Richard Gralnik on wed 16 dec 98
I have to disagree with you about this Linda.
Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it doesn't
have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. They are in a sense
stealing the convenience of providing a place to go and view the book
from your local bookstore. The store and the physical availability of the
book for you to browse are not a public good. They are a very real cost
to the local bookstore owner who can't inventory every book in the
Library of Congress or get you a copy as fast as the megastore (real
or virtual) who is his competitor.
Would you want someone to come into your showroom, look at your pots,
find the one they like then go order it for 20% less from a mailorder
catalog? (Ignore the uniqueness factor for a moment) Same difference.
If you want the local bookstore to stay in business give them the
business. Otherwise, like Home Depot and the endangered neighborhood
hardware store, the only choice you'll have will be the big chain.
And thus are monopolies born.
Richard
At 10:49 AM 12/15/98 EST, Linda Blossom wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>My next comment was to the person who leafed through all the books in the
>>bookstore and then went home and ordered a copy on-line...and not even from
>>the Potters Shop. If we don't support local bookstores large and small we
>>won't have anywhere to go to browse through books. And if we don't support
>>independent speciality book stores they will be swallowed up too.
>>
>One note about this. Amazon does something else, besides offering a
>discount, being more likely to have the book I want, and having fast
>priority mail delivery. If I order a book through a local bookstore, I have
>to buy it. Because the local store did not carry it, I don't get to look at
>it first. Amazon will take returns so if the book is not what I thought it
>would be, I am not stuck. If I want to browse books that is one thing. If
>I want a particular book that is different. Checking every local bookstore
>and then driving to town versus going online and having the book in a few
>minutes is a consideration. I do have to think of my own time.
>
>Linda Blossom
>Ithaca , NY
>
>...
>
>
Tim Lynch on thu 17 dec 98
Well, here's another thought on the local versus universal bookstore. I
checked a book out from our local community college library, Pottery:
Form and Expression, by Margaurite Wildenhain. I had to have this book!
So, I figured Amazon would have it or know where to get it and it would
be cheaper. I sent in my order and waited and waited...and waited.
Finally got an answer saying "sorry," no can do. Not in print, can't get
it. So I thought what the heck, I'll check my Seattle Pottery Supply
catalog. It was listed. I called. They had several copies and it was
$2 cheaper than amazon! I ordered it. It came. I'm happy. Amazon
sucks.
Tim Lynch
Tim Lynch
The Clay Man
1117 Tedford St SE
East Wenatchee, WA 98802-5254
509-884-8303
clayman@internet.wsd.wednet.edu
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/1613
Clayman on thu 17 dec 98
Do you own a bookstore or own stock in one? It is America, you can shop whereve
you want. Customer service will out-shine any low low prices. The key is
customer service, service, service. By the way, how do you order your clay? Di
you have coffee with it before buying it.
Richard Gralnik wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have to disagree with you about this Linda.
>
> Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it doesn't
> have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. They are in a sense
> stealing the convenience of providing a place to go and view the book
Jay S. Gertz on fri 18 dec 98
Clayman wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Do you own a bookstore or own stock in one? It is America, you can shop where
> you want. Customer service will out-shine any low low prices. The key is
> customer service, service, service. By the way, how do you order your clay?
> you have coffee with it before buying it.
>
> Richard Gralnik wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > I have to disagree with you about this Linda.
> >
> > Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it doesn't
> > have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. They are in a sense
> > stealing the convenience of providing a place to go and view the book
As a bibliophile, I have to put my two cents in at this point. Those of us tha
love books cherish the act of frequenting our local bookstores. How can one "kn
the book before buying it, unless at some point we have dipped into the text and
looked longingly at the photographs? I have worked in a library for 23 years, I
still love to go to the local used bookstore, Downtown Books and New, to check o
new arrivals.
Our local clay distributor, Highwater Clays, is run by a couple of wonderful peo
whom I have known for years. Why would I even bother to purchase my materials
elsewhere? I perhaps could save money by shopping around, but I feel where I sp
my money reflects my personal philosophy.
