Chuck Nunnelly on tue 12 jan 99
I guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, I
thought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
knowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this weekend and
look forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I plan to
establish a clear base ^6 glaze and then start testing for color. Looking at
a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me a
little daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting what
would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio to
start this process.
Tools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
Any thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good thread to
the archives for others starting this process.
Chuck Nunnelly
Mechanicsville VA
Eric Hansen on wed 13 jan 99
Chuck -
May I suggest narrowing your experiments down by eliminating high cost materials
I am on the same path but I am buying only 50 pound bags, so am starting with th
cheap stuff first. -ERIC
--
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:00:23 Chuck Nunnelly wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, I
>thought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
>knowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this weekend and
>look forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I plan to
>establish a clear base ^6 glaze and then start testing for color. Looking at
>a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me a
>little daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
>Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting what
>would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio to
>start this process.
>
>Tools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
>
>Any thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good thread to
>the archives for others starting this process.
>
>Chuck Nunnelly
>Mechanicsville VA
>
Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
Janet H Walker on thu 14 jan 99
On ClayArt, as in much of life, there are no new questions. And sometimes
there are no new answers either... Here's an old answer to your question
about what you need to buy in order to test and mix your own glazes. As
you can see, the answer is about 2 years old. Interestingly, I wouldn't
change it much even after two more intensive years of experience (in which
of course I have bought every specialty ingredient that I could imagine a
need for!!) (But I didn't really need any of those really.)
So I guess I'll claim that you can't go too far wrong by starting from some
point like this:
======================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:12:58 -0500
From: Janet H Walker
Subject: Q: what chemicals to buy
To: tiggerbus@aol.com
cc: clayart@lsv.uky.edu
I sure hope this isn't just duplicating what others have had to say
in posts I haven't read yet. If so, just skip on by...
Tiggerbus says:
...I am new to this mixing thing. I need information on what
to purchase to mix glazes for an electric kiln...
It takes a surprisingly long time to figure out the answer to this
question when you are going from a standing start! I think I finally
now have everything I will need but it has taken almost two years to
learn enough to know what to buy. And how much to buy. (God knows
what I am going to do with the 10 pounds of bentonite...)
First, you need two or three really good recent books on glaze
formulation so you don't wade around looking at recipes that all
look to same to you or all contain chemicals that you don't want in
your house. There have been plenty of suggestions on ClayArt
recently so look in the archives (lots of folks were giving advice
around Christmas time!!).
Some good ones are Mimi Obstler "Out of the Earth; Into the Fire"
and Robin Hopper's Ceramic Spectrum. Also Currie's Stoneware
Glazes. If you just want some recipes instead, checkout the various
major compendia by E. Cooper, J. Conrad, and J. Chappell. Most
libraries have at least one of these. (If you're buying, call up
the Potters Shop, Needham, MA).
As you read through the recipes you'll get the picture about which
ingredients show up a lot and which ones you might need a lot of.
In order to get started testing though, you have to BUY something.
I am going to attempt to list the things that you will probably end
up with after two years, regardless what you think now!!
Oddly enough, you should probably buy a whole lot of the major basic
ingredients. This is because some of them are quite variable in
composition over time (since they just dig 'em out of the ground and
you get what you get) so if you've gone to a lot of trouble learning
and testing, you want to at least cash in on your work by having the
same ingredients to work with awhile. (Other people may advise you
differently but this is what I've decided!)
This first group, you'll probably want 50 lb each. Since this is a
full bag, it is almost cheaper to get a lot than to get 10 lb.
Except for the shipping, which you'll have to factor in. (I hope
someone can tell me what I should have bought for storing the bulk
ingredients!)
