Chris Schafale on sun 20 sep 98
Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
from you electrically-literate folks out there.
Chris
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
Earl Brunner on sun 20 sep 98
Strictly speaking, you told him the specs on the job, specifically vetoing the
aluminum wiring and he went ahead and didn't do the job to your specs. Have
you paid him yet? I would require him to do the job the way the kiln people
said to do it. Furthermore, I'm not an electrician, and maybe things have
changed, but I don't think they even use alumionum wire around here anymore, I
think they had problems with it.
Michelle Henderson on sun 20 sep 98
In a message dated 98-09-20 17:05:21 EDT, you write:
<< So my question is:
does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>>
Chris...
As we are in the middle of building my studio and wiring for my 1227-3
Skutt kiln, my husband is more than happy to answer...YES, you should call him
back, and hold him to your specs. Is yours 3-phase? Either way, the
electrician should follow the recommended guidelines. If you could email me
directly, he could help you out a little more with further info. He says
using aluminum is going the "cheap" way (to save money on his costs), and you
may want to check your local ordinances to see what the minimum req. are.
Single phase requires heavier wire than 3-phase..
A little about myself as I am new to the list...I am an RN who is giving up
the crazy world of medicine to follow my dream of having my own
pottery/stainedglass studio. I am in the middle of getting my studio set up,
ect. and am trying to find a comprehensive workshop (at the least week long,
preferably 2) that would refresh me in the basics, and having always
handbuilt, I need to have some hands on with the wheel, glazing formulas, ect.
Does anyone know of such a program? I have found several on the web, but it
looks like most are given in the summer..I need something before the end of
the year.
My husband builds fine furniture, antique reproductions, some restoration
(as we live in a historic town), some millworks, and blacksmithing. We are
excited about combining our mediums to come up with some really unique pieces!
Glad to be a part of the list..
Michelle
Cameron Harman on mon 21 sep 98
Chris,
Just to let you know where I am coming from, I do kiln design and
supervise installations for a living. I have done so for 40 years
and am an engineer.
Get rid of the aluminum wire. You will regret it eventually. The
man was given clear instructions by you, so he is personally
liable when that aluminum wire starts to corrode from galvanic
action .. and it will unless he uses just exactly the right
fixture. Since he undersized the breaker I would not trust him to
be using the right fixture.
Have him remove it and replace it at his expense, you told him
correctly, he is the one who is letting you take a risk.
Sorry to come on so strong, but I have worked with so many
electrical and piping contractors over the years and they
continually try to use their judgment instead of the engineered
instructions. They seem to think that they know better than the
people who build the equipment.. you know the people who spend
their lives working out these problems in advance.
What you want to do comes right out of the NFPA (National Fire
Protection Association ) book which is used as the standard for
the building code in most jurisdictions. If he gets by with the
wrong stuff, you are the one at risk... don't let him get away
with it.
Regards,
Cameron
--
**********************************************************
Cameron G. Harman, Jr. 215-245-4040 fax 215-638-1812
e-mail kilns@kilnman.com
Ceramic Services, Inc 1060 Park Ave. Bensalem, PA 19020
get your free ezine: http://www.kilnman.com/ezine/ezine.html
THE place for total kiln and drier support
**********************************************************
Tom Buck on mon 21 sep 98
Chris:
You are right, stick with your original specs which this no-good
electrician is trying to change. DONT use aluminum wiring of any kind
especially near a hot kiln. There was a period locally (1970s)
when aluminum wiring (15-amp type) was used in new homes. But when too
many burned down and insurance compaines had to pay big sums, they
pressured the government to ban aluminum in such home construction, and
the government did so. Aluminum will BURN! Dam fool electrician! Tell him
a chemical engineer says he is wrong.
Your specs: 60-amp breaker, copper wire (4-wire, #6 gauge), and
the correct receptacle (outlet) for same. These are correct for an kiln
drawing up to 12 kilowatts of power (240 volts, 50 amps) because circuit
breakers can only handle 80% of the rated load at continuous output, and a
kiln sure is continous.
He wanted to use a 50-amp breaker because they are common and
cheaper. If you went with that you'd never be able to run the kiln
full-tilt; it would cut out at 40-amps. You line voltage will seldom reach
240 volts, be more like 230-232 volts, so you will be able to draw a
maximum of 46-48 amps and so all will be well.
