Tim Stowell on wed 10 jun 98
I am so sick of whining artists telling me that I've swallowed this or
that, telling me that their work is ART and they know because they're
artists. They sound more like critics to me. It seems that some artists
and craftspeople think that the only way to buoy their own works' value
is denigrate others, usually by throwing massive amounts of artspeak
around. I once met a painter who was producing beautiful work selling for
massive prices and represented in two prominent galleries (east coast,
west coast). She was purchasing a piece of ours and we got to talking.
She showed me some of her work , it was fantastic, it was art. Abstracts
and portrait work. Oils and acrylics. She told me that she learned how to
paint by taking "granny classes." Tole painting classes designed for
ladies making wooden what-nots. 4 years of Art School....An MFA from a
prestigious college....and she had to take "granny classes" to really
learn how to use paint and all of the different brushes available to
her...I find it amazing that so many colleges insist that their
perspective students have a portfolio and that their acceptance is based
on their work, yet, the professors that they hire to teach these students
are chosen for the number of degrees they have, published articles and
books, etc. How about looking at their work...or the fact that they have
been making their living by creating their art for many years?
If you have enough money and hang out at any art college long enough
you'll get an MFA. You can be producing crap and they'll give you the
degree if you can put the right spin on it. No wonder the art education
system is so inbred. I know I'm painting the Arts education system with a
broad brush, and I know many fine professors. It's the same way in
business education, that's why the MBA degree is a joke, an MFA is
becoming almost as laughable.
Overheard at an opening:
"It must be ART nobody would buy it."
"It must be ART it has a five digit price tag."
"It must be ART the person who made it is a Professor."
By for now...just starting another argument.
Tim
Tim Stowell Gerard Stowell Pottery
290 River Street
tstwll@juno.com Troy, NY 12180
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Lorca Beebe on thu 11 jun 98
Tim:
I think that art professor get hired because they can get along with the rest
of the cadre and not make waves in the system....
Lorca
Kathy Bone on thu 11 jun 98
In a message dated 6/10/98 8:46:02 AM Central Daylight Time, tstwll@juno.com
writes:
<<
Overheard at an opening:
"It must be ART nobody would buy it."
"It must be ART it has a five digit price tag."
"It must be ART the person who made it is a Professor." >>
I am rolling around laughing.... so true! so true! Just remember this fellow
workers in clay- I have discovered that when I goof something up- like
catching the lip of a bowl in my finger and screwing it up entirely, all of a
sudden, the piece becomes "art". An interesting glaze and voila ! you have a
one-of-a-kind piece!
I was surfing the net one night and ran across someone's web page with this
guys' clay art.- He had a twist in one piece that I had duplicated the very
day before- by not keeping the clay wet enough and it nearly twisted off. Ha!
the next time, I thought, I'll leave it and call it 'art'. Same with a
magazine article featuring a clay artist- showing a piece of his that was
truly fantastic- but the glaze had (I don't know the correct term for it) kind
of split and showed the stoneware beneath. It was a wonderful effect, but was
it really planned???
I, in my humble opinion, think that art sometimes happens on its own, in spite
of all our best efforts. We have to realize that it's art before we scrape it
off the bat is all.
I just love this listserv- it's my first time posting, so be gentle....
kathyb.
Vince Pitelka on thu 11 jun 98
>Overheard at an opening:
> "It must be ART nobody would buy it."
> "It must be ART it has a five digit price tag."
> "It must be ART the person who made it is a Professor."
Tim -
I don't doubt that all three of these have been heard among casual
conversation at art openings, but certainly not among people who know a damn
thing about art. The folks who originated these comments are simply
betraying their complete cluelessness about art and art issues, which is a
shame since these issues really are not complex or deep at all.
