Chris Schafale on mon 25 jan 99
I've been following this thread with some interest. I started out
thinking, if these are community arts center students, so what if
they just want to play in the mud? Don't they have the right to just
take a clay class for fun, goof around, see what the clay wants to
do? I think we need to make clear distinctions about what kind of
classes we're talking about here. If you are referring to pottery
classes within a BFA program, or in any program where students are
getting college credit, then heck yes, make them work, make them
think, make them strive for excellence. But if it's "a community
center where the clay classes are considered recreation", don't you
think your students should get what they are paying for??
On the other hand, if you have individual students who seem to be
taking their work seriously, who come to the studio a lot between
classes, who show signs of wanting to take their work to another
level, then these are the folks that need your time and attention.
If you start working with the ones who really want to improve, then
the others may begin to get the idea and get interested. I have to
say here that I took my first clay classes at a community arts
center, with a teacher who is as nice as she can be and who was
great at helping people get started, but I got virtually no critical
feedback at all, even when I obviously wanted it and asked for it. I
then took an intermediate class at the local university crafts center
(non-credit class) and had the same experience -- I specifically
asked for a critique and some direction, and what I got was an
extremely vague, "nice work." I asked for help with what I saw as
problems in my work (e.g., heavy bottoms, warping rims), and got the
response that this teacher didn't think that was a problem. Like
Janet, I've felt that the lack of critical feedback has been a major
hindrance in the development of my work. I would *love* to have a
teacher who would help me look at the handles I make, or the feet or
whatever, and help me see how they could be better. To those who
teach in a community setting, I encourage you to keep looking for
those students who want what you obviously have to offer, and don't
waste your energy trying to move students who just want to play in
the mud because it feels good.
Chris
who used to be a psychotherapist and knows the futility of trying to
change people who don't want to change
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on tue 26 jan 99
Chris---
I agree with everything you say. No reason that anybody shouldn't just come and
fool around if they want to. It's just that in reality--no one in my classes
do. I take that back--one person did/does---and he comes just to socialize and
fool around and made it clear that he doesn't want anybody to critique him---so
I don't anymore. People in my class---all so-called advanced students--come to
the studio whenever they can, every time there is open studio time. They work
hard in between classes---so by your definition, they want to get better and
learn to make better pots. When I suggested a group critique to
them---everyone turned white and was horrified. So, I thought--that's not the
way to go! Here is the real issue. These people are not going to turn into
production potters--they are definitely hobby potters. BUT, they do sell their
pots. THAT's the problem. Why make more bad pots and sell more bad pots?
Because they are in this netherworld of selling functional ware/recreation/hobby
potting, it's hard to get them to get out of their ruts. I have a guy whose
been potting for years----is afraid of making handles!!! I've started them on
making things with lids that fit, because everything they make is either a bowl
or a vessel shape. In a credit class, you have to meet a standard for your
grade. In these classes, there is no incentive to change other than your own
desire to do so, and even students who want to change don't want to go through
the effort it takes to make the change---the incentive isn't powerful enough.
I do lots of one-on-one with these people, because I realized it was the only
way to break them of bad throwing habits. It works.
Maybe show-and-tell is the way to go.....I'll get them all to bring in a pot
they like and tell the class why they like it. And that is a non-threatening
way to have a group critique.
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schafale [SMTP:candle@nuteknet.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:14 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: aesthetics/moving students forward
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I've been following this thread with some interest. I started out
thinking, if
rts center students, so what if
they just want to play in the mud? Don't they have the right to just
take a clay class for fun, goof around, see what the clay wants to
do? I think we need to make clear distinctions about what kind of
classes we're talking about here. If you are referring to pottery
classes within a BFA program, or in any program where students are
getting college credit, then heck yes, make them work, make them
think, make them strive for excellence. But if it's "a community
center where the clay classes are considered recreation", don't you
think your students should get what they are paying for??
On the other hand, if you have individual students who seem to be
taking their work seriously, who come to the studio a lot between
classes, who show signs of wanting to take their work to another
level, then these are the folks that need your time and attention.
If you start working with the ones who really want to improve, then
the others may begin to get the idea and get interested. I have to
say here that I took my first clay classes at a community arts
center, with a teacher who is as nice as she can be and who was
great at helping people get started, but I got virtually no critical
feedback at all, even when I obviously wanted it and asked for it. I
then took an intermediate class at the local university crafts center
(non-credit class) and had the same experience -- I specifically
asked for a critique and some direction, and what I got was an
extremely vague, "nice work." I asked for help with what I saw as
problems in my work (e.g., heavy bottoms, warping rims), and got the
response that this teacher didn't think that was a problem. Like
Janet, I've felt that the lack of critical feedback has been a major
hindrance in the development of my work. I would *love* to have a
teacher who would help me look at the handles I make, or the feet or
whatever, and help me see how they could be better. To those who
teach in a community setting, I encourage you to keep looking for
those students who want what you obviously have to offer, and don't
waste your energy trying to move students who just want to play in
the mud because it feels good.
