase the amount the charity gets for the items and will
>provide you with prospective customers as a "free" advertisement.
>Sincerely,
>Michele Delehanty
*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
The Buyers Markets of American Craft
http://www.rosengrp.com
The Business of Craft
http://www.americancraft.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************
Cindy on tue 19 may 98
Donated work should be just that . . . a donation. Why should we feel we
should receive some benefit from donating our work to, say, the Wild Turkey
Habitat Foundation? If you want to give, then give. No big deal. If you
don't want to give, there's always that little word, "No". Or "No thanks",
even.
When someone from these organizations calls me (and it's usually a friend I
don't want to turn down), I make a small donation. Usually, I will donate
even if I couldn't care beans about the cause because a friend is working
hard on this and I want to support him/her. I don't make large or expensive
donations because the stuff always sells for way below retail (and
sometimes below wholesale) value. If it's a cause I really believe in, it's
cheaper for me to give money than donate a high-value item that could have
been sold elsewhere at an appropriate price.
I think I kind of got away from my point, though. My point is that when I
give, I just give. Like putting money in a beggar's cup. You don't expect
to get anything out of it. You do it because you want to bless someone
else.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels
Custer, SD
USA http://blackhills-info.com/a/cindys/menu.htm
GURUSHAKTI on tue 19 may 98
It's been interesting reading this thread.
How about making a proposition to these charities -- you give a time period, a
day or a weekend, where people who feel aligned to that charity can purchase
your work and any work purchased that weekend by those who mention that they
are aligned with that particular cause, will have 30-50% of the proceeds of
those sales donated by you to that charity.
This serves on a few levels -- the contributing artist gets publicity, gets
people to buy some work and then the potter/artist gets to contribute cash to
the charity and also get the tax deduction. Hopefully, everyone will be happy
with this type of arrangement.
Warm regards,
June
millie carpenter on tue 19 may 98
Paul
do you or anyone else know what the governments rational for this policy
is? and has anyone ever challanged it?
Millie in MD. where the sun is wonderful!
> while all those businesses
> that donated goods and services can take the full price as a
> deduction, the artists can take almost nothing!
>
> Paul Lewing, Seattle
Clayphil on tue 19 may 98
I will happily donate a piece when it is in conjunction with an issue that I
feel strongly about but in the past few years the request for donations seems
to have increased dramatically. Additionally, alot of art fairs seem to be
doing the Silent Auction thing as a PR gimmick, in those cases, the main
beneficiary seems to me to be the promoter. While the concept of PR is not
lost on me, I question the real PR effectiveness of a silent auction in terms
of what the artist will get out of it. And what I really don't like most is
the potential "political" consequences with a promoter if one decides not to
contribute. There is great potential for unfairness with this stuff.
Phil Schroeder in Chicago
Penne Roberts on tue 19 may 98
Dannon,
Why don't we as a group and individually donate as many bowls as we can
afford make to the local Empty Bowls projects in your area instead of to
other organizations where little benefit to the artist is noticed. The
public pays $10 for the bowl and soup and all the money goes to the
continued effort to feed hungry folks.
Just a thought that might benefit more people and be more satisfactory
to the potter in terms of effort expended and the maximum benefit to the
public.
Penne Roberts in Albuquerque
Tim Stowell on tue 19 may 98
First it has to be for a charity or organization that we believe in.
We tell the organization what we expect to recieve for our donation:
-FREE tickets for both of us to the event.
-At least a business card next to the piece(s).
-A listing in a program if there is one...if not we suggest it.
-Announcements during whatever the event is at least suggesting that the
people patronize those businesses and people who donated work, and to
thank them when you do.
-A thank you letter after the event telling us how much money they raised
and if it was an auction, exactly how much the final bid was on our
piece. If they tell us who won the piece we send the winning bidder a
thank you note for helping a charity that we believe in and
support...they usually become good customers.
-If the piece does not reach a minimum bid we get it back and will sell
it at our next event and give them the entire price...we then tell our
customers that the purchase price of that piece is to be given to the
who-zee-whats charity...the charity then sends the person a letter of
thanks
If the charity cannot live up to these expectations we do not donate to
them...If they agree to them and we recieve no thank you letter after the
event, they go on a list and we do not donate again...If bids on the item
are not at least 50% above our wholesale price they either get a smaller
item the next year or we do not participate again (judgement call). These
criteria are all spelled out ahead of time to the charity and most of
them tell me they appreciate it and actually usually end up being the
more successful events.
