Barb Lund on wed 9 dec 98
Yesterday I had a visit from a young woman in our neighborhood who is at
her wits end as far as what to do about school. All I know is what she has
told me. She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
relate to her artistic studies. She is on the verge of dropping out in
frustration and came to me as a wise old woman of the neighborhood :=))
(the extra")" is for the extra chins). Being a largely self taught
functional potter and not a sculptor and a non graduate I probably told her
what her parents might not like to hear. You don't need a degree to do
your art. However, she does wish to acquire more technical skills and that
can be hard to do without a pool of friends whose brains one can pick. I
told her I would put this question out on to clayart and ask for
suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic studies without
the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects. I think she is very fond of
the Midwest so not more than a days long drive from Bloomington,In. would
be good. I know nothing of her skill level-just that she is really
distraught (end of the semester doesn't help either) and ready to throw in
the towel. also she has just been told she has a learnig
disorder-something about being unable to put things sequential order-she
wasn't surthat probably furthers her frustration with regular school work.
Any suggestions out there. I'm sorry I haven't been following the thread
about sculptors just because I'm not one and time is short these days.
other Barb in Bloomington
Erin Hayes on thu 10 dec 98
Hello All!
I felt a need to comment on this statement from a recent post.
(A statement which I am certain was made with the best
intentions.)
>suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic
studies without
>the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects
As a college instructor, I more often find that my classes fall
into the "annoyance of totally irrelevant" category in most
students' minds. I shake my head at the foolishness of
dismissing art as irrelevant to getting a Business degree or a
degree in Physics.
As a grad student, my instructors discouraged me from taking
anything but the classes that were required for my ceramics
degree. I smiled, nodded and took other classes anyway. The idea
that any knowledge is irrelevant really grates, even in the
context it was said in this post. As artists, I think we have a
better view than most of the interrelatedness of academic
disciplines as well as the general web of knowledge and
experience. It's a shame to deny that just because of the
traditional academic setting.
I often tell my students (especially the ones who see art as an
"easy" field) that the best artists are the same as the best
doctors, the best carpenters or the best waitstaff. The ones who
see the whole instead of the parts, who understand more than what
they have to know to function will excel in anything they chose
to do. I believe that more information, not less, is part of the
key to that success.
Just my big-mouthed opinion, as always...
Erin.
Chris Huske on thu 10 dec 98
Barb, it's great of you to try to help your young friend. Higher education=
is
not for everyone but with the same token very, very few people can make a =
living
just doing art. She needs to set goals for what she wants in life.
I work at a small university and spend as much time as I can in the art =
studio,
working with clay. I would love to be able to chuck the rest of the world =
off
and stay in the studio, put realistically that isn't possible. I think you
friend needs to weight all her options before making a decision. She could =
look
for employment in the ceramic field but she might have to settle with some =
other
line of work and do sculpting on the side. She should either put off her
education until she is ready to take the classes not related to her major or=
she
could reduce the number of hours she takes which would reduce the pressure =
she
feels. As far as the disability is concerned she is only as disable as she
allows herself to be. Learning =26 physically disabled people graduate =
from
college every year. Most of all don't make hasty decisions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Barb Lund =5BSMTP:barblund=40bluemarble.net=5D
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:18 AM
To: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Sculpture student in distress
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Yesterday I had a visit from a young woman in our neighborhood who is at
her wits end as far as what to do about school. All I know is what she has
told me. She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
relate to her artistic studies. She is on the verge of dropping out in
frustration and came to me as a wise old woman of the neighborhood :=3D))
(the extra=22)=22 is for the extra chins). Being a largely self taught
functional potter and not a sculptor and a non graduate I probably told her
what her parents might not like to hear. You don't need a degree to do
your art. However, she does wish to acquire more technical skills and that
can be hard to do without a pool of friends whose brains one can pick. I
told her I would put this question out on to clayart and ask for
suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic studies without
the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects. I think she is very fond of
the Midwest so not more than a days long drive from Bloomington,In. would
be good. I know nothing of her skill level-just that she is really
distraught (end of the semester doesn't help either) and ready to throw in
the towel. also she has just been told she has a learnig
disorder-something about being unable to put things sequential order-she
wasn't surthat probably furthers her frustration with regular school work.