Make him meet your original specs, and don't pay him if he wont.
Get a new electrician who will listen, and check with Skutt people.
Tom Buck ) tel: 905-389-2339 & snailmail: 373 East
43rd St. Hamilton ON L8T 3E1 Canada (westend Lake Ontario, province of
Ontario, Canada).
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Chris Schafale wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
> (snip)
> Chris
> Light One Candle Pottery
> Fuquay-Varina, NC
> candle@nuteknet.com
>
Ron Wright on mon 21 sep 98
Insist on the copper (#6 copper is fine). In some areas of the country
they no longer allow aluminum wiring. It can get brittle from use.
If you told the electrician exactly what you wanted and he still used
different materials, he was probably trying to make a little more money
by using materials left over from another job (I worked as an
electrician for a few years and you always have stuff left over).
I personally would tell him to rip it all out and never come back and
don't even think about getting paid (because of my day job I have very
little tolerance for people who jerk me around). But then I have heard
great things about calmly discussing the problem with the tradesman and
having him install what you paid for. Whatever approach you take get the
copper.
Ron Wright
3 Dogs pottery
http://www.concentric.net/~wrright
Mike Santone on mon 21 sep 98
I have a Scutt 1027. Used the #4 wire and it has worked fine. In fact have
heard that with the recommended #6 the kiln struggled to get to ^10. With
the 4 there has been no problem. Although I went with the 'very pricey'
copper.
However, bidding a job and then having the tradesperson not deliver would
make anyone angry.
mike, in portland
Chris Schafale wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
> have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
> getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
> told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
> the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
> wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
> and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
> ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
> breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
> agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
> this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
> say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
> specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
> does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
> wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
> from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>
> Chris
> Light One Candle Pottery
> Fuquay-Varina, NC
> candle@nuteknet.com
Mike Gordon on mon 21 sep 98
Hi,
Tell the jerk to put in EXACTLY what you told him to do!Bennets knows!
He's probably trying to rip you off. Copper is Better! Mike
Bob Loveland on mon 21 sep 98
My first question is, when he came for the estimate didnt he quote you a
price for using the copper.. if you are paying for copper and getting
alluminum, you are getting jipped . I was always taught that the
customer is always right even when they are wrong. you asked for copper and
60 amp breaker, you should demand it..
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schafale
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 5:04 PM
Subject: Kiln wiring
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
from you electrically-literate folks out there.
Chris
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
bowen dickson on mon 21 sep 98
Friend Chris:
First off - "Good on You" for giving the electrician the
exact 'specs' for the job...I do bits and pieces of work for folks around
here and appreciate it when they have a list made up of what needs to be
done - saves them money and me time,(I can pick up materials on the way to
the site, know what tools to bring, etc).
Since it sounds you were very clear about what you wanted
done and how, I think it's the electrician's responsibility to follow your
orders, especially since you had already reconfirmed your desire to follow
manufacturers instructions. Have him take it out and do it the way you
want, part of what you're paying for is peace of mind - the money he
'saved' you is not worth the doubts you'll have.
Best of luck on the first firing,
Bowen Dickson/Heron's Marsh Pottery
Kingston, Washington
the Gallagher's on tue 22 sep 98
Make him change it on principal, you did not get what you asked for. He
should not charge the time it will take because he messed up.
I don't think you should let him get away with this!
Michelle
in Oregon
(who is so happy to have a person in the house who can do wiring!)
Jim Cullen on tue 22 sep 98
Tongue in cheek intended...
Why not pay him 1/4rd the quote and tell him you decided to substitute
quarters for dollars because you thought it would save you some money. If he
can substitute at will, then so can you. Sounds fair to me. And I'm not even
an electrician.
BTW, I just did the exact same thing this Spring (60 amp breaker and higher
grade copper) and when I explained it to the electrician he thought it was a
great idea considering how I waas going to be using the circuit. And he wasn't
even a potter.
Don't settle for less. As that 'ol country-western song says. "You better
stand for something or you'll fall for anything."
