Marty Anderson on mon 25 jan 99
Ron, could you help me with this. One person or school will say manganese
(40-80 mesh) at approx 3-4=25 in a clay batch to make spots when fired is =
not
going to be harmful to the person throwing or building with this clay. I =
know
someone who has used this clay for nearly 20 years is she is still fit as a
fiddle. I have used it for 6 years. Could you give some insight on the
subject.
I have just read 2 articles in Digital Fire's website about 2 potters with
manganese poisioning. It was from fumes, not in the clay.
thanks,
marty
martya=40airmail.net
Ron Roy on thu 28 jan 99
Hi Marty,
The main way to get Manganese into your body is breathing the dust and the
fumes from firing it - that is my understanding. When they took the lead
out of gas they replaced it with Manganese - so there is more around than
there used to be - is it harmful - I would guess yes - but the questions
remain - how much do you have in you now and how much more can you tolerate
before irreversible nerve damage happens. I just don't know the answers to
these questions - and manganese is scary.
If the Manganese in your clay body is all granular (as opposed to fine
enough to get air born) then I would think the danger from breathing the
dust in your studio is minimal. I don't know what to say about the fumes
from firing except there are dangers from other things as well. Good kiln
and room ventilation are recommended even if there is no manganese is
present.
Finding out how much dust is associated with your suppliers manganese
should give you a better understanding - buy some and separate the dust
from the granules to get a % difference.
Your friend may be ventilating properly, they may be affected next year,
they may even be less susceptibly than you. Manganese levels in your body
are dependant on many factors - including how close you are to major hiways
now.
I would guess that if the material is nearly all granular, you practice
reasonable precautions - especially in regards to ventilation when firing -
I think it's ok. If I was firing in the basement and had hot air
circulation heating - I don't think I would unless I could determine what
the risk is.
I suppose it is possible that you can find out how much you already have -
I don't know how much you need to have some effect - perhaps others can
give a clue here - perhaps Elke knows what her levels were. I don't even
know what the warning signs are.
The short answer is - I don't know. What I do know is - the nerve damage is
irrepressible and debilitating.
RR
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Ron, could you help me with this. One person or school will say manganese
>(40-80 mesh) at approx 3-4% in a clay batch to make spots when fired is not
>going to be harmful to the person throwing or building with this clay. I know
>someone who has used this clay for nearly 20 years is she is still fit as a
>fiddle. I have used it for 6 years. Could you give some insight on the
>subject.
>
>I have just read 2 articles in Digital Fire's website about 2 potters with
>manganese poisioning. It was from fumes, not in the clay.
>
>thanks,
>
>marty
>martya@airmail.net
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough, Ontario
Canada M1G 3N8
Tel: 416-439-2621
Fax: 416-438-7849
Web page: http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
Edouard Bastarache on sun 3 sep 00
Allo Jeanne,
Manganese & inorganic compounds
Manganese compounds used by potters are inorganic , like manganese dioxid=
e,
oxide
and manganese carbonate; they do not penetrate the body via the skin as
compared to some organic compounds.
Metallic applications account for most manganese consumption, with about
90%
used in steelmaking.
Manganese is an essential mineral for humans and animals. It is necessary
for
normal bone formation. It has been estimated that a normal 70-kg man has =
a
total of 12mg to 20 mg in his body.
Inhalation of dust or fume is the major route of entry in occupational
manganese poisonning. Also inhaled large particles are ingested after
mucociliary clearance from the lungs.
Gastrointestinal absorption is generally low (10%). Very few poisonings h=
ave
occured after ingestion.
Tricarbonyls (organic) of manganese can be absorbed by the skin.
The primary target organs of manganese toxicity are the brain and the lun=
gs.
1-Neurological symptoms (chronic manganese poisoning) are caused by
inhalation of fumes or dusts of manganese. Exposure to heavy concentratio=
ns
of dusts or fumes for
as little as three months may produce the condition, but usually cases
develop after 1-3 years of exposure.
The symptoms may simulate progressive bulbar paralysis, postencephalitic
Parkinsonism, multiple sclerosis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and
progressive lenticular degeneration(Wilson's disease).
2-Toxicity (acute) to the lungs (inhalation) is manifested as increased
susceptibility to acute bronchitis or, in more severe cases, manganic
pneumonia.
According to Robert R. Lauwerys ( probably the best occupational
toxicologist in the world) in "Toxicologie Industrielle et Intoxications
Professionnelles, 1999", the best way to diagnose, at an early
stage, manganese intoxication is neurological examination.
A standardized questionnaire of neurological symptoms is helpful.
Here are the symptoms to be looked for in chronic manganese intoxication:
-nervousness
-irritability
-memory loss
-tiredness
-insomnia
-muscle weakness
-muscle pain
-trembling fingers
-stiffness of limbs
-difficulty with fine movements
-stuttering
-hoarse voice
-urinary problems
-impotence.
At physical examination your doctor should look for signs of an
extra-pyramidal syndrome at its beginning.
Workers exposed to manganese should have a medical examination
every 3 to 6 months (Shunk; Tanaka et Lieben).
Experts still differ about the precision of urinary and/or blood
measurements of manganese as good indicators of exposure
and intoxication .