We can, therefore, spend a little more by patronizing our local shops and dealer
Or we can help rend the fabric of our communities by shopping at mega-malls,
Wal-Marts, and Amazon.com. Yeah, yeah, now I'll get flamed for jumping to such
black and white demarcation. But it's an absolute fact that we Americans have
effectively destroyed downtown business districts, from coast to coast, by allo
malls and suburban sprawl to continue unhindered. Downtown Asheville has over t
past five or so years begun to be a vibrant, happening place after decades of be
dead after five o'clock
I'll get off my soapbox before I start ranting, but I will continue to "vote" wi
my money.
Jay
Linda Blossom on fri 18 dec 98
"Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it
doesn't
have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. "
This statement is not correct. Amazon does have a physical space and
inventory as well as quite a few employees. There was a news spot on the
nightly news a short time ago and I saw the warehouse with all of the the
books in that clip.
Linda Blossom
Paul Monaghan on fri 18 dec 98
AMAZON SUCKS ???
What a shameful response based on one PERCEIVED bad experience. Ever
sold a second rate piece of pottery or unable to produce what a customer
wanted. Wouild you have enjoyed a similar response?? Lighten up and
enjoy.
Paul
Tim Lynch wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> Well, here's another thought on the local versus universal bookstore.
> I
> checked a book out from our local community college library, Pottery:
> Form and Expression, by Margaurite Wildenhain. I had to have this
> book!
> So, I figured Amazon would have it or know where to get it and it
> would
> be cheaper. I sent in my order and waited and waited...and waited.
> Finally got an answer saying "sorry," no can do. Not in print, can't
> get
> it. So I thought what the heck, I'll check my Seattle Pottery Supply
> catalog. It was listed. I called. They had several copies and it
> was
> $2 cheaper than amazon! I ordered it. It came. I'm happy. Amazon
> sucks.
>
> Tim Lynch
>
> Tim Lynch
> The Clay Man
> 1117 Tedford St SE
> East Wenatchee, WA 98802-5254
> 509-884-8303
> clayman@internet.wsd.wednet.edu
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/1613
jack on fri 18 dec 98
Allow me to add my cents worth. Have you ever picked up a book read it and
said gee this throwing book is just to simple... not for me... and then you put
it back on the shelf?
Try this with Amazon, the return postage for handling the book will make
you think about the true nature of the virtual bookstore. In addition the
abstracts available at amazon are well...
virtual as well(worthless), and as long as I'm trashing Amazon add the price of
shipping and handling to the total cost of the book and revalue the discount.
And if the government would ever get its act togeather to local tax these guys
it would give even more meaning to the discount that Amazon offers.
But hey it's a great stock it went up 50 some points in the last couple
days!! somebodies making real money(wish I'd held and I could have made even
more).
So as this paradigm shifts perhaps our critique of it will help us all to
realize that materality is only a mouse click away and yet more than a mouse
clicks when we open a book and smell that lovely smell.
happy holidaze jack kirkpatrick
Richard Gralnik wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have to disagree with you about this Linda.
>
> Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it doesn't
> have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. They are in a sense
> stealing the convenience of providing a place to go and view the book
> from your local bookstore. The store and the physical availability of the
> book for you to browse are not a public good. They are a very real cost
> to the local bookstore owner who can't inventory every book in the
> Library of Congress or get you a copy as fast as the megastore (real
> or virtual) who is his competitor.
>
> Would you want someone to come into your showroom, look at your pots,
> find the one they like then go order it for 20% less from a mailorder
> catalog? (Ignore the uniqueness factor for a moment) Same difference.
>
> If you want the local bookstore to stay in business give them the
> business. Otherwise, like Home Depot and the endangered neighborhood
> hardware store, the only choice you'll have will be the big chain.
>
> And thus are monopolies born.
>
> Richard
>
> At 10:49 AM 12/15/98 EST, Linda Blossom wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >>My next comment was to the person who leafed through all the books in the
> >>bookstore and then went home and ordered a copy on-line...and not even from
> >>the Potters Shop. If we don't support local bookstores large and small we
> >>won't have anywhere to go to browse through books. And if we don't support
> >>independent speciality book stores they will be swallowed up too.
