Donn Buchfinck on fri 16 oct 98
Years ago I went to visit Louisiana State university to see If I would want to
apply there to go to grad school.
Bobby Silverman is great, they have a lot of good things to offer, and kilns
and clay, they wood fire right in the center of the city, I guess that is
because the petro chemical companies are producing so much bad stuff that
anything that might be produced by a wood or soda or salt is minimal by
comparison, but I digress
there I met with an artist named Kate Black lock, and in her office was these
forms based on the classic feminine shape.
I personally believe that all good form comes from looking and drawing and
appreciating naked bodies.
so I was sitting there and I was looking at these forms and near the base of
the pieces there were these butterflies glazed in this copper red glaze, I
felt the sybolism to be quite overdone. In our conversations I felt this
teacher was threatened by the schools I had been to, and did not like the fact
that I was a man.
I feel that Univerities breed this attitude, that college has a different
set of rules concering feminism. And that some of the attitudes professed in
schools do not match up in what I call the real world.
What I am against is the gorilla warfare practices they undertake in school.
There is a place for this in the world, I just find it unpleasant and I would
say that there are other people out there who do also. And at times can create
more problems than it solves.
In school I found that some women would mine the feminst cause for there
ceramic work, sometimes crude, sometimes raw, sometimes it would work, but
most of the time I feel it was done for effect. For that dramatic punch. In
hiring of new instructors out in the college arena, the feminist based artist
have a good shtic. It is far easier to explain that the work they are doing
is about something concreat, historic male oppression of the feminist class.
Than it is to explain that they are trying to get at something that you
cannot put words to, like beauty or the sublime, or the harmony of life.
I feel that the colleges out in the USA are out of touch, and this goes for
the men also. If you leave grad school or undergrad making something that is
archaic and offensive, you will collect yourself. There is an unsaid non
truth in school of if you make it they will pay money. For college professors
that little money thing is beneath them, they call themselves studio artist
but are subsidized by there part time well paying teaching jobs. And do not
begin to tell me that what you do is underpaid, high school art teachers are
underpaid and overworked. They are real teachers.
What my real complaint is, Is not that women do feminist art, but do not begin
to expect me to accept it, and I would be able to accept it, if most of it was
done better. And this is the real danger about art in the late 90's, that it
is more about the written statement than it is about a well executed piece of
at that communicates it message without the written statement.
A time is comming when a grass roots art movement will pass by the
universities, because the universities are out of touch, history always
repeates itself.
well I cannot wait to get the messages back on this one
thanks a lot
Donn " I just stuck my neck out there again" Buchfinck
hey for all you spelling nuts out there I ran the spell check on this one.
Kelley Webb Randel on sat 17 oct 98
Well, Don, did you feel the need to stir the pot, or what?
I understand what you are saying about the academic setting,
but as an "angst filled feminist artist" (Karsten's description, not
mine!) you know I have to take offense.
Well done art is well done no matter the emotional issues and
angst driving the subject matter. Every artist has their own
agenda and need for expression, whether it is "sold" or not.
In an academic setting, maybe there is a little more freedom
in the subject matter because they do not have to cater to the
public and sell. Don't make it bad art.
You seem to be very angry about something involved here, and
I can't seem to put my finger on it...
Enlighten me.
Kelley Webb Randel
Rakugddss@aol.com
Darrell Gargus on sat 17 oct 98
donn- i happen to agree with you. a few years ago, the college i went
to, the women got together and decided to have a womens show. the rest
of us asked why? feminist art wasn't really predominate in our school
and not many of us felt discriminated against. they still had the show
with the guidelines of the work having to have some theme of women's
issues being dealt with but most of the work in the show had nothing to
do with oppression of women. i think women do encounter this at times
but no where near as in the past. it is time for women to let this
issue go, i feel like. now it is time for me to get the axe from others
who disagree with me. so now we are in the hot water togther.
becky glasscock
Donn Buchfinck wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Years ago I went to visit Louisiana State university to see If I would want to
> apply there to go to grad school.