Keep Centered
CULLEN
Naperville, Illinois
amy parker on tue 22 sep 98
He insists
>that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
>this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
>say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
>specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
>does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
>wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
>from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>
Chris - this guy is full of shit!!! Trust me! I had a journeyman
electrician come & wire my kiln & he even wanted to talk to the kiln
manufacturer about the wiring!!! If they say 60 amp, they damn well
mean it! If you put if 50, then either your kiln will not make temp, or it
may melt the wires doing so! This IS rocket science - insist on what
you asked for! Do not pay the SOB for anything less! Make him GUARANTEE
if WRITING that what you asked for is what he put in so you can sue his ass
to kingdom come if he doesn't do it! You have to LIVE with this! You do
NOT need/want a shortage of elec. to start a fire here, which underwiring
& overusage can do! This is why breakers & wires are rated!
amy parker Lithonia, GA
amyp@sd-software.com
Roger Korn on tue 22 sep 98
I just read Cameron's post about aluminum wiring. As a professional
Electrical Engineer and amateur electrician, I have to say, "Right on
and then some." The reason Al was used for some years was due to
commodity pricing that made Al much cheaper than Cu, even though the Al
cable was much larger for the same current capacity. The corrosion
problem at terminals was supposedly handled by a paste designed to
inhibit formation of aluminum oxide (aka, alumina, a great insulator).
The problem is, it didn't work very well, to the point that human
occupancy of structures with aluminum wiring was prohibited here in
Oregon because of the fires resulting from high resistance connections
in boxes. It's still used for service drops, but even that is
questionable.
I ran a 100 A. sub from my service entrance box (240V, 200A) to my shop/
studio panel using aluminum and all the approved procedures. As part of
my smoke detector checks, on the day we go from Standard Time to
Daylight Time and back every year, I started checking the temperature of
these connections with about 80 amps of load at the shop end. Everything
was fine for a few years, but suddenly, there was a little SMOKE at the
shop panel end of the sub! A voltmeter showed about 20 volts drop across
the connection. Les' see: 20 volts x 80 amps = 1600 watts - yeh, that'ld
get hot. Now, I redo the connections every year, sanding the conductors
and applying the corrosion preventing goop, a total pain, and I curse
myself for not having forked the extra $40 or so Cu cable would have
cost.
Bottom line, DON'T accept the job!
Roger
Gavin Stairs on tue 22 sep 98
At 05:03 PM 9/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
....
>getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
>told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
>the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
>wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
>and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
>ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
>breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
>agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
>I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
>copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
>that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. ...
The electrician is half right. The problem with aluminum wiring is not in
the wire, but in the terminals, the connection blocks. In aluminum wiring,
it is very important to have a gas tight connection at the teminals. This
is not trivially easy to obtain, and some codes do not allow aluminum
wiring for this reason. Others require that the wiring be done by
certified aluminum wiring technicians, using certified aluminum wiring
terminations. And so forth. The easiest way to decide what to do is to
talk to your insurer about fire risk. Ask what their position on aluminum
wiring is, and if they allow it, what requirements they impose on the
installation. If your electrician doesn't measure up, get him to re-wire
with Copper, which is what you specified.
If all this seems too much, get him to re-wire in any case. You specified
copper wire, and he didn't install it. I would mark this electrician down
with a black mark, and not use him again.
The issue of the size of the breaker is also interesting. There are two
issue with heater breaker: inrush load, and overvoltage.
When metallic heaters are started from room temperature, the resistance is
significantly leass than when they are hot. This means that the current
supplied to the heater by the constant voltage of the power line during the
warm-up will be significantly greater than the hot current. This value is
about 5% for Kanthal A-1, or 2.5A in 50A. So for the time it takes the
wires to begin to glow red, the kiln will draw 52.5A instead of 50A.
The other issue is overvoltage. The actual delivered voltage on your AC
line is quite variable. Kiln manufacturers try to design for the maximum
heating current for the expected line voltage, but that actual voltage may
vary considerably. For a 115V (nominal) AC line, the actual voltage may
vary from about 110V to 120V, and in some cases may lie outside these
limits for some time. The kilm manufacturer must design for a median
figure, but accept some variation. The kiln can therefore accept about 10%
or more current than the nominal case. The line wiring and breaker must be
sized to accept the greater current as well.
Combining the two problems, the name plate VA capacity of the kiln is
smaller by about 15% or more than the capacity that should be specified for
the wiring and breaker. So a 50A service becomes a 60A service.
Hope this helps.
