Janet H Walker on mon 8 jun 98
Arghh. (Why can't I leave this one alone? I don't have anything to
say about art and craft really. There is nothing new to say. Only
a few things already better said by others to remind other others about.)
...I guess we are all just so used to it that we just try to ignore it.
ceramics (and photography) have long been considered craft--NOT art.
I'm not sure why. I suppose they both CAN be just craft, but in my
opinion they can also be both....
It's just a game of words. Why does it irk us that clay and
photography are "just" craft? In some cultures even today, craft is
considered a good thing.
In the US at least, even some people doing craft want to be regarded
as doing art. Why? No simple answer probably; it's all in the
sociology of where you live.
In the popular perception in the US, art is "better" than craft.
Who says? The fine arts media, the academic establishment, the
gallery owners, and the other people who put price tags
(i.e. "value") on things. That's who. So why listen? Good
question. It is hard to even see the fundamental unspoken
assumptions that shape our perceptions of the value of people and
products, much less decide to think or live counter to them.
Paintings are automatically fine art by the media-based definition
of fine art that is used by art departments and writers on art. On
the other hand, there are lots of original paintings in the "fine
art galleries" around here that would not be regarded as "art" by
academic art departments. Still, the hourly shop rate for these
skilled craft painters is much higher than that for potters.
When you get beyond definitions of fine art that are based on
medium, "art" in its academic definition now has an
implication/requirement of "individualism", which is highly prized
in the US. Much more highly prized more than skill. Skill is
regarded with suspicion, as perhaps being an indicator that the
person is "just" skillful.
Ever asked yourself why artists' statements are full of focus on the
inner feelings of the artist? Why it is so important to be able to
express in words why you are making something? Who cares? The fine
arts media, the academic establishment, and the gallery owners,
that's who. And many art collectors need external assurances that
what they are buying is "art". That statement is where you prove
that there's more in it than "just" skill.
As an ad for a local family business says "Being a family business
is why we come to the store, not why you shop here." So why I make
one kind of thing from clay rather than another is why I do it, not
why someone else should like it or buy it. How's this: If the maker
has to explain its existence, it's art; if the buyer can see for
themselves that it has something to offer them, it's craft...
This is a just-by-definition thing. There's no point to putting
energy into trying to change people's perceptions. Just do what you
do and make sure you do it with integrity and skill. Even if your
consists consists of making it look as if you don't have skill.
Then you can live with yourself.
Also, read Peter Dormer's "Culture of Craft", "The Art of the Maker"
and Yanagi's "The Unknown Craftsman" for deeper perspectives.
Jan Walker
Cambridge MA USA
Joy Holdread on tue 9 jun 98
Once a gallery owner said she wished I wouldn't sign my tile wall pieces. I
sign in the lower left hand corner. I asked her if clients had a problem with
painters signing their work. She gave me a blank look. Good grief, I've
educated the general public for years but gallery owners too??? Joy in
Tucson
Lorca Beebe on tue 9 jun 98
I know this subject is redundant and most people seem to be tired of it. But
it still comes up sooooooooooo its still an issue, that we havent resolved. I
dont believe that it will be resolved thru manifestos, but in the work of
individidual clay artist. I do believe that it is very important to articulate
your philosophy about your pottery or whatever.
I think there is an over generalization that "all" painters are considered
fine artist, excuse me but I have been to craft fairs and have seen many
"genre" paintings, these are usually landscapes, portraits, and still lifes,
usually in water color or oils in many cases it is more than evident that the
aritists are "self-taught", (these paintings are soooooo realistic it seems a
shame to go thru all that when I can now take a picture of it and run in thru
the computer and put it thru special effect filters).....Painting was a craft
up and well into the 20th century, paintings were done to match couches, to
adorn a salon, to serve a particular "function", decoration, once the domain
of the "craftsman" became the concern of the "self-concious" designer,
educated painters are aware of this, Painters talk alot I MEAN ALOT about the
craft of there medium, I think it is a serious misconception that painter are
without craft, maybe the tren of the 80's left us with this myth, with
corporate collections falling apart, paintings sold to the highest bider with
no craft...Someone said something to me last fall and it really didnt sit well
with me, she said that painting was the first medium to "function" or
"perform" as nothing else but a painting, I was really pist, but in
retrospect I can see her point of view, in another post someone mentioned
about a department removing the wheels in order to force the students to make
other types of forms with clay, I dont agree with excluding the functional
aspects of clay from a department, I encourage students to do functional stuff
particularly when there stuck, this side tangents usually feeds other work,
nevertheless I believe that even though ceramics has to find its own
particular formal vocabulary, it also has to move beyond Gotftfried Sempers'
and the study of function, he insisted on paying proper regard to the relation
of purpose, material and technique or maybe we havent focused well enough on
this issue, ....I think that for the most part it is easier to sell ceramics
than paintings...
Lorca
Lorca Beebe on wed 10 jun 98
I kind of have a weird habit, I dont like signing any of my pieces as this
becomes part of the visual or formal element of the work, not even
paintings...people usually get on my case about it, I always say its not mine
anymore after I've made it, and who can mistake this for anything but a
Lorca...
Lorca
Carl meigs on thu 11 jun 98
When I named my pottery I dealt with the art-craft thing by letting someone
else worry about it. The slogan for my pottery is "Useful and Useless Pottery"
Think about it.
Carl Meigs
At 10:13 AM 6/9/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I know this subject is redundant and most people seem to be tired of it. But
>it still comes up sooooooooooo its still an issue, that we havent resolved. I
>dont believe that it will be resolved thru manifestos, but in the work of
>individidual clay artist. I do believe that it is very important to articulate
>your philosophy about your pottery or whatever.