Any suggestions out there. I'm sorry I haven't been following the thread
about sculptors just because I'm not one and time is short these days.
other Barb in Bloomington
Louis Katz on thu 10 dec 98
I am not sure if this is an appropriate solution to your friends problems
with school, but,
the private art colleges tend to have fewer academic requirements. At
theKansas City Art Institute these requirements will probably met by more
interesting subject matter and definately smaller class sizes. Of course the
Tuititon is more than $6000 per semester .
Louis
> She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
> studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
> is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
> relate to her artistic studies.
--
Louis Katz
lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director At Large
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts Webmaster (512) 994-5987
Vince Pitelka on thu 10 dec 98
>Yesterday I had a visit from a young woman in our neighborhood who is at
>her wits end as far as what to do about school. All I know is what she has
>told me. She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
>studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
>is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
>relate to her artistic studies. She is on the verge of dropping out in
>frustration
Barb -
We have just the place for your friend. Tennessee Tech University's
Appalachian Center for Crafts, Mecca for dysfunctional students. I say that
only partly as a joke. It has been my experience that LOTS of artists tend
to be a little (or a lot) dyslexic and/or dysfunctional in the normal
academic classes. I certainly was such a student, and it took me a lot of
years to get to art, and with it, academic salvation. The best art programs
should accommodate these academic eccentricities, because such students are
often blessed with great ability and creativity.
Under the circumstances, I would agree that your friend should concentrate
on the areas of study which bring her the most satisfaction and allow her
the most progress. From that may come the autonomy and self-direction to
tackle the academic grind, but there is no sense in forcing it now. That's
the way it works with art, and that is why it is so tragic when art is
eliminated from K-12 art curriculae. Often, the struggling, dysfunctional
student just needs SOMETHING which they are good at, and which brings
positive attention. Art can often do that so effectively.
There are few places in the country which will allow such flexibility in
designing a custom course of study. We do that here at the Craft Center.
Our "Portfolio Development Program allows the student to come for a semester
or more for a very flexible course of study, which is mutually designed by
the student and faculty. The studies may or may not include some art
foundations, drawing, and art history. Ultimately these decisions are
mutually made by student and faculty based on the individual needs and goals
of the student.
We recognize that our Portfolio Development Program is unusual. As our
enrollment increases, we may have to cut back on this program, but I hope
not. There is a great need for such programs, and as mentioned above, most
universities do not allow such flexibility. The evaluation of so many
university programs is entirely "outcomes based," and the outcomes must be
quantifiable. So, most universities are only interested in offering
traditional degree programs for art majors and a few general education
electives for non-majors.
At the Craft Center we also offer one-year and two-year Professional Craft
Certificate programs, which include much of the course requirements of the
BFA curriculum, but without the general education expectations.
Please have your friend contact me at the numbers below or via email. I'd
be glad to provide more information. We are in central Tennessee, about an
hour east of Nashville, and about 350 miles from Bloomington, Indiana, an
easy day's drive.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
MR WENDELL R RIDENOUR on thu 10 dec 98
Dear Barb, I have the same problem...I go To Indiana Unv. in South
Bend...They have a very good pottery Teacher...Jon Hook from
Minnesota.....is his name.....
My counselor told me that, what may work for me ,is to pursue a class,
I can get just in that area and to forget about the classes that
don't interest me....so that what I'm doing at this point....St.
