Tim Stowell on mon 15 mar 99
I am sick of hearing people argue about Handmade...Not Handmade
I have said this before to the list. Look at the finished piece. If it
has
integrity, style, soul, form..if it moves you in some way or teaches you
something. It does not matter how, who or why it was made. I have seen
commercial slipcast wear painted ny little old ladies in hobby ceramic
classes
that would rival a picasso piece handsdown.
You people who get on your high horse and start slamming other
people's work because they don't follow your rules should be careful. Dig
your
own clay, build your own equpiment, mine or gather your own glaze
materials...hell,
no electricity.
Where does the arguing end. Quit being threatened by your own
insecurities.
If your work is true to itself and to your design you shouldn't care or
be threatened
by any one else's work. You may have to develop a market. You may have to
educate
consumers. You may have to make some compromises to make a living. You
may
have to make some for the market and some for your art. You may even have
to get
a "real" job. The point is find your own way, worry about your own
work,your own design.
Anyone else's work and market is just that theirs.
Tim
Gerard Stowell Pottery
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Jeff Seefeldt on tue 16 mar 99
I generally agree with you,, but what about the commercial potters that sell
enough wheel thrown pieces to pass their Ram Press mugs and bowls off as
"handmade originals"? I really think this is deceptive to the point of
almost being a scam on the public.
Tim Stowell wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I am sick of hearing people argue about Handmade...Not Handmade
> I have said this before to the list. Look at the finished piece. If it
> has
> integrity, style, soul, form..if it moves you in some way or teaches you
> something. It does not matter how, who or why it was made. I have seen
> commercial slipcast wear painted ny little old ladies in hobby ceramic
> classes
> that would rival a picasso piece handsdown.
> You people who get on your high horse and start slamming other
> people's work because they don't follow your rules should be careful. Dig
> your
> own clay, build your own equpiment, mine or gather your own glaze
> materials...hell,
> no electricity.
> Where does the arguing end. Quit being threatened by your own
> insecurities.
> If your work is true to itself and to your design you shouldn't care or
> be threatened
> by any one else's work. You may have to develop a market. You may have to
> educate
> consumers. You may have to make some compromises to make a living. You
> may
> have to make some for the market and some for your art. You may even have
> to get
> a "real" job. The point is find your own way, worry about your own
> work,your own design.
> Anyone else's work and market is just that theirs.
>
> Tim
> Gerard Stowell Pottery
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Tom Wirt on thu 18 mar 99
>>>Subject: Re: Handmade...Not Handmade
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I generally agree with you,, but what about the commercial potters that
sell
>enough wheel thrown pieces to pass their Ram Press mugs and bowls off as
>"handmade originals"? I really think this is deceptive to the point of
>almost being a scam on the public.
This used to really bother me.....but I guess I've come to realize that the
word "integrity" ultimately takes over. The person doing this charade (and
I know several who have justified it to themselves) will have to live with
what they do. If they are presenting work dishonestly, the market will
ultimately correct.
Also, it is up to me to educate customers to what is the difference, how to
tell and why it might be important.
I have to agree with Tim S., if it's quality work, honestly represented,
what's the difference. It's when deception is involved that there should be
concern, and that's where (for me) the integrity thing kicks in.
'nough said.
Tom Wirt
David Hendley on fri 19 mar 99
I know some of you will disagree, and maybe my defininition
is not dictionary accurate, but I don't think a RAM pressed
or slipcast pot can be called handmade.
Sorry, maybe hands made the mold, but hands did not make it.
It can be called:
handcrafted
hand finished
hand painted
hand decorated
limited production
but not handmade.
Heck, anything ceramic involves a lot of hand work.
Someone had to make the toilet mold, pour the slip
in it, unmold it, trim it, glaze it, and fire it.
I'm certainly not dismissing work made this way. Particularly
with pieces that have deatiled decorating, a cast piece can
have lots more time invested in it than a plain thrown or
hand-built pot. I also understand that, for many artists, forming
the piece is not important, just as some potters would rather
buy glazes instead of formulating their own.
I'm willing to listen, if anyone would like to have a go at
persuading me that my definition is too limited.
What else do we have to do since we aren't whooping
it up in Ohio?
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
Bill and Sylvia Shirley on sun 21 mar 99
Hello everybody.