Among workers kept away from their job on a temporary basis,
and from exposure to manganese dioxide, a good correlation was
observed between urinary and blood levels and the index of cumulative
exposure, on an individual basis(Lucchini and al.).
A correlation was also found between these tests and different
neurobehavioral tests.
But let us not forget that human data are insufficient yet for proposing =
a
a blood standard for manganese.
Tanaka & Lieben however observed a correlation between the urinary
excretion and the intensity of the exposure and japanese authors
suggested that manganese excretion higher than 40-50 micrograms/liter
corresponds to an exposure where lesions can occur (Horiuchi & al.) .
Best thing to do is to treat a patient not a lab test (an old saying in
medicine).
I have heard of 2 cases of Parkinson =96like syndrome among unskilled wor=
kers
making clays and glazes for a local pottery supplies store (Montreal) tha=
t
happened in the 70's and 80's before Quebec passed its laws in Occupation=
al
Health and Safety (I was personnally involved in this process).
The important thing is your exposure to inorganic manganese, it may vary=
if
you are a pottery factory worker, a teacher, a full-time studio potter or=
a
part-time. It certainly depends also on the amount used over a given peri=
od
of time in clays and glazes.
In the wet state, as in moist clays and glazes, these compounds are
certainly much less hazardous than as dust.Factories can afford the
monitoring of manganese exposure but it is not the same for artists and
craftpersons.
So good house keeping of your studio is important. Avoidance of processes
generating unnecessary dust is also important, and the wearing of an
approved dust mask when the exposure seems hazardous.
Edouard Bastarache M.D. ( Occupational & Environmental Medicine)
Author of =AB Substitutions for raw ceramic materials =BB
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
REFERENCES :
1-Occupational Medicine, Carl Zenz, last edition.
2-Occupational & Environmental Medicine, Joseph LaDou, last edition.
3-Chemical Hazards of the Workplace, Proctor & Hughes, last edition.
4-Industrial Chemical Exposure, Lauwerys & Hoet, last edition.
5-Toxicologie Industrielle et intoxications professionnelles, Lauwerys
Robert,R.1999
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Jeanne Stolberg
=C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date : 3 septembre, 2000 20:15
Objet : Manganese dioxide
>I've started a new project, making small pinch pots with a black clay -
>which is loaded with manganese dioxide. After reading some posts, I beca=
me
>aware that mang. diox. is not such a good thing.(Where have I been, liv=
ing
>in a cave? yeah, sort of) Could you tell me what precautions to take - d=
o I
>need to wear gloves when working with this stuff? And what does manganes=
e
>dioxide do to you?? Is is absorbed through skin, lungs, what?
>
>Excuse my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. It's been great =
to
>read the clayarter posts to keep current, and talk to other potters, ask
>questions, etc. Information filters up to here slowly (but now that's
>changed!) and there are few other potters here, we're all in the same bo=
at
>(island, actually).
>
>Thanks for info on this, and thanks for all your helpful answers to my
>previous questions!
>
>Jeanne,
>in Sitka Alaska, where the sun rarely shines, but oh when it does, it is
>gorgeous!
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Jeanne Stolberg on sun 3 sep 00
I've started a new project, making small pinch pots with a black clay -
which is loaded with manganese dioxide. After reading some posts, I became
aware that mang. diox. is not such a good thing.(Where have I been, living
in a cave? yeah, sort of) Could you tell me what precautions to take - do I
need to wear gloves when working with this stuff? And what does manganese
dioxide do to you?? Is is absorbed through skin, lungs, what?
Excuse my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. It's been great to
read the clayarter posts to keep current, and talk to other potters, ask
questions, etc. Information filters up to here slowly (but now that's
changed!) and there are few other potters here, we're all in the same boat
(island, actually).
Thanks for info on this, and thanks for all your helpful answers to my
previous questions!
Jeanne,
in Sitka Alaska, where the sun rarely shines, but oh when it does, it is
gorgeous!
Jeanne Stolberg on thu 7 sep 00
Ron, from what I've been reading over the last couple of days, it sounds
like shouldn't mess with the stuff. What also concerns me, is that my kiln
(electric & vented) is under the house where our house water supply also is,
about 20 feet away (a large swimming pool used as a cistern, collects
rainwater from the roof). We don't drink it, except out of one faucet that's
filtered, & use it for bathing, washing dishes, etc. Someday, I'd like to
get the kiln out of there, but need to build a shed for it. So the fume
thing scares me too.
Jeanne
Sitka, Alaska
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Roy
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: Manganese dioxide
> Hi Jeanne,
>
> Aside from the dust there is evidence that fumes from firing Manganese is
> an even greater danger.
>
> Remember - this stuff gets everywhere - in your hair, on your clothes
and -
> as dust - coats your studio and kiln room. This is particularly dangerous
> when you have hot air heating - it stays suspended in the air constantly.
>
> They now put it in gasoline so everyone has more than they used to.
>
> The damage done to your nervous system is permanent. I say don't use it.
>
> If you do - have your levels checked at least every year so you will know
> if there is a build up.
>
> RR
>
> >I've started a new project, making small pinch pots with a black clay -
> >which is loaded with manganese dioxide. After reading some posts, I
became
> >aware that mang. diox. is not such a good thing.(Where have I been,
living
> >in a cave? yeah, sort of) Could you tell me what precautions to take - do
I
> >need to wear gloves when working with this stuff? And what does manganese
> >dioxide do to you?? Is is absorbed through skin, lungs, what?