Gavin
Gavin Stairs
Stairs Small Systems (S3)
921 College St., # 1-A
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6H 1A1
(416)530-0419 stairs@stairs.on.ca
Dannon Rhudy on tue 22 sep 98
All of these "don't accept the job" responses are
right on, and all the better when, as in the following,
they contain object lessons and/or the expertise
of people who really know what they are talking
about.
The electrician may (read "will") try to embarrass you
into accepting, by implying that he knows his business
and you don't. Pay no attention, just persist in saying
"I asked for "X"; I will neither accept nor pay for "Y".
You'll know that you are backed up by well-qualified
people who DO know his business.
Regards,
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
----------
> From: Roger Korn
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Kiln Wiring
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 5:28 PM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I just read Cameron's post about aluminum wiring. As a professional
> Electrical Engineer and amateur electrician, I have to say, "Right on
> and then some." The reason Al was used for some years was due to
> commodity pricing that made Al much cheaper than Cu, even though the Al
> cable was much larger for the same current capacity. The corrosion
> problem at terminals was supposedly handled by a paste designed to
> inhibit formation of aluminum oxide (aka, alumina, a great insulator).
> The problem is, it didn't work very well, to the point that human
> occupancy of structures with aluminum wiring was prohibited here in
> Oregon because of the fires resulting from high resistance connections
> in boxes. It's still used for service drops, but even that is
> questionable.
>
> I ran a 100 A. sub from my service entrance box (240V, 200A) to my shop/
> studio panel using aluminum and all the approved procedures. As part of
> my smoke detector checks, on the day we go from Standard Time to
> Daylight Time and back every year, I started checking the temperature of
> these connections with about 80 amps of load at the shop end. Everything
> was fine for a few years, but suddenly, there was a little SMOKE at the
> shop panel end of the sub! A voltmeter showed about 20 volts drop across
> the connection. Les' see: 20 volts x 80 amps = 1600 watts - yeh, that'ld
> get hot. Now, I redo the connections every year, sanding the conductors
> and applying the corrosion preventing goop, a total pain, and I curse
> myself for not having forked the extra $40 or so Cu cable would have
> cost.
>
> Bottom line, DON'T accept the job!
>
> Roger
Jack Ward on sat 21 nov 98
Chris Schafale wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
> have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
> getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
> told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
> the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
> wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
> and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
> ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
> breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
> agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
> this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
> say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
> specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
> does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
> wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
> from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>
> Chris
> Light One Candle Pottery
> Fuquay-Varina, NC
> candle@nuteknet.com
Chris, I know this is late.NEVER use Aluminum wire. Most states
outlawed ti because it breaks. I ma an electrician.
Cameron,Tom,Gavin and others are very wright I hope you have this
settled by now. jack
Tom Wirt on sun 22 nov 98
point,
>> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
>> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
>> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
Chris,
Make him replace the copper. Electrically No. 4 aluminum is the same as No.6
Copper. The problem will happen a few years down the road when the aluminum
starts to oxidize or corrode, and then you finally start to lose current. Kilns
won't heat as fast or maybe even reach temp. Junctions will get hot. Not good.
And this corrosion will take place even under the connection/connector. The
openly solution is to shut the power off, open the connection, clean the wire
and reassemble.....to start the process all over again. And as Jack indicated,
over time the aluminum becomes brittle and can break....much longer time frame
though.
Tom
tempy on sun 22 nov 98
Chris--
I to just got my own kiln (finally) a beautiful L & L model JD230 with
the electronic controller. My husband who iw a "butt-crack" electrician
wired it. I mentioned your situation and he said that you should insist
that the guy come back and re-wire the whole thing imediately, using copper
wire and a 60 amp breaker.
P.S--fired mine last night it didn't blow up!
Tempy--cold and shivering in Palmer, Alaska
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Chris Schafale wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original
>> message----------------------------
>> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
>> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
>> have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
>> getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
>> told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
>> the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
>> wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
>> and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
>> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
>> ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
>> breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
>> agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
>> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
>> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
>> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
>> this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
>> say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
>> specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
>> does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
>> wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
>> from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>>
>> Chris
>> Light One Candle Pottery
>> Fuquay-Varina, NC
>> candle@nuteknet.com
>
> Chris, I know this is late.NEVER use Aluminum wire. Most states
>outlawed ti because it breaks. I ma an electrician.
