mel jacobson on thu 4 feb 99
there are almost no fuel fired kilns in japan.
and they still make pots that would
make you jealous.
really jealous.
i wonder how they do it? could it be they understand clay and glaze?
mel/mn
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
minnetonka, minnesota/ u.s.a.
Ken Chin-Purcell on fri 5 feb 99
Thus Spake Mel:
there are almost no fuel fired kilns in japan.
and they still make pots that would
make you jealous.
really jealous.
Short of going there, what are some good resources for seeing
modern Japanese electric fired ceramics? Are there any good
web sites?
Most of my exposure has been either to catalogs of older pots or
wood fired / ash encrusted tea ware...
--- Ken Chin-Purcell
.... in Saint Paul, where yesterday it was 40+, this morning 5 deg F.
Dave Eickholt on fri 5 feb 99
I've read that the kiln elements are a very heavy weight gauge, much more so
than any of the elements we use in our USA kilns and can take the reduction in
the kiln with no adverse effects [in other words they build them to last}
hope this answers your question. Dave
Wesley C. Rolley on fri 5 feb 99
>there are almost no fuel fired kilns in japan.
>and they still make pots that would
>make you jealous.
>really jealous.
>i wonder how they do it? could it be they understand clay and glaze?
Mel, I completely agree with your last question. However, your initial
statement can be somewhat misleading. In my last visit to Japan I was luck
enough to be in Imbe at the time of the annual Bizen ceramics fair. I do
not think that all of the smoke was coming from cooking fires on a day that
was 30 deg C. and humid. I did observe that the potters I visited in
Kanazawa made their Kutani-yaki in electric kilns, adding some pine wood at
the later stages of firing for reduction.
Wes Rolley
Reflections Publishing, Inc.
http://www.refpub.com/
Linda Blossom on fri 5 feb 99
Peter King's wife, Xinia Marin, is only able to fire electric at the
university in Costa Rica. According to Pete, who fires with gas, she has
developed many wonderful glazes that someone might think could only be
gotten from a fuel firing. I have some glazes that would burn and look
pretty dreadful in my gas kiln but in the electric, they sing out loud.
Linda Blossom
2366 Slaterville Rd
Ithaca, NY 14850
607-539-7912
blossom@twcny.rr.com
there are almost no fuel fired kilns in japan.
and they still make pots that would
make you jealous.
really jealous.
i wonder how they do it? could it be they understand clay and glaze?
mel/mn
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
minnetonka, minnesota/ u.s.a.
mel jacobson on tue 27 apr 99
a big thank you to the kiln companies that have responded to the
discussion of electric kilns and standards.
it does point out that many people monitor clayart........and that is
a great thing.
as many of you know, i travel around some.......see a great deal.
talk to many potters.
the one thing that is very disturbing to me about many people doing
pottery is.........cheapness.
they do not look at what they do as being important.
if you approach your craft, hobby, avocation as important.......you
would spend some money on quality tools.
does a mechanic buy his tools from k-mart, made in china?
no, snap-on.
i have used the same analogy about language.........if you are going to
the studio to `play`, have fun..mess about`, how do people
take you seriously. you go to the studio to work, do research, create...
ask the vendors.......potters talk about kilns based on one thing..`price and
good deals.`
if you were starting a brand new studio today.......you should be looking
at the best kiln money can buy....that is always the first consideration.
not wheels. kilns.......that is the life blood of a potter. if you have a
good
kiln, good pots often follow, then good sales follow that.
i think i am correct, when i say that josiah wedgwood became famous
in england, because he took a chance on a young kiln builder that got
several hundred more degrees out of his new kiln than the other folks
on `stoke on trent`.........and he got his new `blues` from that kiln.
i am sure that any one of the kiln manufacturers would build a high
tech, well insulated, well wired kiln......if the folks would buy it.
but, i also think that they would gather moss in the show room...waiting
for one potter to buy one.
if you are going to make that next step forward, get out of the basement.
or, you will be there forever....gag, cough, snort.
mel/mn
`self respect is the starting point of great craft.` mj1999
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Chuck Nunnelly on wed 28 apr 99
In a message dated 4/27/99 10:30:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
melpots@pclink.com writes:
<< i am sure that any one of the kiln manufacturers would build a high
tech, well insulated, well wired kiln......if the folks would buy it.
but, i also think that they would gather moss in the show room...waiting
for one potter to buy one. >>
I think it all comes to cost, the well wired and well insulated will
increase initial cost and what are the savings. Here in VA we pay approx.