I totally agree that pieces made from commercial molds are not handmade,
but may be considered hand-finished. Many years ago, I occasionally
painted a piece or two of poured ceramics, but never really felt that it
was my own creation. No matter how hard I worked on it or how well it
turned out. Thrown or handbuilt pottery gives me the sense that I
really did create this thing, even if it's a piece of junk. As I'm sure
a lot of us do, I have a deep inner need to create things. So much so,
that I built my own kick wheel. I like knowing that I made this pot, on
a wheel that I built. It seems like "handmade to the second power" or
something. I mix my own glazes for the same reason. Someday, I hope to
expand that to include firing in a kiln that I designed and built, but
for now, this is enough.
I have a little different question about the handmade issue. What about
when you use a mold you've made yourself, like a press mold for tiles,
or press molded sprigging ornaments that are applied to thrown or
handbuilt work. Or a cookie-press that consists of a press-molded tile
bottom and a thrown handle. Does this qualify as hand-made, or just
hand-finished? If it helps you make things faster, do they cease to be
"handmade"? Is a pressed tile or sprig really any different than an
extruded handle or coil? Somehow, this is a gray area for me, and I'd
like to know what the rest of you think.
Thanks.
Sylvia Shirley
Pittsburg, Kansas
jml@internet.roadrunner.com on mon 22 mar 99
David Hendley wrote:
>I know some of you will disagree, and maybe my defininition
>is not dictionary accurate, but I don't think a RAM pressed
>or slipcast pot can be called handmade.
>Sorry, maybe hands made the mold, but hands did not make it.
>
>It can be called:
>handcrafted
>hand finished
>hand painted
>hand decorated
>limited production
>but not handmade.
Hello David,
For what its worth, I go with handcrafted for my slipcast ware. We carve
designs out of the pieces and spend a lot of time handling and finishing,
but handmade doesn't seem quite right. So I'm with you a little bit, from
the casting side of the fence.
But just to be cantankerous, what about the following:
- a slipcast pitcher body with a hand-pulled handle
- a slipcast pitcher with an extruded handle
- a thrown pitcher body with a cast handle
- a thrown pitcher body with an extruded handle
Does the casting process deny all of the first three of these the hand-made
label? And as for extrusion as legitimately hand-making, I hope nobody has
their hand stuck in the extruder!
I'm not really sure of where I stand on this, because there is a hazy line
we're drawing here. People talk about hand-made wooden furniture -- does
that mean you need to use your bare hands to claw away all the wood that
doesn't look like furniture? How about hand-blown glass -- do you need very
tough palms and heat tolerant lips to qualify for the hand-made label in
this medium?
Jeff
Craig Martell on mon 22 mar 99
David Hendley said:
>I know some of you will disagree, and maybe my defininition
>is not dictionary accurate, but I don't think a RAM pressed
>or slipcast pot can be called handmade.
>Sorry, maybe hands made the mold, but hands did not make it.
Hello David:
Most of the time definitions of things can be fairly absolute but it seems
as if this is not as possible with definitions concerning clay issues and
art-craft stuff.
I don't disagree with you. I think that handmade or not can be a very gray
area and is open to incredible latitudes in subjectivity. Whatever that
means! I don't take issue with how folks make their work or what they may
call "it" or the process by which "it" is made. What pisses me off
sometimes is seeing manufactured work that is passed off as work that isn't
manufactured. In other words, people are sometimes not very up front about
disclosing their process and are very happy to let the public think that the
work has received more hands on attention than it actually has.
That's the only problem that I have with "process" issues. I know a lotta
folks who cast and press and jigger that make really great stuff and are not
shy about letting others in on how they do what they do. Deception is a
total drag in my book and I've seen some craftpeople in all kinds of media
pull off some real deceptive stuff in regard to their work.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
Carolynn Palmer on wed 24 mar 99
It seems to me that Ram presses, jiggers and molds are just alternatives to
the potters wheel, which was an alternative to hand-forming.
Do you think the pots jump off the presses and out of the jiggers and molds
ready to go? Definitely not. There is lots of "hand" work required to make
them into saleable pieces. Most potters that I have seen using this
equipment, use it as an extension of their hands and wheels.