>Cameron,Tom,Gavin and others are very wright I hope you have this
>settled by now. jack
>
>
Paul \"Standing Bear\" on sun 22 nov 98
Never use alum. wire! You should be using # 4 wire if the kiln is located
within 40 in. ft. of the meter. If over 40 ft drop down to #2.
Alum. wire is now illegal in most states. Wire is cheap so don't skimp.
Good luck, Inner Vision Earth Art
Pat Porter on mon 23 nov 98
Chris, Jack et al,
I have to second Jack's statement about using aluminum wire. I live in a
condominium that is totally electric. The condo is going on 25 years old
now and I feel as if I have to have it fully re-wired, as all the wireing is
aluminum. Not only does it break, it expands and contracts so significantly
that I thought that I needed a new stove. When the electritians were
hardwireing it to the wall, they decided to check the circut breakers etc.
They were all loose. They fixed all of those, but said that I would have to
get to all the rest of the connections as they went bad and fix them.
This is a residential problem, I know. But if I have this much problem with
this, Imagine what your temprature control will be like in a few years when
things start comming loose. Have him pull the stuff and stand there while
he puts in the right stuff. Threaten him with code violation if he doesn't
comply.
Pat Porter
kitties@pcisys.net
Aurora Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Ward
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Saturday, November 21, 1998 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln wiring
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Chris Schafale wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original
>> message----------------------------
>> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
>> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
>> have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
>> getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
>> told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
>> the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
>> wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
>> and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
>> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
>> ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
>> breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
>> agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
>> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
>> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
>> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
>> this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
>> say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
>> specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
>> does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
>> wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
>> from you electrically-literate folks out there.
>>
>> Chris
>> Light One Candle Pottery
>> Fuquay-Varina, NC
>> candle@nuteknet.com
>
> Chris, I know this is late.NEVER use Aluminum wire. Most states
>outlawed ti because it breaks. I ma an electrician.
>Cameron,Tom,Gavin and others are very wright I hope you have this
>settled by now. jack
>
Chris Schafale on tue 24 nov 98
In case anyone else was thinking of responding, just wanted to point
out that this was an old message (late September?) that someone
apparently picked up from the archives, and the problem has long ago
been taken care of with the correct wiring & breaker. Thanks to all
who have responded, both at the time and recently.
Chris
> Chris, Jack et al,
>
> I have to second Jack's statement about using aluminum wire. I live in a
> condominium that is totally electric. The condo is going on 25 years old
> now and I feel as if I have to have it fully re-wired, as all the wireing is
> aluminum. Not only does it break, it expands and contracts so significantly
> that I thought that I needed a new stove. When the electritians were
> hardwireing it to the wall, they decided to check the circut breakers etc.
> They were all loose. They fixed all of those, but said that I would have to
> get to all the rest of the connections as they went bad and fix them.
>
> This is a residential problem, I know. But if I have this much problem with
> this, Imagine what your temprature control will be like in a few years when
> things start comming loose. Have him pull the stuff and stand there while
> he puts in the right stuff. Threaten him with code violation if he doesn't
> comply.
>
> Pat Porter
> kitties@pcisys.net
> Aurora Colorado
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Ward
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 1998 7:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Kiln wiring
>
>
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Chris Schafale wrote:
> >
> >> ----------------------------Original
> >> message----------------------------
> >> Well, folks, I'm finally getting my own kiln (Skutt 1027-3, with the
> >> controller)! The electrician came today to do the wiring, and now I
> >> have a question for you. I asked the folks at Bennett's, where I'm
> >> getting the kiln, what kind of wiring, breaker, etc., I needed. They
> >> told me 60 amp breaker, #6 copper wire, NEMA 6-50 receptacle. I told
> >> the electrician this when he came to do the estimate. He asked if I
> >> wanted to use #4 aluminum wire instead, because it would be cheaper,
> >> and I told him no, use copper, because that's what I was told to use.
> >> Well, he came today, and after he works for 2 hours and is getting
> >> ready to leave, I look at the work and notice he's put in a 50 amp
> >> breaker. I point this out, he argues with me, I insist, and he
> >> agrees to come back Monday bringing a 60 amp breaker. At this point,
> >> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
> >> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
> >> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
> >> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
> >> this point I cave in, hating to force him to redo the whole job, and
> >> say, OK, just leave it. But I'm annoyed, especially since I was
> >> specific about what I wanted, and I'm worried. So my question is:
> >> does it matter? Should I call him back and insist on getting copper
> >> wire? While I'm at it, is #6 heavy enough? Thanks for any advice
> >> from you electrically-literate folks out there.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >> Light One Candle Pottery
> >> Fuquay-Varina, NC
> >> candle@nuteknet.com
> >
> > Chris, I know this is late.NEVER use Aluminum wire. Most states
> >outlawed ti because it breaks. I ma an electrician.
