Hank Ray on thu 4 feb 99
Hello All...
I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
Helllll@aol.com
Olivia T Cavy on fri 5 feb 99
Glad you mentioned this web site, Hank. These people send personal email
to me (and many on Clayart) that jammed my email system at home. (I had
to phone my ISP to have them delete it so I could receive the rest of my
email.) The same message went to me at work where it was too large to
read. I don't know who Krueger is, except that he did not start off well,
in my book.
I also use a sponge at various stages of throwing, and I understand that
the only "rule"of throwing is that there are no rules. It's the finished
pot that counts.
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman
Pittsburgh, PA
work email: bdh@firstcaptl.com or oliviatcavy@juno.com
home email: mou10man@sgi.net
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:28:32 EST Hank Ray writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>
>Hello All...
>I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger
>Pottery....
>Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have
>personally
>seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
>http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
>""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull
>with a
>sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to
>make thin
>walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a
>sandy
>surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
>currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the
>sponge
>because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same
>results
>as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge
>Anonymous
>meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
>Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
>Helllll@aol.com
>
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Joyce Lee on fri 5 feb 99
Yep, I not only throw with A sponge; I throw with two sponges, one
inside the pot and one outside. With absolutely minimal personal
expertise to lend credence to my statements, I must say that it works
for me...don't know when I started, but many genuine experts have
watched me throw and agreed that I didn't need to work on changing this
two-sponged approach. I'd like to add, though, that I've bookmarked
Krueger Pottery's website which is a good one... particularly for those
at my level, with much love for clay, growing experience, holes in our
clay education which we're avidly working to fill, and a smattering of
understanding of this 'n that.
Joyce
In the Mojave enjoying the foggy air, which we have maybe once or twice
a decade...
June Perry on fri 5 feb 99
I also use a sponge and so did my late friend Vivika Heino. I hold onto the
wet sponge in the palm of my right hand, and gentlysqueeze as needed to
lubricate the pot as I'm throwing. Works great for me.
Warm regards,
June
Clark & Julie Kent on fri 5 feb 99
I have to reply to this one, because I think "DO NOT....UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES" is a phrase that should only be applied to something that
threatens the safety of one's life, health or environment. Why be a
potting nazi? Sponge/not sponge is a completely personal choice. And for
me, it's a choice I make depending on the form I'm attempting.
As a guideline, I often suggest that my beginning students work with a
sponge because it gives them more stability and automatically moistens more
often. One less thing to think about in those first 30 minutes at the
wheel! Remember them?
Julie
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hello All...
>I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
>Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
>seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
>http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
>""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
>sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
>walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
>surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
>currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
>because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
>as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
>meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
>Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
>Helllll@aol.com
Cathy Harris on fri 5 feb 99
I know a potter that throws with 2 elephant ear sponges. One on the
outside and one on the inside of his bowls. He throws so incredibly thin,
it's almost transluscent! At a juried show, the juror commented that he
should thicken his bowls up - for the sake of the customer. He uses cone 6
porcelain and cone 10 porcelain. If the grog comes to the surface using a
sponge, it can always be pushed back with a rib. I personnally don't throw
with a sponge, but exquisite bowls can be thrown with sponges just as well
as the fingers!
Cathy
Potter's Pleasure
Aurora, Ontario
----------
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> Hello All...
> I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger
Pottery....
> Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have
personally
> seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
> http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
> """"DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
> sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make
thin
> walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
> surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
> currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the
sponge
> because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same
results
> as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
> meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
> Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
> Helllll@aol.com
>
Pat Colyar on fri 5 feb 99
Dear Hank, I find your "EVERY GREAT" statement just as limiting as
Krueger's "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES". Different techniques work for
different people; people have so many physical and mental differences
that it is doing them a disservice to make such blanket statements about
throwing techniques.
As a teacher of intermediate potters, I often have new students come
in who have been told that such-and-such is the ONLY WAY TO DO
SOMETHING, and are astonished to find that there are many ways to
accomplish something. The rest of Krueger's explanation about the cons
of sponge-throwing I have no argument with; it's informative. Give
students as much information as possible, let them try several methods
to see what works, then get out of their way...
