Richard Gralnik on fri 21 aug 98
This subject has come up before here on clayart and it always bothered
me that people would do this with a human body. It strikes me as
incredibly morbid. I would not want a pot with such a glaze in my
home. To me human remains belongs in the ground. Ashes to ashes.
Not ashes to ash glaze.
Part of this comes from being Jewish. In our religion the body is still
sacred even after death and not something to be recycled (this does not
preclude organ donation to save another person's life). Part of the
horror of the Holocaust was that people could use human body parts
for lampshades, soap, mattress filler, etc. Today the Nazis would
probably preserve their victims' hearts, blood, livers, kidneys and
corneas for transplant. Dehumanize people into things and you can
treat them this way.
This is a human being. It deserves respect, even in death. I think
the natural revulsion at this sort of thing comes from a recognition
that we are not animals to be eaten or harvested or used for fertilizer or
weighed as a glaze ingredient. This is a person, one of God's children,
not a mineral to be ground up, analyzed for chemical content and mixed
with silica to coat a vase on the mantelpiece.
I'm sorry if this offends those of you who are intrigued by the subject
or even considering it for yourselves, but it bothers me intensely and
gives me shivers to think that a person's remains would be viewed this
way.
Richard
At 10:29 AM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>In a message dated 8/19/98 6:48:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>ashglaze@teleport.com writes:
>
><< --------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Over the years, I have heard many potters say that they would like to have
> their ashes made into a glaze. I have only heard of one instance where this
> was actually carried out and I don't know what the results were so I have no
> advice in that regard.
> >>
>
>I think that I have seen a rough analysis someplace of the chemical make
up of
>the human body once the water is removed, This would give someone a starting
>point to calculate a glaze. To experiment, sometimes animal shelters cremate
>animal remains, chemically they should be very similar. Whoever undertakes
>this project, I wish them well. I have often thought about the possiblity
for
>myself.
>Earl Brunner
>
>
Tara and Michael on sat 22 aug 98
Richard,
I am very sorry that our discussion of Human Ash Glaze has offended your
sensibilities. I have the utmost respect for the Jewish faith/culture, and
a great deal of empathy for anyone whose family was touched by the horror
of the holocost.
I do feel however that INTENT is the key. If a person has explicitly
expressed to be immortalized in this way and his family wishes to honor
him/her and handles the remains with respect and love, it can be a very
positive and healing thing to do. Not de-humanizing in any way. The vessel
created would undoubtedly be ceremonial and not something to serve your
dinner salad in.
Consider an animal that is slaughtered with compassion in a Kosher way,
that is consumed with respect to nuture the family....compare that to an
animal that is slaughtered with malice and violence. Both animals are
dead, but the intent makes two completely different acts. (forgive the
coarsness of this analogy), I know we can't compare humans to animals, but
my point is INTENT.......Another analogy....a child can be repremanded in a
loving way or in an abusive way...same act...different outcome...different
intent.
I do feel that whenever an idea such as this brings up deep feelings it is
best to get it out and talk about it. I don't think I can change your mind
or your feelings on the subject and visa-versa, but I think that talking
can open our minds to other possibilities and lead us toward accepting
other points of view.
Respectly,
Tara kemp for Michael Redwine
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>This subject has come up before here on clayart and it always bothered
>me that people would do this with a human body. It strikes me as
>incredibly morbid. I would not want a pot with such a glaze in my
>home. To me human remains belongs in the ground. Ashes to ashes.
>Not ashes to ash glaze.
>
>Part of this comes from being Jewish. In our religion the body is still
>sacred even after death and not something to be recycled (this does not
>preclude organ donation to save another person's life). Part of the
>horror of the Holocaust was that people could use human body parts
>for lampshades, soap, mattress filler, etc. Today the Nazis would
>probably preserve their victims' hearts, blood, livers, kidneys and
>corneas for transplant. Dehumanize people into things and you can
>treat them this way.
>
>This is a human being. It deserves respect, even in death. I think
>the natural revulsion at this sort of thing comes from a recognition
>that we are not animals to be eaten or harvested or used for fertilizer or
>weighed as a glaze ingredient. This is a person, one of God's children,
>not a mineral to be ground up, analyzed for chemical content and mixed
>with silica to coat a vase on the mantelpiece.
>
>I'm sorry if this offends those of you who are intrigued by the subject
>or even considering it for yourselves, but it bothers me intensely and
>gives me shivers to think that a person's remains would be viewed this
>way.
