Judith S. Musicant on wed 24 feb 99
I have appreciated and enjoyed reading the posts from clayarters who are
making a living doing what we all love to to best. I realize this is a
sensitive issue, but I'll ask anyway. Would those of you who are making a
living be willing to share how much per year on average you are earning,
after expenses (i.e.profit)? I know, I know, a living depends on things
like the cost of living in your location, the standard of living you hope
for and are willing to live with, and most of all, one's perspective. But
for those of us who may be considering taking the plunge, it would be very
interesting to learn the range of income that can be earned in clay from
full time work. To start off, I will report that about 10 years ago I
brazenly asked a professional functional potter attending a workshop with
me what she earned annually. She graciously told me that the year before
she had made $60,000, working virtually all the time. (Don't recall
whether that was before or after expenses). I know she attended a lot of
shows on weekends, so she must have worked like a demon all week. By the
way, she lived in New Jersey, and I believe sold most of her work at shows
in N.J. and perhaps Pennsylvania. Anyway, I'm sure a lot of us would be
interested in that kind of information.
Judy
Morgan Britt on thu 25 feb 99
I'm with Judy on this one. I'm looking at the workforce after having been
gone for 10 years. I really don't want to go back into my old profession, but
have no idea if it's possible to make an adequate living with clay - adequate
would be in Northern California about $48,000 a year for me - though I'm sure
I could make on less if I had to. Is this even realistic and what kind of
volume would I need to expect to keep up in order to do it?
Thanks to all you admirable people making a living doing what you love,
Morgan
"Judith S. Musicant" wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> I have appreciated and enjoyed reading the posts from clayarters who are
> making a living doing what we all love to to best. I realize this is a
> sensitive issue, but I'll ask anyway. Would those of you who are making a
> living be willing to share how much per year on average you are earning,
> after expenses (i.e.profit)? I know, I know, a living depends on things
> like the cost of living in your location, the standard of living you hope
> for and are willing to live with, and most of all, one's perspective. But
> for those of us who may be considering taking the plunge, it would be very
> interesting to learn the range of income that can be earned in clay from
> full time work. To start off, I will report that about 10 years ago I
> brazenly asked a professional functional potter attending a workshop with
> me what she earned annually. She graciously told me that the year before
> she had made $60,000, working virtually all the time. (Don't recall
> whether that was before or after expenses). I know she attended a lot of
> shows on weekends, so she must have worked like a demon all week. By the
> way, she lived in New Jersey, and I believe sold most of her work at shows
> in N.J. and perhaps Pennsylvania. Anyway, I'm sure a lot of us would be
> interested in that kind of information.
>
> Judy
--
Morgan Britt
morgan@unlimited.net
Jan Parzybok on thu 25 feb 99
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>
>I have appreciated and enjoyed reading the posts from clayarters who are
>making a living doing what we all love to to best. I realize this is a
>sensitive issue, but I'll ask anyway. Would those of you who are making a
>living be willing to share how much per year on average you are earning,
>after expenses (i.e.profit)?
Asking what one's net was is irrelavant unless the gross is known. One
year I grossed $100K and netted $20K. Last year I grossed $19K and netted
about $6K. I'm very successful as a potter. Regards, Jan
Kathi LeSueur on thu 25 feb 99
In a message dated 2/24/99 1:36:30 PM, you wrote:
<<<<<<of you who are making a living be willing to share how much per year on
average you are earning, after expenses (i.e.profit)?........... To start
off, I will report that about 10 years ago I brazenly asked a professional
functional potter attending a workshop with me what she earned annually. She
graciously told me that the year before
she had made $60,000, working virtually all the time. >>>>
I would guess that the above figure is gross not net. Sharing with you how
much I make after expenses is a difficult thing. Comparing my net "profit" to
the average person who receives a paycheck every week is like comparing apples
and oranges. There are things I can expense that the normal person would not
be able to. For instance, my vehicle is an expense. Part of my home is a
business related expense. I can take a standard $25 deduction (probably more
now) per day in meals but I rarely spend that much at shows. If I can come up
with a legitimate business reason to visit a place I want to visit anyway, I
can deduct at least part of the trip. There are many other examples.
Similarily, tracking the time I spend on my business is hard. How many
"productive" hours do I put into the business on an average day vs. how many
"productive" hours are put in by the average person receiving a paycheck. I
hear about people working all of the time, but I question it. The nature of
clay is that the potter may find themselves in the studio from early morning
till late at night, BUT not continuously. For me trimming takes place when
pots are ready. There may be a four hour break in the day.
I can tell you this though. I live in Ann Arbor (one of the 10 most expensive
places in the country). Own my home. Pay my taxes. Drive a relatively new
vehicle. And generally don't deprive myself. I work fewer hours than people
assume for the amount of pots generated by my studio. I would have a lot more
money if I was willing to work harder. I'm not. I like being able to go to
lunch and sit for two hours over coffee discussing the problems of the world.
I refuse to run my business as if I worked in a factory. Why be self-employed
if you are just going to treat yourself as if you are not. Organization is
key.