> >
> >Excuse my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. It's been great
to
> >read the clayarter posts to keep current, and talk to other potters, ask
> >questions, etc. Information filters up to here slowly (but now that's
> >changed!) and there are few other potters here, we're all in the same
boat
> >(island, actually).
> >
> >Thanks for info on this, and thanks for all your helpful answers to my
> >previous questions!
> >
> >Jeanne,
>
> Ron Roy
> 93 Pegasus Trail
> Scarborough
> Ontario, Canada
> M1G 3N8
> Evenings 416-439-2621
> Fax 416-438-7849
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Ron Roy on thu 7 sep 00
Hi Jeanne,
Aside from the dust there is evidence that fumes from firing Manganese is
an even greater danger.
Remember - this stuff gets everywhere - in your hair, on your clothes and -
as dust - coats your studio and kiln room. This is particularly dangerous
when you have hot air heating - it stays suspended in the air constantly.
They now put it in gasoline so everyone has more than they used to.
The damage done to your nervous system is permanent. I say don't use it.
If you do - have your levels checked at least every year so you will know
if there is a build up.
RR
>I've started a new project, making small pinch pots with a black clay -
>which is loaded with manganese dioxide. After reading some posts, I became
>aware that mang. diox. is not such a good thing.(Where have I been, living
>in a cave? yeah, sort of) Could you tell me what precautions to take - do I
>need to wear gloves when working with this stuff? And what does manganese
>dioxide do to you?? Is is absorbed through skin, lungs, what?
>
>Excuse my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. It's been great to
>read the clayarter posts to keep current, and talk to other potters, ask
>questions, etc. Information filters up to here slowly (but now that's
>changed!) and there are few other potters here, we're all in the same boat
>(island, actually).
>
>Thanks for info on this, and thanks for all your helpful answers to my
>previous questions!
>
>Jeanne,
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough
Ontario, Canada
M1G 3N8
Evenings 416-439-2621
Fax 416-438-7849
Edouard Bastarache on thu 7 sep 00
Hello all,
it is not manganese dioxide ( inorganic compound) that is used in gasolin=
e
but
an organic compound MMT which stands for:
"methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl".
In Canada it is added to all unleaded gasoline as an antiknocking agent
at a rate of up to o.o63 g.(as manganese) per gallon.
MMT may penetrate the skin.
It is certainly not used in the ceramics studio.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ron Roy
=C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date : 7 septembre, 2000 18:33
Objet : Re: Manganese dioxide
>Hi Jeanne,
>
>Aside from the dust there is evidence that fumes from firing Manganese i=
s
>an even greater danger.
>
>Remember - this stuff gets everywhere - in your hair, on your clothes an=
d -
>as dust - coats your studio and kiln room. This is particularly dangerou=
s
>when you have hot air heating - it stays suspended in the air constantly.
>
>They now put it in gasoline so everyone has more than they used to.
>
>The damage done to your nervous system is permanent. I say don't use it.
>
>If you do - have your levels checked at least every year so you will kno=
w
>if there is a build up.
>
>RR
>
>>I've started a new project, making small pinch pots with a black clay -
>>which is loaded with manganese dioxide. After reading some posts, I bec=
ame
>>aware that mang. diox. is not such a good thing.(Where have I been,
living
>>in a cave? yeah, sort of) Could you tell me what precautions to take - =
do
I
>>need to wear gloves when working with this stuff? And what does mangane=
se
>>dioxide do to you?? Is is absorbed through skin, lungs, what?
>>
>>Excuse my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. It's been great=
to
>>read the clayarter posts to keep current, and talk to other potters, as=
k
>>questions, etc. Information filters up to here slowly (but now that's
>>changed!) and there are few other potters here, we're all in the same b=
oat
>>(island, actually).
>>
>>Thanks for info on this, and thanks for all your helpful answers to my
>>previous questions!
>>
>>Jeanne,
>
>Ron Roy
>93 Pegasus Trail
>Scarborough
>Ontario, Canada
>M1G 3N8
>Evenings 416-439-2621
>Fax 416-438-7849
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Ron Roy on mon 11 sep 00
Hi Edouard,
The question is - is the stuff they put in the gasoline ending up in the
air we breath and is it adding to our individual load of manganese and does
the manganese from dioxide and the MMT - if breathed - have the same toxic
effect on humans when there is too much present?
RR.
>it is not manganese dioxide ( inorganic compound) that is used in gasoline
>butan organic compound MMT which stands for:
>"methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl".
>In Canada it is added to all unleaded gasoline as an antiknocking agent
>at a rate of up to o.o63 g.(as manganese) per gallon.
>MMT may penetrate the skin.
>It is certainly not used in the ceramics studio.
>Later, Edouard Bastarache
>>Hi Jeanne,
>>Aside from the dust there is evidence that fumes from firing Manganese is
>>an even greater danger.
>>Remember - this stuff gets everywhere - in your hair, on your clothes and -
>>as dust - coats your studio and kiln room. This is particularly dangerous
>>when you have hot air heating - it stays suspended in the air constantly.