Mary's in South Bend, In. has a very good pottery program (Notre
Dame) Also Goshen College has a very ,very good program. She could
start and take only what interest her and then maybe work at a
production studio under a good name and learn what she can...a lot of
good potters have done this, very same thing. Oh! yes Goshen college
is in Goshen, Indiana...Also Dick Lehman, you see a lot of his work
in books, magazines etc. is at the bag factory, in Goshen,Indiana and
may be able to give some good advice. Ellen from Indiana
Pat Porter on thu 10 dec 98
Hi Erin
I agree with your stand on higher education and the arts. Back when I was
attending University of Denver in the late 60's, some of the most
interesting work was comming from the electrical engineering students. And
some of those students had other areas of expertise (like photography and
cinematography).
My point is that regardless of degree, furthering one's knowledge can only
add depth to one's own work. Or accessability to information in a foriegn
language. Or a thread in history to grab and expand on. Sure a person can
get by on just the art courses or going to a production shop as an
apprentice, but the opportunity to react with a large diverse population is
removed. Just think how a quarter's worth of chemistry would clarify
understanding of how glazes react together or a semester of physics would
help understanding how and why a pot could withstand throwing at one speed
vs another. It would really cut some of the work down in the long run.
I have always espoused the more education the better. But that is for me
and about me. In some cases individuals just cannot accept the educational
paradigm and will learn all the necessary craft skills by the best means
possible for that individual. That should be encouraged. If the person
just does not fit the paradigm why force it on them? If they have the
talent or the desire, mabe the route to the goal is not so important.
Just my .02 cents worth
Pat Porter
kitties@pcisys.net
Aurora Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: Erin Hayes
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Sculpture student in distress
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hello All!
>
>I felt a need to comment on this statement from a recent post.
>(A statement which I am certain was made with the best
>intentions.)
>
>>suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic
>studies without
>>the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects
>
>As a college instructor, I more often find that my classes fall
>into the "annoyance of totally irrelevant" category in most
>students' minds. I shake my head at the foolishness of
>dismissing art as irrelevant to getting a Business degree or a
>degree in Physics.
>
>As a grad student, my instructors discouraged me from taking
>anything but the classes that were required for my ceramics
>degree. I smiled, nodded and took other classes anyway. The idea
>that any knowledge is irrelevant really grates, even in the
>context it was said in this post. As artists, I think we have a
>better view than most of the interrelatedness of academic
>disciplines as well as the general web of knowledge and
>experience. It's a shame to deny that just because of the
>traditional academic setting.
>
>I often tell my students (especially the ones who see art as an
>"easy" field) that the best artists are the same as the best
>doctors, the best carpenters or the best waitstaff. The ones who
>see the whole instead of the parts, who understand more than what
>they have to know to function will excel in anything they chose
>to do. I believe that more information, not less, is part of the
>key to that success.
>
>Just my big-mouthed opinion, as always...
>
>Erin.
>
Ray Carlton on fri 11 dec 98
hi barb I am a pro potter and had virtually no training in clay whatever I
spent 3 semesters at an art school 30 years ago where I learnt what clay
felt like, what a wheel looked like, that i couldn't draw, sculpt, do
graphics, or any other of the subjects i was supposed to do......so, being
a kid i messed up and left. A few years later i took up clay and taught
myself through books and trial and error and looking carefully at work in
galleries and shops and and i have never stopped making pots for my supper
ever since. It was my passion for clay that made my living from clay not my
education or lack of it. It is that incandescant spark, that burning desire
that is in your friend that will make her a famous clay sculptor. All that
she needs is already in her heart. I would suggest that she go buy some
clay and books. Find a corner in the garage and DO IT NOW!! Education? well
you dont have to go to college to learn about clay. There is probably a
pottery or clay studio somewhere close by and usually clay people are a
jolly and generous lot and easily share info..just coz you are a sculptor
doesn't mean that a potter can't give you a hint or two.
good luck to your friend and let her go where her heart leads and she can
not go wrong.