> >>
> >One note about this. Amazon does something else, besides offering a
> >discount, being more likely to have the book I want, and having fast
> >priority mail delivery. If I order a book through a local bookstore, I have
> >to buy it. Because the local store did not carry it, I don't get to look at
> >it first. Amazon will take returns so if the book is not what I thought it
> >would be, I am not stuck. If I want to browse books that is one thing. If
> >I want a particular book that is different. Checking every local bookstore
> >and then driving to town versus going online and having the book in a few
> >minutes is a consideration. I do have to think of my own time.
> >
> >Linda Blossom
> >Ithaca , NY
> >
> >...
> >
> >
Tim Stowell on fri 18 dec 98
We are the ultimate small businesses. If we will not support
other small businesses to the best of our ability, how can we
expect anyone else to support us.
Wake up people.
The economy is like a collander. Money is water going into the collander.
There are basically only two ways to get water into that collander.
One is to create it - by taking raw materials, combining them thereby
adding value
and creating money (intellectual property fits in this category) within
the collander.
The second is to import it - this happens when someone invests in a
company that
creates money...or comes from outside and purchases something that was
created
in that collander. Tourists move a lot of money this way.
There are many more ways to puncture holes in the collander.
Every time someone from within the collander purchases something was made
outside the collander a hole is opened up. If the seller is based within
the collander
the hole is small - it's get larger the further outside the collander the
seller is based
or the more the seller takes out.
A craft show comes to town. The potter made is goods outside of town - in
the city.
He pays the show fee to the local non-profit sponsor - water in.
He eats in the towns best restaurant - water in.
He stays at the towns nicest B&B - water in.
He buys the towns cheapest gas - water in.
He pays the town for his traffic ticket - water in.
He has a new starter put in his van by the towns smartest mechanic -
water in.
He sells every pot he brought with him - WATER OUT.
The object of the game is to get the most water in your collander. In
your family's
In your town's collander. In your state's collander. In your country's
collander.
This model scales wonderfully - and it demonstrate that she/he with the
fewest
holes in their collander wins.
It also shows that what we all need is a bowl.
Tim
-Don't poke more holes in a bowl than you have to.
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Joanne Van Bezooyen on sat 19 dec 98
Jay....you wrote:
...."...but I feel where I spend my money reflects my personal philosophy." I
your statement accurately reflects the controversies of this discussion. We are
group of people who have differing personal philosophies....therefore we will ma
different choices. America is a wonderful place to live where we are free to do
Joanne
Jay S. Gertz wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> Clayman wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > Do you own a bookstore or own stock in one? It is America, you can shop whe
> > you want. Customer service will out-shine any low low prices. The key is
> > customer service, service, service. By the way, how do you order your clay?
> > you have coffee with it before buying it.
> >
> > Richard Gralnik wrote:
> >
> > > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > > I have to disagree with you about this Linda.
> > >
> > > Amazon can offer the books it does and the prices it does because it doesn
> > > have the *cost*of a physical store and inventory. They are in a sense
> > > stealing the convenience of providing a place to go and view the book
>
> As a bibliophile, I have to put my two cents in at this point. Those of us t
> love books cherish the act of frequenting our local bookstores. How can one "
> the book before buying it, unless at some point we have dipped into the text a
> looked longingly at the photographs? I have worked in a library for 23 years,
> still love to go to the local used bookstore, Downtown Books and New, to check
> new arrivals.
>
> Our local clay distributor, Highwater Clays, is run by a couple of wonderful p
> whom I have known for years. Why would I even bother to purchase my materials
> elsewhere? I perhaps could save money by shopping around, but I feel where I
> my money reflects my personal philosophy.