>>They now put it in gasoline so everyone has more than they used to.
>>The damage done to your nervous system is permanent. I say don't use it.
>>If you do - have your levels checked at least every year so you will know
>>if there is a build up.
>>RR
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough
Ontario, Canada
M1G 3N8
Evenings 416-439-2621
Fax 416-438-7849
Edouard Bastarache on mon 11 sep 00
Allo Ron,
here is your answer.
Pay a special attention to the last sentence.
This research project was conducted in your area.
We know that combustion of manganese containing
fuels evolves primarily manganese oxides.
"TITLE: Manganese exposures in Toronto during use of the gasoline =
additive,
methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl [In Process Citation]
AUTHORS: Crump KS
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: ICF Consulting, Ruston, Louisiana 71270, USA.
kcrump@icfconsulting.com
SOURCE: J Expo Anal Environ Epidemiol 2000 May-Jun;10(3):227-39
[MEDLINE record in process]
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10910116 UI: 20365471
ABSTRACT: A year-long population-weighted study of personal exposures =
to
particulate matter (PM2.5) was conducted in Toronto while the
manganese-containing additive, methylcyclopentadienyl manganese =
tricarbonyl
(MMT), was present in gasoline at an average level of 11.9 mg Mn/l, =
which
was higher than the maximum of 8.3 mg Mn/l allowed in the U.S. In this
study, 925 three-day personal samples of PM2.5 (air concentration of =
aerosol
with an aerodynamic diameter of less than 2.5 microm) were collected, =
along
with a record of participants' occupations, personal habits, =
surroundings,
and activities during sampling. Stationary samples of PM2.5 were =
collected
indoors and outdoors at a subset of participants' homes over the same =
3-day
periods. Three-day samples of PM2.5 were also collected at fixed =
locations.
Personal exposures to PM2.5 were highly influenced by exposure to =
tobacco
smoke, and were poorly correlated with outdoor levels (Kendall's =
tau=3D0.13).
The mean concentration of PM2.5 in homes (21 microg/m3) was =
significantly
higher than the mean outdoor level (15 microg/m3). By contrast, the mean
PM2.5 Mn concentration (air concentration of Mn in PM2.5) was higher
outdoors (9.7 ng/m3) than indoors (5.5 ng/m3). Other than from tobacco
smoke, there were no indications of significant indoor sources of PM2.5 =
Mn
in homes. The most important predictor of exposure to PM2.5 was time =
spent
in the subway, and a high level (428 ng/m3) of PM2.5 Mn was measured in =
the
subway. The source of this Mn was hypothesized to be friction erosion of
subway rails. Small, but statistically significant correlations were =
present
between personal exposures to PM2.5 Mn and several traffic-related =
variables
(time spent in transit, in a motor vehicle, near a roadway with traffic, =
and
in a parking garage). However, in a stepwise regression that adjusted =
for
weather and personal activities, time in a motor vehicle was the only
traffic-related variable significantly associated with PM2.5 Mn, and it =
was
only the 10th most important personal activity variable in the final =
model.
Concentrations of PM2.5 Mn were higher at two fixed locations than =
outside
of participants' homes, which were likely further from high traffic =
areas
than the fixed sites. Likewise, outdoor and fixed site samples collected
during periods that included weekend days contained lower air =
concentrations
of Mn than samples collected during weekdays when traffic was heavier. =
On
the other hand, the monthly average concentration of Mn in gasoline was
negatively correlated with both outdoor and personal PM2.5 Mn, which
suggests that traffic-related sources of Mn other than MMT may be =
present.
After omitting participants with exposure to Mn from certain =
identifiable
non-MMT sources (subway riders, metal workers and persons exposed to =
tobacco
smoke), the average (median) personal exposure of the remaining 325
participants to PM2.5 Mn was reduced from 14 ng/m3 (8.5 ng/m3 ) to 8.3 =
ng/m3
(7.0 ng/m3). Potential sources of this residual Mn exposure include, in
addition to MMT, naturally occurring Mn in the earth's crust, other
occupational exposure, airborne release of Mn from industrial =
operations,
and friction erosion of Mn from steel-containing products. Taken =
together,
these facts (elimination of participants with Mn exposure from known =
non-MMT
sources reduced average exposures by 40%, the existence of multiple =
non-MMT
sources of the remaining Mn exposure, and the negative correlation =
between
MMT usage and PM2.5 Mn) suggest that the preponderance of personal Mn
exposure was from non-MMT sources".
This research project was conducted in a very large city where more
fuel is used as compared to country sites where often production potters
reside, these people are more prone to use larger amounts of manganese
compounds(inorganic) than hobbyists; so I do not think that manganese
oxides exposure from the combustion of MMT-treated fuels is a problem
for those who are more prone to be exposed to large amounts of =
"ceramics"=20
manganese compounds.
Let us stay away from the "panic button".
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
..
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on mon 11 sep 00
With all of the talk about dangers from manganese it might be helpful for
someone, possessing credible knowledge, to recommend the kind of test which
could be performed to indicate dangerous manganese levels in the body.
Kathi LeSueur
amy parker on tue 12 sep 00
Ron - somewhere in the archives there should be a post from me quoting a
Science News (I think) article on this topic, and the answer was "yes", as
I recall.