Fluxes:
Potash feldspar (Custer is a standard)
Soda feldspar (Kona F-4 is a standard)
Gerstley borate, although some people recommend a boron frit instead
Whiting (aka limestone or calcium carbonate)
Dolomite (aka dolomitic limestone)
Spodumene (like a feldspar, with lithium carbonate)
The following also provide the fluxes and are somewhat more
expensive but often work better than the things in the first group
that they are used instead of:
Soda frit, like Ferro 3110 or equivalent (instead of spar & whiting)
Boron frit, like Ferro 3124 or 3134 (instead of Gerstley borate)
Talc (instead of dolomite, for magnesium)
Nepheline syenite (a feldspar with nice properties)
Wollastonite (instead of whiting, for calcium)
Specialty fluxes in "pure" form for special purposes (lesser
amounts, like 5 lb)
Magnesium carbonate ("lite", a fluffy powder)
Lithium carbonate
Strontium carbonate
Zinc oxide
Clays (common and highly variable ingredient, get lots)
Kaolin, EPK is a standard
Ball clay, often Tennessee
Bentonite, tiny amounts for conditioning glazes
Red clay, often Cedar Hts Red Art clay
Slip clay, often Alberta slip or an "Albany slip substitute"
Opacifiers (small amounts usually, so maybe 5 lb)
(Listed from most to least common)
Tin oxide ($$$)
Superpax
Bone ash (synthetic not natural)
Titanium dioxide
The glass former, always listed last but not least:
Silica, 300 mesh
Colorants (very small amounts of most, except iron; start with 1-2 lb)
Red iron oxide (Spanish)
Rutile, light ceramic grade (you rarely need milled)
Copper carbonate
Cobalt carbonate
I draw the health & safety line right about there although I will
keep and sometimes use a very little (~ 100g)
Manganese dioxide
Chrome oxide
I do not have any compounds of barium or lead, not even frits. It
just isn't worth it taking the chance.
The only other things I can think of:
Cornwall stone (variable and exasperating material, not essential)
Ash (wood, charcoal etc; variable and exasperating, lots of fun)
Ash (volcanic; ditto)
Eventually you may get "into" stains; others can advise!
I guess that's it. Maybe I've said enough that you're ready to
start looking into commercial mixed glazes! Gosh, I can't believe
I'm going out on a limb like this publicly. I'm sure I've made some
hilarious gaffe here; be gentle guys.
Best wishes to Tiggerbus in following The Glaze Trail.
Jan Walker
Cambridge MA USA
-------
John Post on fri 15 jan 99
Hi Chuck,
Here's what I have in my studio for making cone 6 glazes...
50# bags of all of the following are stored in translucent Rubbermaid
rectangular garbage cans that fit underneath a couple of long tables I use
as work surfaces...
The advantage to buying these items in 50# bags is that the cost is lower.
Some materials like the gerstley borate are quite variable from bag to bag.
So if you have a large amount on hand, at least you know your glazes will
stay consistent until you run out.
The items marked with * I consider to be essentials. If you get these
first you'll be able to test many cone 6 glazes. Get the other ingredients
as you find the need for them. It'll probably cost you a couple hundred
bucks to get started.
*EPK - I use this in all my glazes as the clay.
*Flint - The glass maker.
*OM4 Ball Clay - I use this to make slips.
*Custer Feldspar - A potash feldspar.
*Nepheline Syenite - This is a feldspar like material that fluxes well in
the ^6 range.
*Whiting - also known as calcium carbonate. Many glazes call for this.
*Gerstley Borate - This melter is probably in over 90% of the glazes in the
^6 range.
*Frit 3134 - A boron frit with no alumina. I often recalculate glazes to
use this instead of gerstley borate. I only use ^6 glazes with less than
10% gerstley borate in them. Glazes with more than 10% GB give me too many
problems.
*Wollastonite - Contains calcium and magnesium. Useful flux at ^6.
Calcined Kaolin - Used in glazes that call for more than 25% clay.
Frit 3110 - A high alkaline frit. Good melter at ^6. Useful in Raku glazes.
Spodumene - a lithium feldspar.
Alberta slip - a a fine brown clay material that melts at cone 6 with only
a little flux added.
Here are some other suggestions...
*Zinc Oxide 5-10#
*Talc 5-10#
*Dolomite 5-10#
*Bentonite 5#
*Superpax - an opacifier - 10#
*Red Iron oxide - 10#
*Rutile 1-10#
*Copper Carbonate 1-10#
*Cobalt Carbonate 1-2#
Granular Rutile 1-3#
Granular Ilmenite 1-3#
Granular Manganese 1-3#
Green Chrome Oxide 1-5#
Tin Oxide 1-5#
Strontium Carbonate 5#
Bone Ash 5#
Titanium Dioxide 5#
Figure out what you are going to store all of these chemicals in. Keeping
them in the bags they come in is messy. I like the Rubbermaid garbage cans
for holding the 50# bags. I like see-through plastic containers for all of
the 5-10# items. It's easy to see when you're running low. I also like
containers that the lids screw onto as opposed to snap on lids.