>
> We can, therefore, spend a little more by patronizing our local shops and deal
> Or we can help rend the fabric of our communities by shopping at mega-malls,
> Wal-Marts, and Amazon.com. Yeah, yeah, now I'll get flamed for jumping to suc
> black and white demarcation. But it's an absolute fact that we Americans have
> effectively destroyed downtown business districts, from coast to coast, by al
> malls and suburban sprawl to continue unhindered. Downtown Asheville has over
> past five or so years begun to be a vibrant, happening place after decades of
> dead after five o'clock
>
> I'll get off my soapbox before I start ranting, but I will continue to "vote"
> my money.
>
> Jay
Tom Wirt on sat 19 dec 98
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Stowell
Subject: Re: Corporations, Bookstores
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>>>We are the ultimate small businesses. If we will not support
other small businesses to the best of our ability, how can we
expect anyone else to support us.
Wake up people.
The economy is like a colander. Money is water going into the colander.
There are basically only two ways to get water into that colander.
One is to create it - by taking raw materials, combining them thereby
adding value
and creating money (intellectual property fits in this category) within
the colander.
The second is to import it - this happens when someone invests in a
company that
creates money...or comes from outside and purchases something that was
created
in that colander. Tourists move a lot of money this way.
There are many more ways to puncture holes in the colander.
Every time someone from within the colander purchases something was made
outside the colander a hole is opened up. If the seller is based within
the colander
the hole is small - it's get larger the further outside the colander the
seller is based
or the more the seller takes out.
A craft show comes to town. The potter made is goods outside of town - in
the city.
He pays the show fee to the local non-profit sponsor - water in.
He eats in the towns best restaurant - water in.
He stays at the towns nicest B&B - water in.
He buys the towns cheapest gas - water in.
He pays the town for his traffic ticket - water in.
He has a new starter put in his van by the towns smartest mechanic -
water in.
He sells every pot he brought with him - WATER OUT.
The object of the game is to get the most water in your colander. In
your family's
In your town's colander. In your state's colander. In your country's
colander.
This model scales wonderfully - and it demonstrate that she/he with the
fewest
holes in their colander wins.
It also shows that what we all need is a bowl.
Tim
-Don't poke more holes in a bowl than you have to.<<<<<
Tim, I'm repeating your post here because there seem to be many who only read
occasionally. I've followed this with interest also.....typically the reason
for saying purchase was made from other than a local supply is..."I saved a few
bucks" or "it was very convenient".
What are those few bucks worth when you suddenly need local support? How much
did you have to go out of your way to get to the local store.
The only time I can justify going away from the local source is when they are
intentionally screwing you. Like our local pet shop, when suddenly there
started to be a run on aquarium pumps for use as pottery fountains, and they
jacked they price more than 50% (from $12.95 to 21.95. In that case they are
trying to take advantage of the local supporter and deserve to be shunned. THEY
have forgotten that "we're all in this together".
Even so, before leaving, we
should take time to SAY something to them about why we're leaving and how we
feel. It's the only way to help plug one of the holes in the colander.
Tom Wirt
Clay Coyote Pottery
17614 240th St.
Hutchinson, MN 55350
320-587-2599
claypot@hutchtel.net
David Hendley on sun 20 dec 98
Here's my 2 cents I sent in 2 days ago that never made it to the list.
I'll try again.
Tim's collander analogy is a good one.
Try to support the people who support you by being your customer!
This is especially important in smaller towns. I always figure, the
more money I spend in my town rather than going to the mall or
super-store 40 miles away, or ordering by computer or mail, the
more there is available to come back to me.
One of my favorite songwriters, David Wilcox, makes the
point most artistically and succinctly.
East Asheville Hardware
by David Wilcox
An angel appeared
in a holy vision
Stood by my bedside
in shivering light
Spoke my name
Told me my mission
I could not believe I was hearing him right
Because he said, 'Go, my son, go...
Always go to East Asheville Hardware
Before you go to Lowe's
He said, "Go to East Asheville Hardware
Before you go to Lowe's
You'll help to keep them open
I'm worried they might close
From the stiff competition
From the national conglomerate
With the full page ad
in the color section of the Sunday paper supplement
and stacks of plastic swimming pools
and seven brands of power tools
and rows and rows of registers
all having nice days
But no, you go, he said to me with light around his face
He said, You go first to that age-old place
To that old wooden door
that you have to close behind you
To the wide-board wooden floor
worn down soft
To the real thing
Good advice, quality at a fair price
And know that they know how deep the frost goes here.