At 09:55 10/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Barb, it's great of you to try to help your young friend. Higher
education is
>not for everyone but with the same token very, very few people can make a
living
>just doing art. She needs to set goals for what she wants in life.
>I work at a small university and spend as much time as I can in the art
studio,
>working with clay. I would love to be able to chuck the rest of the world
off
>and stay in the studio, put realistically that isn't possible. I think you
>friend needs to weight all her options before making a decision. She
could look
>for employment in the ceramic field but she might have to settle with some
other
>line of work and do sculpting on the side. She should either put off her
>education until she is ready to take the classes not related to her major
or she
>could reduce the number of hours she takes which would reduce the pressure
she
>feels. As far as the disability is concerned she is only as disable as she
>allows herself to be. Learning & physically disabled people graduate from
>college every year. Most of all don't make hasty decisions.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barb Lund [SMTP:barblund@bluemarble.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:18 AM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: Sculpture student in distress
>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Yesterday I had a visit from a young woman in our neighborhood who is at
>her wits end as far as what to do about school. All I know is what she has
>told me. She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
>studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
>is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
>relate to her artistic studies. She is on the verge of dropping out in
>frustration and came to me as a wise old woman of the neighborhood :=))
>(the extra")" is for the extra chins). Being a largely self taught
>functional potter and not a sculptor and a non graduate I probably told her
>what her parents might not like to hear. You don't need a degree to do
>your art. However, she does wish to acquire more technical skills and that
>can be hard to do without a pool of friends whose brains one can pick. I
>told her I would put this question out on to clayart and ask for
>suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic studies without
>the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects. I think she is very fond of
>the Midwest so not more than a days long drive from Bloomington,In. would
>be good. I know nothing of her skill level-just that she is really
>distraught (end of the semester doesn't help either) and ready to throw in
>the towel. also she has just been told she has a learnig
>disorder-something about being unable to put things sequential order-she
>wasn't surthat probably furthers her frustration with regular school work.
>Any suggestions out there. I'm sorry I haven't been following the thread
>about sculptors just because I'm not one and time is short these days.
>other Barb in Bloomington
>
cheers Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
Kelley Webb Randel on fri 11 dec 98
Hey!
I've got to say, all those totally irrelevant subjects that "annoy" artists
wantabees have been some of the most fulfilling semesters of my school years!
The semester I took Geology, Ceramics III, Fibers and Math was one of the most
demanding, but also the most eye opening. I found it all to be inter related;
studying the movements of the earth and learning to mix clay and glazes while
studying Fibonacci numbers and creating nonfunctional fiber art. This is the
time in my life when I became an artist, discovering the history and function
of the planet and universe. It made my small dot of a life seem totally
irrelevant and immensely important, simultaneously.
An education is never wasted or a waste of time, even with learning
disabilities. Some subjects may be more of a struggle, but they'll be worth
it. I promise.
Kelley Webb Randel
Rakugddss@aol.com
Deb Pratt on sat 12 dec 98
Barb,
I work some with college students with learning disabilities. Schools
receiving federal financial aid are required by law to provide certain
reasonable accommodations to students with learning disabilities; maybe
she hasn't looked into that. Also, Vincennes has a very good program
called STEP (not specifically art-related) that is designed just for LD
students. If her frustration is that great, perhaps she might need to
reevaluate "needing" the formal approach....
Just some thoughts from someone who runs into students occasionally who
really would be happier and better off in less traditional education
circumstances.
Deb
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Joanne Van Bezooyen on sat 12 dec 98
This has been a timely discussion for me, and I've open-mindedly read and
accepted everyone's opinions. My 22-yr.-old-daughter completed 1 1/2 years of
college...became confused...struck out....landed a great job earning
$50,000/year + benefits...but has low self-esteem due to the lowly title she has
within the company and the inability to progress without the degree. Right now
she has an emotional block against returning to school to finish her degree and
is trying to justify her negativitiy by arguing there is no benefit to college
except that piece of paper....one learns very little in school, it's in the
'real' world one acquire's ones' education...etc. etc....blah blah blah. All of
the 'things' and 'stuff' she's been able to purchase these past 2 years has not
done anything to fill her soul or make her happy. It is a frustrating time for
her. She only wants me to listen and to agree with her.
