J. D. Walker on tue 9 jun 98
I have been quite in the backgroung but must now ask a question.
Why is art only considered art when it serves no function? And if so Why do=
we
place Functional Works from the GREEKS, CHINESE, KOREANS, etc... into =
museaums
if they are not art?
Just a lowly potters question. I'll probly get pounded on this one, but it =
has
always bugged me when the question of functional vs art comes up.
jeff
potting in missouri and loving it
Talbott on wed 10 jun 98
What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman? In my opinion it
is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him or her above a craftsman.
You can't be an artist unless you are a craftsman but you can be a
craftsman without being an artist. I consider myself to be a craftsman but
not an artist. However, I consider Celia, my wife, to be an artist as she
can not only execute her craft with considerable skill but she can as well
design forms that are truely unique and appealing. I think that you can
learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it. Some
potters are craftsmen and some potters are artists. You don't need to look
too long at a potter's work in order to determine which category they
belong to. ....Marshall
http://www.PotteryInfo.com
101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorca Beebe on wed 10 jun 98
Art does serve a "function"!, it is not necesarily what the artwork does for
the individual but what the individual or viewer brings to the piece. Some
pieces function just to be beautiful, like Miss Universe, some change our
perspective of how we look at things visually, how we look at space or how we
look at socio-political issues...
As far as the collection of pottery, I really get sick of looking at pots
under vitrines with hotspots from the gallery lights...this manner of
collection to me seems very "imperial", I am always ???? cant quite find a
word, mixed emotions, about the need to display objects of conquest, or
objects that demonstrate power as in objects of colonial subjects or objects
that prove superiority thru history and grandeur....
Lorca
Andi Cody on thu 11 jun 98
I have been lurking around here, just taking in all the comments, but I had
to comment on this one. I totally agree with Marshall that one can be
taught the craft but not how to be an artist. This is something I struggle
with constantly, as I try to learn all the technique of throwing, glazing
and firing. I have had about three years of ceramics classes at a local
community college but I never felt that I got much from the teacher of the
class as she was too busy dealing with 1st semester students, so most of my
skills have been self taught and learned from other more advanced students
in the class. My husband and I bought a used kick wheel 2 years ago which
is on our back patio and we have a small electric kiln (without a
pyrometer, so we are guessing at temps we fire to). My point is, I feel
like I am slowly learning the "craft" of pottery, but I doubt whether I
will ever consider my pottery "art". I am happy at this point just to have
consistent results in what I throw. I also agree that someone who masters
the craft may not always have the ability or imagination (something I
sometimes think I lack) to do innovative designs. Is this something I
could "learn" if I went back to school and took a design course?
Andi in San Diego where June gloom has set in and we haven't seen the sun
for a few days
At 09:35 AM 6/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman? In my opinion it
>is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him or her above a craftsman.
>You can't be an artist unless you are a craftsman but you can be a
>craftsman without being an artist. I consider myself to be a craftsman but
>not an artist. However, I consider Celia, my wife, to be an artist as she
>can not only execute her craft with considerable skill but she can as well
>design forms that are truely unique and appealing. I think that you can
>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
>believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it. Some
>potters are craftsmen and some potters are artists. You don't need to look
>too long at a potter's work in order to determine which category they
>belong to. ....Marshall
>
> http://www.PotteryInfo.com
>
> 101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
> 2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
> E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
>
> Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
> Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
thanks,
Andi
email: mailto:acody@ucsd.edu
Craig Martell on thu 11 jun 98
At 09:35 AM 6/10/98 EDT, Marshall wrote:
> What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman? In my opinion it
>is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him or her above a craftsman.
I think that you can
>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>inherited talent.
Hey Marshall:
Sure you can learn to be a designer. We had to take design courses at the
two schools I went to and learning the principles of Applied Design DID
improve our ability to design stuff. But, once the principles of design are
learned, I believe one must apply expression, vision, and some sort of
aesthetic to make art. These things don't come easily and take some time
and conviction to work into your vocabulary.
I think it's a mistake to believe that artists are born, not made. Some
people are more visual and have incredible aptitudes for making and
understanding art. But I think that savoring and experiencing life and it's
nuances in a visual way can make more people than we would believe, artists.