>
> Bobby Silverman is great, they have a lot of good things to offer, and kilns
> and clay, they wood fire right in the center of the city, I guess that is
> because the petro chemical companies are producing so much bad stuff that
> anything that might be produced by a wood or soda or salt is minimal by
> comparison, but I digress
>
> there I met with an artist named Kate Black lock, and in her office was these
> forms based on the classic feminine shape.
>
> I personally believe that all good form comes from looking and drawing and
> appreciating naked bodies.
>
> so I was sitting there and I was looking at these forms and near the base of
> the pieces there were these butterflies glazed in this copper red glaze, I
> felt the sybolism to be quite overdone. In our conversations I felt this
> teacher was threatened by the schools I had been to, and did not like the fact
> that I was a man.
>
> I feel that Univerities breed this attitude, that college has a different
> set of rules concering feminism. And that some of the attitudes professed in
> schools do not match up in what I call the real world.
> What I am against is the gorilla warfare practices they undertake in school.
> There is a place for this in the world, I just find it unpleasant and I would
> say that there are other people out there who do also. And at times can create
> more problems than it solves.
>
> In school I found that some women would mine the feminst cause for there
> ceramic work, sometimes crude, sometimes raw, sometimes it would work, but
> most of the time I feel it was done for effect. For that dramatic punch. In
> hiring of new instructors out in the college arena, the feminist based artist
> have a good shtic. It is far easier to explain that the work they are doing
> is about something concreat, historic male oppression of the feminist class.
> Than it is to explain that they are trying to get at something that you
> cannot put words to, like beauty or the sublime, or the harmony of life.
>
> I feel that the colleges out in the USA are out of touch, and this goes for
> the men also. If you leave grad school or undergrad making something that is
> archaic and offensive, you will collect yourself. There is an unsaid non
> truth in school of if you make it they will pay money. For college professors
> that little money thing is beneath them, they call themselves studio artist
> but are subsidized by there part time well paying teaching jobs. And do not
> begin to tell me that what you do is underpaid, high school art teachers are
> underpaid and overworked. They are real teachers.
>
> What my real complaint is, Is not that women do feminist art, but do not begin
> to expect me to accept it, and I would be able to accept it, if most of it was
> done better. And this is the real danger about art in the late 90's, that it
> is more about the written statement than it is about a well executed piece of
> at that communicates it message without the written statement.
>
> A time is comming when a grass roots art movement will pass by the
> universities, because the universities are out of touch, history always
> repeates itself.
>
> well I cannot wait to get the messages back on this one
>
> thanks a lot
>
> Donn " I just stuck my neck out there again" Buchfinck
>
> hey for all you spelling nuts out there I ran the spell check on this one.
Donn Buchfinck on sun 18 oct 98
hi Earl
just thought I would lt you know about how this is going down for me
first, I can't spell, I don't care about it, it/ spelling caused me too great
of stress durring my time in school.
I type fast and I think in fragmented sentences, these are e-mails, God
forbid if they come up and haunt me later.
I make stuff, with clay, and I am now moving on to bronze and cast iron, plus
I still love to throw pots.
about the women who feel they are second class citezens, they are buying into
it, using it as a crutch. and this is what I am tired of.
some of our best potters are women
Ruth Duckworth
Toshiko Tekeezu??
Andrea Gill
Sandy Simon
Gail Kendall
Linda Christonson
Clary Illian
Lanna Wilson
Linda Arbuckle
Liz Qwackenbush
Betsy Rossenmiller
Karen Karnes
Betty Woodman
Rosy Wynkoop
and a whole lot more that I am doing a disservice to by not remembering thier
names.
I will not defend what I said
but the comment is about archaic feminist sculpture/art
I am a white guy, and I am personaly waiting for the good ole boy network to
get in contact with me and send me my membership card, so I can start
oppressing those undisirables. those people who are unworthy. If you think
this happens to only women and minorities, do not worry, white guys get
screwed over by the establishment all the time.