Amy
At 12:23 PM 9/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Edouard,
>
>The question is - is the stuff they put in the gasoline ending up in the
>air we breath and is it adding to our individual load of manganese and does
>the manganese from dioxide and the MMT - if breathed - have the same toxic
>effect on humans when there is too much present?
>RR.
Amy Parker
Lithonia, GA
Carolyn Nygren Curran on tue 12 sep 00
This comment has nothing to do with the current thread, really, but I found
it rather interesting. I was watching a program on the Bermuda Triangle
and other such things on History's Mysteries on the history channel. They
mentioned one ship which disappeared on the ocean, and some people wondered
if the "volatile" manganese ore in the cargo ate through the hull and
caused the calamity. Anyone care to comment on this bit of trivia? Non
essential, certainly, but it caught my attention because of the discussion
about manganese.
CNC back from two shows and back with clayart again....
Edouard Bastarache on tue 12 sep 00
Hello Kathy,
"With all of the talk about dangers from manganese it might be helpful for
someone, possessing credible knowledge, to recommend the kind of test which
could be performed to indicate dangerous manganese levels in the body.
Kathi LeSueur"
Measurement of elevated urine manganese levels or finding an increase
in urine manganese after a dose of calcium disodium edetate, a manganese
chelator, serve to confirm exposure.
Levels do not correlate with the degree of toxicity.
Blood levels are of no value.
So, please refer to my recent post on manganese dioxide to read what your
doctor should do.
90% of performing a medical diagnosis is listening to the patient, asking
questions
related to her/his problem and performing a good physical examination
with the usual tools we have in our office.
10% is lab testing.
As you may see in the case of manganese, lab testing is not the most
accurate thing to do.
Often in the case of manganese poisoning, the only clue to diagnosis is
a history of manganese exposure,
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
John Baymore on wed 13 sep 00
Ron - somewhere in the archives there should be a post from me quoting a
Science News (I think) article on this topic, and the answer was "yes", a=
s
I recall.
Amy
At 12:23 PM 9/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Edouard,
>
>The question is - is the stuff they put in the gasoline ending up in the=
>air we breath and is it adding to our individual load of manganese and
does
>the manganese from dioxide and the MMT - if breathed - have the same tox=
ic
>effect on humans when there is too much present?
>RR.
Hi Ron and Amy.
A short while ago here in NH this subject made all the local papers
headlines........ based on concerns about the substance in gasoline, the=
state had tested water from wells all over the state (the Mass border up =
to
the Canadian border) and found the stuff in every single sample. This is=
NH we are talking about here......... trees, mountains, cows, moose. =
Probably shows the magnitude of the impact of the automobile on our
environment pretty clearly...... their effects are widespread and
significant. Those truly worried about the impact of all the potters kil=
ns
in this country can probably rest assured it is a pretty insignificant
issue when compared to the lack of a good mass transit system .
So .... my guess is that the total body burden of manganese compounds is
probably being contributed to by the new fuel additive.
Best,
..........................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000"
Edouard Bastarache on wed 13 sep 00
Hello John,
I would like to know what was measured: MMT or manganese oxides?
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
A short while ago here in NH this subject made all the local papers
headlines........ based on concerns about the substance in gasoline, the
state had tested water from wells all over the state (the Mass border up to
the Canadian border) and found the stuff in every single sample. This is
NH we are talking about here......... trees, mountains, cows, moose.
Probably shows the magnitude of the impact of the automobile on our
environment pretty clearly...... their effects are widespread and
significant. Those truly worried about the impact of all the potters kilns
in this country can probably rest assured it is a pretty insignificant
issue when compared to the lack of a good mass transit system .
So .... my guess is that the total body burden of manganese compounds is
probably being contributed to by the new fuel additive.
Best,
..........................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000"
____________________________________________________________________________
__
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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John Baymore on fri 15 sep 00
I would like to know what was measured: MMT or manganese oxides?
Edouard,
I don't have any of the newspapers here to reference from (this was a whi=
le
back), so I cannot say anything definitively in answer to your question,
and I also was not privy to the exact testing procedures... so the
reporters may have quoted it wrong........ but what I got from the articl=
e
was that it was traces of the MMT they were testing for and finding.
Over the years I have had enough information I have given to reporters
about my pottery misquoted in amazing ways in the final print to
appreciate that the veracity of the exact article information in most any=
publication (maybe, at best, excluding peer review professional journals=
)
can always be questioned.
To differentiate naturally occuring Mn oxides in a water supply from that=
introduced through the contamination of some "alien" compound would be
pretty difficult if not impossible, I imagine . But just because
someone has a degree or whatever after his/her name doesn't make them
necessarily immune to making lapses in understanding.......... so in this=
case the state of NH folks could have been testing for the wrong thing (M=
n
oxides) and made some terriblly erroneous assumptions (that the Mn came
from the MMT). But I really don't think so in this case. Too widespread=
from too many sources.... unless they all got the info from ONE source an=
d
no one never checked any background.
My guess is the MMT is coming more from auto filler pipe overflows while
driving, spills from consumer gas cans, fueling of recreational vehicles=
like snowmobiles and pleasure boats, and particularly spills at automobil=
e
filling stations....than out the exhaust pipes.
Hope this information helps.