Get a good respirator and learn how to do a fit test. I got nice hepa
respirator at Home Depot. Around $25. Get as many buckets as you can. I
could always use a just a few more 5 gallon buckets with lids.
Get Monona Rossol's Book called Keeping Claywork Safe and Legal from the
Potter's Shop in Needham, Mass. It has lots of info on setting up and
working safely.
Hope this gives you a place to start.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan USA
rp1mrvl@moa.net
>Looking at
>a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me a
>little daunted. EPK, Whiting...Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the
oxides.
>If you were starting what
>would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio to
>start this process.
>Chuck Nunnelly
>Mechanicsville VA
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Sprattling on fri 15 jan 99
------------------
I got my original 5 lb buckets from McDonalds for free. They still smell a
bit like pickles, but I happen to like pickles so it's o.k. DO get a good
mask. I wear mine every time I mix glazes and also, disposable gloves. I
figure if I loose my health, I won't be making many pots and I plan to
follow in Beatrice Woods footsteps as far as age goes. Also a good wedging
table can be made realativly inexpensivly. There is a good book which I
purchased years ago, and may or may not still be in print, called Building
your own kiln Furniture. It is out in my studio, and I will get the
authors name and send to you if you are interested. It's a great resource
for building all kinds of studio equipment at reduced expense. Make sure
your table is the appropriate heighth for your back. I found an old chest
type freezer for free in the local news paper. This makes a good storage
for your large bags of glaze ingredients, and keeps the glaze dust to a
minimum and off the floor. It doesn't need to be in working condition
either. I found an old grinder at a yard sale and am still using it years
later. Gallon size mayonaise jars (plastic) are good for storing smaller
amounts of glazes near your mixing area. These are free at any fast food
restaurant.
Any way, back to your original question, I fire to cone 7,8,=26 9 in my
electric kiln. I mention this because the higher the cone temp. the simplar
the glaze receipes get. 25 or 50 lb bags of your basic ingredients will
cost you only slightly more than buying in 10 lb. bags, and saves you trips
to the supply store. Start with EPK, Talc, Whiting, Silica, Potash
feldspar, and perhaps nepthaline syenate (sp) . This is a feldspar with a
lower melting temp than potash, and may be called for in your =5E6 glazes.
These are all inexpensive ingredients, and essiential. I would even
suggest going ahead and ordering your oxides or carbonates in at least 1 lb
quantities, because you will eventually use them and they won't go bad.
It saves you considerably too. Iron oxide, which is the least expensive of
the lot, you may want in a 5lb quantity. When buying rutile, ask for the
milled, not granular, unless the receipe calls for it. Hope this mesage
isn't too long=21
Good luck, and happy potting
Ren=E9
=3EOn Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:00:23 Chuck Nunnelly wrote:
=3E=3E----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E=3EI guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, =
I
=3E=3Ethought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
=3E=3Eknowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this
=3E=3Eweekend and
=3E=3Elook forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I =
plan to
=3E=3Eestablish a clear base =5E6 glaze and then start testing for color. =
Looking at
=3E=3Ea a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials =
left me a
=3E=3Elittle daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
=3E=3EFeldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting =
what
=3E=3Ewould you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked =
studio to
=3E=3Estart this process.
=3E=3E
=3E=3ETools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
=3E=3E
=3E=3EAny thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good =
thread to
=3E=3Ethe archives for others starting this process.
=3E=3E
=3E=3EChuck Nunnelly
=3E=3EMechanicsville VA
=3E=3E
=3E
=3E
=3EGet your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
=3EGet your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
Muddy
Bill Williams on sat 16 jan 99
CHUCK: I have only been working with pottery for about 3 years, but I do
have a studio in my basement. My husband was an secondary art instructor
for 25 years and did a lot of things on the side, and I had been working in
various form of the ceramic art for many years. At any rate when I decided
to start working on the wheel, I already had 3 kilns (electric) a pug mill,
2 large drying bats, and two potter's wheels. After a couple of years I
moved to stoneware and then I was forced to try to make my own glazes. If
you don't know what glaze formulas you are going to be using, you have no
idea what to buy. I was in the same boat. If you buy your materials for
your glazes in smaller amounts, like 1, 2 & 5 pound bags, you will have
enough to test with, if you mix 100 g batches for your testing. And you
won't be stuck with large amounts of materials that you decide not to use.
