Joy Holdread on sun 29 nov 98
Attention folks who leave works on consignment,
Arizona has good consignment laws that define art work left on consignment as
"TRUST Property" of the artist & proceeds from sales of art works is also
trust property of the artist until the artist is paid in full. I encounter
craft shops & galleries that have contracts that attempt to avoid
responsibility & AZ consignment articles address that issue and voids parts
of contracts that are not in agreement with state laws. However I talk
with artists/craftspeople/hobbiest who are so pitifully grateful that anyone
will "show" their works that they are willing to agree to any terms. I think
of these people as scabs crossing the picket lines of artists demanding a fair
deal. Every time one of us allows ourselves to be cheated we set a president
for others to cheated. Know your rights & follow through.
I've survived small claims court, won & collected what was due me + civil
award,
Filed another claim & the craft shop "found" the missing inventory & returned
it to me rather than go to court.
Yes I've been ripped off, galleries out of town closing & disappearing, a very
small breakage less than $20. that I didn't chase down. I've restored small
damages without charge for good craft shops. In general I find I'm given the
respect I demand.
When we are victimized we loose energy. Allowing small rip-offs can lead into
a downward spiral of poor business habits. More important than the money I
was due, is the empowerment.
The following are resources for artists.
Visual Artists Information Hotline 1 800-232-2789
Volunteer Lawyers for the arts 1 E. 53rd St. NY NY 10022 (212) 319-2787
Joy in rainy Tucson
Ray Carlton on tue 1 dec 98
I concurr with the previous post by Joy Holdread....I also consider Clay
Artists crossing the consignment picket line as being scabs....I am afraid
i take a very hard line on this isssue and refuse to deal with any gallery
that wants my work on consignment...how many other areas in manufacturing
are there where the retailer wants product on a sale before payment basis??
I will tell you...NONE!...and the reason why [rant, rant, rave, rave,] is
that it is bad business practise to put your product out there [pots are
products despite what the precious ones say] for some shifty gallery owner
to run away with. the only way pieces leave this studio are as a sale or as
a gift...Consignment is not in my sales vocabulary...
cheers Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
Jim Bozeman on tue 1 dec 98
Joy, I encountered all of the problems you mentioned; that's why I never
do consignment anymore. If people want my ceramic work they have to buy
it! Jim in sunny Athens, GA
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
eden@sover.net on wed 2 dec 98
Joy's pep talk reminds me of a particularly sweet victory. I went for a
consignment place that turned out not to be so great and in reconciling
their inventory and mine I noticed two or three serving bowls gone.
Somehow it was pretty clear they were in his dining room.
So I brought my husband along with me when I went to get my pots, to give
me extra fortitude, and all my paperwork, and when we got there some
salesclerk declined to take any part in inventorying out the work that was
there, it wasn't in her job description. So we just kinda set up on a
floor space and started collecting and listing and we harassed her so that
she finally signed a slip that said she didn't have those pots to give back
to us and had no record of them being sold.
I started writing letters asking for my money, creating the old paper
trail, and after awhile he coughed it up since he could see I had a case
against him I would win.
If we hadn't made thorough pests of ourselves I would never have seen the
money for those pots. I remember feeling completely demoralized leaving
that store that day. But I felt like I'd struck a blow for the hardworking
potter when I got that check.
Eleanora
...............
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net
"If I had words to make a day for you
I'd sing you a morning golden and new
I would make this day last for all time
and send you a night filled with moonshine"
-----Arthur Hoggett, in "BABE"
DEVON SIMPSON on wed 2 dec 98
Joy:
Nobody should be a victim - that includes artists and gallery owners. The
artist and gallery owner should discuss very carefully the terms in all
contracts and come to a complete understanding prior to establishing a
business agreement. Exploitation in not acceptable in any industry.