Just like the first potters wheel, do you suppose all of those ancient pinch
pot, coiling, potters stood around watching the very first potters wheel
turning out a pot, exclaiming "that's not handmade!" ?
I hate to admit that I am old enought to remember all of the resistance to
electric potters wheels when they were first introduced and my fellow potters
stood around saying, "That's not real potting. Using an electric wheel will
change the character of pots. Pots thrown on an electric wheel will never
have as much character and integrity as those from a kickwheel." This
"handmade" stuff sounds pretty much the same to me - and I am so glad I have
an electric powered potters wheel!
There is the clay and there is the creative impulse. Everything between this
and the finished work are just tools used to bring about the final creation.
It doesn't matter to me what tools were used to make the final creation. It
is still "handmade."
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
David Hendley on wed 24 mar 99
Thanks to Chris, Craig, Sylvia, and Jeff for replying to my
'handmade' musings.
Everyone seems to agree that slipcast ware is not handmade,
but that there are 'grey areas'.
Here are my answers to your 'what if's'.
These are not presented as absolutes, just the best I can come up
with. Further comment welcomed.
>- a slipcast pitcher body with a hand-pulled handle
>- a slipcast pitcher with an extruded handle
Not handmade. The body of the piece is the predominate
aspect of the piece.
>- a thrown pitcher body with a cast handle
>- a thrown pitcher body with an extruded handle
Handmade. Same reason as above.
Picture a wareboard of 6 cast pitchers with pulled handles
and a board of 6 thrown pitchers with cast handles to
visualize the distinction.
> And as for extrusion as legitimately hand-making, I hope nobody has
>their hand stuck in the extruder!
The reason extruded things can still be called handmade is
that the clay is manipulated after it is extruded. It is formed
into a handle, a bottom is added, or an edge is detailed while the
clay is plastic.
Bricks are extruded, but they are not handmade because
nothing is done to them after they are cut off on leaving the
pugmill.
>What about
>when you use a mold you've made yourself, like a press mold for tiles,
>or press molded sprigging ornaments that are applied to thrown or
>handbuilt work.
Still handmade, the sprigging is just an ornament.
>Or a cookie-press that consists of a press-molded tile
>bottom and a thrown handle.
??? I'd say still handmade. You are still manulipulating plastic
clay for both parts of the piece.
Once again, repeated from my first post:
>I'm certainly not dismissing slipcast work. Particularly
>with pieces that have deatiled decorating, a cast piece can
>have lots more time invested in it than a plain thrown or
>hand-built pot. I also understand that, for many artists, forming
>the piece is not important, just as some potters would rather
>buy glazes instead of formulating their own.
Thanks,
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
http://www.farmpots.com
At 04:23 PM 3/22/99 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>David Hendley wrote:
>>I know some of you will disagree, and maybe my defininition
>>is not dictionary accurate, but I don't think a RAM pressed
>>or slipcast pot can be called handmade.
>>Sorry, maybe hands made the mold, but hands did not make it.
>>
>>It can be called:
>>handcrafted
>>hand finished
>>hand painted
>>hand decorated
>>limited production
>>but not handmade.
>
>Hello David,
>
>For what its worth, I go with handcrafted for my slipcast ware. We carve
>designs out of the pieces and spend a lot of time handling and finishing,
>but handmade doesn't seem quite right. So I'm with you a little bit, from
>the casting side of the fence.
>
>But just to be cantankerous, what about the following:
>- a slipcast pitcher body with a hand-pulled handle
>- a slipcast pitcher with an extruded handle
>- a thrown pitcher body with a cast handle
>- a thrown pitcher body with an extruded handle
>Does the casting process deny all of the first three of these the hand-made
>label? And as for extrusion as legitimately hand-making, I hope nobody has
>their hand stuck in the extruder!
>
>I'm not really sure of where I stand on this, because there is a hazy line
>we're drawing here. People talk about hand-made wooden furniture -- does
>that mean you need to use your bare hands to claw away all the wood that
>doesn't look like furniture? How about hand-blown glass -- do you need very
>tough palms and heat tolerant lips to qualify for the hand-made label in
>this medium?
>
>Jeff
>
David Hendley on thu 25 mar 99
I hope I'm not beating this to death, but I'd like to respond
to Carolynn's statements (thanks for the reply, Carolynn):
>It seems to me that Ram presses, jiggers and molds are just alternatives to
>the potters wheel, which was an alternative to hand-forming.