What I meant by my comment about school is that some art departments create an
inviroment that is unhealthy, that creates inequity, and fosters a hostile
enviroment that can become hard to learn and be creative in. and that for
some artists the feminist cause is easy to buy into, a man cannot begin to
join into the conversation, because there are truths to the problems the sexes
face and have faced in the past, since man and woman have walked upright. man
oppresses man, male or female, that is the historic fact
look all I'm getting tired of all this, I think you did't even get what my
intent was. Look for a good school or teacher to learn from, make sure they
take YOUR individuality into consideration, and the path you want to take.
if you want to make art that has feminist themes, be my guest. I DO NOT CARE
I find people complaining about my grammer and spelling tiring, and they use
it to skirt the orriginal comment that was made, which was about good learning
enviroments for a new potter.
I am sorry if there are people out there making pots that feel as if they are
second class citezens, just remember we are makers of things, we bring
something into the world, something that hopefully moves people and makes
living this life we have with all the ugly that is created in the world
better.
making pottery/art is like tending my roses and flowers, it is a lot of work,
but the beauty and pleasure that they bring is well worth the effort
Donn Buchfinck
Louis on sun 18 oct 98
As a student at Montana State I sat in my office with my door open as a group of
studnets organized a student show across the hall from me. I overheard (my fault
should have closed the door) a conversation that ran along the following
lines(paraphrased):
'If we let [unamed male student] enter the show he will win the prize', turn int
'Lets have a womens art show'. At first this was to be a show of work about wome
issues. After discovering that [unamed male student] was going to enter anyways
they made it a "Female only art show"
This had me furious as I digested it. It was so counter productive and vindictiv
I painted a little oil on panel image of a prospectis that said(I hope I can
remember it verbatim)," Women's Art Show", Non- Discriminatory, Women Only, Equa
Opportunity, Nonsexist and signed my name at the bottom. I put it up in a promin
place where every art student was sure to see it.
The sign created a real furor. The show organizers, (despite my signature) thoug
that THE UNAMED MALE STUDENT painted the picture and forged my name. The net res
of this was that about 2/3 of the women in the department refused to speak to me
Over the years I have contiued to be vocal about the issue. Most recently this c
out in a faculty meeting where the womens studies wanted a course designation WG
standing for Women and Gender Studies. I pointed out that this left no place for
Mens studies in thier curriculum. They were unable to even discuss the merits of
WMG(women Men and Gender). Needless to say some faculty members have been cold e
since.
SO, I feel that the real need is to discuss a broader issue. It used to be that
Feminists would include in thier speeches phrases like, "if we want to change th
role of women in society we have to change the role of men". This concept and th
philosophical framework behind it is missing today. She may be CEO but he is a
Male Nurse. What notions do we harbor about male airline flight attendants,
kindergarten teachers, hairdressers, primary care givers, and house husbands? Ho
are men treated if they are "soft", bad at sports or even, pardon I say it,
effeminate?
Yes, I too have an ax to grind. I do not resent affirmative action in places whe
real discrimination contiues to take place if it seems that the affirmative acti
will do more good than harm. I have however been told by Womens Private schools
interviewing at CAA ,"we aren't looking for men". I was told that although an ar
department where 3 of seven faculty members were women and 3 of the 4 most recen
hires were women, that they were looking for a woman. A school I have worked at
where more than seventy percent of the work accepted into its student art show i
by women sees the need for a Womens Art Show.
More Ax
If you want a long schpeil on what it is like to grow up as a male disinterested
and no good at group sports just ask. It might have been easier or at least mor
pleasant to be born a women.
I discourage my students from particpating in the local womens art shows. They
easily can enter and be admitted to other more prestigious shows in town. The
jurors don't know the sex of the maker of the work. Most of the people who get w
into the local shows are women. Prizes seem more evenly split by sex, although t
I have not tried as hard to follow.