>
>Richard
>
>At 10:29 AM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>In a message dated 8/19/98 6:48:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>ashglaze@teleport.com writes:
>>
>><< --------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Over the years, I have heard many potters say that they would like to have
>> their ashes made into a glaze. I have only heard of one instance where this
>> was actually carried out and I don't know what the results were so I have no
>> advice in that regard.
>> >>
>>
>>I think that I have seen a rough analysis someplace of the chemical make
>up of
>>the human body once the water is removed, This would give someone a starting
>>point to calculate a glaze. To experiment, sometimes animal shelters cremate
>>animal remains, chemically they should be very similar. Whoever undertakes
>>this project, I wish them well. I have often thought about the possiblity
>for
>>myself.
>>Earl Brunner
>>
>>
Rachelle Marker on sat 22 aug 98
I don't feel that equating someone wanting their ashes added to a glaze to the
horrors of the Holocaust is truly appropriate. What happened to the Jews was
an atrocity in which they had no say. If someone wants to turn themselves
into a glaze, that is a choice. That is the big difference - choice. For
that person it is not dehumanizing, but perhaps a way to be immortalized, or
just be a part of something that he or she truly loves.
Some religions don't bury their dead in the ground and may look at our customs
as odd or even sacriligious. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but
I believe we should all be able to make our own choices, especially when it
comes to what we do with our own bodies.
I respect Richard's opinion, but my motto is if you don't like what someone
else does, you don't have to do it or be a part of it. To each his own.
Rachelle
Cheryl L Litman on sat 22 aug 98
I would love to have my remains made into a glaze and I think my husband
would find it amusing. Personally I find the thought of having my body
buried in the ground in a box morbid and abhorrent. I also don't like
the idea of family feeling that to honor my memory means to visit that
box in the ground. If not a glaze than I'd like to fertilize a plant.
Cheryl Litman
Somerset, NJ
email: cheryllitman@juno.com
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:27:06 EDT Richard Gralnik
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>This subject has come up before here on clayart and it always bothered
>me that people would do this with a human body. It strikes me as
>incredibly morbid. I would not want a pot with such a glaze in my
>home. To me human remains belongs in the ground. Ashes to ashes.
>Not ashes to ash glaze.
>
>Part of this comes from being Jewish. In our religion the body is
>still
>sacred even after death and not something to be recycled (this does
>not
>preclude organ donation to save another person's life). Part of the
>horror of the Holocaust was that people could use human body parts
>for lampshades, soap, mattress filler, etc. Today the Nazis would
>probably preserve their victims' hearts, blood, livers, kidneys and
>corneas for transplant. Dehumanize people into things and you can
>treat them this way.
>
>This is a human being. It deserves respect, even in death. I think
>the natural revulsion at this sort of thing comes from a recognition
>that we are not animals to be eaten or harvested or used for
>fertilizer or
>weighed as a glaze ingredient. This is a person, one of God's
>children,
>not a mineral to be ground up, analyzed for chemical content and mixed
>with silica to coat a vase on the mantelpiece.
>
>I'm sorry if this offends those of you who are intrigued by the
>subject
>or even considering it for yourselves, but it bothers me intensely and
>gives me shivers to think that a person's remains would be viewed this
>way.
>
>Richard
>
>At 10:29 AM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>>In a message dated 8/19/98 6:48:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>ashglaze@teleport.com writes:
>>
>><< --------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>> Over the years, I have heard many potters say that they would like
>to have
>> their ashes made into a glaze. I have only heard of one instance
>where this
>> was actually carried out and I don't know what the results were so I
>have no
>> advice in that regard.
>> >>
>>
>>I think that I have seen a rough analysis someplace of the chemical
>make
>up of
>>the human body once the water is removed, This would give someone a
>starting
>>point to calculate a glaze. To experiment, sometimes animal shelters
>cremate
>>animal remains, chemically they should be very similar. Whoever
>undertakes
>>this project, I wish them well. I have often thought about the
>possiblity
>for
>>myself.