Devon Simpson
Fifth Element Gallery and Studio
Portland, OR
Joy Holdread on wed 2 dec 98
In a message dated 12/1/98 12:06:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
rcarlton@hotkey.net.au writes:
> concur with the previous post by Joy Holdread....I also consider Clay
> Artists crossing the consignment picket line as being scabs....I am afraid
> i take a very hard line on this issue and refuse to deal with any gallery
> that wants my work on consignment...how many other areas in manufacturing
> are there where the retailer wants product on a sale before payment basis??
> I will tell you...NONE!...and the reason why [rant, rant, rave, rave,] is
> that it is bad business practice to put your product out there [pots are
> products despite what the precious ones say] for some shifty gallery owner
> to run away with. the only way pieces leave this studio are as a sale or as
> a gift...Consignment is not in my sales vocabulary...
>
>
>
> cheers Ray Carlton
>
> McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
>
>
>
I wish I could make it on sales rather than consignment. I've found craft
shops limit themselves to the "Safe" less expensive works without
consignment. Even when I offer to trade out once a year. Mostly I've made
good relationships & some friendships with consignment arrangements but have
gone to battle a few times too.
Joy
Joy
Dale A. Neese on wed 2 dec 98
I've almost decided, by seeing the replies on the issue of consignment, that
I'll make the first step in the new year to remove my pots from the
galleries and shops that now have them. I have tried to find the good in
having them in the galleries, but everytime, I leave with a bad feeling.
Yes, sometimes galleries have closed on me without a even a phone call.
Weeks of trying to track down my ware. Then, in the months that I know that
I have made decent sales, no check. "Oh, well we have had some problems with
our book-keeper".... yeah, same old story. Or," we can use some more pots,
can you run some down this afternoon?" No problem, I'm just sitting here
waiting for you to call! Out of town galleries say," just ship them on
over" without even offering to pay for packing or shipping. Then have the
nerve to take up to 50%. When I really think about it, there is only one
shop that has been very consistant and timely. He maybe the only shop I'll
deal with. Then he only takes 30%.
Keeping up with inventories on different shops has got me going crazy. When
I do all the manufacturing myself full time, I don't need more headaches.
How about some wholesale talk. How many of you do your own studio retail
sales? Co-Ops? I've done shows for years, and will continue. I like
talking to the buyers and the other really creative clay people out there.
Happy Trails,
Dale Tex
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Carlton
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Galleries and now from my soap box...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I concurr with the previous post by Joy Holdread....I also consider Clay
Artists crossing the consignment picket line as being scabs....I am afraid
i take a very hard line on this isssue and refuse to deal with any gallery
that wants my work on consignment...how many other areas in manufacturing
are there where the retailer wants product on a sale before payment basis??
I will tell you...NONE!...and the reason why [rant, rant, rave, rave,] is
that it is bad business practise to put your product out there [pots are
products despite what the precious ones say] for some shifty gallery owner
to run away with. the only way pieces leave this studio are as a sale or as
a gift...Consignment is not in my sales vocabulary...
cheers Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
Karen Shapiro on wed 2 dec 98
Hello Ray,
Sorry you think of "consigners" as scabs. As a ceramic sculptor, I have no
option but to consign. I have only one gallery which buys outright and that
is VERY rare. Wish I didn't have to consign, but if I didn't, I couldn't pay
the rent (it's hard enough as it is!!).
Karen in Sonoma
Craig Martell on wed 2 dec 98
Ray Says:----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
I concurr with the previous post by Joy Holdread....I also consider Clay
Artists crossing the consignment picket line as being scabs....I am afraid
i take a very hard line on this isssue and refuse to deal with any gallery
that wants my work on consignment...
Hi:
No kidding, this is really a hard line stance! :>)
I'll just say that it depends on who you are dealing with. One of my best
galleries is a consignment relationship. They sell more work for me than
anyone, They are honest and their shop and staff are really top notch. In
fact, they received an award as the No 1 craft gallery in the US. OK, the
deal is that I could have them buy my work but I don't want to. When I
consign to them, it's my choice what I send and I don't have to fill orders.