The smaller amounts will see you through a lot of experimenting, because it
goes a long way when you are testing. You also have to store the stuff, and
those big bags take up a lot of room. Others may not agree with me but I
had several potters tell me that a good book to have is "The Potter's
Complete Book of Clay and Glazes" by James Chappell. I do have one and I
use it more than any other book I have. Good Luck Connie
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hansen
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Glaze Studio, Where to start
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Chuck -
>May I suggest narrowing your experiments down by eliminating high cost
materials
>I am on the same path but I am buying only 50 pound bags, so am starting
with th
>cheap stuff first. -ERIC
>--
>
>On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:00:23 Chuck Nunnelly wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, I
>>thought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
>>knowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this weekend
and
>>look forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I plan
to
>>establish a clear base ^6 glaze and then start testing for color. Looking
at
>>a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me
a
>>little daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
>>Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting what
>>would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio
to
>>start this process.
>>
>>Tools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
>>
>>Any thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good thread
to
>>the archives for others starting this process.
>>
>>Chuck Nunnelly
>>Mechanicsville VA
>>
>
>
>Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
>Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
>
Chris Schafale on sun 17 jan 99
Chuck -
There were a couple of good lists posted several months ago, which I
assume you found in the archives. From my point of view, having
just done this myself, I would say it depends how much
experimentation you want to do. As you've probably discovered, there
are dozens if not hundreds of glaze recipes out there. If you
truly just want to get started and then play with colors, look at the
digitalfire.com website, where you will find a cone 6 base with an
exhaustive explanation of why each ingredient is there. To make this
glaze, you will need only 5 ingredients: silica, EPK, Frit 3134,
wollastonite, and feldspar (f-4 is suggested). If it works for you,
on your clay, in your kiln, and takes the colors you want, you're in
business. Even if it doesn't work for you, these ingredients are
very basic building blocks for lots of other glazes, so they won't
go to waste. I'd go ahead and buy 50 lbs of silica and EPK at
least (way cheap in 50 lb bags), lesser amounts (10 lbs?) of the
others. On the other hand, if you want to be able to try out every
recipe that comes down the clayart pike, you will want to get at
least a little (5 lbs?) of a bunch of other things. For instance,
you'll probably want a soda spar like F-4 and a potash spar like
Custer, and nepheline syenite, and Gerstley borate, and
spodumene..... For me, 10 lbs of most things was about right, though
I quickly ran out of several things (making 500 gram test batches
-- if you do 100 gram batches, the materials will last a lot
longer, but you'll be more limited in what size and shape of test
piece you can use).
As for colorants, what colors do you want to make?? I assume blue,
since most of us want at least one blue, so get some cobalt carbonate
(1 lb is enough if you're not going to go nuts with testing blue
glazes). Copper carb for greens (1 lb). Red iron oxide for
browns/blacks (maybe even red if you're lucky), and for muting other
colors (5 lbs? -- it's cheap and you use more of it at a time) .
Rutile for creamy tans and for modifying other colors (2 lbs). What
else depends on what colors you want to try for and how much toxicity
you choose to deal with. If you get a chance, look at Robin Hopper's
The Ceramic Spectrum, where he has a whole list of different colors
and what oxides (theoretically) produce those colors.
As for other equipment, I would definitely get a good sieve and a
good respirator. I like having an accurate scale so I can replicate
tests, but I know that others say they can get along fine without --
up to you. Containers for glazes -- I've had great luck going to my
local grocery store bakery and asking for the buckets that icings and
donut glazes come in -- wonderful 3-5 gallon buckets with tight
lids and they're free!
That's my 2 cents worth for tonight -- if I can help more
specifically, let me know.
Chris
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, I
> thought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
> knowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this weekend and
> look forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I plan to
> establish a clear base ^6 glaze and then start testing for color. Looking at
> a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me a
> little daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
> Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting what
> would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio to
> start this process.
>
> Tools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
>
> Any thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good thread to
> the archives for others starting this process.
>
> Chuck Nunnelly
> Mechanicsville VA
>
>
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
Lili Krakowski on tue 19 jan 99
Just back in Clayart and already making trouble. Sorry folks.
Go to the PL and look at some illustrated books on glaze. Hopper, Cooper
and so on. Buy Fraser GLAZES FOR THE CRAFT POTTER which is being reissued
apparently right now this
very minute by American Ceramic Society.This costs $25 plus $5 shipping .