I'm wondering....is it the people who've graduated from a college who think the
broad-based education is important in one's career and life?
Is it the people who do not have the degree that feel it is not necessary?
Do we justify the road we've taken?
Joanne
Ray Carlton wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> hi barb I am a pro potter and had virtually no training in clay whatever I
> spent 3 semesters at an art school 30 years ago where I learnt what clay
> felt like, what a wheel looked like, that i couldn't draw, sculpt, do
> graphics, or any other of the subjects i was supposed to do......so, being
> a kid i messed up and left. A few years later i took up clay and taught
> myself through books and trial and error and looking carefully at work in
> galleries and shops and and i have never stopped making pots for my supper
> ever since. It was my passion for clay that made my living from clay not my
> education or lack of it. It is that incandescant spark, that burning desire
> that is in your friend that will make her a famous clay sculptor. All that
> she needs is already in her heart. I would suggest that she go buy some
> clay and books. Find a corner in the garage and DO IT NOW!! Education? well
> you dont have to go to college to learn about clay. There is probably a
> pottery or clay studio somewhere close by and usually clay people are a
> jolly and generous lot and easily share info..just coz you are a sculptor
> doesn't mean that a potter can't give you a hint or two.
>
> good luck to your friend and let her go where her heart leads and she can
> not go wrong.
>
> At 09:55 10/12/98 EST, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Barb, it's great of you to try to help your young friend. Higher
> education is
> >not for everyone but with the same token very, very few people can make a
> living
> >just doing art. She needs to set goals for what she wants in life.
> >I work at a small university and spend as much time as I can in the art
> studio,
> >working with clay. I would love to be able to chuck the rest of the world
> off
> >and stay in the studio, put realistically that isn't possible. I think you
> >friend needs to weight all her options before making a decision. She
> could look
> >for employment in the ceramic field but she might have to settle with some
> other
> >line of work and do sculpting on the side. She should either put off her
> >education until she is ready to take the classes not related to her major
> or she
> >could reduce the number of hours she takes which would reduce the pressure
> she
> >feels. As far as the disability is concerned she is only as disable as she
> >allows herself to be. Learning & physically disabled people graduate from
> >college every year. Most of all don't make hasty decisions.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Barb Lund [SMTP:barblund@bluemarble.net]
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:18 AM
> >To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> >Subject: Sculpture student in distress
> >
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Yesterday I had a visit from a young woman in our neighborhood who is at
> >her wits end as far as what to do about school. All I know is what she has
> >told me. She wants to be a clay sculptor and that is what she has been
> >studying both here IU Bloomington and At a school in Virginia. Her trouble
> >is that she just can't hack the rest of the college requirements that don't
> >relate to her artistic studies. She is on the verge of dropping out in
> >frustration and came to me as a wise old woman of the neighborhood :=))
> >(the extra")" is for the extra chins). Being a largely self taught
> >functional potter and not a sculptor and a non graduate I probably told her
> >what her parents might not like to hear. You don't need a degree to do
> >your art. However, she does wish to acquire more technical skills and that
> >can be hard to do without a pool of friends whose brains one can pick. I
> >told her I would put this question out on to clayart and ask for
> >suggestions on where she could go to further her artistic studies without
> >the annoyance of totally irrelevant subjects. I think she is very fond of
> >the Midwest so not more than a days long drive from Bloomington,In. would
> >be good. I know nothing of her skill level-just that she is really
> >distraught (end of the semester doesn't help either) and ready to throw in
> >the towel. also she has just been told she has a learnig
> >disorder-something about being unable to put things sequential order-she
> >wasn't surthat probably furthers her frustration with regular school work.