Tim
Tim Stowell Gerard Stowell Pottery
Stacey Gerard 290 River Street
tstwll@juno.com Troy, NY 12180
(518)272-0983 www.trytroy.org/gerard/
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Neil Berkowitz on tue 19 may 98
As a former Development Director (and as an non-professional potter),I
took special interest in this discussion. It is correct that a donor
who is also the producer of an in-kind gift can only deduct the cost of
production. This means in-kind gifts of an individual's or company's
own products is often the least tax-friendly of any type of gift, such
as cash or non-donor-produced property. Adding to the tax disadvantages
the consensus opinion from Clayart members that below-market auction
purchases hurt the artist, it is clear that this particular type of gift
is not right for everyone.
When is it right? If you care about the organization's mission and the
in-kind donation will generate more income for them than you could give
in cash, you advance the mission more with the in-kind gift. When there
is a minimum bid mechanism, the concern about establishing an
under-market price for your work is eliminated, and it is likely that
the organization's mission will be advanced beyond what you could do
with a cash gift.
The choice to donate, whether as an in-kind or a cash gift, should be
made willingly and on the donor's interest in the organization's mission
and its place in the community. Say no when you want to. When you want
to say yes and have decided on a self-produced in-kind gift, be as
creative with your offer/donation as you are with your work. Seek
mutually beneficial solutions. Explore donating a special commission or
workshop attendance or a private lesson--and use a display of your work
at the auction event only to demonstrate your work.
--
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Neil Berkowitz
neilmber@ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~neilmber/
Jan Wax on tue 19 may 98
Getting in late on this discussion..been gone for most of the week. I feel
as put-upon as many artists who are asked repeatedly to donate art work for
various causes. Reluctantly turning down one such request recently,(it's
never easy to say no) I said that we're in a stage in our careers where
everything is selling, and to donate a $100 piece is exactly the same as if
I'd written them a check for $100.( If it's going to be a "gala" you can
hardly send them a coffee mug, right?) I offered a $10 cash donation
instead.On the other hand, sometimes we give our work to causes that are of
particular importance to us. A few months ago we experienced a memorable
fund-raiser. We live in a rural area that is home to some exceptionally
fine folk. When a beloved special ed teacher was diagnosed with pancreatic
cancer with little to no hope for recovery, a group of his friends gave him
a "send-off" at the local fairgrounds. There was music, a dance, food,
entertainment,merriment,(amazing under the circumstances, but he was a
funny guy and much-loved) and both a live and silent auction.Hundreds of
people came. All the art donated went way over the estimated cost in the
bidding, sometimes doubling it. $20,000 was raised, and he and his family
were able to take a weeklong vacation in Hawaii together. He died three
weeks later. I'll always be glad I donated to that particular fund-raiser.
Jan
http://www.pacific.net/~waxbing
Richard Selfridge on tue 19 may 98
Just a small bit of advice on this thread. It is never a good idea to
donate "seconds" or even sell them to someone who will give them as a gift.
We sometimes sell them from the pottery with a sign that says "a gift for
yourself only please". It is hard to win back a bad first impression. We
have done a lot of donating of our work and in the right circumstances it
can really pay off. I have written an article which will be published in
Ceramics Monthly soon which explains our experiences with marketing and
finding your target audience.
Richard Selfridge
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/selfridg
Barbara Lewis on tue 19 may 98
I learned the hard way so now when I give work I establish a minimum bid.
If the minimum bid is not fetched, the piece is returned to me and I make a
cash donation, though I don't feel bound that the cash donation be
equivalent to the value of the donated piece. I believe these art auctions
have gotten the reputation that it is a "great place to get good art cheap."
I don't think that's what we want the public to think about our art work. It
is just one more example of how our society devalues the work of artists.
I recently participated in an art auction where the artists established a
minimum bid, which they received for their piece. Any money received over
and above that amount went to the charity. This means that the charity
might not make quite as much money, but this auction has grown in size with
more artists wanting to participate. Barbara
At 10:45 AM 5/18/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>>
>>It is very odd that some organizations think artists are dying to give away
>>their work for nothing, without so much as a thank you or ticket to the gala
>>event.