>>Earl Brunner
>>
>>
>
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McDonald on sat 22 aug 98
Dear Richard,
I can understand your point of view, I have had years of discussion on this
point with my husband who was raised in a different religion to myself and
has totally different views. I don't think even after eighteen years of
discussion he has swayed me away from the idea of a burial and he still
wants cremation. If he wants me to make him into an ash glaze I would do it
however as it would be his wish and he has the power to make that decision,
I seem to remember in those religious lectures that God's gift to us was
free will. You just have to learn to tolerate the opinions of others even if
it is not your choice or the choice of others who have your religious
beliefs. And as for the Nazis well they took lack of tolerance, arrogant
superiority and enforcing their views on others to the depths didn't they? I
doubt that they would have saved body parts if they had the technology back
then as they considered those who they killed to be so inferior and
therefore the corneas etc. would be tainting the superior Arian.
But I digress, what I want to say is that potters would see having your ash
made into a glaze as a celebration of the art and craft they have devoted so
much of their life to, they would not see it as treating a human body (their
own) as an object. But rather as the ultimate respect for their body in
joining it in a continuum with their lifes work and love. You have to
remember that pottery has very strong spiritual links with the East.
Regards Sheryl
-Original Message-----
From: Richard Gralnik
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Friday, 21 August 1998 11:30 pm
Subject: human remains as a glaze ingredient
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This subject has come up before here on clayart and it always bothered
me that people would do this with a human body. It strikes me as
incredibly morbid. I would not want a pot with such a glaze in my
home. To me human remains belongs in the ground. Ashes to ashes.
Not ashes to ash glaze.
Part of this comes from being Jewish. In our religion the body is still
sacred even after death and not something to be recycled (this does not
preclude organ donation to save another person's life). Part of the
horror of the Holocaust was that people could use human body parts
for lampshades, soap, mattress filler, etc. Today the Nazis would
probably preserve their victims' hearts, blood, livers, kidneys and
corneas for transplant. Dehumanize people into things and you can
treat them this way.
This is a human being. It deserves respect, even in death. I think
the natural revulsion at this sort of thing comes from a recognition
that we are not animals to be eaten or harvested or used for fertilizer or
weighed as a glaze ingredient. This is a person, one of God's children,
not a mineral to be ground up, analyzed for chemical content and mixed
with silica to coat a vase on the mantelpiece.
I'm sorry if this offends those of you who are intrigued by the subject
or even considering it for yourselves, but it bothers me intensely and
gives me shivers to think that a person's remains would be viewed this
way.
Richard
At 10:29 AM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>In a message dated 8/19/98 6:48:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>ashglaze@teleport.com writes:
>
><< --------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Over the years, I have heard many potters say that they would like to have
> their ashes made into a glaze. I have only heard of one instance where
this
> was actually carried out and I don't know what the results were so I have
no
> advice in that regard.
> >>
>
>I think that I have seen a rough analysis someplace of the chemical make
up of
>the human body once the water is removed, This would give someone a
starting
>point to calculate a glaze. To experiment, sometimes animal shelters
cremate
>animal remains, chemically they should be very similar. Whoever undertakes
>this project, I wish them well. I have often thought about the possiblity
for
>myself.
>Earl Brunner
>
>
Vince Pitelka on sat 22 aug 98
>This is a human being. It deserves respect, even in death. I think
>the natural revulsion at this sort of thing comes from a recognition
>that we are not animals to be eaten or harvested or used for fertilizer or
>weighed as a glaze ingredient. This is a person, one of God's children,
>not a mineral to be ground up, analyzed for chemical content and mixed
>with silica to coat a vase on the mantelpiece.
Whoa, Richard, I think you need to back off a bit here. I respect your
religious beliefs and personal convictions, but in making the above
statement you are implying that those who have discussed using human ashes
in glaze are being disrespectful to the deceased. I know you did not really
mean to imply that, because of course this thread is based on the concept of
making a glazed vessel as a tribute to the deceased - a keepsake for the
living to honor the dead, to remind them of their deceased loved one. I
have made such a vessel in the past as a special commission, and I know what
it meant to the family. It was a very powerful experience for me.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Lori Leary on sun 23 aug 98
I would imagine that MAKING a vessel with a loved one's ashes, using
one's knowledge and skills, would be a powerful way to work through the
grieving process.
Lori L.
Pawleys Island, SC
lleary @sccoast.net
Gavin Stairs on sun 23 aug 98
In numerous Buddhist lands, and no doubt elsewhere as well, human ash is
often made into a little stupa, or votive tower, by mixing with water and
forming, like clay. I don't know whether these are ever fired, but it
wouldn't surprise me if they were, sometimes. At other places they are
probably simply left in the open to disintegrate naturally. Or kept in a
larger stupa.