Best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000"
Edouard Bastarache on fri 15 sep 00
Allo John,
thanks for the info, I will keep am eye on the MMT ptroblem
on this side of the border we share.
Our federal govt. recently refused to ban MMT for insufficient
evidence.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : John Baymore
=C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date : 15 septembre, 2000 06:53
Objet : Manganese Dioxide
I would like to know what was measured: MMT or manganese oxides?
Edouard,
I don't have any of the newspapers here to reference from (this was a whi=
le
back), so I cannot say anything definitively in answer to your question,
and I also was not privy to the exact testing procedures... so the
reporters may have quoted it wrong........ but what I got from the articl=
e
was that it was traces of the MMT they were testing for and finding.
Over the years I have had enough information I have given to reporters
about my pottery misquoted in amazing ways in the final print to
appreciate that the veracity of the exact article information in most any
publication (maybe, at best, excluding peer review professional journals=
)
can always be questioned.
To differentiate naturally occuring Mn oxides in a water supply from that
introduced through the contamination of some "alien" compound would be
pretty difficult if not impossible, I imagine . But just because
someone has a degree or whatever after his/her name doesn't make them
necessarily immune to making lapses in understanding.......... so in this
case the state of NH folks could have been testing for the wrong thing (M=
n
oxides) and made some terriblly erroneous assumptions (that the Mn came
from the MMT). But I really don't think so in this case. Too widespread
from too many sources.... unless they all got the info from ONE source an=
d
no one never checked any background.
My guess is the MMT is coming more from auto filler pipe overflows while
driving, spills from consumer gas cans, fueling of recreational vehicles
like snowmobiles and pleasure boats, and particularly spills at automobil=
e
filling stations....than out the exhaust pipes.
Hope this information helps.
Best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 18-27,
2000"
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Elke Blodgett on fri 15 sep 00
Edouard, the Canadian Government did not refuse the use of MMT because of
insufficient evidence: they tried to ban it and and were forced by the
Free Trade Agreement with the US to use it; a hefty fine, in the millions
of dollars, was imposed if they refused to use it.
Elke Blodgett
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
> Allo John,
>
> thanks for the info, I will keep am eye on the MMT ptroblem
> on this side of the border we share.
> Our federal govt. recently refused to ban MMT for insufficient
> evidence.
>
>
> Later,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
Edouard Bastarache on fri 15 sep 00
Hello Elke,
I got this information on CBC News (french network)
some time during last year and it was said that it was
for insufficient evidence.
Maybe CBC was wrong or the politicians, who knows.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Elke Blodgett
=C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date : 15 septembre, 2000 21:19
Objet : Re: Manganese Dioxide
>Edouard, the Canadian Government did not refuse the use of MMT because o=
f
>insufficient evidence: they tried to ban it and and were forced by the
>Free Trade Agreement with the US to use it; a hefty fine, in the million=
s
>of dollars, was imposed if they refused to use it.
>Elke Blodgett
>
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
>
>> Allo John,
>>
>> thanks for the info, I will keep am eye on the MMT ptroblem
>> on this side of the border we share.
>> Our federal govt. recently refused to ban MMT for insufficient
>> evidence.
>>
>>
>> Later,
>>
>> Edouard Bastarache
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Elke Blodgett on sat 16 sep 00
Edouard, if you check the media releases (French or English) from the
time MMT was forced on=20
Canadians, you'll find there was a lot of grumbling about NAFTA forcing
one country to sell another country's products, all for the sake of profit
for Big Business, all under the name of Free Trade..to heck with the
possible health effects. elke
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
> Hello Elke,
>=20
> I got this information on CBC News (french network)
> some time during last year and it was said that it was
> for insufficient evidence.
> Maybe CBC was wrong or the politicians, who knows.
>=20
>=20
> Later,
>=20
> Edouard Bastarache
> Dans / In "La Belle Province"
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Elke Blodgett
> =C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date : 15 septembre, 2000 21:19
> Objet : Re: Manganese Dioxide
>=20
>=20
> >Edouard, the Canadian Government did not refuse the use of MMT because o=
f
> >insufficient evidence: they tried to ban it and and were forced by the
> >Free Trade Agreement with the US to use it; a hefty fine, in the million=
s
> >of dollars, was imposed if they refused to use it.
> >Elke Blodgett
> >
Edouard Bastarache on sat 16 sep 00
Elke,
even at 58 my nurses say I have an excellent memory, and even better than
theirs,
even if they are quite younger......(Hehehehe).
Jokingly, they say thay I am very far from suffering from Alzheimer's
disease.
I remember seeing this on Radio-Canada (french network) at suppertime
during last year. And I remember it more intensely because in the weeks
before the announcement, Monona had come very strongly against MMT on thi=
s
list seeming convinced it would be banned by governements, at least that =
is
what I gathered from her post.
To support what I believed I heard and saw on TV, read the last 2 abstrac=
ts
I send to this list recently, concerning studies conducted in Toronto and
Montreal.
My memory works even better "by association.
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Elke Blodgett
=C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date : 16 septembre, 2000 12:34
Objet : Re: Manganese Dioxide
Edouard, if you check the media releases (French or English) from the
time MMT was forced on
Canadians, you'll find there was a lot of grumbling about NAFTA forcing
one country to sell another country's products, all for the sake of profi=
t
for Big Business, all under the name of Free Trade..to heck with the
possible health effects. elke
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
> Hello Elke,
>
> I got this information on CBC News (french network)
> some time during last year and it was said that it was
> for insufficient evidence.