I believe you can make a decent living at making pots IF you can mesh what you
want to make with what people want to buy and you can find the markets to let
you sell it to them. The worst mistake I think any artist can make is to
change what they want to do to get into shows. I know lots of miserable ex-
functional potters who started making "art" in order to get into shows. If you
are a functional potter and find yourself shut out of some of the best shows
find some other way to market your work. If you do one of a kind work find the
markets where that is sought after.
If you can pay your bills, afford to have some fun, and put away something
extra at the end of the year I think you can say you are a success.
Good luck,
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
Dorothy Weber on sat 27 feb 99
Maybe we could take an anonymous poll of how much money everybody REALY make
selling pots, not teaching, not doing some unrelated job, not doing workshops
but just selling pots. If anyone is bold enough to create a survey that could
be anonymous we might get some real interesting results. I don't know how to
make anonymous otherwise I would try.
Olivia T Cavy on sat 27 feb 99
Hello all,
One of the things I've noticed about self-employed businesses (where
there are no employees, only the owner working) is that the indirect
costs (all expenses except cost of goods sold) can and will vary
enormously from business to business from owner to owner and they can
vary from year to year. As Kathi has discussed here, and others have
discussed in the past, non-direct (the non-cost of goods sold) expenses
will be a function of your living situation, marketing situation and
lifestyle choices.
Often business owners will assume that they need to be consistent year to
year for tax purposes. My understanding is that your return is more
likely to be compared to other similar returns for general ratios. I
think your choice of business code (those new 6 digits numbers for 1998)
is important. But exactly what ratios will cause the computer to kick out
your return for a person to review is not published by the IRS. What WILL
cause your return to be examined is a significantly greater reporting of
income on W-2s and 1099s, etc. than you have reported on your tax return.
What is especially important from a potential tax audit viewpoint is to
be sure you document ALL of your expenses, with appropriate paperwork and
that all of your expenses seem "reasonable" (whatever reasonable is!) as
"ordinary and necessary" (an IRS tax term) business expenses. Some of
you may laugh, but my question to clients about whether or not something
is deductible as a business expense is often whether the client would be
comfortable sitting in front of an IRS agent explaining why a deduction
was related to their business. I don't expect my clients to find
themselves in that audit situation and in an audit I would rather they
let me do the talking. BTW there are certain provisions in the American
tax code about what is deductible and how you need to document it, and
what isn't deductible, and periodically those rules change without
warning. Sometimes they even change retroactively. (Yes, I agree, it's
not fair, but that's how it is.)
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA in PA & CO
Pittsburgh, PA
work email: bdh@firstcaptl.com or oliviatcavy@juno.com
home email: mou10man@sgi.net
On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:47:23 EST Kathi LeSueur writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>
>In a message dated 2/24/99 1:36:30 PM, you wrote:
>
><<<<<<>Would those
>of you who are making a living be willing to share how much per year
>on
>average you are earning, after expenses (i.e.profit)?........... To
>start
>off, I will report that about 10 years ago I brazenly asked a
>professional
>functional potter attending a workshop with me what she earned
>annually. She
>graciously told me that the year before
>she had made $60,000, working virtually all the time. >>>>
>
>I would guess that the above figure is gross not net. Sharing with you
>how
>much I make after expenses is a difficult thing. Comparing my net
>"profit" to
>the average person who receives a paycheck every week is like
>comparing apples
>and oranges. There are things I can expense that the normal person
>would not
>be able to. For instance, my vehicle is an expense. Part of my home is
>a
>business related expense. I can take a standard $25 deduction
>(probably more
>now) per day in meals but I rarely spend that much at shows. If I can
>come up
>with a legitimate business reason to visit a place I want to visit
>anyway, I
>can deduct at least part of the trip. There are many other examples.
>
>Similarily, tracking the time I spend on my business is hard. How many
>"productive" hours do I put into the business on an average day vs.
>how many
>"productive" hours are put in by the average person receiving a
>paycheck. I
>hear about people working all of the time, but I question it. The
>nature of
>clay is that the potter may find themselves in the studio from early
>morning
>till late at night, BUT not continuously. For me trimming takes place
>when
>pots are ready. There may be a four hour break in the day.
>
>I can tell you this though. I live in Ann Arbor (one of the 10 most
>expensive
>places in the country). Own my home. Pay my taxes. Drive a relatively
>new
>vehicle. And generally don't deprive myself. I work fewer hours than
>people
>assume for the amount of pots generated by my studio. I would have a
>lot more
>money if I was willing to work harder. I'm not. I like being able to
>go to
>lunch and sit for two hours over coffee discussing the problems of the
>world.
>I refuse to run my business as if I worked in a factory. Why be
>self-employed
>if you are just going to treat yourself as if you are not.
>Organization is
>key.
>
>I believe you can make a decent living at making pots IF you can mesh
>what you
>want to make with what people want to buy and you can find the markets
>to let
>you sell it to them. The worst mistake I think any artist can make is
>to
>change what they want to do to get into shows. I know lots of
>miserable ex-
>functional potters who started making "art" in order to get into
>shows. If you
>are a functional potter and find yourself shut out of some of the best
>shows
>find some other way to market your work. If you do one of a kind work
>find the
>markets where that is sought after.
>
>If you can pay your bills, afford to have some fun, and put away
>something
>extra at the end of the year I think you can say you are a success.
>
>Good luck,
>Kathi LeSueur
>Ann Arbor, MI
>
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