Chris
who used to be a psychotherapist and knows the futility of trying to
change people who don't want to change
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
Olivia T Cavy on thu 28 jan 99
Sandy,
Sandy,
Earlier this week I think it was you who posted a query about what was
manufacturing, in relation to making hundreds of identical ceramics
products. You should be aware that for states in the USA, manufacturing
is a technical/legal term, because there are a number of tax implications
to being a manufacturer or directly involved in the manufacturing
process. In each state there are many court cases defining exactly what
is and what is qualifies. Clearly one thing that qualifies as
manufacturing is when you irreversibly change the chemical state of a
product, as for example from soluble clay to a vitreous ceramic. Any
potter is a manufacturer whether making a zillion mugs or a unique
sculpture.
One general definition of manufacturing (from a court case in
Pennsylvania) is: "the application of labor and skill to materials
whereby the original article is changed into a new, different and useful
article."
For the most part, you want to be a manufacturer because you are
generally sales tax exempt on your purchases that are directly used to
manufacture items for sale. In some areas there are also energy tax
exemptions.
I think you were referring to a mass producer rather than a manufacturer
when you try to classify someone's clay work as being banal or pedestrian
or boring or just plain bad. I may like being a manufacturer for tax
purposes, but I wouldn't put it on my advertising or my business card!
;-)
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA in PA & CO
Pittsburgh, PA
work email: bdh@firstcaptl.com or oliviatcavy@juno.com
home email: mou10man@sgi.net
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:52:21 EST "Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI)"
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>Chris---
>I agree with everything you say. No reason that anybody shouldn't
>just come and
>fool around if they want to. It's just that in reality--no one in my
>classes
>do. I take that back--one person did/does---and he comes just to
>socialize and
>fool around and made it clear that he doesn't want anybody to critique
>him---so
>I don't anymore. People in my class---all so-called advanced
>students--come to
>the studio whenever they can, every time there is open studio time.
>They work
>hard in between classes---so by your definition, they want to get
>better and
>learn to make better pots. When I suggested a group critique to
>them---everyone turned white and was horrified. So, I thought--that's
>not the
>way to go! Here is the real issue. These people are not going to
>turn into
>production potters--they are definitely hobby potters. BUT, they do
>sell their
>pots. THAT's the problem. Why make more bad pots and sell more bad
>pots?
>Because they are in this netherworld of selling functional
>ware/recreation/hobby
>potting, it's hard to get them to get out of their ruts. I have a
>guy whose
>been potting for years----is afraid of making handles!!! I've
>started them on
>making things with lids that fit, because everything they make is
>either a bowl
>or a vessel shape. In a credit class, you have to meet a standard
>for your
>grade. In these classes, there is no incentive to change other than
>your own
>desire to do so, and even students who want to change don't want to go
>through
>the effort it takes to make the change---the incentive isn't powerful
>enough.
>
>I do lots of one-on-one with these people, because I realized it was
>the only
>way to break them of bad throwing habits. It works.
>
>Maybe show-and-tell is the way to go.....I'll get them all to bring in
>a pot
>they like and tell the class why they like it. And that is a
>non-threatening
>way to have a group critique.
>
>Sandy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Schafale [SMTP:candle@nuteknet.com]
>Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:14 PM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: aesthetics/moving students forward
>
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>I've been following this thread with some interest. I started out
>thinking, if
>
>
>
>rts center students, so what if
>they just want to play in the mud? Don't they have the right to just
>take a clay class for fun, goof around, see what the clay wants to
>do? I think we need to make clear distinctions about what kind of
>classes we're talking about here. If you are referring to pottery
>classes within a BFA program, or in any program where students are
>getting college credit, then heck yes, make them work, make them
>think, make them strive for excellence. But if it's "a community
>center where the clay classes are considered recreation", don't you
>think your students should get what they are paying for??
>
>On the other hand, if you have individual students who seem to be
>taking their work seriously, who come to the studio a lot between
>classes, who show signs of wanting to take their work to another
>level, then these are the folks that need your time and attention.
>If you start working with the ones who really want to improve, then
>the others may begin to get the idea and get interested. I have to
>say here that I took my first clay classes at a community arts
>center, with a teacher who is as nice as she can be and who was
>great at helping people get started, but I got virtually no critical
>feedback at all, even when I obviously wanted it and asked for it. I
>then took an intermediate class at the local university crafts center
>(non-credit class) and had the same experience -- I specifically
>asked for a critique and some direction, and what I got was an
>extremely vague, "nice work." I asked for help with what I saw as
>problems in my work (e.g., heavy bottoms, warping rims), and got the
>response that this teacher didn't think that was a problem. Like
>Janet, I've felt that the lack of critical feedback has been a major
>hindrance in the development of my work. I would *love* to have a
>teacher who would help me look at the handles I make, or the feet or
>whatever, and help me see how they could be better. To those who
>teach in a community setting, I encourage you to keep looking for
>those students who want what you obviously have to offer, and don't
>waste your energy trying to move students who just want to play in
>the mud because it feels good.
>
>Chris
>who used to be a psychotherapist and knows the futility of trying to
>change people who don't want to change
>
>
>Light One Candle Pottery
>Fuquay-Varina, NC
>candle@nuteknet.com
>
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