>>
>>Cara
>>in New Orleans
>>where the "galas" seem to go on forever.
>
>I tend to feel the same way. I give because I feel lucky that I can give
>to organizations my work instead of my hard earned cash. Let the rich guys
>give the cash. Still, there is the prevelent philosophy that artists are
>sometimes whores who will do anything for a little exposure, put up with
>anything and expect little. It is the more successful ones who suffer.
>The wannabees undervalue and give the people a not so good impression of
>the arts.
>
>Don Jones
>claysky@highfiber.com
> :-) implied in all messages and replies
>http://highfiber.com/~claysky
>
WellSpring ClayWorks
5412 Well Spring Road
La Plata, MD 20646
blewis@crosslink.net
(301) 932-3915
Dannon Rhudy on wed 20 may 98
Penne,
I do donate to Empty Bowls, and not just here. And, I donate
to public tv and public radio, because I listen/watch those when
I've time. And I've other places I give, and priveleged to do so.
But that does not prevent me musing about the oddity
of asking for donations from those least likely to have much to
spare, in order to flatter, cosset and coddle those MOST likely
to have things spare-able. But, then - nothing odder than folk,
is there?
I found Wendy Rosen's remarks about how she chooses where/to whom
to donate very sensible - it's how I choose, too. I look where
the money goes, first. Marble floors? Panelled walls? Private
planes? I don't think so.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
Dannon,
Why don't we as a group and individually donate as many
bowls as we can
afford make to the local Empty Bowls projects in your area instead
of to
other organizations where little benefit to the artist is noticed.
The
public pays $10 for the bowl and soup and all the money goes to
the
continued effort to feed hungry folks.
Just a thought that might benefit more people and be more
satisfactory
to the potter in terms of effort expended and the maximum benefit
to the
public.
Penne Roberts in Albuquerque
Dannon Rhudy on wed 20 may 98
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
Just a small bit of advice on this thread. It is never a good idea
to
donate "seconds" .....
I absolutely agree, here. I would not "donate" to any
group/organization something that was less than the best I could
do at the time. I'd be embarrassed to do so, frankly. Either
I support and glad to, or not. And that is aside from any issues
of reputation and so on.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
Olivia T Cavy on wed 20 may 98
Neil's comments about the deductibility of in-kind gifts is well phrased,
and I would add that the value of ANYONE's time is NEVER a tax deduction.
This is true whether I normally earn $8 an hour or $80 an hour or $800 an
hour (in my dreams!). So if I donate a gift of my time, I can deduct
NOTHING. This doesn't mean that my time is worth nothing. It means that
the IRS will not give me a charitable deduction for my time. Perhaps that
is why I can only deduct the material, out of pocket costs of production
when I donate a pot I've made.
If I volunteer to work for a tax-deductible organization, I cannot deduct
anything for my time. I can, however, take a deduction for my out of
pocket expenses, including travel, if I itemize deductions on a Schedule
A or if I can consider the volunteer work as advertising for my sole
proprietorship business on my Schedule C. I'm not defending the law; just
describing how things work today.
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
Pittsburgh, PA
work email: oliviatcavy@juno.com
home email: mou10man@sgi.net
On Tue, 19 May 1998 08:50:23 EDT Neil Berkowitz
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>As a former Development Director (and as an non-professional potter),I
>took special interest in this discussion. It is correct that a donor
>who is also the producer of an in-kind gift can only deduct the cost
>of
>production. This means in-kind gifts of an individual's or company's
>own products is often the least tax-friendly of any type of gift, such
>as cash or non-donor-produced property. Adding to the tax
>disadvantages
>the consensus opinion from Clayart members that below-market auction
>purchases hurt the artist, it is clear that this particular type of
>gift
>is not right for everyone.
>
>When is it right? If you care about the organization's mission and
>the
>in-kind donation will generate more income for them than you could
>give
>in cash, you advance the mission more with the in-kind gift. When
>there
>is a minimum bid mechanism, the concern about establishing an
>under-market price for your work is eliminated, and it is likely that
>the organization's mission will be advanced beyond what you could do
>with a cash gift.