7.5 cents kWh, so given the typical 7 cu. ft. hobby kiln uses approx. 10,500
watts, a 10 hour fire will cost $7.88. (That's figure is high as you do not
run the kiln on high for the whole time)
The hard part is what will increased insulation save? 10%, 20%, 30% and how
many times do you fire per year. My estimate has been 12 times a year so a
30% increase in efficiency will save me (7.88 x .3 x 12) $28.36 a year, even
a one firing a week the savings is $123. This increased insulation better be
inexpensive for my payback time to be small. The same calculation would be
made on the replacement of electrical parts vs. the better wiring.
I guess my point is, as someone who won't fire a lot the added cost of the
insulation will never pay for itself.
Open-minded my opinions change with knowledge.
Chuck Nunnelly
John Baymore on thu 29 apr 99
------------------
(clip)
ask the vendors.......potters talk about kilns based on one thing..=60price
and
good deals.=60
if you were starting a brand new studio today.......you should be looking
at the best kiln money can buy....that is always the first consideration.
not wheels. kilns.......that is the life blood of a potter. if you have a
good
kiln, good pots often follow, then good sales follow that.
(snip)
I can't reinforce this GREAT thought from Mel enough. (or should I type
......... mel) (Mel-san....ichibanme, ne'.)
A cheap tool is just that. A cheap tool. You get what you pay for. And
the kiln is the limiting factor and process flow constriction to the entire
studio operation.
As many of you know, I build kilns for people upon occasion. I don't build
the cheapest kilns and I pride myself on that. Materials selection and
construction is done with performance and longevity in mind. Put a 2300F
rating brick where a 2800F should be and you have planned obsolescence
(sp?). Put a hardbrick where an IFB should be, and you store heat in
refractories that you didn't have to. Make the kiln the wrong size and you
screw up everything in studio operations. And so on.
The right material, in the right place, constructed the right way. Simple.
Everything you make has to flow through your kiln. It makes or breaks the
final work (no pun intended =3Cg=3E). It also dictates things like maximum
ware sizes, turnaround time, firing efficiency, firing labor costs,
necessary ware storage space size, and many other crucial variables of
studio life.
Kilns deserve more thought than they are typically given, I think. This is
not a place to cut corners or rush through in making decisions.
That Japanese saying I mentioned before a while ago comes to mind again
here: =22Fire first, clay second, form third.=22
BTW.....mel........ I'd like to order about a dozen of those cone breakers
=3Cg=3E.
Best,
..........................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40Compuserve.com
Barney Adams on sat 1 may 99
Hi,
I sure could see the advantage of having the kiln's controller connected via
ethernet, USB or maybe Firewire to my computer so I could not only monitor
but log each firing from one central location.
Barney
Jeff Brett wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have read with interest the discussion of underinsulated electric kilns.
> I haven't seen anyone mention ConeArt kilns as an alternative to the
> standard 2.5" walled kilns.
>
> I have owned a ConeArt kiln for years. In my experience, the added
> insulation in ConeArt kilns allows for a substantial savings in firing
> costs. I can bisque to cone 06 in my kiln with dial settings at medium in
> 10-12 hours. They cool more slowly and with small children around I like
> the added piece of mind that no matter how curious they are about Dad's
> kiln the outside stays reasonable cool except during a very long firing
> (crystalling glazes).
>
> ConeArt kilns have always been a more expensive kiln. But, they are durable
> (i've never replaced elements in mine in 10 plus years), thoughtfully
> designed and extremely well built. No, I don't work for ConeArt. I'm just a
> real fan of their kilns.