>I think there is an over generalization that "all" painters are considered
>fine artist, excuse me but I have been to craft fairs and have seen many
>"genre" paintings, these are usually landscapes, portraits, and still lifes,
>usually in water color or oils in many cases it is more than evident that the
>aritists are "self-taught", (these paintings are soooooo realistic it seems a
>shame to go thru all that when I can now take a picture of it and run in thru
>the computer and put it thru special effect filters).....Painting was a craft
>up and well into the 20th century, paintings were done to match couches, to
>adorn a salon, to serve a particular "function", decoration, once the domain
>of the "craftsman" became the concern of the "self-concious" designer,
>educated painters are aware of this, Painters talk alot I MEAN ALOT about the
>craft of there medium, I think it is a serious misconception that painter are
>without craft, maybe the tren of the 80's left us with this myth, with
>corporate collections falling apart, paintings sold to the highest bider with
>no craft...Someone said something to me last fall and it really didnt sit well
>with me, she said that painting was the first medium to "function" or
>"perform" as nothing else but a painting, I was really pist, but in
>retrospect I can see her point of view, in another post someone mentioned
>about a department removing the wheels in order to force the students to make
>other types of forms with clay, I dont agree with excluding the functional
>aspects of clay from a department, I encourage students to do functional stuff
>particularly when there stuck, this side tangents usually feeds other work,
>nevertheless I believe that even though ceramics has to find its own
>particular formal vocabulary, it also has to move beyond Gotftfried Sempers'
>and the study of function, he insisted on paying proper regard to the relation
>of purpose, material and technique or maybe we havent focused well enough on
>this issue, ....I think that for the most part it is easier to sell ceramics
>than paintings...
>
>Lorca
>
>
meigs@neca.com
Vicki Katz on wed 17 jun 98
Last Saturday my local art club held the annual instillation brunch at my
house. Since I joined the club 18 months ago, I have written the newsletter &
distributed it ( no small job ). In addition, I have attended the board
meetings, monthly meetings, held a mosaic tile workshop at my home, held the
Christmas party at my home, etc. In other words, I feel that I have certainly
contributed to the club.
Well, the founding president ( no longer active ) sat at my table & announced
that she was going to make a motion to EXCLUDE crafts from the club - crafts
like photography, pottery, etc. - afterall, the entent of the club was never
to include crafts. I calmly discussed her point of view with her & one member
sitting to my left even came to me after I left the table & sang my praise as
to how diplomatically I addressed what this woman was proposing. My response
even then was that in my life I had debated topics MUCH more important than
craft vs. art.
The point is that I enjoy the club - at least 25% of the active members are
NOT two deminsional artist - and, thanks in part to me our president is a
potter ( friend who I nominated ). I was offended by this woman's intent.
I think that as long as 2 deminsional artist consider their work as elite, and
pottery as craft this debate will go on in this country. And I think the
potters will suffer because of exclusion.
Vicki Katz
Sugar Land, TX
Tim Stowell on fri 19 jun 98
Vicki Katz stated:
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I think that as long as 2 deminsional artist consider their work as
elite, and
>pottery as craft this debate will go on in this country. And I think
the
>potters will suffer because of exclusion.
I must disagree on this one point Vicki, as long as those 2D artists
continue to possess elitist attitudes there will be little effect on the
pottery in this country. Those elitist attitudes are there because of the
fears and insecurities of those who possess them. Pottery will continue
to grow and prosper no matter what the art snobs think or do. They
couldn't control the different painting "schools" through the centuries
and they sure as hell aren't going to be able to control a bunch of crazy
potters. Many painters are so jealous of us that they are starting to
become potters at a much faster rate than we are becoming painters.
Tim
Tim Stowell Gerard Stowell Pottery
290 River Street
tstwll@juno.com Troy, NY 12180
www.trytroy.org/gerard/
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Vicki Katz on sat 20 jun 98
Tim, thank you for your opinion. I respect your wisdom and hope that you are
correct. We mudbugs WILL endure.
Vicki Katz
Les Crimp on mon 22 jun 98
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Vicki Katz stated:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I think that as long as 2 deminsional artist consider their work as
>elite, and
>>pottery as craft this debate will go on in this country. And I think
>the
>>potters will suffer because of exclusion.
>
>I must disagree on this one point Vicki, as long as those 2D artists
>continue to possess elitist attitudes there will be little effect on the
>pottery in this country. Those elitist attitudes are there because of the
>fears and insecurities of those who possess them. Pottery will continue
>to grow and prosper no matter what the art snobs think or do. They
>couldn't control the different painting "schools" through the centuries
>and they sure as hell aren't going to be able to control a bunch of crazy
>potters. Many painters are so jealous of us that they are starting to
>become potters at a much faster rate than we are becoming painters.
>
>Tim
>
>
>Tim Stowell Gerard Stowell Pottery
> 290 River Street
>tstwll@juno.com Troy, NY 12180
> www.trytroy.org/gerard/
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>Hi All -
I am just re-reading Bernard Leach's "A Potter's Book". His first chapter
seems to have a lot of answers to the "art/craft" discussion.
When he quotes Soetsu Yabagi's essay it is quite revealing. Yanagi says - "
I have many occasions to call at the residences of well-known art
collectors, but I find too often that the articles of EVERYDAY use in their
homes are far from being artistic, to say the least. They often leave me
with a sad suspicion as to haw much these collectors really appreciate beauty."
Les Crimp in Nanoose Bay, B.C. where life on the Pacific Coast couldn's be
better with weather like this!!
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