I tire of this issue, for me it makes my stomach burn with old rancidity. I don'
like womens art shows because the need is not there. Womens art shows and magazi
articles do no good. Any of those Wood Fire Women could get an article published
CM if they just wrote it. Better to carry a flag "I am A Great Artist" than the
flag " I am a Great Women Artist".
Enough Late, more CLAYART to at least glance over.
Respectfully,
Louis Katz
lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
By the way my students prefer glazes with a mixture of cobalt and chrome to glaz
with either pigment by themselves
Donn Buchfinck on mon 19 oct 98
Ok to begin with the original message was about somethig else in the world.
looking for a good teacher
I have stated in quite a few posts that I have problems with the University
based arts education format, that it leaves important facts out, like you have
to actually make something that is good, or that a person has to have some
talent, it is not up to me to make these calls, but I feel that schools are
saying to just about anyone out there who either FITS into thier program or
who has the GREEN to pay for it, you can make whatever you want and write a
good statement describing it and you will be succesfull. and the crack about
feminist art was made to make this point, albeit badly, but that was the
point.
I believe that colleges and schools are a business. They need to have warm
bodies to keep thier budgets. that a new form of art has come into being that
supports this type of program, the post modern written statement poorly
executed school of art stuff. if the schools realy got tough with the
students and only kept the ones who truly had talent to survive the
curriculum, the student bodies of these programs would shrink drastically. I
thank God do not have to make the judgement of who will stay and who will go
because ART is not like college football. but it is dealt with that way.
Someone who is a piss poor student might just be the next great thing, or the
overnight success when they are in their 50's, art to me is a life. it is a
way to see and live and record life. But the programs are not telling
students that ART is a life journey.
teachers are out of touch, I keep saying it over and over, school IS a
wonderfull place, it is a place where we can grow and learn, tear down those
unbased preconcieved notions about how the world is, how relationships should
be, who to sleep with, the hypocrycy of the good ole boy network, God, and on
and on and on. Anger is a big part of school, but I find that when teachers
create an enviroment that fosters anger and animosity they do a disscervice by
raising one group up above another. As teachers of young adults I feel it is
the teachers duty to help the student learn to understand that the world is
what they make of it, that pottery is a metaphore for life. Vision,
peristance and patience are what makes a succesfull pot plus as successfull
life.
Donn Buchfinck
Marcia Selsor on mon 19 oct 98
Dear Donn,
I work with an even more disgusting bias which continues to this day. I have
taught in an art dept. where clay is still seen as unworthy (at Montana State
Billings)! What a ridiculous and unhealthy environment for students. (as you
said below). But our sculpture teacher is now slumping glass. So this is now
an art form even if it is a dish.
This irritates me more than sexism.
Marcia in Montana
Donn Buchfinck wrote:
>
> snip>
> What I meant by my comment about school is that some art departments create an
> inviroment that is unhealthy, that creates inequity, and fosters a hostile
> enviroment that can become hard to learn and be creative in. and that for
>\snip
Vince Pitelka on tue 20 oct 98
>I have stated in quite a few posts that I have problems with the University
>based arts education format, that it leaves important facts out, like you have
>to actually make something that is good, or that a person has to have some
>talent,
>teachers are out of touch, I keep saying it over and over,
>Anger is a big part of school, but I find that when teachers
>create an enviroment that fosters anger and animosity they do a disscervice by
>raising one group up above another. As teachers of young adults I feel it is
>the teachers duty to help the student learn to understand that the world is
>what they make of it, that pottery is a metaphore for life.
Donn -
It is really a shame that graduate school was such a bad experience for you,
and that it left you with such bitter feelings towards university
professors. It is especially sad that you seem to apply your distorted
stereotypes to ALL university professors. Most of the educators I know in
academia are very committed to the noble goals of fine arts education, and
above all they want their students to develop broad technical skills and a
very strong personal direction in their work which will allow them to pursue
their individual objectives after graduate school. Teachers who are as
incompetent as you describe are out there, but they are in the EXTREME
minority. You do a great disservice by bashing higher education in such a
broadly generalized and profoundly inaccurate manner.