> Maybe CBC was wrong or the politicians, who knows.
>
>
> Later,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Dans / In "La Belle Province"
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Elke Blodgett
> =C0 : CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date : 15 septembre, 2000 21:19
> Objet : Re: Manganese Dioxide
>
>
> >Edouard, the Canadian Government did not refuse the use of MMT because=
of
> >insufficient evidence: they tried to ban it and and were forced by the
> >Free Trade Agreement with the US to use it; a hefty fine, in the milli=
ons
> >of dollars, was imposed if they refused to use it.
> >Elke Blodgett
> >
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Gavin Stairs on sat 16 sep 00
You're both right, of course. The problem is the reverse onus of the new
law, which requires us to accept unless we can prove that it is
harmful. Ie., have the evidence of harm to defend ourselves before the
tribunal. So, while we have insufficient evidence, things like MMT can be
forced on us against out better judgement. This is the wonderful fruit of
the corporatist new world order we are building. Love it or... well, we
can't very well leave it now can we?
Kind of like everybody being forced to smoke cigarettes, or something.
Gavin
At 10:23 AM 9/16/00, Elke Blodgett wrote:
>Edouard, if you check the media releases (French or English) from the
>time MMT was forced on
>Canadians, you'll find there was a lot of grumbling about NAFTA forcing
>one country to sell another country's products, all for the sake of profit
>for Big Business, all under the name of Free Trade..to heck with the
>possible health effects. elke
>
>
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Edouard Bastarache wrote:
>
> > Hello Elke,
> >
> > I got this information on CBC News (french network)
> > some time during last year and it was said that it was
> > for insufficient evidence.
> > Maybe CBC was wrong or the politicians, who knows.
Ron Roy on sun 24 sep 00
So the world is upside down again - we have to get sick with it before it
can be regulated.
My original point was - there is more around than there ever was so if you
are using it - breathing the dust or fumes from firing - just remember -
irreversable nerve damage is a possibility - and no cure to boot.
This particular situation is all the more insidious because it's difficult
for most doctors to diagnose - especially if they are not aware of your
exposure. By the time you show symptoms it's probably too late anyway.
I do think you can work with Manganese but good ventilation is essential
during mixing and firing. I have not yet seen the studio I would use it in.
RR
>You're both right, of course. The problem is the reverse onus of the new
>law, which requires us to accept unless we can prove that it is
>harmful. Ie., have the evidence of harm to defend ourselves before the
>tribunal. So, while we have insufficient evidence, things like MMT can be
>forced on us against out better judgement. This is the wonderful fruit of
>the corporatist new world order we are building. Love it or... well, we
>can't very well leave it now can we?
>
>Kind of like everybody being forced to smoke cigarettes, or something.
>
>Gavin
Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough
Ontario, Canada
M1G 3N8
Evenings 416-439-2621
Fax 416-438-7849
Brenda Beeley on tue 14 nov 00
Studio Potter magazine ran an article about David Shaner,
> > I am not sure how long ago, but within the last six months.
> > Great article.
Could someone send me a copy of the article from Studio Potter? I have a
potter friend dealing with neurological problems and I am trying to help
him figure it out.
Thanks,
Brenda Beeley
P.O. Box 1339
Suquamish, WA 98392-1339
(360) 598-3688
email: mtimes@telebyte.net
Jean Silverman on wed 15 nov 00
Brenda (and others),
The Shaner article is in "Studio Potter" vol. 28, no.1, from Dec. 1999.
It's also available as a separate monograph. gorgeous photos of gorgeous
pots as well as the interview with Dave Shaner. You can get it direct from
Studio Potter at P.O. Box 70, Goffstown NH 03045 or call 603-774-3582.
Jean
> Studio Potter magazine ran an article about David Shaner,
> > > I am not sure how long ago, but within the last six months.
> > > Great article.
>
>Could someone send me a copy of the article from Studio Potter? I have a
>potter friend dealing with neurological problems and I am trying to help
>him figure it out.
>
Jean Silverman
Studio Potter Network
Newmarket NH
jeansil@nh.ultranet.com
Charles Moore on mon 14 oct 02
Dear Claybuds,
Here I am sounding dumb again (not such an unusual circumstance):
I know that Manganese Dioxide is toxic, but I am not sure at which point =
it is toxic: mixing, firing, utilitarian using? Are all three bad?
I checked Hamer & Hamer, John Conrad, and Vince Pitelka's books, but =
don't find the answer.
I would like to try on of Michael Baliley's "Cone 6 Glazes" that uses =
Manganese (semi-matt), but want to be sure that I am not poisoning =
anyone (including myself).
Help please.
Charles=20
Still in Sacramento
Chris Schafale on tue 15 oct 02
Charles,
My understanding is that the problem with Manganese is the fumes
generated during firing. The main route of toxicity is inhalation of
fumes. I still wouldn't put an oversaturated (metallic-looking)
manganese glaze on a functional surface, but the main thing you
have to worry about is your own health if you are anywhere near it
when it is firing.