> >Cameron,Tom,Gavin and others are very wright I hope you have this
> >settled by now. jack
> >
>
>
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
eden@sover.net on sat 28 nov 98
I missed the first part of this, but I used to work for an electrician and
did commercial wiring so I'll put in my brief 2c.....which is that I think
you should over-do it. Especially if there is any distance between breaker
and kiln (more than 6-10 ft). And you are direct wired, I trust. No
junctions between breaker and kiln.
Eleanora
At 07:14 PM 11/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>point,
>>> I decide I'd better review the rest of it, and I say, so this is #6
>>> copper wire, right, and he says, no, it's #4 aluminum! He insists
>>> that it's fine, that it will do the same job, that there's no
>>> functional difference, but if I'm sooo unhappy, he'll replace it. At
>
>
>Chris,
>
>Make him replace the copper. Electrically No. 4 aluminum is the same as No.6
>Copper. The problem will happen a few years down the road when the aluminum
>starts to oxidize or corrode, and then you finally start to lose current.
Kilns
>won't heat as fast or maybe even reach temp. Junctions will get hot. Not
good.
>And this corrosion will take place even under the connection/connector. The
>openly solution is to shut the power off, open the connection, clean the wire
>and reassemble.....to start the process all over again. And as Jack
indicated,
>over time the aluminum becomes brittle and can break....much longer time
frame
>though.
>
>Tom
>
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net
"Can love, through the exercise of art, overcome death?" ---SalmanRushdie
Betty Burroughs on mon 21 dec 98
I have just purchased a new Skutt 1027-3 with a computerized controller. My
local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired? My
electrician says it makes no sense to do that because the terminal strip
inside the control box is not accessible and to tamper with it could affect
the warranty.
If any of you have any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate hearing from
you. TIA
_____________________________
Betty Burroughs
Victoria, BC
Canada
Paul \"Standing Bear\" on tue 22 dec 98
Actually your electrician has a point. But before I go into that remember that
all elect. kiln company's try yo make these so that they are somewhat
portable, not knowing where or how they are going to be installed.
On a mod. # 1027 you should be running #4 copper wire if the kiln is installed
with in 40 lineal feet from the meter. You should be using 60 amp. breaker.
That 40 foot is not as the crow fly's, but up and around what ever it takes to
go to the meter. You should run the power to within 3 feet of the kiln into a
quick disconnect box that is fussed with a 60 amp fuse. From there make a
short run, in flex inside the red box. The kiln will run more efficiently that
way because the # 4 wire coming from the quick disconnect switch is larger
gauge than what you have in the stock pig tail that came with the kiln.
Just print this out and give it to him and he will take it from there.
Hope this helps. Happy Holiday from,
Paul Bradford
innervisionearthart.com
E- Mail: IVEarthArt@aol.com
Tom Wirt on tue 22 dec 98
>>-----Original Message-----
>Subject: Kiln wiring
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have just purchased a new Skutt 1027-3 with a computerized >controller. My
>local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
>It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired?
Betty
We've used a 1027-3 for 5 years, firing 2-3 times a week using the supplied
plug. Not had any problem as long as the wiring in he wall is up to snuff. We
did direct the 2 Cone-Arts which are 68 amp pulls.. I guess I might offer the
rule of thumb that anything over 50 amp should be hard wired. The Skutt is just
under that.
Tom Wirt
PMFox on tue 22 dec 98
Betty Burroughs wrote:
> It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired?
Betty-
I recently had a melt-down of a three-prong plug which was caused by
residue buildup on the prongs. Resistance grew and grew until the heat
buildup caused the plastic casing to melt. This could have been a
catastrophe.. if I'd been firing overnight instead of during the day I
wouldn't have noticed. If you don't hard wire, moniter the temperature
of the plug each firing by placing your hand on it.. it shouldn't be
getting hot.