Pat Colyar in Gold Bar, Washington
Charlies and Linda on fri 5 feb 99
Pete
To sponge or not to sponge, that is the question....
I always find it hilarious that certain techniques are so taboo. A
friend of mine took over local art dept. and threw all the Brent splash
pans in the dumpster. Then ripped all the kiln sitters off the kilns.
Why? They were all BAD!!!!! Give me a break!
We potters have a tendency to be unique individuals. Most of us have
strong likes and dislikes when it comes to everything including how we
throw, fire, write, breathe, sleep.... Is there only one way that is
correct? Hell no. Is there one way that is best for me? Maybe. Will
that way work or not work for anyone else? Who knows?
After sanding my finger prints off throwing production planters in a
factory setting I learned to use a sponge (no reproductive joke
intended) to protect my pinkies. It's better than wearing gloves. It
works great for me.
You have a sense of humor. Keep applying it to those that would be
"sponge nazis".
Sorta sincerely,
Charlie Riggs
http://www.cclay.com/criggs/index.htm
Donn Buchfinck on fri 5 feb 99
AHHH
the voice of the facist potter
My opinion is to look at the work
It doesn't matter if you use a sponge or not
I think some of my best teachers use sponges
I love people who make statements
DO NOT DO THIS
IF YOU DO YOU ARE A LOSER
and my glazes always look great
I guess I'm lucky
Donn Buchfinck
David Hendley on fri 5 feb 99
Pete, you've found another entry for the
"myths of ceramics" list.
Any time someone tells me to never do something
innocuous "Under any circumstances" I discount anything
else they might say.
All these years I've had "a sandy surface that will not hold
glaze well", and I didn't even know it!
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
At 10:28 AM 2/4/99 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hello All...
>I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
>Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
>seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
>http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
>""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
>sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
>walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
>surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
>currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
>because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
>as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
>meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
>Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
>Helllll@aol.com
>
orion on fri 5 feb 99
Certainly, there should be no disgrace in bracing or even pulling with a
sponge (or even a rib). When throwing the finest porcelains, it's an
extremely effective technique -- not a crutch, at all!
When it comes to making great pots, my point of view is: once the thee
gloves are off "beware of other people's rules" and "a tool is a tool is a
tool." Any tool (mold, jolly-and-jigger, extruder) or means of forming
clay that EXPANDS the limits of what "clay can do" is a-okay with me!
Happy thawts,
Ellen Baker -- Glacier, WA
orion@telcomplus.net
Beth Ward on fri 5 feb 99
<< """"DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>>
Pete,
I think this is a fine example of why you never really listen to anyone
without really thinking why they are saying what they are saying.
There is no ONE way to do anything, and pottery is a HUGE anything.
If using a sponge works for you then use it. I live in the Denver Metro area
where is it so DRY! I can throw pots and put them outside for half an hour and
trim them. I have to cover things I want to dry slowly very carefully tucking
things in so they are sealed up.
NOT using a sponge would make me have huge dry spots when I am throwing and
make my pots look like the proverbial doo doo.
There is always some "slick" reason for rules, I really question the Krueger
webpage now......
If something like throwing with a sponge, works so well for so many people
then I hold the idea NOT to use one very suspect.
Beth
(Self taught potter and unschooling mother)
Dee Clay on fri 5 feb 99
I must need double the help. I pull with 2 sponges. I get very thin walls and
since my sponges are so worn I can feel the clay in my fingers. I get more
even pressure than with my fingers or knuckle.
Diane in Sunny Miami
Pam Myam on fri 5 feb 99
In a message dated 2/4/99 10:29:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Helllll@AOL.COM
writes:
>
> Hello All...
> I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
> Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
> seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
> http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
> """"DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
> sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make
> thin
(snipped)
Well, to start with, I am barely adequate at throwing, let alone great.
Twenty five or so years ago when I took a few pottery classes in college, I
was taught to throw without a sponge (as near as I can remember.) I didn't
work in clay for about twenty years after the initial experience. When I
started taking classes the second go 'round, I was taught to use a sponge, and
I do, a great deal of the time, but I find that for the final pull or two I
ditch the sponge because I can feel what I need to do better than I can see
it. Besides, I like the finger marks.