Also you might consider Ceramcis Monthly book(let)s on glaze projects and
glaze. That will bring you close to $50.
Then look carefully at pots and see what you personally like and WOULD
LIKE TO DO. Do you make functional ware? Do you make sculpture? Read
recipes in back issues of the clay magazines and look at the pix. Ah!
This looks neat. What is it? Oh. It is a calcium borate glaze; it is a
high magnesium (dolomite or talc) glaze. Look it has quite a bit of zinc
in it. Now buy a pound or so of several of these types ready-mixed. A
decent dealer won't tell you what is in them but should tell you what
family the glazes belong to. Buy one of each --you now are $75 into the
hole-- and play with them. See what looks good toyou and on your pots. THEN
AND ONLY THEN should you move up to bigger quantities. I agree that $50
bags are great and moeny savers. However that also depends on how firmly
you are located, how much you make., I have over the decades "inherited"
materials from several studios because the 50lbs sacks are so attractive
and
save so much--but take forever to use up except in a production studio.
People have BEGGED me to haul the stuff away when they move or quit. I
now buy 25lbs only of the materials I use a lot (and I have a separate
from
the studio shed to keep them in) and other stuff in 5-10 lbs lots. As to
colorants: start small. If ingredient x appears as 10% in a kilo recipe,
that means in a kilo you use about 3.5 ounces. That --my pocket
calculator tells me means you have to mix 228 pounds (or about 104 kilos)
of the glaze before you use up the 50 lbs.of material.Get the idea?
And last: I gave up on GB a long time ago. Frits are costlier but they
are reliable. Last: got to a good relaibel dealer with a technician
aboard. And, ideally, do your own trucking. Shipping costs are a major
bite out of your budget.
So what am I talking about? DO NOT OVERSPEND AT THIS POINT. START
MINIMALLY. REMEMBER THE GREATEST POTS ON EARTH WERE MADE WITH A BIT OF
ASH AND A BIT OF CLAY OR SAND...OR A BIT OF SODA AND A BIT OF CLAY. The
25 ingredient glaze is a modern--and not necessarily lovely--idea.
Lili Krakowski
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Sprattling on thu 4 feb 99
Chuck,
Having been in your spot over 25 years ago, I can give a few suggestions on
how I started out. After purchasing my first wheel and kiln, I bought a
ready -made base glaze in powdered form, and added oxides to it. I wasn't
very scientific then and used teaspoons to add the oxides to the dry glaze,
which I think I measured in cups. If you have the money, a good grahm scale
is well worth the investment. It will last you forever. You could still
pruchase a ready-made base glaze and then purchase your oxides. Most oxide
additions are added as a percentage above the 100 % that is made up by the
other glaze ingredients, so it would be easy to pick a round number, say
100grams of your base glaze, and experiment by adding additional
percentages of oxides. Otherwise, I would suggest looking over several
base glaze receipes, picking one or two with the simplist and most common
ingredients, and starting with those. U.S. Pigments has good prices on
oxides, especially if you buy in bulk, (1 to 5lbs). They always have an add
in Ceramics monthly.
Rene
Stone Burner Studio
---------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Chuck -
>May I suggest narrowing your experiments down by eliminating high cost
>materials
>I am on the same path but I am buying only 50 pound bags, so am starting
>with th
>cheap stuff first. -ERIC
>--
>
>On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:00:23 Chuck Nunnelly wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I guess this is a pretty broad topic, but after reading the archives, I
>>thought maybe a discussion of this topic would bring some of the list
>>knowledge to the archive. I've received a used electric kiln this
>>weekend and
>>look forward to putting it to use. Now to the topic of my post: I plan to
>>establish a clear base ^6 glaze and then start testing for color. Looking at
>>a a lot of recipes this weekend and thinking of ordering materials left me a
>>little daunted. EPK, Whiting, Talc, Silica, Frit 3134, Woolastonite,
>>Feldspar, the list can go on. Then the oxides. If you were starting what
>>would you order and in what amounts to have a fairly well stocked studio to
>>start this process.
>>
>>Tools: Scales, Containers, Sieve 80 mesh, breathing protection, ?
>>
>>Any thoughts along this line would help me and I think add a good thread to
>>the archives for others starting this process.
>>
>>Chuck Nunnelly
>>Mechanicsville VA
>>
>
>
>Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com
>Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://personal.lycos.com
Muddy
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