Perhaps the problem with defining "artist", is not so much a process or
product oriented scale of success, but the unwillingness to think about the
importance of the impact of "art" coming from the fabric and experience of a
person's life and their desire to express this stuff in a visual way. And,
as successful as some artists and artisans are, there is always the social
stigma of making your way and living in this way instead of trucking off to
a "real" job every day. In other words, there might be more artists if
people felt that these pursuits were of more value to society in general.
If there were not art and music, I'd be more than happy to go back to where
I came from.
regards, Craig Martell-Oregon
Lee Love on thu 11 jun 98
Hi Marshall,
-----Original Message-----
From: Talbott :
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman?
This higher or lower comparison is cultural baggage and is not
universal. In many cultures, art is not placed above craft.
> In my opinion it is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him
>or her above a craftsman. You can't be an artist unless you are a
>craftsman but you can be a craftsman without being an artist.
It might have been true in the past, that all artists were
craftsmen, but post modernism turned all that on its ear. I once heard
the late Philip Rawson speak at the Walker Art Center. He spoke about
how traditionally, until recently, all art had a functional aspect. He
also spoke about how some artists were not really artists, but only
designers with no craft skill (they design without ever touching the
materials and have craftsmen do the "crafting" for them.) It just so
happened that Jeff Koons was having a show at the Walker and Rawson used him
as an example of a craftless artist.
> I consider myself to be a craftsman but not an artist. <...>
Of course, the studio potter is envolved in design, weither we draw
things on paper, in our heads or on the wheel. We can emphasise this
aspect to the degree we want. The overemphasis of design in art is a real
problem. Designers are not artists. They should be given credit for
designing the work, but the craftsmen who make it should be given credit for
bringing the design to life.
/(o\' Lee In Saint Paul, Minnesota USA
\o)/' mailto:Ikiru@Kami.com ' http://www.millcomm.com/~leelove/ikiru.html
John Hesselberth on fri 12 jun 98
I categorically reject the idea that you cannot learn to be an artist.
Craft is primarily a left brained activity. Art is primarily a right
brained activity with obvious overlaps for both. I am absolutely certain
one can learn to consciously switch from using the left brain to using
the right brain--it takes practice and training, but it can be taught and
learned. I think it follows that one can develop artistic capability
once one becomes comfortable using their right brain.
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have been lurking around here, just taking in all the comments, but I had
>to comment on this one. I totally agree with Marshall that one can be
>taught the craft but not how to be an artist. This is something I struggle
>with constantly, as I try to learn all the technique of throwing, glazing
>and firing. I have had about three years of ceramics classes at a local
>community college but I never felt that I got much from the teacher of the
>class as she was too busy dealing with 1st semester students, so most of my
>skills have been self taught and learned from other more advanced students
>in the class. My husband and I bought a used kick wheel 2 years ago which
>is on our back patio and we have a small electric kiln (without a
>pyrometer, so we are guessing at temps we fire to). My point is, I feel
>like I am slowly learning the "craft" of pottery, but I doubt whether I
>will ever consider my pottery "art". I am happy at this point just to have
>consistent results in what I throw. I also agree that someone who masters
>the craft may not always have the ability or imagination (something I
>sometimes think I lack) to do innovative designs. Is this something I
>could "learn" if I went back to school and took a design course?
>
>Andi in San Diego where June gloom has set in and we haven't seen the sun
>for a few days
>
>At 09:35 AM 6/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> What distinguishes an artist above a craftsman? In my opinion it
>>is the artist's ability to DESIGN that sets him or her above a craftsman.