This practice reminds me of the ancient Greek practice of disinterring the
corpse after enough time has passed for the soft tissues to have
disintegrated, so that only bones are left. The skull is then used as a
wine cup to drink a last farewell to the departed, which ends the period of
ritual mourning.
Among many peoples, including the parsis of India, Tibetans and other
Himalayans, and many native people of North America, the sky burial is
sometimes practiced. This involves to exposure and sometimes dismemberment
of the body for the scavengers of the sky: vultures, eagles and crows.
The funary customs of others are apt to seem grizzly to us, who are not
used to them.
From the web, I found some numbers which give a starting human ash
composition.
CaO 39.0%
P2O5 50.2%
K2O 4.8%
Na2O 3.8%
MgO 0.9%
SiO2 1.1%
Fe2O3 0.2%
ZnO 0.1%
LOI 94.8%
From the LOI and the weight of the person you can estimate the amount of
ash to expect. Be aware that people are cremated with a casket of some
combustible material like cardboard or wood, so the remains will contain
some wood ash as well. Also, if the body was embalmed, there might be some
residue from that process as well, and perhaps some metals from the
fasteners. Hope this will help.
Gavin
Fay & Ralph Loewenthal on mon 24 aug 98
Dear Clayarters, T G we are such a diverse lot of faiths,
races, creeds, whatever and still all potters. Our beliefs
have a strong influence on our creativity and that is what
makes each of our art interesting not only to us, but our
colleagues as well. I reacted as Richard did to this thread,
but did not want to respond until now.
I would like to explain the view from an Orthodox Jewish
perspective. The belief is that when the Messiah comes, all
the faithful, not only Jews, will travel to Jerusalem where
the presence of G_D will rest. The third temple will have
been established. If a person is cremated or any of the
organs are missing then that person cannot travel to
Jerusalem, so they are condemned to stay where they are.
I do not know if this is the official belief, but it is as I
understand it to be. There are far wiser and knowledgable
scholars now and in the past who can better explain this
than I can.
As I see it, Richard's was a gut reaction to what we grew up
to believe. I do not think he was trying to be critical. Hope
this clears the air a little Ralph in PE SA.
Lee Love on wed 26 aug 98
From: Richard Gralnik :
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This subject has come up before here on clayart and it always bothered
me that people would do this with a human body. It strikes me as
incredibly morbid. I would not want a pot with such a glaze in my
home. To me human remains belongs in the ground. Ashes to ashes.
Not ashes to ash glaze.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Hi Richard!
I don't mean to offend, but I'm a Buddhist and this
doesn't sound so morbid to me at all. Wouldn't it serve to honor the
life of the dead to put a symbolic amount of their material remains on a
beautiful and sacred object? From _my_ perspective, it beats the heck
out of having "the worms crawl in , the worms crawl out, the worms play
pinochle on my snout!" :^)
Isn't cultural diversity wonderful? :^)
Maybe you recall, I was inspired to begin learning pottery
because of the traditional Hassidic pine casket my late Zen teacher's body
laid in during his funeral. These caskets are nailess, so they can be
put in the crematory oven with the body. I had the honor of being one
of the persons to attend to the body and lead meditation what my teacher's
body rested for the traditional 3 days before cremation. (I know this is
different, compared to your tradition. IN Buddhism, it is believed that
the essences of the person stays with the body for 3 days.)
I was inspired by the craftsman that made this plain,
nailess coffin, to learn how to make urns to hold people's ashes.
That was about 7 years ago. I am just getting skillful enough to make
containers for the remains of pets. Eventually, I'll make them for
human remains too. For me, this is primarily an act of spiritual
devotion.
/(o\' Lee In Saint Paul, Minnesota USA
\o)/' mailto:Ikiru@Kami.com
' http://www.millcomm.com/~leelove/taiko.html
^New Akita photos from Japan^
Richard Gralnik on thu 27 aug 98
Yes, I remember our discussion about the coffin for your master.
You're absolutely right that my feelings are based on my culture,
traditions and sensibilities, and IN NO WAY are meant to disparage
or criticize anyone else's beliefs or feelings. These are my feelings
that are valid for me. I try to respect those of others the way I hope
they would respect mine.
Judaism does not apply its value system to non-Jews with the
exception of "The Seven Laws of the Children of Noah" (i.e.
everybody who was born after the Flood), which includes things
like not stealing, no cruelty to animals, no murder, and the requirement
to establish courts of law. (I can never remember all 7 but they have
to do with establishing a society where people can coexist.) Our
laws and customs of burial are ours, just as the kosher laws are ours.
