furimsky on thu 19 nov 98
Being a fairly young potter I have don't really have a name that is
known, but I have had the chance work with some really great people. One
woman has helped me out a lot in the past. She gave the opportunity to
work in her studio for free and paid me to make plates from molds which
she would decorate. I made plates for her molds and some from my own
molds. One of these large platters that I made from my own mold came out
very successful and she used it for a postcard. The issue is that I was
not given any credit, for example my name put on the card, also. She
said that this was a dilemma for her and hoped that I wa not offended by
her decision. In all honesty, I'm not. She has done a lot for me already
and I am grateful. Also, the form was very simple, not a trade mark
form of my own. But, on the other hand it would be nice to be given some
written credit. I don't know if it is really fair because if my name was
well known I feel I would have been mentioned. Do others out there feel
I am low woman one the totem pole and just need to wait my turn, or was
I not given credit I deserved?
The Unnamed Potter
Donn Buchfinck on sat 21 nov 98
I don't know
if you were making blank forms for the decorator to decorate, then a case can
be made that you have been hired to make canvases.
but if you made the mold, and you made the piece, and you decorated it, and it
is not like hers, then she should not take credit.
this does not sound like it was a formal apprentiship situation, and in this
type of situation learning happens by emmulating certain forms and
techniques. Through repitition an artist learns.
but to take as her own something you did is plagerism
simple as that
who's name is on the piece
Be proud of what you are making, artists working in a new medium can
sometimes bring fresh energy to problems. remember there are three types of
artists out there
rodies
groupies
and rockstars
some rockstars use the other two to push thier work forward, and some have a
vested interest in keeping everyone where they are at.
Chalk it up to experience, understand that it's all fair game, get yourself
into your own studio situation,
and believe in yourself
Donn Buchfinck
San Francisco
Nanci Bishof on sat 21 nov 98
Your missive smacks of taking it public & accusing through implication. Your
motives are very obvious. That reflects on you rather than your "unnamed
mentor." Van Gogh painted a pair of old worn shoes, a very mundane subject
not unlike your platter. What he did with them made the painting a masterwork,
not what they were or the canvas they were on. Sort of like purchasing a blank
and then doing your glaze work.
Dannon Rhudy on sat 21 nov 98
At 05:18 PM 11/19/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
gave the opportunity to
>work in her studio for free and paid me to make plates from molds which
>she would decorate. I made plates for her molds and some from my own
>molds. One of these large platters that I made from my own mold came out
>very successful and she used it for a postcard. The issue is that I was
>not given any credit, for example my name put on the card, also. She
>said that this was a dilemma for her and hoped that I wa not offended by
>her decision. In all honesty, I'm not. She has done a lot for me already
>and I am grateful. Also, the form was very simple, not a trade mark
>form of my own. But, on the other hand it would be nice to be given some
>written credit. I don't know if it is really fair because if my name was
>well known I feel I would have been mentioned. Do others out there feel
>I am low woman one the totem pole and just need to wait my turn, or was
>I not given credit I deserved?
>The Unnamed Potter
You state that you are "not offended by her decision". But your post sounds
very much as though you ARE offended. You can discuss it with her further,
of course. The likelihood is that she'll be irritated, and/or that she
simply will
not use anything from one of your molds again. Or possibly won't use your
HELP again. Since you feel that you are learning from this person, and have
opportunities to do some work of your own, and use the space at no charge -
you'll have to decide whether the trade is worth it. If you are terminally
offended, find another place to work. If you can't/won't do that, then don't
worry about whose mold was used for what piece of decorated ware. Presumably
you will in time produce work wholly of your own making. When that time
comes, and you are satisfied with the work, make your own postcards. It will
work out, and resentments are not productive. Let it go.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
Buck and Laurita on sat 21 nov 98
This topic really strikes a chord so I'll add my bit to the mix. Having
spent most of my work life as a painter (murals a specialty!)and now
easing into tiles, I've certainly done my share of work that I HOPED
would be to my benefit publicity-wise. Some was, some wasn't. My
primary area of looking-for-credit exposure has been doing work for
interior designers in various "Decorators' Showhouses" (just in case you
don't know: big house is fixed up to a fare-thee-well by desgners, one
per room, house is open to the public at a fee, some local charity
benefits; the best known in the DC area is the National Symphony
Decorators' Showhouse). The rule always USED to be - if you're getting
paid you don't get credit. I know of some people who are paid and get
credit as well. No matter what, the issue of credit, tacky as it may
seem, has to be discussed UP FRONT. If you have completed work, one
good way for you to get exposure is to let the designer put it in the
room, put your name in the showhouse program, and put the pieces up for
sale. Your stuff is seen by thousands and may get sold. Not a bad
deal.
Laura Chandler
Carolynn Palmer on sat 21 nov 98
In support of your mentor's decision to not give any credit to you, I must
support her. I have had many apprentices, employees, and other working
arrangements with fledgling potters in my studio for the past 30 years and
after a few first mistakes, I make it very plain that any work they do for me
is mine. They are working under my roof and with my materials and my help and
my tutelage.
I also always make it clear that any work they produce entirely of their own,
in their own free time, on their own, is theirs. (I mean the work they make
for themselves in exchange for what they do for me.) They own it, I own
everything else.