I hate having to do assignments, kinda like school. It's my choice to deal
with them on consignment and it works well for both of us and I get an extra
5% profit over wholesale. I LOVE this gallery because I've never had any
problems with them in the 15 years I've sold work there and they treat all
the artists REALLY well.
cheers Ray, Craig Martell in Oregon
Don Jones on thu 3 dec 98
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hello Ray,
>
>Sorry you think of "consigners" as scabs. As a ceramic sculptor, I have no
>option but to consign. I have only one gallery which buys outright and that
>is VERY rare. Wish I didn't have to consign, but if I didn't, I couldn't pay
>the rent (it's hard enough as it is!!).
>
>Karen in Sonoma
Karen,
I have to agree with you here. Sculptors are in the same league as
painters. Few galleries buy paintings and sculpture wholesale as the price
would be prohibitive. The market is just too iffy and totally different
than the traditional crafts market.
I consign my strange and expensive work to galleries willing to take a
chance with me. I expect nothing but feedback. Sales are just icing.
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
:-) implied in all messages and replies
http://highfiber.com/~claysky
Joy Holdread on thu 3 dec 98
In a message dated 12/2/98 3:46:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
Rakukaren@AOL.COM writes:
> ---------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hello Ray,
>
> Sorry you think of "consignors" as scabs. As a ceramic sculptor, I have no
> option but to consign. I have only one gallery which buys outright and
that
> is VERY rare. Wish I didn't have to consign, but if I didn't, I couldn't
pay
> the rent (it's hard enough as it is!!).
>
> Karen in Sonoma
Dog gone I started this thread to get info about how consignors keep track of
inventory. Stop this "No I'm not" "Yes you are" "No I'm not" "Yes you are"
"No I'm not" "Yes you are" & share info. OK ,OK I did encourage the personal
stance thing by writing from my soap box, but I want info. Just the facts. I
mark off my inventory sheets with the month sold & the check number. I keep
track of the galleries account # in case of legal action. I've found 3
different situations where the gallery rewrote their inventory sheets without
checking with me to see if we agreed. How often do you consignors do an
inventory check? How do you handle it through the mail?
Thanks Joy
Karen Gringhuis on thu 3 dec 98
Man - reading all these horror stories about galleries, I have
two reactions.
1. I'm very glad for my galleries one of which CONSIGNMENT has
an inventory system that tells me exactly which piece sold and
on what sales check i.e. I can see multiple pieces sold to one
person = FEEDBACK. and they pay monthly on the button.
2. When considering an unknown gallery or shop, DON'T LEAVE
HOME WITHOUT CHECKING W/ THE CLAYART NETWORK as to the
reputation of the strangers. (Some of the biggest gallery
names have lousy reputations for paying.)
Karen Gringhuis
Joy Holdread on thu 3 dec 98
In a message dated 12/1/98 12:06:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
rcarlton@hotkey.net.au writes:
> concur with the previous post by Joy Holdread....I also consider Clay
> Artists crossing the consignment picket line as being scabs....I am afraid
> i take a very hard line on this issue and refuse to deal with any gallery
> that wants my work on consignment...how many other areas in manufacturing
> are there where the retailer wants product on a sale before payment basis??
> I will tell you...NONE!...and the reason why [rant, rant, rave, rave,] is
> that it is bad business practice to put your product out there [pots are
> products despite what the precious ones say] for some shifty gallery owner
> to run away with. the only way pieces leave this studio are as a sale or as
> a gift...Consignment is not in my sales vocabulary...
>
>
>
> cheers Ray Carlton
>
> McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
>
>
>
I wish I could make it on sales rather than consignment. I've found craft
shops limit themselves to the "Safe" less expensive works without
consignment. Even when I offer to trade out once a year. Mostly I've made
good relationships & some friendships with consignment arrangements but have
gone to battle a few times too.
Joy
Joy
Marie Gibbons on thu 3 dec 98
I have to leave my 2 cents on this consignment issue . . .