>
> ...Jeff
>
> ____________________________________
> Jeff Brett
> Lab Assistant - Fine Arts, North Island College
> 2300 Ryan Road, Courtenay, BC, Canada, V9N 8N6
> Phone: (250)334-5055
> Fax: (250)334-5018
> E-mail: brett@nic.bc.ca
> Web Site: http://www.nic.bc.ca
John Baymore on sat 1 may 99
------------------
(snip)
............I think it all comes to cost, the well wired and well
insulated will increase initial cost and what are the savings. ..........
(clip)
This response kind of goes along with mel's theory.......... potters first
look at the cost, and they tend to not go far beyond that issue. That is
not to belittle the cost factor......... if you can't afford it, you can't
afford it. There's this Lotus car that I ................... .... .... ..
. . =3Cg=3E
(snip)
The hard part is what will increased insulation save?
(clip)
What will it save? It will save unrenewable fossil fuel resources from
being depleted to fire an underinsulated kiln. It will save a lot of CO2
being produced and put into the atmosphere needlessly, or a bunch of
nuclear waste from being produced that we have no idea of how to dispose
of. These are real concerns for us all. And particularly our kids, and
their kids.
Oh yeah......and you directly will save about =2428 a year. =3Cg=3E So if =
the
tiny bit more efficient kiln cost about =24200 more to buy up front, you'd =
be
at about a break even in 8 years, and the planet would be way ahead. Not a
bad deal really.
Just because the CHARGES for electricity are cheap where YOU are, doesn't
make the environmental cost any less than the impact anywhere electricity
is generated. The figure you pay is a poor indicator of the REAL cost of
electricity.
(BTW..... here on Public Service of NH, the charge is 27.9 cents per KWH
for the first 250 KWH, and 38.9 cents for anything over that (that I have
ever consumed). I am told we are the highest electric rates in the
country. Food for thought. )
Many potters utilize this type of =22hobby=22 kiln to fire three times per
week....... in/out/in/out/in/out. Repetitive heavy production. Sometimes
BANKS of these kilns (see the ads in CM sometimes). This is not what these
kilns are really designed for. Or if it is what they think is
appropriate.....shame on the manufacturers=21
In this application the out-of-pocket payback would be a little shorter.
At 3 firings a week at your low rate, the savings in direct energy costs
would be more like =24360 a year in energy cost savings. That would make a
=24360 increase in price for such a =2230 percent better=22 kiln with a =
minimum
life expectancy of ........let's use the federal depreciation figure
here....7 years...........a no-brainer for such a person. That would be a
600 percent ROI in the 7 years. Good investment. In many parts of the
country / world, this payback would be MUCH larger.
So for you, maybe a hobby kiln is a better investment, environmental issues
aside. But for a more prolific potter, there should be an easy option for
other better insulated and constructed kilns available. It is important
to note that equipment desisions should be made in light of very specific
personal considerations. One size does NOT fit all, and it is often more
significant than just some sort of =22personal preference=22.
(When I was in Japan, I was AMAZED at the number and various types of kilns
available in all sorts of configurations, sizes, fuels, and so on from
multiple manufacturers. There truly were options to really suit all
possible needs readily available. Ditto for most anything related to
pottery)
More industrial electric kilns are available..........and the hobby type
are readily available.... but not much in between. That is where an
un-filled market niche lies, I think, for those manufacturer types
monitoring these posts. The =22not-ready-for industrial-time=22 kiln you =
might
call it =3Cg=3E. I do only fuel-fired kiln design and installation......but=
I
consult with plenty of people with whom I discuss electric kilns. If there
were some better options in the =22middle zone=22 I'd be pushing them.
Better design for maintenence will save you your time. Your TIME is
valuable. There ain't any extra being made =3Cg=3E. (This is the same =
issue
that involves the double cones.)