This is an ancient pottery tradition. Many master potters sell work as theirs
that is produced entirely by helpers and apprentices who receive absolutely no
credit. Except if they eventually sell their own work, they having bragging
rights to the prestige of having worked under the master potter.
The current situation with apprentices is further complicated by many shows
and sales venues in the U.S. which state that the work exhibited and for sale
must be only the work of the exhibitor. Some even have clauses that say that
you cannot have employees. So even if she wished to give you credit, she
wouldn't dare to jeopardize her status in these instances.
Furthermore it sounds as though she has been extremely generous to you. I
would advise you not to "bite the hand that feeds you" and don't let your ego
spoil a working relationship that benefits both of you.
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
Karen Gringhuis on sat 21 nov 98
"Large platter that I MADE came from my own mold" - if your hands
molded AND DECORATED - key words here - the platter, then it was
indeed your work and you should have received credit, IMHO.
"Grateful" is one thing, credit-where-credit-is-due is another.
IF, however, you only made the BLANK PLATTER and she did the
decorating, then you have no complaint. Or if all of the work
done this was was to receive collaborative credit, then this
should have been spelled out way in advance. Many good potters
out there make blanks for others to decorate - the resulting
work is often very good and has long historical precedent
(too much Ken Starr last night). I have friends who do this
and receive no public credit and are happy w/ the arrangement.
Regardless of what exactly happened, do NOT NOT NOT
nurse this wound (yes I am a Carolyn Myss fan) or let it
interfere w/ you working arrangement. Nor should you let
any of OUR opinions dampen your serenity or enthusiasm.
Perhaps let us make you think - for the future, but you
are not in this world to live up to our expectations.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! Karen Gringhuis
D. Kim Lindaberry on sun 22 nov 98
furimsky wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> She gave the opportunity to
> work in her studio for free and paid me to make plates from molds which
> she would decorate.
Over the years I have worked as a studio assistant for several different
artists (mostly sculptors). I always felt that, in some small part, a
bit of their sucess due to the energy and creativity I added to their
work. The keywords here being "THEIR WORK." It was always a give and
take relationship with the artists I worked with, but I found that they
always gave me much more than I gave in return. One artist I worked for
had me making stainless steel forms which she would paint. She gave me a
rough sketches of the forms, and I would cut, bend, weld, and grind the
forms. When all my work was done she would bring out the spray gun and
add her touch to the work. I never felt I should recieve public credit
for all my work in the process. Privately she always praised my work.
Her circle of friends and the local artist community knew what I added
to the work. That was enough for me. It was her painting, her touch,
that made the work sucessful, not mine. The work I did for her enhanced
her work, but it was secondary to what the work was about. I was, in
essence, making a canvas for her to paint on. This sounds similar to
what you are adding to the creative process in your situation. Don't
sweat getting public credit for the work you're getting paid for. Your
time will come.
cheers
Kim
--
D. Kim Lindaberry
Longview Community College
500 SW Longview Road
Art Department
Lee's Summit, MO 64108
USA
to visit my web site go to:
http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/humanities/art/kiml/
to send e-mail to me use: mailto:kiml@kcmetro.cc.mo.us
Billy Winer on sun 22 nov 98
In my former life time as a scientist I always felt that it was better to err in
favor of giving credit to young people than not. If one is an established
scientist, potter or whatever, it behooves them to try to promote their students
by making the student's name known. It seems that you have talked to your
teacher about it which is good, but since the past cannot be corrected, get ove
it! Hopefully, next time your name will be mentioned. In my long life
experience I have learned that the best thing in a profession is to have friends
who can help you and it is better to let go of some annoyances than to make a
federal case out of them and loose the friendship. That's my unsolicited
advice! Regards, Biljana in Lexington, KY
Dannon Rhudy wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> At 05:18 PM 11/19/98 EST, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> gave the opportunity to
> >work in her studio for free and paid me to make plates from molds which
> >she would decorate. I made plates for her molds and some from my own
> >molds. One of these large platters that I made from my own mold came out
> >very successful and she used it for a postcard. The issue is that I was
> >not given any credit, for example my name put on the card, also. She
> >said that this was a dilemma for her and hoped that I wa not offended by
> >her decision. In all honesty, I'm not. She has done a lot for me already
> >and I am grateful. Also, the form was very simple, not a trade mark
> >form of my own. But, on the other hand it would be nice to be given some
> >written credit. I don't know if it is really fair because if my name was
> >well known I feel I would have been mentioned. Do others out there feel
> >I am low woman one the totem pole and just need to wait my turn, or was
> >I not given credit I deserved?
> >The Unnamed Potter
>
> You state that you are "not offended by her decision". But your post sounds
> very much as though you ARE offended. You can discuss it with her further,
> of course. The likelihood is that she'll be irritated, and/or that she
> simply will
> not use anything from one of your molds again. Or possibly won't use your
> HELP again. Since you feel that you are learning from this person, and have
> opportunities to do some work of your own, and use the space at no charge -
> you'll have to decide whether the trade is worth it. If you are terminally
> offended, find another place to work. If you can't/won't do that, then don't
> worry about whose mold was used for what piece of decorated ware. Presumably
> you will in time produce work wholly of your own making. When that time
> comes, and you are satisfied with the work, make your own postcards. It will
> work out, and resentments are not productive. Let it go.
>
> Dannon Rhudy
> potter@koyote.com
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