> >Any suggestions out there. I'm sorry I haven't been following the thread
> >about sculptors just because I'm not one and time is short these days.
> >other Barb in Bloomington
> >
> cheers Ray Carlton
>
> McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
>
>
Marty Yochum on sun 13 dec 98
Joanne,
I dont believe that only people with degrees think that having a degree is
necessary. Neither of my parents had degrees but they encouraged me to
better myself. Only a short time ago that meant getting a college degree to
get a better job. With all of the new fields of tecnology getting a better
job may not require a college degree, but
today, especially in the arts, it is the broad spectrum of experience, not
just tecnical know-how that comes from a college education.
I received my BFA and then went directly into an MFA program. I quit with
only my MFA exhibition and one course left to finish. I was an ARTIST, I
thought I didn't need any more direction. But seven years later I begged my
way back into the program and discovered MORE than the first 54 hours of
classes in that program could have ever shown me. I found a mentor, and a
support system of other students
as well as a serious direction and intent for my work.
I now have that degree, I needed it for the good position I have in a
museum, and my life is about art and being an artist. I would not have
reached this point of optimum sucess and happiness while feeling incomplete
about my education.
Learning disabilities are rampant in our society, mine was just a feeling of
insecurity, The completion of that program was incredibly important to my
personal well being.
BUT..... I belong to a closely knit group of artists who meet weekly to
support each other..... half have degrees, half do not, half support
themselves with their art, half do not, we are all there for each other,
learning and teaching together, support is as important as education, but
the personal feeling of success, often comes from making yourself do what is
necessary for your own feeling of accomplishment.
Encourage your daughter to be happy, what ever that takes. My daughter
pushed herself from high school on, now she has a PhD, and she is both happy
and sucessful. But, she doesn't have a job!!!
Each person must find their own way, regardless of education.
Marty Yochum
pam easley on mon 14 dec 98
Joanne, sorry your daughter is having such a hard time with her "college
isn't worth it" feelings. I am a college grad, as is one of our 3 sons
and husband. I have not made of a profession of my fields of study (art
and journalism), but have to say I have benefited from my degree. I
think that piece of paper shows perserverence, if nothing else. We all
know people who have done fabulously professionally in areas they didn't
study in college -- it was that degree that may have given them entree
to the beginning of where they are now. Your daughter may very well not
realize the benefit of finishing school until well down the line, when
there's a chance for a promotion sometime, and the one with the college
degree gets it instead of her, "just because". I doubt that after that
first job, does anyone look at or care what your grade point was, where
you ranked in your class, or even where you went to school or what your
degree was in. It's just the fact that you did it. If you're an
entrepreneur -- who cares, anyway? But sounds like she's beating
herself up over a title at work. If she likes what she does, makes good
money for doing it, maybe it's something else that's really bothering
her. In lots of businesses, the title is just for the ego of the person
holding it, or the ego of the people in contact with her/him. Tell her
to buck up, think about finishing school to prove to herself that she
can ( or whatever works), and enjoy the wonderful successes she seeing
now. She's probably got another 60 or so years to live, and that's a
lot of time to figure things out ---
Good luck to you both.
Pam the Potter/Real estate lady/Teacher/Mom/Wife,etc.
Kelley Webb Randel on mon 14 dec 98
Hey All!
I would never try to presume what motivates others or their choices. I just
know college is the best thing that I've ever done; more work, frustrations,
anxiety, rewards, self-esteem. Much harder than any job I held. And I had to
be 35 when I started. It would have been a waste of time at 18. This is a
personal observation about ME, not anyone else in the list, world, etc.
I really felt for the young woman who was the subject starting this thread. .
.. I truly understood her hysteria. There is this mystical franticness about
finals that makes even the very strongest of us snap like a frozen twig on a
branch in an ice storm!
Have a very Merry!
Kelley Webb Randel
Rakugddss@aol.com
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