Chris
Date sent: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:38:11 -0700
Send reply to: Charles Moore
From: Charles Moore
Subject: Manganese dioxide
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Dear Claybuds,
>
> Here I am sounding dumb again (not such an unusual circumstance):
>
> I know that Manganese Dioxide is toxic, but I am not sure at which point it is toxic: mixing, firing, utilitarian using? Are all three bad?
>
> I checked Hamer & Hamer, John Conrad, and Vince Pitelka's books, but don't find the answer.
>
> I would like to try on of Michael Baliley's "Cone 6 Glazes" that uses Manganese (semi-matt), but want to be sure that I am not poisoning anyone (including myself).
>
> Help please.
>
> Charles
> Still in Sacramento
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina, USA
(south of Raleigh)
candle@intrex.net
http://www.lightonecandle.com
Ron Roy on fri 18 oct 02
Manganese can be a problem when inhaled - dust or fumes. It is now added to
gasoline instead of lead so we all have more of it in us than we used to
have.
It is not a problem when ingested as understand it.
I don't think an occasional exposure is that serious - it all depends how
much you have inside you I suppose - perhaps how close you live to heavy
traffic. I will not use it in my studio but if I did I would want to know
where it was at all times.
Monona Rossol has a description of what manganese poisoning symptoms are in
her book The Artist's Complete healh and Safety Guide.
RR
>Dear Claybuds,
>Here I am sounding dumb again (not such an unusual circumstance):
>I know that Manganese Dioxide is toxic, but I am not sure at which point
>it is toxic: mixing, firing, utilitarian using? Are all three bad?
>I checked Hamer & Hamer, John Conrad, and Vince Pitelka's books, but don't
>find the answer.
>I would like to try on of Michael Baliley's "Cone 6 Glazes" that uses
>Manganese (semi-matt), but want to be sure that I am not poisoning anyone
>(including myself).
>Help please.
>Charles
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Paul Herman on sat 13 aug 05
Bill,
Where did you get this information?
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
http://www.greatbasinpottery.com/
----------
>From: William & Susan Schran
> Emergency warning on MSDS for manganese dioxide:
> "DANGER! OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE FIRE. HARMFUL IF
> SWALLOWED OR INHALED. AFFECTS LUNGS, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, BLOOD AND
> KIDNEYS. MAY CAUSE IRRITATION TO EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT."
>
> If one uses reasonable precautions - respirator, eye protection, perhaps
> gloves when weighing material/using dry, then it shouldn't be a problem.
>
> Fumes from firing are perhaps more of an issue.
>
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
Vince Pitelka on sat 13 aug 05
> If one uses reasonable precautions - respirator, eye protection, perhaps
> gloves when weighing material/using dry, then it shouldn't be a problem.
> Fumes from firing are perhaps more of an issue.
Bill -
Fumes from firing are the primary issue with ceramic-grade maganese dioxide.
Of course you are right that one should wear a respirator and eye protection
when weighing out and mixing this material, but that is true of all ceramic
materials. One should never breath any dust from ceramic materials.
Unless one has open wounds, skin contact is not a problem with manganese
dioxide - there is no danger from skin absorption.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Beth Hamilton on sat 13 aug 05
Isn't manganese dioxide toxic? I understood that it was and yet while cruising through EBAY there is a listing for a pound of manganese dioxide at 4.99/lb touted as non toxic and safe. I have no idea who is selling it but it does bother me that misinformation may cause harm and negative chatter about potters, pottery etc. Am I wrong?
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Louis Katz on sat 13 aug 05
Yes it is toxic, at least in some sense of the word. What do you mean
by this word? Water is toxic. So is everything. Unless this word is
really defined deciding if Manganese dioxide is toxic or not is a real
problem. Its not posionous enough for everyone to say, "well sure its
toxic".
I would look at the stuff on manganese by our own Edouard and see if he
says TOXIC or not. MOre importantly Toxic in what way, and under what
circustances.
Louis
On Aug 13, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Beth Hamilton wrote:
> Isn't manganese dioxide toxic? I understood that it was and yet while
> cruising through EBAY there is a listing for a pound of manganese
> dioxide at 4.99/lb touted as non toxic and safe. I have no idea who
> is selling it but it does bother me that misinformation may cause harm
> and negative chatter about potters, pottery etc. Am I wrong?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
WIKI site http://www.tamucc.edu/wiki/Katz/HomePage
William & Susan Schran User on sat 13 aug 05
On 8/13/05 6:39 PM, "Beth Hamilton" wrote:
> Isn't manganese dioxide toxic?
Emergency warning on MSDS for manganese dioxide:
"DANGER! OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE FIRE. HARMFUL IF
SWALLOWED OR INHALED. AFFECTS LUNGS, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, BLOOD AND
KIDNEYS. MAY CAUSE IRRITATION TO EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT."
If one uses reasonable precautions - respirator, eye protection, perhaps
gloves when weighing material/using dry, then it shouldn't be a problem.
Fumes from firing are perhaps more of an issue.
--
William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
William & Susan Schran User on sun 14 aug 05
On 8/13/05 11:10 PM, "Paul Herman" wrote:
> Where did you get this information?
From this web site doing a Google on "msds manganese dioxide"
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m0715.htm
--
William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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