No. A RAM press makes one thing, and one thing only, all identical,
until a new mold is installed.
Ditto for a jigger machine.
A slip mold makes one thing.
With a potter's wheel the variation is endless. A teacup can be followed
by a teapot, by a teapot spout, by a teapot lid, with no retooling.
A dish made with a RAM press will always be the same.
A dish made by a potter will change, minute by minute, hour by hour,
depending on if the potter is feeling good, feeling tired, has a
headache, or wants to try a slighly different technique.
Using parts and pieces from machine made things is a different
story; for instance, cutting apart and re-assembling cast pieces from
different molds makes the piece handmade.
The pieces are used a 'building componets'.
>
>Do you think the pots jump off the presses and out of the jiggers and molds
>ready to go? Definitely not. There is lots of "hand" work required to make
>them into saleable pieces.
As I said a few days ago, ALL things creamic require a certain amount
of hand work, although after seeing a new state-of-the-art tile factory,
I'm not so sure anymore.
Still, toilets do not jump out of the mold, glaze themselves, and run
into the kiln. Are toilets handmade?
>Most potters that I have seen using this
>equipment, use it as an extension of their hands and wheels.
>Just like the first potters wheel, do you suppose all of those ancient pinch
>pot, coiling, potters stood around watching the very first potters wheel
>turning out a pot, exclaiming "that's not handmade!" ?
Of course a thrown pot is handmade. The potter's hands literally touched
every square inch of the pot. And at any point in the touching the
potter had the option of deciding to change or modify the design.
Not true with pressed or cast ware.
>
>I hate to admit that I am old enought to remember all of the resistance to
>electric potters wheels when they were first introduced and my fellow potters
>stood around saying, "That's not real potting. Using an electric wheel will
>change the character of pots.
True statement, about changing the character of the pots.
The same things were probably said about the first electric kilns and
the first slab rollers.
>Pots thrown on an electric wheel will never
>have as much character and integrity as those from a kickwheel."
>This "handmade" stuff sounds pretty much the same to me -
Character and integrity, of course, have nothing to do with forming
methods; there are good and bad things made with kick wheels,
power wheels, jigger machines, presses, and molds. Anyone who
tells you otherwise is probably a 'ceramic snob'. 'Not handmade'
does not mean 'bad' or 'poor quality' or 'bad design'.
>
>There is the clay and there is the creative impulse. Everything between this
>and the finished work are just tools used to bring about the final creation.
>It doesn't matter to me what tools were used to make the final creation. It
>is still "handmade."
According to this definiton, everything made by humankind is, in
fact, handmade, which makes the definition meaningless.
Someone, somewhere had to have the creative impulse to make
everything in our world.
I would be pretty unhappy if I went to a craft show (which implies
handmade products), as either a seller or a buyer, paid my admission,
and then, according to your definition, saw booths of imported
slipcast ceramics on display.
Thanks,
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
Jeff Seefeldt on thu 25 mar 99
This topic is getting rather old, but it concerns me so I'm adding yet another
post!
If, all of the ram pressers and mold makers, want to be called hand made fine.
Please don't deceive the public as to what it is that you are peddling. I see
many galleries and shops displaying work as "wheel thrown" that's a very
descriptive term, rarely do you see a wheel thrower describing their pottery as
simply hand made.
There would be absolutely no controversy if pieces were describes as "Ram Presse
By Hand" .
I recently discovered that a local "hand made" potter was supplementing his whee
thrown work with ram pressed pieces because as he said he does not have time to
throw that many pieces. All his mugs and small bowls are pressed. His brochure
that are well displayed in many area restaurants and other establishments quote
his work as being "hand made" and show him sitting at a potters wheel.
Its funny that he would feel it important enough to show the wheel but not his
Ram Press.
I've seen a special on television showing the Ram Press that is used to make cla
flower pots, the people running the machine were extremely skilled and each pot
was touched by hand several times in the process, but few would consider them ar
because they are "hand-made"
Wal Mart needs to take a new approach as spring is approaching when advertising
their garden department.
No offense Carolynn, but say it like it is!
Jeff
Carolynn Palmer wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> It seems to me that Ram presses, jiggers and molds are just alternatives to
> the potters wheel, which was an alternative to hand-forming.