In a time when a plumber charges =2470 an hour, a carpenter charges =2435 an
hour, and minimum wage is =245.50 + going up, your time has to be worth a
lot. If a job that could be done if the unit were designed for servicing
in an hour, and because of poor design it takes three....... that costs you
at least =2450 more (=2425/hr.) each time you have to do it. Better design =
can
also save you in frequency of maintenence.
Better insulation will also contribute to slower cooling cycles. As I
mentioned in another recent post.... this has more to do with the
difference in =22look=22 between gas fire pots and electric fired pots than =
the
oxidation vs. reduction issue. Slow cooling and microcrystaline
development. Great for many glaze types. Fire your thin walled, low
theremal massed electric DOWN and see (of course if you have to do that you
are consuming MORE electricity). So that additional insulation can make
better pots....and your prices can go up....and you'll sell more..... and
the seconds go down.... and on, and on, and on.
If you add all this up, the cheapest kiln MAY BE the most expensive to buy.
Which brings us right back to mel's point. I love circular logic =3Cg=3E.
Best,
..................john
=22Where we have this lovely Seabrook nuclear power plant built almost
directly on an earthquake fault....... but that is another story =3Cwg=3E.)
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40Compuserve.com
mel jacobson on thu 14 dec 00
without question, electric kilns need constant attention.
there seems to be a legend out there that all you have
to do is set the computer, timer or whatever,and it is automatic.
attention to detail.
tight, clean connections are critical.
keeping the kiln clean...use a vacuum once in awhile.
inspection. itc the damn thing.
if you are running long on time, of course, something is loose.
it just makes sense....if you fire in 8 hours, then you go to
14...a coil is out.
fix it...now.
learn your kiln...
unplug it...take the box off.
inspect everything.
put colored labels on each wire...red, green, yellow...know where
they go. it you are a real smarty pants, solder the wires in place.
make a tester from an throw away set of christmas lights.
make a schematic with colored pencils....
it is your job. take care of things.
it is like owning a 72 m g..(britain)
you repair it every sunday. drive 50 miles...fix the m g .
how many people have read the skutt manual -cover to cover?
how many of you out there have read your owners manual for
your 30,000 dollar car?
not many.
do it...you learn all kinds of things.
repair, maintenance and care are the base of being a potter.
we are independent suckers, and must take hold of these issues.
do it.
then you will be an expert.
mel
when things change, do something. don't keep doing the
broken way...it does not fix itself.
my gas kiln is stalling...so, just keep firing...god, how dumb.
do something...increase gas, decrease gas, open the flu, close
the flu...but, god, do something.
`mel, i fired my kiln 83 times, and it always stalls at cone 8. what
should i do?` god, 83 times...and did not change a thing.
that is the cause of global warming. 83 firings and each was
22 hours. pots never got the gas...the air did.
FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
rickmahaffey on fri 15 dec 00
I second Mel's post.
Often the element is not the problem. We have had several incidents
where the connection between the element and the feed wire is burned in
two. Same result as the element being broken, except that this one is
easily repaired.
Buy insulated wire that connects the supply with the elements and also
buy some high temperature connectors. Also buy a real good crimping
tool since the connectors are very hard. If you are real flush (have
the money) buy one of each kind of element (some kilns have different
elements in the top and bottom rings) that your kiln uses. Having
these things can keep you on schedule as they always burn out at the
wrong time.
Keep a kiln log book even if you have a computer control so that you can
note the length of the firing that it will show when it is done. THat
way you can tell when the elements are getting tired and need replacing.
Rick Mahaffey
Tacoma, Community College
Tacoma, Washington, USA
Pat Southwood on sun 9 feb 03
Hi,
I fire electric, due to not having any gas supply. Despite living a mere =
9 miles away from the Bacton Gas Terminal and only 1hr and 50 mins from =
London. Which century are the rest of you in?
Dont suggest lpg, I'm too much of a wus.
I like reduction for stoneware, celadons etc. There is always silicon =
carbide though, and saggars.