Consignment can be good, and it can be bad. Wholesaling can be good and it
can be bad.
In either case, don't you think that you need to research where you are
putting your work? Shop the space, see the work they carry, what are their
price ponts, observe how they sell to their customers, how much their sales
staff knows. Talk to other artist that have work there. Find out if the
gallery is reliable, pays on time, cares about it's artists and their work.
We can't just hand over work to the first gallery that says sure, I'll take
your work, like they are doing you a big favor!! Whether it is whole sale or
consignment!
Two of my best galleries do consignment with me. I ALWAYS have a check in my
mailbox by the 4 of the month. I ALWAYS hear from the gallery about how my
sales are going, feedback of what they hear from their customers. The can
talk about what I do, how my work is made. One of these galleries also has an
awesome website! And features work by many of the gallery artists, at no cost
to them!
I have had wholesale dealings that took up to 4, 5 months to collect!! I hate
phone calling, checking for my money! So in my opinion, you need to do what
is right for you and your work, and what you feel comfortable with, and you
need to research!
Know who you are dealing with!!!
So much for 2 cents, I think I may have spent at least a dime!!
Marie Gibbons
Arvada, CO
http://members.aol.com/MGibb21521/indexMarieE.v.B.Gibbons.html
John Rodgers on fri 4 dec 98
-- [ From: John Rodgers * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Lisa Skeen got me started to looking into consignment law regarding artists
because of trouble with consignment she had in Atlanta.
In reviewing the Georgia law....which by the way is posted on the internet.
....the key element is a written contract. It is REQUIRED by Georgia law that
there be a WRITTEN contract between Artist/Craftsman and the Consignee -
most specifically Gallery. It was evident that if you don't get a contract
for consigning your work, you are SOL. To fail to get a contract is to
violate the law. It is pretty heavily weighted in favor of the Artist,
provided the contract is in place. The contract law places the Consignee in
the position of holding goods or money in Trust for the Artist until it is
paid.
To hold something in Trust places fiduciary responsibility on the Consignee,
and to violate that Trust is to break not only the consignment law, but
other areas of law as well, and exposes the Gallery Consignee to perilous
legal jeopardy.
I checked also on the consignment law regards artists in my home state of
Alaska. It to is on a Web site. It was pretty weak compared to the Georgia
law. The Alaska law spoke only of Artists, Fine Art(whatever that is), and
Galleries. It appeared to leave out those who might be more readily
identified as craftsmen. But basically it addressed the same issue as the
Georgia law, provided you have a contract, and can demonstrate you are an
Artist producing Fine Art to be consigned and sold in Galleries. The issues
get sticky. Look at the debate continually going on regarding art vs. craft.
Who's to say who is an artist and who is a craftsman? A judge? After the
fact? Lots of issues remain open in this arena.
Of course, no contract is worth anything if a shop folds, the money or goods
disappear, and the owners have nothing for you to go after. If owners have a
reputation to protect or any assets they want to protect, they can be
forced to pay, but if not it will be like spitting into the wind. You can
get a judgement, but at what cost and who will enforce it. It you are
talking about a few pieces of pottery, even artsy stuff with a high value,
as a practical matter you may find yourself better off to eat it and using
the time spent chasing the legal hassel on more production to recover your
loss, rather than trying to recover it through legal means. If however,
there are thousands of dollars involved, its another story.
Another possiblilty may be getting a crimnal charge made against them for
a trust violation.
I ran a production shop in Alaska for years. The number of defaults we had
to deal with was less than one percent of invoiced sales.
For more on this, you might want to look up the Nolo web site.(do a search -
keyword Nolo - it's a good legal site - free) Has much to say about
contracts, and suits, and when it's reasonable to pursue it. Business, and
especially pottery/clayart is a matter of doing what is reasonable and
practical. And balancing income against loss. Collections is one of those
aspects.