>>You can't be an artist unless you are a craftsman but you can be a
>>craftsman without being an artist. I consider myself to be a craftsman but
>>not an artist. However, I consider Celia, my wife, to be an artist as she
>>can not only execute her craft with considerable skill but she can as well
>>design forms that are truely unique and appealing. I think that you can
>>learn to become a craftsman BUT I truely do not believe that you can learn
>>to be a designer. The ability to design seems to be more or less an
>>inherited talent. I think that you can improve your designing skills but I
>>believe that you first have to have a certain instinct for it. Some
>>potters are craftsmen and some potters are artists. You don't need to look
>>too long at a potter's work in order to determine which category they
>>belong to. ....Marshall
>>
>> http://www.PotteryInfo.com
>>
>> 101 CLAYART MUGS (Summer 1998)
>> 2ND ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
>> E-MAIL ME FOR APPLICATIONS
>>
>> Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
>> Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
>thanks,
>
>Andi
>
>email: mailto:acody@ucsd.edu
John Hesselberth
Frog Pond Pottery
Pocopson, PA 19366 USA
EMail: john@frogpondpottery.com
visit my web site at http://www.frogpondpottery.com
"Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed and in such
desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace with his companions,
perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the
music he hears, however measured or far away." Henry David Thoreau,
Walden, 1854
the Gallagher's on sun 14 jun 98
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I categorically reject the idea that you cannot learn to be an artist.
Craft is primarily a left brained activity. Art is primarily a right
brained activity with obvious overlaps for both. I am absolutely certain
one can learn to consciously switch from using the left brain to using
the right brain--it takes practice and training, but it can be taught and
learned. I think it follows that one can develop artistic capability
once one becomes comfortable using their right brain.
I agree to a certain degree, as I alternately switch from one thinking process
to another, but not in the same hour, it's too confusing....makes my head
ache!! Consequently, I do my bookkeeping on a day that I am not playing in
clay, and the keyboard stays cleaner that way too!
On a more serious side, artistic ability is something that some people are
more driven to express, it gets unlearned or squashed out of only the hardiest
of souls. Others find more "acceptable" outlets of creative ability such as
business or sports.
Michelle
In Oregon
Jane Woodside on mon 15 jun 98
In a message dated 6/14/98 7:14:30 AM, you wrote:
<brained activity with obvious overlaps for both. >>
And there are both art and craft elements in many human endeavors so it pays
to develop both sides of the brain (through use!). Notwithstanding, I think
that if the work one produces is or may be art, I think it is important, as a
matter of public education, to describe it as such and not succumb to modest
impulses. Why? Like it or not, most people perceive art as being more valuable
than craft and all too often perceive paintings on canvas as more valuable
than paintings on bowls just for that reason--even though I find it much
easier to paint on a two dimensional surface with WYSIWYG paints than create
an interesting surface on a three dimensional form knowing that I must keep in
my head all of the different factors that will affect what it looks like after
a firing. This weekend I did a "personal appearance" at a gallery show that
presented my work and got to walk around with a name tag that said "artist" on
it. After the show while I was standing outside talking to my husband a
couple came up to us, saw my name tag, and asked me what kind of paintings I
did. IMO, I'll happily embrace the term "ceramist" or "potter" when for
similar effort and achievement these are as well paid as "artists". Jane
Woodside
BRUNNEREC@aol.com on tue 16 jun 98
I think that the biggest thing that bothers the people that are potters in
this argument is that others choose or attempt to exclude the mediums of
craft by some flimsy arbitrary definition of what is or isn't "art". Potters
can cross the line into the lofty realms or "art" as much as people that use
other mediums fail to produce or fall short of producing "art". It isn't the
medium that determins art, it is the work itself. I don't think the average
painter reaches that lofty realm any more often then the average potter does.
Master artists and master craftspeople do it a little more often then the rest
of us.
hal mc whinnie on mon 13 dec 99
yesterday i looked at a ceramics show at a local arts center which had
been curated by a professor from a well known artss school. the work was
in two partss, part one a graoupd of his students from the art school and
group two his student work from the arts center.
the show was terrible.
only his work was interesting the rest very imitative. he saide that he
worked for ideas not objects nor skills.
the ideas expressed by his studnets were very trite, repetative etc.
the skills demonstatred were nil, poor throwing, terrible hand building,
and little done with the glaze.
i would like necca to address this concern which i think is critical to
the development of the ceramic arts as we enter a new age.
hal mc whinnie
clennell on tue 14 dec 99
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>yesterday i looked at a ceramics show at a local arts center which had
>been curated by a professor from a well known artss school. the work was
>in two partss, part one a graoupd of his students from the art school and
>group two his student work from the arts center.