>
> Do you think the pots jump off the presses and out of the jiggers and molds
> ready to go? Definitely not. There is lots of "hand" work required to make
> them into saleable pieces. Most potters that I have seen using this
> equipment, use it as an extension of their hands and wheels.
>
> Just like the first potters wheel, do you suppose all of those ancient pinch
> pot, coiling, potters stood around watching the very first potters wheel
> turning out a pot, exclaiming "that's not handmade!" ?
>
> I hate to admit that I am old enought to remember all of the resistance to
> electric potters wheels when they were first introduced and my fellow potters
> stood around saying, "That's not real potting. Using an electric wheel will
> change the character of pots. Pots thrown on an electric wheel will never
> have as much character and integrity as those from a kickwheel." This
> "handmade" stuff sounds pretty much the same to me - and I am so glad I have
> an electric powered potters wheel!
>
> There is the clay and there is the creative impulse. Everything between this
> and the finished work are just tools used to bring about the final creation.
> It doesn't matter to me what tools were used to make the final creation. It
> is still "handmade."
>
> Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
Kathi LeSueur on thu 25 mar 99
In a message dated 3/24/99 4:01:59 PM, you wrote:
>The reason extruded things can still be called handmade is
>that the clay is manipulated after it is extruded. It is formed
>into a handle, a bottom is added, or an edge is detailed while the
>clay is plastic.
The creative potter uses all production means available to her/him. I've seen
slip cast work that is "manipulated after it is" cast. It is sliced, joined,
added to, carved, etc. The same with ram pressed work.
A potter can take a wheel and throw a simple pot. No attention paid to form or
function. Poor finishing. But......... it's hand made. Or a potter can use
that wheel as a tool to make beautiful work. Taking care with each piece. It's
how you use the tool that makes the difference. Is slip casting the beginning
or end? Is ram pressing the beginning or end? Is throwing the beginning or
end? Each technique can be used to make something of beauty or garbage.
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
Tom Wirt on fri 26 mar 99
>It seems to me that Ram presses, jiggers and molds are just alternatives to
>the potters wheel, which was an alternative to hand-forming.
>>>With a potter's wheel the variation is endless. A teacup can be followed
by a teapot, by a teapot spout, by a teapot lid, with no retooling.
A dish made with a RAM press will always be the same.
A dish made by a potter will change, minute by minute, hour by hour,
depending on if the potter is feeling good, feeling tired, has a
headache, or wants to try a slighly different technique.<<<<<
David, et.al.
So if I'm a buyer, and the maker won't be upfront with me, how can I tell
(or at least be reasonably sure) of what I'm getting....slip cast, ram
pressed, wheel thrown, something-and-altered.......that is, what are the
marks left by the different processes that help me identify what I'm look
ing at?
I'll start...if there's a lip that hangs relatively far over the inside edge
of a pot, it's probably not pressed or cast.
Tom Wirt
Dukkie Bishop on fri 26 mar 99
Yes, the topic is an old one but it's the first time I've been able to
sit in
the middle of it. It's been educational and a lot of fun to listen to the
different perspectives. I hope that someone will bring up the topic
again in the future when there are other newbies that haven't heard it.
The basic consensus that I am seeing is "call it what you feel
comfortable
calling it and be honest about telling your clientele how it's produced".
>From: Jeff Seefeldt
>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:42:15 EST
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I recently discovered that a local "hand made" potter was supplementing
>his wheel thrown work with ram pressed pieces because as he said he
>does not have time to throw that many pieces. All his mugs and small
>bowls are pressed. His brochure that are well displayed in many area
>restaurants and other establishments quote his work as being "hand
>made" and show him sitting at a potters wheel.
>Its funny that he would feel it important enough to show the wheel but
not
>his Ram Press.
However we all know there are a lot of schisters out there that will be
deceiving the public. There isn't much we can do about that except point
out that it's false advertising when it is obvious. For example the man
that Jeff Seefeldt mentioned that needs to update his photo, to give him
the benefit of the doubt.