>
>The choice to donate, whether as an in-kind or a cash gift, should be
>made willingly and on the donor's interest in the organization's
>mission
>and its place in the community. Say no when you want to. When you
>want
>to say yes and have decided on a self-produced in-kind gift, be as
>creative with your offer/donation as you are with your work. Seek
>mutually beneficial solutions. Explore donating a special commission
>or
>workshop attendance or a private lesson--and use a display of your
>work
>at the auction event only to demonstrate your work.
>
>
>--
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>Neil Berkowitz
>neilmber@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.netcom.com/~neilmber/
>
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KellDogn on wed 20 may 98
Yes, there is alot of wasted money in the art world. Just check the budgets of
local theater groups or art museums. See how much they spend on shipping,
production and yes, saleries. I used to work for a crafts organization in
Kentucky. The administrators were not highly paid. The board members were/are
from tobacco and liquer money and were not all that sympathetic towards the
artists.( Talk about people that always shop for the discount. But we put on
quality shows, tried and did effect art education in the community, and
education for the crafts people, gave scholarships to artsits, and put on
openings that brought and kept the art community together. I never felt that I
was paid a healthy salary but one that paid most of the bills.
Granted, I always felt that the higher ups were not that sensitive to the
artists that we served and whenever I could I fought for the artists' side.
The artists were pretty savy to the tightrope that we staff tried to walk
between different interests.
A similar arts organization in the same town holds an art auction every year
for arts scholarships and the local art school. I still give a piece each
year. This organization gives the artist good publicity; publishing a calander
that pictures everyones' artwork, a party, and handles things fairly
smooothly-- they care. Every year that I have entered my work it has
brought in more than it was retailed for. Now I realize that not all artists'
work brought in fair prices but thats what an auction is.
Arts organizations are just organizations that are run by people. Don't bite
the hand that may feed you. I realize that Wendy you give money not artwork
this is a much different way of giving than donating artwork. We all must make
the choices that work for us.
Chris Greenman
kelldogn@aol.com
Cheryl L Litman on wed 20 may 98
Wendy,
A few years ago the local head of United Way was brought up on charges of
misuse of funds. He paid himself better than $1 million in salary! I've
been strongly pressured by companies I've worked for to donate to United
Way and I've always resented their heavy handed tactics.
Another "charity" I gave up donating to is the PBA when it was disclosed
that the fundraisers are paid professional who keep 90% of what they
collect. And they collect a lot because who feels comfortable turning
down the police!
Then there are all the ones who prey by using similar names. Like the
American Cancer Fund and the Cancer Society Fund and the Children's
Cancer Fund all of which were just "outed" recently in our local paper.
Cheryl Litman
Somerset, NJ
email: cheryllitman@juno.com
On Tue, 19 May 1998 08:31:31 EDT Wendy Rosen
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>Just a minute here...
>
> Michele states... "I know they are always looking for funds.
>It is
>the nature of the non profit world. Anything you do to help them
>will
>not only help others, but help you as well. Your community
>involvement is
>never wasted...."
>
>Philanthropy may be a noble action... but too many of us (including me
>sometimes) contribute to non-profits that spend far more on
>administration
>costs and high salaries than any of us would pay ourselves... a few
>years
>ago I looked at tha salaries of my non-profit counterpart and almost
>fainted!!!
>
>I have been to the "headquarters" of non-profits and seen for myself
>the
>walnut paneling and marbled foyers... I've watched our symphony spend
>unnecessary thousands on printing with expensive papers and fancy
>die-cuts
>when a nice four color job would have had the same impact... one
>non-profit
>arts organization once put most of their board members in the 4
>Seasons
>Hotel... while the artist members of the board were bedded at the
>Holiday
>Inn. I'm tired of supporting stupidity, arrogance, and non-responsive
>organizations that rarely provide members with detailed information
>about
>how their donations were spent. (You can get some info from most if
>you
>ask)
>
>After many very bad experiences I have become very synical about my
>giving
>efforts... I used to give a little to lots of good causes... now I
>give
>lots more to fewer causes. But they are organizations that I know ALOT
>about! My own philanthropic efforts go to the following FULLY
>researched
>organizations.