>the show was terrible.
>only his work was interesting the rest very imitative. he saide that he
>worked for ideas not objects nor skills.
> the ideas expressed by his studnets were very trite, repetative etc.
>the skills demonstatred were nil, poor throwing, terrible hand building,
>and little done with the glaze.
>
>i would like necca to address this concern which i think is critical to
>the development of the ceramic arts as we enter a new age.
>hal mc whinnie
Hal: The age old question that has kept CM in business for so many years.
I like the answer of Canuck potter ex patriat Yankee red headed Italian
Wayne Cardinalli. Craft you piss in and art you piss on.
Everyone needs a pot to piss in. Keeps me in business.
cheers,
Tony
Tony and Sheila Clennell
Sour Cherry Pottery
4545 King St.
Beamsville, On. L0R 1B1
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com
e-mail:clennell@bestnet.org
905-563-9382
fax 905-563-9383
John Jensen on sun 8 sep 02
Mel;
I think you're on the wrong track when you say artist wake up everyday
thinking,"how can I be different." Can't speak for all artists, of course,
but artists of my experience wake up each day continuing a path of
exploration which includes craftsmanship, understanding of their medium,
unraveling of mysteries, opening the heart and all the senses, and more.
Including ongoing spiritual struggle. The artists I know put their life on
the line everyday and are commited to honest growth and and sincere
uncompromising expression of their understanding and insights.
I can't even think of any artist I know who thinks or acts as you have
suggested. Such a person might be a fine and noble soul, and we do need
people to seek out new and different avenues of thought and expression. But
the artists I know find the new and different within the context of honest
and serious work.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Toadhouse.com
BVCuma on tue 10 sep 02
Hi Khaimraj,
Nice to hear from you.
>>I never saw so many discussions on Art versus
Craft. It is sad.<<
I think it is the "vs" that is the problem..
otherwise it is very clear they work in tandem...
can't really have one with out the other.
But of course we are talking "Art" here..
and my 7 yr old does things that blow my mind.
I would not say she is a craftsman...
nor an artist..
but she does produce some good... "stuff"
>>nothing is a chore, nor a deterrent to creativity [ I
hand mull my own paints etc.,clean my own clays.]
The latest title is that I am a - Purist.<<
As you may recall I have a similar disposition...
The interest runs thru and thru..
and I think that the intangables add up
to something very "different" or rather... unique.
If I had to put my finger on it I would say....
it vibrates with an energy.
Btw..
If the job description in the Oxford
serves your purpose... then I guess it will do.
At least for the label mongers.
All the best,
Bruce
vince pitelka on tue 10 sep 02
> But of course we are talking "Art" here..
> and my 7 yr old does things that blow my mind.
> I would not say she is a craftsman...
> nor an artist..
> but she does produce some good... "stuff"
Bruce -
Of course she is an artist, because she is making art. And please please
encourage her to continue being an artist and making art. I know I did not
have to tell you that. You will encourage her.
Best wishes to you and your artist daughter -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@worldnet.att.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
BVCuma on wed 11 sep 02
>>Of course she is an artist, because she is making art. And please please
encourage her to continue being an artist and making art. I know I did not
have to tell you that. You will encourage her.
Best wishes to you and your artist daughter -
____________
Vince..
Your right,
There is nothing in the world I would like more than to
see her become an artist, a dancer, musician..
or a gardener..anything I guess.
I have my ideas..and she has hers..
The other day watching the SS channel as she calls it..
Super Stupid Fashion channel.
(I watch it for the anatomical study it provides.. ; )
I asked her..she got a barbie camping gear set that day..
You want to be a model or a camper when you grow up?..
she looked at me like I was an idiot..
A CAMPER!!
Your right though my baby girl is an ARTIST..
no doubt about that....
she makes me into a better person!
To all the children in the world...
god bless
Bruce
ps The studio is always open to her..
she and two friends were up yesterday.
She taught them how to make Gunpati"s
as it is the festival happening now.
Basically an elephant...
Of course there is a great myth behind it....
wealth , prosperity, protection.. guidance etc.
are some of the qualities bestowed upon the devotee.
This India is very rich...like that.
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