Dukkie
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Vince Pitelka on fri 26 mar 99
>A potter can take a wheel and throw a simple pot. No attention paid to form or
>function. Poor finishing. But......... it's hand made. Or a potter can use
>that wheel as a tool to make beautiful work. Taking care with each piece. It's
>how you use the tool that makes the difference. Is slip casting the beginning
>or end? Is ram pressing the beginning or end? Is throwing the beginning or
>end? Each technique can be used to make something of beauty or garbage.
I agree absolutely with the above, but I don't see how it has much to do
with the question at hand. It is still a fact that the wheel-thrown pot is
a direct product of the potter's hands, with the wheel only providing the
rotary motion. It is entirely the potter's skill which produces the pot.
With a ram press or a slip-casting mold, any semi-skilled worker can create
a large number of ware all exactly the same. I do agree that one can use
slip-casting or ram-pressing to make components which can then be assembled
to form a more complex form, and that form can appropriately be called
hand-made.
Ultimately, I suppose that whether or not the finished product is called
"handmade" is not really the primary issue. The main issue here is
integrity and honesty with the customer. If you are using slip-casting or
ram-pressing to produce your wares, then you damn well better be completely
up front with your customers about the production processes. If not, you
are deceiving your customers, and that will always come back to bite you.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
John K Dellow on fri 26 mar 99
Kathi LeSueur wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> I
> The creative potter uses all production means available to her/him. I've seen
> slip cast work that is "manipulated after it is" cast. It is sliced, joined,
> added to, carved, etc. The same with ram pressed work.
>
>
-- Good point Kathi , I have seen Chinese & Vietnamese Potters cast a
tall blank , then put this on the wheel and throw to the desired
shape.
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
ICQ : #2193986 {jacka}
E-mail : dellow@usa.net
25 Hugh Guinea Ct, Worongary Q 4213
Ph:+61-7-55302875 Fax:+61-7-55253585
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
David Hendley on sat 27 mar 99
>David, et.al.
>
>So if I'm a buyer, and the maker won't be upfront with me, how can I tell
>(or at least be reasonably sure) of what I'm getting....slip cast, ram
>pressed, wheel thrown, something-and-altered.......that is, what are the
>marks left by the different processes that help me identify what I'm look
>ing at?
As a buyer, what I look at is the whole group of work.
It's pretty hard to fake it when there are 10 or 12 matching mugs.
I also think anyone with years of experience making, handling,
and using pottery is receiving scores of subtle unconscious messages
when they pick up a piece of pottery. You just know.
On the other hand, if the maker won't be upfront with you, I say,
"#$%@ him, there's plenty of honest work out there."
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
Kathi LeSueur on sat 27 mar 99
Are we talking about "handmade" here or "hand thrown"?
Example: Clay artist A makes tiles. She designs a tile in clay and makes a
mold of it. She pounds the clay into the mold with a rubber mallet and then
pops it out of the mold. Every piece looks exactly alike.
Clay artist B makes tiles. She designs a tile in clay and makes a mold. She
pounds the clay into the mold with a hydraulic press and then pops it out of
the mold. Every piece looks alike.
Is the tile made by clay artist A handmade because it was pounded in with a
rubber mallet while the tile by artist B is not handmade because it was
pounded in with hydraulic force? Remember, each and every tile produced by
both techniques comes out looking identical to the other.
Is neither handmade since there is no individuality to each piece?
If it takes three minutes to throw a utensil holder and 30 seconds to trim,
while it takes 1 minute to ram press a small casserole and lid with ten
minutes spent on trimming and carving, is only the utensil holder "handmade"?
And, if the slab ware is so precise and uniform that people refuse to believe
it is NOT ram pressed while the variations in the small casserole are so
numerous that they refuse to believe that it IS ram press what difference does
it make in the end?
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
Vince Pitelka on mon 29 mar 99
>Example: Clay artist A makes tiles. She designs a tile in clay and makes a
>mold of it. She pounds the clay into the mold with a rubber mallet and then
>pops it out of the mold. Every piece looks exactly alike.
>Clay artist B makes tiles. She designs a tile in clay and makes a mold. She
>pounds the clay into the mold with a hydraulic press and then pops it out of
>the mold. Every piece looks alike.
>Is neither handmade since there is no individuality to each piece?
It is not as simple as that. Mass-producing with a ram-press is just that -
mass production. When an artist uses a plaster mold to make a limited
number of duplicates of an original it is not mass-production. Sure there
is a middle ground where the distinction gets fuzzy, but that's where it is
up to the artist to be up-front and honest with the customer.