>
> Craft Emergency Relief Fund (No interest loans to artists in
>need)
> Watershed Center for the Ceramic Arts (Maine, ceramics studio
>retreat)
> The Renwick Alliance (funds used for acquisition)
> Baltimore Hebrew Congregation (my temple)
> Scholarships for the Craft Business Institute (my own group)
> Glass Arts Society (Student Exhibit Only)
>
>These organizations keep their overhead very low... and their service
>level
>very high. --A good value for my hard earned dollars. Other
>donations go
>to organizations for membership only or donations specified as
>restricted
>funds for a single purpose.
>
>Wendy
>
>>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>>I have spent my life volunteering and working for non profit
>organizations and
>>I know they are always looking for funds. It is the nature of the
>non profit
>>world. Anything you do to help them will not only help others, but
>help you
>>as well. Your community involvement is never waisted, because it is
>YOUR
>>community that is helped. It is a win-win situation.
>>I am new at ceramics, but I think there are many who have pieces that
>sit
>>around waiting for the "right" buyer. We often have "seconds" or
>even
>>deplorable "firsts" from a student like myself, that we would not
>want to
>>release with our name on it, but then we can always remove that with
>a little
>>grinder. Knowing that these will be around for a very long time (
>like 50,000
>>years or so even if they are smashed to bits), I propose that all
>potters
>>consider finding a favorite charity or two to donate to regularly.
>These can
>>be written off on your taxes as charitable donations and they will
>find a way
>>to generate considerable donations for the charity and good will for
>you at
>>the same time.
>>
>>Encourage your favorite charity to let people know what items like
>these would
>>cost and where you may be contacted if they choose to buy more. I
>think this
>>will help to increase the amount the charity gets for the items and
>will
>>provide you with prospective customers as a "free" advertisement.
>>Sincerely,
>>Michele Delehanty
>
>
>
>*******************************************
>Wendy Rosen
>The Rosen Group
>Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
> http://americanstyle.com
>The Buyers Markets of American Craft
> http://www.rosengrp.com
>The Business of Craft
> http://www.americancraft.com
>3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
>Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
>*******************************************
>
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lpskeen on wed 20 may 98
Wendy Rosen wrote:>
> Philanthropy may be a noble action... but too many of us (including me
> sometimes) contribute to non-profits that spend far more on administration cos
Wendy,
A-bloody-MEN!!!!! Well said. I used to volunteer for our local AIDS
service organization until the BS just got too much. Every year the end
of June they have a fund raiser where folks hold dinner parties and the
attendees give money for the ASO. I have been asked every year if I
will give or go to a party, and I have decided against it for the last 2
years because it appears to me that the money is spent more on the
office than the clients.
The only donations I have made lately are when a show is doing a door
prize sort of thing.
--
Lisa Skeen
Living Tree Pottery & Soaps
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful
words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of
the good people." -- Dr. M. L. King, Jr. 4/16/63
Michael McDowell on thu 21 may 98
Just to clarify my position to the rest of you as the continuing thread
clarifies it to me:
My particular concern, which I can see is only one of many, has to do with
donations to arts organizations in particular, that have it as part of their
mission to educate the public about the arts. As the discussion on pricing
has from time to time offered, in this world the prices at which things
change hands is itself an important form of communication and education. In
this particular context, an auction of donated art to generate funds to
support that mission of education amongst others, allowing the art to pass
on at less than retail prices is counter-productive to the mission itself.
I have no wish to circumscribe the continuing thread. It appears to be
serving many purposes. For my own part, I feel it has armed me with a
variety of tools and strategies that will allow me to structure my support
of the local art & history museum without allowing it to unwittingly (I'm
sure) undermine it's support for me. I've been encouraged in particular by
Bonnie Hellman's off the list dialogue with me on this to shoot for
something more. I'm not sure I'm going to find the time and energy for this
soon, but it seems that through direct communication with the highest level
paid staff that I can arrange I might be able to gently jog them into
awareness that these cross-purposes exist. Again thanks to this thread, I
may be able to suggest some palatable strategies to them for then furthering
their purposes without too greatly altering what has come to be a time
honored and prestigious function for them.
Thanks again, Clayart!
Michael McDowell
Whatcom County, WA USA
http://www2.memes.com/mmpots
mmpots@memes.com
Mudnjoy on sat 23 may 98
> I propose that all potters
> consider finding a favorite charity or two to donate to regularly. These
> can
> be written off on your taxes as charitable donations and they will find a
> way
> to generate considerable donations for the charity and good will for you at
> the same time.