Also, I might point out that no matter how good the faculty and facility
are, the student will not be able to make the most of the experience unless
they take the steps to become truly autonomous and proactive, in essence
taking responsibility for their own future at the START of graduate school,
rather than waiting until they graduate and hoping all the pieces will fit
into place. If you want to complain about education in this country, you
might address the fact that American K-12 education teaches our kids passive
learning. It trains them to follow external orders in order to gain
external approval, without ever teaching self-motivation, internal approval,
and a real love of learning. No wonder all these students have such a
difficult time in college. Every college student at the undergraduate and
graduate level is entitled to the very best educational experience possible,
but they also carry an equal share of the responsibility to insure that this
is the case. In otherwords, they need to find the best college and the best
teachers for them, but then they need to pursue their goals proactively,
agressively excercising their rights as a student.
If any of you out there are considering undergraduate or graduate school,
please feel free to email me on or off the list, and I will do my best to
give you candid and realistic assessments of what higher education can and
cannot do for you. For most of us, undergraduate and graduate school change
our lives for the better in ways which would be all but impossible
otherwise. As you can probably tell, I had a really wonderful graduate
school experience. I know that not everyone is so lucky, but even if one is
faced with flawed faculty or a shoddy facility, graduate school need NEVER
be a wast of time. When that does occur, it is usually the fault of the
individual student.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Karen R. Betts on tue 27 oct 98
To all of you out there who have had "bad" experiences with professors...in
graduate or undergraduate situations. I would like to ask all of them a
question or two. 1) Did you learn ANYTHING from that/those classes? 2) Did
you learn ANYTHING from that/those professors? (I mean ANYTHING, absolutely
anything at all!)
If you learned even the tiniest bit of useful information, or were forced to
look at absolutely anything in a new or creative way, then any and all pain
or aggravation was WORTH IT!
I have had some professors who seemed to just despise me, and then I have
had some professors, who I just basically disagreed with their aesthetic
sense. I have also had some professors who just had really open-ended
projects with no technical assistance at all. And I have had the
opposite...lots of tech assistance and literally no freedom to express
myself. YET, I have learned a great from some of these professors, and at
least a little something from a few of them. Now, I am only a senior, and I
am relatively new to ceramics (2.5 yrs), but I feel that the "system", as
the person who complained about the educational system called it, has good
and bad points, and that a person's previous life experience, general
attitude, and most especially, a person's sense of humor (or lack thereof)
can make or break the experience. We all have choices as to how we react to
experiences. We can take things with a "grain of salt," or we can let
EVERYTHING get to us. I have recently learned the lesson of "taking
responsibility for my own feelings" in regard to certain situations. This
has equalized other things as well.
I am sorry for your bad experience, but I believe that you could look back
objectively and find a few things that were helpful in some small way. Think
about it!
Sincerely,
Karen Betts
University of Florida
Ceramics Senior
P.S. I would love to discuss this with whomever via private e-mail, and
perhaps another opinion of the precise situation would help to lighten your
mental load.
eden@sover.net on wed 4 nov 98
I am generally encouraged by the tone of this debate. I personally was
blown away in the '70s when around Berkeley all of a sudden if you were a
"feminist" and wanted to be an artist....zappa-ka-bam.....you were an
artist! Surely I wasn't the only female with extensive art training and
professional experience who felt a bit disgusted by it all.
I do think the experiences we had in school are central in forming
attitudes and for myself I have often thought I would have been far happier
in a situation with ceramics teachers less famous and more interested in
teaching. I got icons and preachers, not much in the way of teachers.
But there are always valid issues to divide us. There always will be.
Recognizing the differences, respecting differences, that's not being
diminished by them. Today is election day. Somebody polled me and asked
if I intended to vote...told him I wouldn't miss it for the world. Hope
every one of you is gonna go do it.
Eleanora.....praying for campaign finance reform.....
....................
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net
"Can love, through the exercise of art, overcome death?" ---SalmanRushdie
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