One other thing. The retail world always wants to reduce risk, and hold as
much money as possible as long as possible. They do that in many ways. One
is to buy now, pay later....often after the goods are sold. Retailer risk
against sale vs no sale is reduced because you....the producer... are
carrying the expense of the goods until they can reasonably be sold. You
carry the cost of production and distribution of the goods. Your money for
your clay, glazes, electricity, rent, etc, sits on the shelf in some store
while the retailer is trying to sell it if you have sold the goods to them
on trade credit. Ironically, that is the same way consignment works. your
money is tied up while the pot sits in a consignement store waithing to be
sold. It's the time element that is better in wholesale to retail sales
because they are committed to pay in 30/60/90 days generally. Consignment
shops are not. Consignment is just an open ended time frame for sale and
payment. You just have to decide what works for you. Can you afford to have
your money tied up in your work for that long, or do you need to get it out
and turn your money over. In my experience, I vote for the latter. Therefore
I wholesale only to retailers. No consignment. It requires that I structure
my selling prices differently, and perform my work differently, and seek out
a different kind of customer, but that is my best way to do business.
If you are into consignment, you might consider this. Ask for your own space
in a shop. Arrange to have that space filled your products, and have an
agreement with owner to do periodic inventory and keep the space filled.
His obligation is to pay you on the spot for goods sold each time you come
in to do the inventory. Note the items sold since last inventory, present
a bill for those items and collect your money. That way, the store owner
has no money tied up in inventory, has no hassle with tracking inventory,
and gets to hold your money and collect interest on it for himself between
inventory periods. But he ABSOLUTELY must pay you at each inventory period
as agreed. This works if set up properly in the beginning, and functions
fine for smaller shops. But you MUST keep your space filled. And the shop
owner MUST pay you as agreed. If you get the "Oh, I don't ......right now,
can you come back later?" routine, pull your stuff, right then. They have
used your money up to that point, and now must pay you. It's a contract
between you. Stick to it on both sides. This method is also used within some
big organizations as well. Walmart stores in Anchorage are serviced by
vendors who come in and inventory their goods on the shelves, and then
present a bill for what has been sold, and recommends how much replacement
inventory is needed. I also did this for years with JC Penney stores in
Anchorage with my own products.
OK. Now it's someone elses turn on the soapbox.
John Rodgers
In Alabama
Karen Shapiro on sat 5 dec 98
Hi Don,
Glad someone agrees with me! I make a living at this racket (albeit a meager
one), so I can't afford to live on feedback. My work sells at below $1,000 --
have to make "small pieces" at under $100 as well as larger ones to make a go
at it. I find it an everlasting learning experience finding the "right"
galleries for my work. It's a trial and error thing.
What kind of sculpture are you doing? I do "pieces of ordinary life", i.e.
faux food, oversized "things" like makeup, packaged food, etc. -- all of it
raku-fired and on the whimsical side. I'm told by my main gallery (here in
SF) that there is a ceiling on "humorous" pieces, notwithstanding the
Arnesons, Gilhooleys and Shaws! I think people should pay more for a bit of
humor in their life ...
Karen in Sonoma where it's a bit nippy this evening!
Karen Shapiro on sat 5 dec 98
Hi Joy,
I must be somewhat fortunate in that I haven't yet had any trouble keeping
track of inventory. Part of this is because I am a sculptor (not a potter),
so I am not having to keep track of huge amounts of small pieces; the other
part is that I only deal with people who I can trust. The first hint of
bullshit and I refuse to deal with someone. I rarely even see the galleries I
deal with (except my local ones, of course), so I only consign by referral --
to established galleries.
So far so good. Everything is invoiced on my computer program; as work is
paid for it is entered into the program (I keep hard copies of EVERYTHING).
If work is not sold in a reasonable amount of time, I have the galleries send
it back. I have had cooperation in this regard so far. My local galleries
sell the work very well; pieces which don't sell come back to me and I rotate
to another gallery.
If I haven't answered your question, please let me know. It's been a long
day, and I'm into my second vodka!!
Karen
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