>If it takes three minutes to throw a utensil holder and 30 seconds to trim,
>while it takes 1 minute to ram press a small casserole and lid with ten
>minutes spent on trimming and carving, is only the utensil holder "handmade"?
Yep.
>And, if the slab ware is so precise and uniform that people refuse to believe
>it is NOT ram pressed while the variations in the small casserole are so
>numerous that they refuse to believe that it IS ram press what difference does
>it make in the end?
It still makes a big difference in terms of whether or not the work is
handmade. It makes no difference at all in the marketplace, as long as the
seller is completely honest about the means of production, allowing the
buyer to make up his or her own mind.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Frank Gaydos on mon 29 mar 99
I wanted to add my two cents to this discussion.
I dont approve of potters using store bought 'blanks' and calling them
'handmade pottery'. But I dont mind potters using ram press or jiggers or
jollys to make their work. The big difference as I see it is that the potter
created the original forms for the press, jigger, jolly, (S)he is not using
someone else's original design.
Now, I understand the concept of a collaborative effort among artists, but,
it is always advertised as a collaboration with credit given to both
parties.
After I saw the Picasso work where he did not form any of the clay work,
just cut and glued premade work, I respect the final product because he did
get his hands dirty, but would really be impressed if he did all the work
himself start to finish. This includes making his clay body and glazes and
firing his kilns. He did none of this.
Instead, there is a one sentence mention to the fact that he worked in a
small pottery in the hills. All the contributing artist/craftsmen will
forever be anonymous.
Taken to an extreme along these lines is the work of Jeff Koons who decides
to have a hundred giant poodles made with a luster glaze. He orders the
Poodles from a factory in Italy and just signs his name to them. To me this
is morally bankrupt. A scam for the art crowd. What do you think?
Better make that four cents to the discussion. Getting dizzy from the
soapbox. :>)
Joy Holdread on mon 29 mar 99
This thread reminds me of my mother asking me what was the difference between
what I was doing; throwing, sometimes digging my own clay, mixing my own
glazes,
sometimes mining my own oxides & firing my work in a gas kiln as my livelihood
and what my Aunt Nan did: buying slip cast green ware & painting commercial
glazes on it & paying someone to fire it as a hobby. I canceled my afternoon
plans, sat down & talked to her for over 2 hours about my explorations in
form, function, chemicals, & process. When I asked if she now understood she
said
"I always did I just like to see you get all fired up & passionate"
I'm still thrilled to have the same passion 30 years later & still have the
same great mom.
Joy sleepless in Tucson
Michael McDowell on tue 30 mar 99
Boy, I've been able to keep my mouth shut on this one for weeks now, but
finally I'm giving in. I want to come down squarely on both sides of the
fence. "Handmade" is just a word, a string of letters, or a sound we make.
(Remember Shakespeare's "...a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"?)
Short of going for legislative action, we are not going to be able to enforce
a specific meaning on the term.
To many shoppers, I believe, "handmade" is a "look", not a testimonial for a
specific method of production. Why assume that the person buying slip cast or
ram pressed work (when they say they want something handmade) is being fooled?
Maybe we are fooling ourselves into thinking they are concerned about the same
issues we are.
It is important to me, in fully appreciating a piece of pottery, to know just
how it was made. But I can't say that "Handmade" is a piece of information
that would be of concern to me. It's just too nebulous a term. I'd want to
know specifically what the hands had done, what the heart, ...
Pottery of merit, significant works, can be made by any number of means. The
specifics of how said pieces were made are important qualitative aspects of
those pieces. Knowledge of those specifics informs our appreciation of the
pieces, but the pieces must stand on their own.
Honesty. Many have said this before. Honesty is important. Tell the truth
about how your work is made. "Handmade" just doesn't paint a clear enough
picture in any case. It's kind of like "Organic" for vegetables. We used to
think we had something meaningful to say about our vegetables when we said we
grew them "organically". Now that we have finally got a legal definition of
the term, I'm not even interested in qualifying for it. It's just a
politically derived, inflexible formula. I tell my customers that my produce
is "Bureaucracy Free!"
Michael McDowell
Whatcom County, WA USA
mmpots@memes.com
http://www2.memes.com/mmpots
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