It is not for me to say our traditions for treating human remains
should apply to you any more than I would say you shouldn't eat pork.
Richard
Marilee Schumann on thu 27 aug 98
Our close friend died and we had a wake (if you know what I mean) where we
scattered most of his ashes around the trees and flowers in his garden (he
was a landscape architect). Then we divided the rest of him up to take to
our separate gardens, mantlepieces, or, in my case, to make something with
out of clay. This almost seems irreverent, but, no. We loved the spirit of
our friend, and his physical remains are just, well, ashes. But physical
things can remind us of his spirit.
When I hold a pot made with spirit, I try to be mindful of or reminded of
the spirit of the potter. Can we keep the spirit of our friend alive by
trying to imbue a pot with the spirit or our feelings for him?
So, all this discussion about sensibilities is interesting. But does anyone
have any actual advice for using human ashes in a glaze? Like, a recipe?
Marilee Schumann
Marilees@dmv.com
Cindy on fri 28 aug 98
Marilee,
Just use a recipe that calls for bone ash. You might experiment beforehand
by using a combination of bone and wood ash, since there will presumably be
a coffin or some-such involved. I assume there's no need to worry that the
vessel in question be food safe.
This is undeniably an issue for each person to deal with on his/her own.
For myself, I wouldn't want to do it. I don't have any deeply held notions
regarding the sacredness of the empty shell that is a dead body, but the
idea of making a glaze of human ashes is distasteful to me for some reason
I can't explain. While it seems the height of respect to some, it feels
disrespectful to me.
Scattering or burying ashes doesn't bother me. Leaving a body out on a
raised burial platform, or even giving it to the birds seems natural, too.
Storing it up on a mantle, either in a jar or as a jar gives me a bad
feeling. Maybe it's the idea of being returned to the earth.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels
Custer, SD
USA http://blackhills-info.com/a/cindys/menu.htm
----------
> From: Marilee Schumann
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: human remains as a glaze ingredient
> Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 7:17 AM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Our close friend died and we had a wake (if you know what I mean) where
we
> scattered most of his ashes around the trees and flowers in his garden
(he
> was a landscape architect). Then we divided the rest of him up to take to
> our separate gardens, mantlepieces, or, in my case, to make something
with
> out of clay. This almost seems irreverent, but, no. We loved the spirit
of
> our friend, and his physical remains are just, well, ashes. But physical
> things can remind us of his spirit.
>
> When I hold a pot made with spirit, I try to be mindful of or reminded of
> the spirit of the potter. Can we keep the spirit of our friend alive by
> trying to imbue a pot with the spirit or our feelings for him?
>
> So, all this discussion about sensibilities is interesting. But does
anyone
> have any actual advice for using human ashes in a glaze? Like, a recipe?
>
> Marilee Schumann
> Marilees@dmv.com
>
Barbara Lewis on sat 29 aug 98
I have not had time to get into this thread on human remains, so this may
have already been mentioned, but I remember Paul Soldner using the remains
of a friend in a glaze. It was a beautiful story that apeared in Studio
Potter and if I have time,I'll research the issue and report back. I
believe the remains one receives from the funeral home is bone ash. So
maybe one should start with substituting the remains for the bone ash of a
particular glaze.
Testing a small amount would be recommended, since you wouldn't want to use
him all up and find out it didn't work! Good luck, Barbara
At 09:17 AM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Our close friend died and we had a wake (if you know what I mean) where we
>scattered most of his ashes around the trees and flowers in his garden (he
>was a landscape architect). Then we divided the rest of him up to take to
>our separate gardens, mantlepieces, or, in my case, to make something with
>out of clay. This almost seems irreverent, but, no. We loved the spirit of
>our friend, and his physical remains are just, well, ashes. But physical
>things can remind us of his spirit.
>
>When I hold a pot made with spirit, I try to be mindful of or reminded of
>the spirit of the potter. Can we keep the spirit of our friend alive by
>trying to imbue a pot with the spirit or our feelings for him?
>
>So, all this discussion about sensibilities is interesting. But does anyone
>have any actual advice for using human ashes in a glaze? Like, a recipe?
>
>Marilee Schumann
>Marilees@dmv.com
>
Wellspring Clayworks
5412 Well Spring Road
La Plata, MD 20646
blewis@crosslink.net
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