It is perhaps an unfortunate truth in todays art world that the mere fact
that someone creates something and pronounces it to be art means that you
cannot categorically deny that it is art. But that is not the issue. The
real issue is "IS IT GOOD ART???" Of course that becomes pretty subjective,
but no one should hesitate to establish their own parameters of what THEY
believe to be art. Hopefully this decision will be informed by some
open-minded observation and experience.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Marc Brackley on fri 12 jun 98
Overread on a computer monitor:
=22It must be CLAYART, who would pay for it?=22
=22It must be CLAYART, there's five messages of opinionated, sweeping
generalization bitching on it.=22
=22It must be CLAYART, it was made by a professor.=22
I never did get your point Tim. BTW you left out lawyers and dentists when =
you
were slamming. How about turning this around and trying it on for size:
Good news,bad news. The good news is that a bus load of potters went off a
cliff and fell to their deaths. The bad news is that there were 2 empty =
seats.
Its not really that much fun from that angle is it?
Marc Brackley, MFA, potter, public administrator and yes... artist, who may =
not
always know art when he sees it, but can always spot a lousy CLAYART =
message.
Erin Hayes on fri 12 jun 98
Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Of course that becomes pretty subjective,
> but no one should hesitate to establish their own parameters of what THEY
> believe to be art.
And hopefully, in turn, to realize that their parameters are just that -
their parameters. And having informed parameters is even better.
Erin.
Phyllis E. Tilton on fri 12 jun 98
KathyB: A number of years ago I had a plate split and dropped it in the
trash. The next day the issue of CM arrived with a picture of a cracked plate
by one of the very well known men. We fished my plate out and it hangs on the
wall in my studio and provides a lot of laughs-without the 3 or 4 figures that
the 'artist' received. I'll never know if his was a mistake or that if I had
tried to sell mine-would it have been considered art?
In the eyes of the beholder??
Phyllis
Ron Roy on fri 12 jun 98
Isn't that why only MFA's are hired?
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I think that art professor get hired because they can get along with the rest
>of the cadre and not make waves in the system....
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough, Ontario
Canada M1G 3N8
Tel: 416-439-2621
Fax: 416-438-7849
Web page: http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
Bert A Stevens on fri 12 jun 98
I think what does make it art is when it IS done on purpose and
consistently.......that technical knowledge is usefull for more than
galzes that fit, or don't run..
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Kathy Bone wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> In a message dated 6/10/98 8:46:02 AM Central Daylight Time, tstwll@juno.com
> writes:
>
> <<
> Overheard at an opening:
> "It must be ART nobody would buy it."
> "It must be ART it has a five digit price tag."
> "It must be ART the person who made it is a Professor." >>
>
> I am rolling around laughing.... so true! so true! Just remember this fellow
> workers in clay- I have discovered that when I goof something up- like
> catching the lip of a bowl in my finger and screwing it up entirely, all of a
> sudden, the piece becomes "art". An interesting glaze and voila ! you have a
> one-of-a-kind piece!
>
> I was surfing the net one night and ran across someone's web page with this
> guys' clay art.- He had a twist in one piece that I had duplicated the very
> day before- by not keeping the clay wet enough and it nearly twisted off. Ha!
> the next time, I thought, I'll leave it and call it 'art'. Same with a
> magazine article featuring a clay artist- showing a piece of his that was
> truly fantastic- but the glaze had (I don't know the correct term for it) kind
> of split and showed the stoneware beneath. It was a wonderful effect, but was
> it really planned???
>
> I, in my humble opinion, think that art sometimes happens on its own, in spite
> of all our best efforts. We have to realize that it's art before we scrape it
> off the bat is all.
>
> I just love this listserv- it's my first time posting, so be gentle....
> kathyb.
>
Tim Stowell on sun 14 jun 98
Marc,
I guess CLAYART messages are in the eye of the beholder as well. I liked
the Clayart joke...gave me a chuckle. The bus joke...just doesn't work
with potters, it's better with lawyers. I've "slammed" them before,
they're too easy. Shakespeare's Oliver Cromwell said it best when
"slamming" lawyers, "First we kill the lawyers, they spread
divisiveness."