In all honesty,I really couldnt be bothered with a wood kiln. There, =
I've said it, someone had to. - Just ducking now. ;)
It always comes across as a bit of a man-thing too. IMHO.
How many women woodfire if they dont have to?=20
I cant think of that many, offhand.
A friend in Japan has hired a. climbing kiln and suggested that I send =
a couple of bisqued pieces for the firing. I am tempted, Not sure if =
they would get there in one piece.
I was lucky enough to be able to go to Mashiko a couple of years ago. =
After I had spent an afternoon pot shopping I showed a young Aussy =
potter, training in Mashiko, what I had bought. What I had fondly =
thought to be lovingly thrown, fired with potters with their eyes =
propped open with matchsticks, was instantly dismissed as being from =
this "factory or that "factory. Oh well. I bought them because I liked =
them, so that is plenty.
Interestingly I was taken into the Japanese equivalent of Poundland, in =
Tokyo, called the 100 yen store (it was about 70p at the time) I bought =
4 ricebowls that were slipcast, but they were cast to look hand thrown!! =
Really strong throwing rings etc. Would that big w could at least be so =
enlightened.......
Pat.
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 9 feb 03
I participated twice in an anagama firing. The pieces that came out
were real stunners, and I learned alot. One of the things I learned
is that I don't want to tend a kiln for 5 days. =20
The other thing I learned is that, although the pots were lovely, they
aren't really "my" work. =20
All part of the learning process.......
....Lo
(who hopes to take a salt firing workshop this summer, just for the
hell of it, and a book arts workshop, because it has nothing to do
with clay and everything to do with self expression)
--------------------------------------------
=46ine Craft Porcelain - New and Updated for 2003!!
http://www.loisaronow.com=20
Russel Fouts on mon 10 feb 03
Lois
>> I participated twice in an anagama firing. The pieces that came out were real stunners, and I learned alot. One of the things I learned is that I don't want to tend a kiln for 5 days. <<
We fired with wood in school, it's a lot of work. Especially if you are
on your own. We were lucky that we got kiln dried wood cut into lathe
from a door factory, we arranged the truck, they loaded it and we
unloaded it, then we cut it to length. A lot of work and you haven't
even fired a pot yet!
I've helped on a lot of wood firings, that's a lot of fun but I don't
think I would do it if I were on my own. If I did, a boury box like
Merries and Tony's would be the way to go. Stoke, return to your chair,
sip your martini, read your book, 15-20 minutes later, put another log
on the fire.
I never fired electric until I started making pots in Belgium, live in
the center of Brussels, got my 120 litre electric, never looked back,
broke "rules", didn't listen to anyone's "you shouldn't do that in an
electric kiln" (I do have a good vent though), I think I make nice pots.
Have a look: http://www.mypots.com
Now I'm starting to experiment with maiolica, still not listening.
Terra-sig over maiolica? Hmmmm, why not? Hey COOL!
Russel
--
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
Home of "The Potters Portal"
Over 1800 Pottery Links!
Updated frequently
"Is the Hokey Pokey really what it's all about?"
mel jacobson on wed 3 dec 03
if you are going to be a potter, if you are
going to have an electric kiln.
LEARN ALL YOU CAN ABOUT IT. READ, AND THEN
READ SOME MORE. TAKE IT APART. LEARN WHAT MAKES
IT TICK....DO NOT LIVE IN FEAR.
it is like owning a car and never reading the owners manual.
stupid.
you are metaphorically attached to your kiln. it is like
your life blood.
you become a victim if you do not have knowledge.
of course, some folks just love playing the victim.
not a quality thing for a potter to do.
yes, i know, i am fiercely independent.
but, so should you be, if you call yourself an artist/potter.
it goes with the territory. it is one of the prime reasons
folks choose to become crafts people. you become in charge
of your life. no one else directs you. i do not know how anyone
can be an artist, and be directed by others.
(it is the part of being an actor that i could not abide...being told
what to do, all the time, every minute, being directed.)