Patti in Wisconsin, where winter is just now hitting (temp is below
nothing and wind is blowing)
Louis Katz on tue 22 dec 98
I would call Skutt.
http://www.skutt.com/
Skutt Ceramic Products
6441 SE Johnson Creek Boulevard
Portland, OR 97206-9552
Phone 503.774-6000 ..........Fax 503.774-7833
Louis
Betty Burroughs wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have just purchased a new Skutt 1027-3 with a computerized controller. My
> local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
> It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired? My
> electrician says it makes no sense to do that because the terminal strip
> inside the control box is not accessible and to tamper with it could affect
> the warranty.
> If any of you have any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate hearing from
> you. TIA
>
> _____________________________
> Betty Burroughs
> Victoria, BC
> Canada
--
Louis Katz
lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director At Large
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts Webmaster (512) 994-5987
Tim Stowell on tue 22 dec 98
Hello,
I have two large skutts. Both are hard wired. The gentleman
(Dennis Smith,
NorthEast Ceramic Supply) I ordered them from suggested that I do this.
When I talked to my
electrician he also said it was a good idea. Your electrician should be
able to remove the plug.
Mine came without plugs because that was the way I ordered them (Thank
you , Dennis).
They are hard wired into a switched breaker box that I can turn
off when the kilns
are not in use. Then that is wired into my main electrical panel. The
plugs are a weak link in
the connection and cause slightly more resistance to the electricity.
Plus with time they can
become oxidized, I have seen this with my smaller kilns (that are now for
sale). They can also
short out. In my experience building inspectors and insurance companies
feel better about
the hard wiring arrangement also.
If you decide to do it call Skutt. They'll probably tell you to
take the plug end off. I am
curious. Did you purchase it from a local supplier or from an ad in a
magazine? This is usually
where the local guy is better. In an emergency situation the local person
will be there and
they usually give better advice when your making the purchase initially.
Tim
Gerard Stowell Pottery
Troy, NY
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Ross Hartman on tue 22 dec 98
Betty;
I recently purchased a Skutt PK1227 Automatic. This kiln is rated at 70 amps
and in my case the kiln must be 'hard-wired' according to the Skutt
documentation and a clue is given by the fact that the connection cabling has
no plug type terminal.
I would _speculate_ that there may simply be some confusion between models (by
your supplier ), 1027 uses a plug because it has lower current requirements
than PK 1227 but the number designation is
different by only a zero and a two..
I would think (check the Skutt documentation, all of their models are in
there, or call them) that if the kiln is delivered with a plug type
connection, then a plug socket hookup is OK.
FWIW..
L8R/Ross
Betty Burroughs wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have just purchased a new Skutt 1027-3 with a computerized controller. My
> local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
> It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired? My
> electrician says it makes no sense to do that because the terminal strip
> inside the control box is not accessible and to tamper with it could affect
> the warranty.
> If any of you have any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate hearing from
> you. TIA
>
> _____________________________
> Betty Burroughs
> Victoria, BC
> Canada
Stephen J. Lewicki on tue 22 dec 98
At 03:02 PM 12/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have just purchased a new Skutt 1027-3 with a computerized controller. My
>local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
>It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired? My
>electrician says it makes no sense to do that because the terminal strip
>inside the control box is not accessible and to tamper with it could affect
>the warranty.
> If any of you have any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate hearing from
>you. TIA
>
>
>
>_____________________________
>Betty Burroughs
>Victoria, BC
>Canada
>
I believe there are local Canadian regulations that require kilns to be
hard wired. You may want to check with a local electrical inspector. I
would also check with Skutt to see what they say about the warranty. We
have no problem in our kilns (L&L Kiln Mfg) if someone decides to remove
the plug and hard wire it. Although large power cords are are a convenience
they also are a potential source of problems (i.e. oxidation and heating at
the plug).
Stephen Lewicki
President
L&L Kiln Mfg Inc.
Phone: (610) 558-3899
Fax: (610) 558-3698
Email: steve@hotkilns.com
Euclid's Kilns & Elements on wed 23 dec 98
>>>My local supplier has advised me that this kiln should be hard-wired.