What do you have against dentists I happen to like mine. I kind of feel
sorry for them, they have the highest suicide rate of any profession.
The people my comments were directed to were pretentious snobs who think
that because they possess an MFA they are artists, that an MFA
mysteriously qualifies them to judge and be judgmental about others'
work, while a non-MFAs opinion is considered by them at worst to be
trash, at best inconsequential. That only those people who possess an MFA
can teach someone how to be an Artist. I think the only thing an MFA
definitively seems to qualify someone for is to teach other people how to
get an MFA.
I do not believe that an MFA is required to be an artist, nor is an MFA
required to knowledgeably judge someone's work. Look at Sister Wendy.
Good Art shouldn't and doesn't need to be supported or explained by
Artspeak BS. Art Sennet, pottery professor at Potsdam State, would say
to students,"First show me you can throw it perfectly, than you can make
art." He took absolutely no BS from his students. He was the type of
professor that I will always look for and respect.
By the way, at this point in my career I do not consider myself to be an
artist, I am still working on being a craftsperson. I do however consider
my partner to be one of the most talented artists I have ever met. I also
consider many of the people that I have met in this business over the
years to be fantastic artists. Many of them have shared tremendous
amounts of information over the years and could teach their skills in any
college classroom, but, sadly the arts education world would rather have
MFAs.
I know there are many tremendous professors, MFAs and MFA candidates out
there that do not fit into the gross generalizations I have been making.
I have also had this discussion with some of those same people and they
are usually the ones telling me horror stories and bemoaning the
shortcomings of the system. Marc I would even bet that you could tell me
a few about some of your classmates, professors and colleagues. Teaching
on the college level is much more political than it should be.
I hope this message helps to clarify the point I was trying to
make...sorry it's so long.
Tim
PS - Some of my best friends have MFAs and a few are even professors.
Tim Stowell Gerard Stowell Pottery
290 River Street
tstwll@juno.com Troy, NY 12180
www.trytroy.org/gerard/
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:29:10 EDT Marc Brackley
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>Overread on a computer monitor:
>
>=22It must be CLAYART, who would pay for it?=22
>=22It must be CLAYART, there's five messages of opinionated, sweeping
>generalization bitching on it.=22
>=22It must be CLAYART, it was made by a professor.=22
>
>I never did get your point Tim. BTW you left out lawyers and dentists
>when =
>you
>were slamming. How about turning this around and trying it on for
>size:
>
>Good news,bad news. The good news is that a bus load of potters went
>off a
>cliff and fell to their deaths. The bad news is that there were 2
>empty =
>seats.
>
>Its not really that much fun from that angle is it?
>
>Marc Brackley, MFA, potter, public administrator and yes... artist,
>who may =
>not
>always know art when he sees it, but can always spot a lousy CLAYART =
>message.
>
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Fabienne on sun 14 jun 98
------------------
At 01:51 PM 6/12/98 EDT, you wrote:
=3E----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3EI think what does make it art is when it IS done on purpose and
=3Econsistently.......that technical knowledge is usefull for more than
=3Egalzes that fit, or don't run..
=3E
=3Csnip=3E
Hello everyone :)
I must disagree with the fact that art has to be born on purpose at all
times. If everything always went as planned, we would not stumble over new
horizons as often as we do. I believe pottery may have never come about
was it not for someone throwing their small baskets in the fire ... :)
A wonderful technique can be born from a mistake and enable us to create a
new look, a new art trend. Of course, this implies that one would be able
to duplicate it, shape it and/or incorporate it with existing techniques.
My =240.02 from the really windy city :)
=A4=BA=B0=60=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0=60=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=
=B0=60=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0=60=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0=60
Fabienne =7C Yes, I have learned from my
http://www.vivelafrance.org =7C mistakes...
=7C I can reproduce them exactly.
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