Sure there's stuff you'll have to find at Paty's, Lowe's or Sears
But go to East Asheville Hardware
Go to East Asheville Hardware
Before it disappears.
Best wishes everyone,
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
At 09:02 AM 12/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>We are the ultimate small businesses. If we will not support
>other small businesses to the best of our ability, how can we
>expect anyone else to support us.
>
>Wake up people.
>
>The economy is like a collander. Money is water going into the collander.
>There are basically only two ways to get water into that collander.
>One is to create it - by taking raw materials, combining them thereby
>adding value
>and creating money (intellectual property fits in this category) within
>the collander.
>The second is to import it - this happens when someone invests in a
>company that
>creates money...or comes from outside and purchases something that was
>created
>in that collander. Tourists move a lot of money this way.
>
>There are many more ways to puncture holes in the collander.
>Every time someone from within the collander purchases something was made
>
>outside the collander a hole is opened up. If the seller is based within
>the collander
>the hole is small - it's get larger the further outside the collander the
>seller is based
>or the more the seller takes out.
>
>A craft show comes to town. The potter made is goods outside of town - in
>the city.
>He pays the show fee to the local non-profit sponsor - water in.
>He eats in the towns best restaurant - water in.
>He stays at the towns nicest B&B - water in.
>He buys the towns cheapest gas - water in.
>He pays the town for his traffic ticket - water in.
>He has a new starter put in his van by the towns smartest mechanic -
>water in.
>He sells every pot he brought with him - WATER OUT.
>
>The object of the game is to get the most water in your collander. In
>your family's
>In your town's collander. In your state's collander. In your country's
>collander.
>This model scales wonderfully - and it demonstrate that she/he with the
>fewest
>holes in their collander wins.
>It also shows that what we all need is a bowl.
>
"Terry Sullivan/Nottingham Center for the Arts. San Marcos," on tue 22 dec 98
This "shop local" thing makes the most sense when you live in small rural
towns and even holds up with specialized products and services.
But, here's the dilema; most of us live less than 15 miles from a Home Depot,
Sears or a Barns and Noble. Heck; I live in north San Diego Co. ( that's 35
miles from SD and 120 miles from Los Angeles). There are still lots of farms
and "good ol boys" arround and there are three Home Depots, two Home Bases,
two Barns and Noble, two Pennys, one Sears etc, etc, etc.....all within 15
miles of my home and the art center.
So if I shop at them am I not shopping "local" ?? They do have the best
selection, the best prices and usually the best advice.
There is a Home Depot just being completed one block from our art center.
There is also a local owned and run Ace hardware and lumber yard a block away.
Although we shop at Ace when small stuff is needed; they simply can't come
close to matching prices on bulk lumber or tools and often don't have what we
need ( read usless trip).
Still we worried about the new Home Depot putting them out of business.
Gosh; we drink with some of the owners and employees of Ace at the local
brewry.
(now there's putting your money where your mouth is !!)
But then I thought it over and realized that Ace employs about 15-20 people
and Home Depot employs over 100 and must hire a minimum of 25 % from the town.
Obviously the rest will also be more or less local as well. They pay well,
train well, activly encourage women and minorities to work all aspects, and
have a good benifit program.
There are a lot more women working the floor at HD then most small "local"
lumber yard/hardware stores. I don't mean cashiers either.
Hmmmm.......
I get fantastic personal service at these "big" places and the available
knowledge of product and process usually , not always, beats the little
places.
I find that there are usually contractor level employees who will often spend
lots of time walking me through a project and the correct materials. Even to
calling and directing me to other "competitor" suppliers. Now that's service.
Terry Sullivan
Nottingham Center for the Arts
San Marcos, CA
Our children will get teary eyed and nostalgic when their favorite web site
goes out of business replaced by something we can hardly imagine.
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