It comes with a three-prong plug-in so why must it be hard-wired? >>>
Hi Betty,
If the kiln came from Skutt with a plug on it, the plug is safe to use. The
reason alot of people "hard-wire" kilns is because the blades of the plug
can (& will) overheat eventually & cause a failure. Plugs & receptacles
never really fit together too well so they overheat, get a little soft,
arch a little, arch more & burn out. Sometimes the receptacle melts,
sometimes the blades melt, sometimes the wires to the receptacle burn off.
Hard wiring is definately a superior connection.
Chris @
Euclid's Kilns and Elements
1-800-296-5456
Web Site: http://www.euclids.com
E-Mail: mail@euclids.com
mel jacobson on wed 30 apr 03
it matters not a bit if you hard wire, soft wire...
have cords, plugs.
you MUST know how to turn off the power.
PERIOD.
this is not a casual condition. it can kill you.
220V 50 amps is dangerous.
so.
when you turn off the power....use a big piece
of duct tape. with a felt pen...KILN POWER OFF.
RIGHT OVER THE SWITCH. tape the switch shut.
then, before you take the kiln apart. turn it on.
set the timer...and make sure it is off.
if lights come on...you did something wrong.
it is like a chain saw....`hi mr. right hand, hi mr. left hand...
where are you? what are you doing?`
all of this can be done with ease and fun...but, make sure
the power is off....really off.
if you are a novice....make sure you have six rolls of tape.
red, blue, green, orange, white, black.
mark every wire you take off. write it down on a pad.
wire one, red.
wire two, blue.
or, if you have a digital camera...take a picture of the
wiring and put it back just the way you found it.
makes sense.
mel
it takes just a few minutes and bit of thinking
to make these jobs safe, practical, and worth your time.
you do the same thing when you take your computer all
apart. put it on the kitchen table.
`wow, this was not that hard to do.
but, where do i put things back?`
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.TICK-ATTACK.COM
Roger Korn on thu 1 may 03
mel jacobson wrote:
> it matters not a bit if you hard wire, soft wire...
> have cords, plugs.
>
> you MUST know how to turn off the power.
> PERIOD.
> this is not a casual condition. it can kill you.
> 220V 50 amps is dangerous.
>
> so.
> when you turn off the power....use a big piece
> of duct tape. with a felt pen...KILN POWER OFF.
> RIGHT OVER THE SWITCH. tape the switch shut.
Get a "Safety Disconnect" switch that accepts a padlock in the OFF position.
Particularly in institutional situations where everyone is not
necessarily on the same page.
Clothespins with red flagging tape clip to circuit breaker switches that
are taped in the OFF
position.
>
>
> then, before you take the kiln apart. turn it on.
> set the timer...and make sure it is off.
> if lights come on...you did something wrong.
>
> it is like a chain saw....`hi mr. right hand, hi mr. left hand...
> where are you? what are you doing?`
>
> all of this can be done with ease and fun...but, make sure
> the power is off....really off.
> if you are a novice....make sure you have six rolls of tape.
> red, blue, green, orange, white, black.
> mark every wire you take off. write it down on a pad.
> wire one, red.
> wire two, blue.
And use masking tape with terminal markings identifying what the wire
connects to.
And if you modify the kiln, provide a new schematic in a baggie attached
to the disconnect switch, plus give one to the department tech person.
I'm usually working on someone else's kiln, in institutional settings.
Be sure to chat with the regular maintenance staff about what's going
on. Get 'em on your side - its good for business and improves safety.
>
> or, if you have a digital camera...take a picture of the
> wiring and put it back just the way you found it.
> makes sense.
And keep the photos on file - sometimes it eliminates a road trip to
trouble-shoot problems. Most of my customers in AZ are 45 or 90 miles
away from Arkysanto.
>
> mel
> it takes just a few minutes and bit of thinking
> to make these jobs safe, practical, and worth your time.
>
> you do the same thing when you take your computer all
> apart. put it on the kitchen table.
> `wow, this was not that hard to do.
> but, where do i put things back?`
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
> or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> new/ http://www.TICK-ATTACK.COM
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
j e motzkin on fri 2 may 03
Whether your kiln is hardwired or plugged, know your
system. I like mine hard-wired. I did see in one of the
messages on this topic that the person had a fuse box in
which the lever was on in the down position. By the
electric wiring standard I learned...OFF should always be
in the down position. That way, should the force of
gravity take the switch in it's clutches, you will safely
turn off, not on. A fuse box is essential for hard wiring
a kiln, in my opinion. Do it right though.
Jude
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