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
Craig Martell on thu 4 dec 03
Hi:
I don't know if this book is still available but, Electric Kiln
Construction for Potters by Robert Fournier is a very good source of info
on how electric kilns work. There's good info on electrical theory for
these kilns, power input, element guages, refractories, circuit design, the
whole shot.
Even if you never plan to build an electric yourself the book will
certainly aid in your understanding of this type of kiln and will also help
with your evaluation of commerical kilns that you may want to buy. If you
plan to do your own repair work this book will be helpful with that too.
regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
william schran on thu 4 dec 03
Mel wrote regarding electric kilns:> LEARN ALL YOU CAN ABOUT IT. READ, AND THEN
READ SOME MORE. TAKE IT APART. LEARN WHAT MAKES
IT TICK....DO NOT LIVE IN FEAR.<
I second this comment and add - don't forget to turn off electricity
at the circuit breaker/disconnect switch & unplug the kiln before you
remove the first screw.
Bill
Tig Dupre on tue 12 apr 05
Dear Claybuds,
About a bazillion years ago, 'way back in the dark ages when I was in college, we had a marvelous electric kiln in the pottery lab. I do not remember the actual name of the kiln, but we called it the "Globar." It was a 16 cubic footer, if I remember correctly, had elements about the size of your thumb in diameter--kanthal elements, unless I'm mistaken.
You could do reduction in that baby, because it had a gas line fed into it, but we mostly used it for bisque. Had a swinging door, and huge knobs on the controls. It was reliable, easy to use, and predictable. Those are qualities I look for in most of my tools.
Mel talks about it, Vince talks about it, most of us talk about it, just in different terms. Industry demands predictability, and designs machinery for it. They make 10,000 plates an hour. They have kilns the size of a warehouse. We make 10 plates an hour and have a kiln the size of a small dog trailer. Which works better?
Sure would love to have that old Globar right now...
Hope to see all of you in Portland,
Tig Dupre
in Port Orchard, Washington, USA
Liz Willoughby on mon 4 jul 05
Folks, I am surprised that no one has mentioned Cone Art Kilns made
by Shimpo. I believe that these kilns are still made in Canada at
Tuckers. They are insulated, and are excellent kilns.
shimpoceramics.com or tuckerspottery.com
Meticky Liz
>On Monday, July 4, 2005, at 02:01 AM, Liz Harris wrote:
>
>> Pottery kilns are so woefully under-insulated, for the most
>>part. Energy expenditure is such a sizeable portion of a potter's
>>budget--when will
>>more manufacturers start to respond with products designed to counter
>>it?
>
>Hi Liz,
>
>I think the answer to this is when we potters show some interest in
>having better quality products AND are willing to pay for them. We are
>a pretty cheap bunch. We don't even care enough to support our local
>pottery supply dealer if we can get something 5-10% cheaper by ordering
>it from across the country. We, as a group, don't seem to have much
>understanding of 'life cycle costs' of owning and operating a
>product--especially kilns.
>
>Regards,
>
>John
Arnold Howard on thu 12 jun 08
If you have a minute, please answer my latest electric kiln
survey:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=hQC_2f7v9mQktA438sn3C6_2bA_3d_3d
If the link doesn't work, you can find it near the center of
Paragon's home page: www.paragonweb.com
I appreciate hearing your opinion.
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
mel jacobson on sat 8 jan 11
i am totally in agreement...most are the same, but,
and that is a big butt.
the electronic controllers and all the other
electronic parts are what separates the major
electric kilns.
they are basically a big toaster.
bricks, wires and coils.
most use good coils.
but, if they are using cheap imported
controllers...the kiln is crap.
i know that the good companies
no longer sell crap. most have learned their
lesson.
so, saying that...i have far too many dear friends
in the electric kiln business. i no
longer say this, or that is better.
i sure support paragon. john the owner has been
very good to clayart friends. he has released howard to
support clayart. it takes time.
steve lewicki the owner of L@L has been more than
good to many of you.
so, if i was going to buy a kiln tomorrow...i would
support either company in a heart beat.
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
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