I have seen a couple of really good throwers just hold the sponge while not
actually using it. I think it is sometimes for the purpose of having the wet
sponge handy for lubrication rather than reaching back and forth. That seems
to help me at times, too. But yes, it seems to me that most I have seen
appear to use a sponge.
Burtt on sat 6 feb 99
Admittedly, I have not had a number of teachers, but I have never heard
of anyone so strongly opposed to throwing with a sponge. My first
teacher, and my true mentor, told me that throwing with a sponge was an
eastern practice and throwing with a knuckle was western. She gave me
the option and I preferred the sponge. Then another teacher taught me to
throw with finger tips and I eventually developed technique that
includes both sponge and finger tips. And I did this without a great
deal of thought. Can you imagine?
Steve Burtt... on the Gulf Coast where we have just had a day of near
perfect weather. I took my glaze work outside and am testing four new
glazes, two of which came from Clayart archives...thanks.
Hank Ray wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> Hello All...
> I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
> Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
> seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
> http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
> """"DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
> sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
> walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
> surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
> currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
> because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
> as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
> meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
> Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
> Helllll@aol.com
John Stuart on sun 7 feb 99
For me it depends on the claybody I am working with. When I throw vases and
jars from my Raku body, it helps me to use a sponge to smooth out the heavy
grog....And I don't really look for thin walls for Raku firing........Jump
over to White Stoneware for some Japanese tea bowls.....No sponge, don't
need it, and want the thin walls. I basically agree w/Krueger, but
sometimes use a sponge in certain situations.
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hello All...
>I found the following statement off of this web page by Krueger Pottery....
>Personally i use a sponge... and EVERY GREAT thrower that i have personally
>seen throw uses a sponge.... i wonder what you all think......?
>
>http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
>""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
>sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
>walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
>surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
>currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
>because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
>as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
>meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
>
>Pete.. in OKC oklahoma
>Helllll@aol.com
>
jillataylor on sun 7 feb 99
I remember way back in the old days when they said you should never use a =
wheel
because you were BAD if you did and you could never really make good pots =
with
one, that the gods would disapprove and the demons would swallow you up. =
Some
of us laughed and others went underground using a wheel in secret. But when
some were discovered they were brought before the tribunal and sacrificed to
appease the self righteous. Since that time, the wheel has come into =
widespread
use and no one remembers those days when a few brave souls dared to try
something BAD.
Signed,
The Clay Hag
cyberscape on mon 8 feb 99
Since I received these digests two days after the original posts, I
always feel like I am throwing in afterthoughts, but, here is my
afterthought on this subject, anyway.
Some years ago, I was doing a workshop and showing people how I make
"birdwing plates" by flaring a cylinder out almost 180 degrees with a
yardstick, and a woman in the front row started sobbing. I asked her
what the problem was and she replied that she had done the same thing 20
years before and her teacher told her that she was "cheating". I made
it very clear to her, as I always have to students, that the only time
that they are cheating is when they don't figure out how to make what
they visualize, but settle for something less (and who they are cheating
is themselves). Yep, I throw with a sponge, too (and rethrow with a
wooden rib, when I put my almost leather hard pots back on the wheel).
Ooops. That's probably cheating, too.
Developing ways of working which WORK FOR YOU is just good sense.
Harvey Sadow
Vince Pitelka on mon 8 feb 99
>http://www.kruegerpottery.com/throwtips.html
>""""DO NOT PULL WITH A SPONGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you pull with a
>sponge you will never develop the exquisite sensitivity required to make thin
>walls. You will also strip the clay of fine clay particles leaving a sandy
>surface that will not hold glaze well. The sponge is a crutch. If you
>currently throw with a sponge you should quit. It is hard to quit the sponge
>because you will have to improve your throwing skills to get the same results
>as before. This is frustrating and unpleasant. We have Sponge Anonymous
>meetings once a month for those who need a 12-Step approach."""""""
Yes, this is pretty silly. The answer is of course the amount of water on
the sponge. If you use a sponge loaded with water, then Mr./Ms. Krueger is
right. But if you use a sponge loaded with slurry and a minimum of water,
it works great, even for drawing out thin walls. So the sponge itself ain't
the issue.
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
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