Bad news friends, you can not write off even the wholesale value of donated
art you create yourself. What is deductible is the cost of the materials, &
you already wrote that off as a business expense. When some one request a
donation I ask myself am I willing to support this cause anyway? I ask the
charity what form of publicity they give their artists, do they publish my
name and a contact phone # or address? Will they post my name & artist's
statement with the works?
The IRS plays hardball.
Joy in Tucson It's my birthday & I'll play if I want to. Grouting those
tiles at the elementary school today, they just look wonderful can't believe
5th graders made them, some have quilt like qualities some resemble Navajo
blankets.
CaraMox on sat 23 may 98
All of the discussion on donated work (and my own irritations regarding it)
reminded me of something that happened a couple of years ago -- The local non-
profit arts center was having their biennial *Garage Art Sale*, and asked
artists to donate seconds and such. a group of established artists were
invited to donate better work for auction, to be held the night before the
sale would begin, the rest would be sold a set prices the next day. I donated
a smallish sculpture, nice, but not in the direction I was going. I would
have set the retail around $100-120. The work was vetted by a couple of
gallery directors who put a tag on it of $15! This was quite a bit below what
comparable sculptures were being priced at (around $70-95) and I mentioned
something to the sale organizer about it the day before the auction (I was
embarrassed). She quietly changed the price, to $65. The evening of the
auction, one patron was so taken by the sculpture that she bought it right
there, and took it to her car before the auction to make sure no one else got
a hold of it. It was the first piece to sell. And she has been quite
interested in seeing what else I have done over the years. I have often
wondered why the vetters priced that piece so low (it wasn't so bad that it
couldn't sell, obviously) and laugh about it now.
There were several local artists who were so offended by the idea of their art
being sold in a *garage sale* that they backed out of their statements to
donate something. But it was a way by which everyone knew the art sold was
seconds, not primo work at cut prices. Is this a better solution?
Cara
KLeSueur on sat 23 may 98
The government limitations on deductions for artwork that is donated for an
auction can make it difficult to justify donating the work. Afterall if the
piece normally sells for $200, you have donated $200 dollars.
A possible solution to this dilemma is to contact another artist who would be
donating his work. Buy something of equal value from him and have him buy a
piece of your work. Be sure to pay by check and cash the checks so there is a
record of the transaction. Then each of you can donate the other's work for
the auction and take the full deduction.
Kathi LeSueur
Marcia Selsor on sun 24 may 98
One thing I do at the University is this. Every semester my students have
their potters' guild sale. I donate all my demos to the sale. I let them keep
the money for trips usually, but lately I have begun taking that money to our
Foundation and donating it to a scholarship fund for ceramics students. (I can
write it off as a cash donation as well).
Marcia Selsor
in Montana
Mudnjoy wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > I propose that all potters
> > consider finding a favorite charity or two to donate to regularly. These
> > can
> > be written off on your taxes as charitable donations and they will find a
> > way
> > to generate considerable donations for the charity and good will for you at
> > the same time.
>
> Bad news friends, you can not write off even the wholesale value of donated
> art you create yourself. What is deductible is the cost of the materials, &
> you already wrote that off as a business expense. When some one request a
> donation I ask myself am I willing to support this cause anyway? I ask the
> charity what form of publicity they give their artists, do they publish my
> name and a contact phone # or address? Will they post my name & artist's
> statement with the works?
> The IRS plays hardball.
> Joy in Tucson It's my birthday & I'll play if I want to. Grouting those
> tiles at the elementary school today, they just look wonderful can't believe
> 5th graders made them, some have quilt like qualities some resemble Navajo
> blankets.
FRANK GAYDOS on mon 25 may 98
Each year our more advanced students hold a pottery sale right before
Christmas. All of the faculty donate their demos and bring in some
seconds and price them accordingly. All the profits are used to send
interested students to the NCECA conference. On average $2500.00 is
raised, sometimes more and less. Ideally, we send four students, all
expenses paid. Its a great experience for the students.
--
Frank Gaydos
510 Gerritt St.
Philadelphia,Pa.19147-5821 USA
fgaydos@erols.com
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