Kathi LeSueur on fri 26 mar 99
------------------
Handmade, apprentices, employees, equipment, display, wholesale, =
consignment.
All of these are hotly debated issues not only for clay but for other craft
media. I=92ve been watching the debate for years and it seems to come down =
to
this: =93If I do it, it=92s ok for for you to do it. If I don=92t do it, =
then you=92re
cheating if you do it.=94 I have a long history to support this opinion.
Potter =93A=94 comes up to me at a fair and tells me how he just got in the =
face
of potter =93B=94 because potter =93B=94 RAM presses his work. In the =
ensuing
discussion it comes out that potter =93A=94 slip casts his work. His
justification? Slip casting is =93hands-on=94. I guess if you=92re the one =
pouring
the slip it is hands on. But how is that different from pugging the clay and
placing it in the die? =93Well, you have to hand work every piece of slip =
cast
work if it=92s going to look good.=94 I hate to tell you but you have to =
hand
trim every pressed piece if it=92s going to look good. (by the way, potter =
=93B=94
actually was slip casting most of the work just like potter =93A=94)
Potter =93C=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93D=94 =
who has
employees. Potter =93D=94 calls them =93apprentices=94. But =93no=94 says =
potter =93C=94. They
make his pots. Come to find out, potter =93C=94 apprenticed in England at =
the
Leach studio. Now, we all know that if you apprentice at the Leach studio =
you
make Leach pots. If you apprentice in Japan you make the pots of the =
Japanese
studio. That=92s how you learn. I guess it=92s only legitimate if you learn =
to
make pots from an English potter or a Japanese potter. American potter=92s
somehow aren=92t worthy of having an apprentice.
Potter =93E=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93F=94 =
and his
power extruder. =93It=92s just not right.=94 Potter =93E=94 has extruded =
pots in his
booth, too, but since he hasn=92t bought a power extruder to help him =
increase
production he=92s complaining.
Potter =93G=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93H=94 =
who has a
line in front of his booth twenty feet long. =93There=92s no way that guy =
makes
all of that stuff, he shouldn=92t be allowed in.=94 I=92ve seen potter =
=93H=94 throw. I
think I throw fast, but =93H=94 is amazing while =93G=94 is downright slow.
Potter =93K=94 comes up to me at a fair and says potter =93L=94 shouldn=92t =
be in the
show because he has someone helping him in the studio. =93If he=92s not =
going to
do everything himself he shouldn=92t be at a craft fair, he should be
wholesaling.=94
Potter =94M=94 comes up to me at the Rosen show and says potter =93N=94 =
shouldn=92t be
at the show because he has someone working for him. He doesn=92t do =
everything
himself. He=92s lying to the public.
Potter =93O=94 comes up to me at a show and says, =93Look at that guy and =
his lousy
pots. I can=92t believe that people are buying from him. These people just =
don=92t
know what is good. No wonder I can=92t sell anything here.=94
The sad results of all of this whining and complaining are numerous. First,
clay is very labor intensive. It destroys the body over time. Wedging,
throwing, trimming, loading kilns all can result in injuries from repetitive
motion and stress to muscles. I=92m seeing more and more potters on the =
verge of
being cripples because they=92ve abused their body for so long. Yet, anytime
anyone finds a way to ease some of the strain, someone else is complaining
about the solution they=92ve found. The choice is to become a cripple or =
quit
doing what you love.
Second, people should not be making marketing decisions for others. =
Displaying
on pedestals may be great for one potter but disaster for another. People
generally display their in a way that sells for THEMSELVES. You may not want
to be a production potter but others love it. To each his own.
Third, such complaining keeps people from taking a hard look at their own =
work
and why the public isn=92t interested in it. They think to themselves that, =
=93if
only that person wasn=92t here I would be selling.=94 Wrong=21 It doesn=92t =
matter who
is or is not there. If the public doesn=92t want your work they won=92t buy =
it
even if you are the only potter in the show. And, it isn=92t because they =
don=92t
know what is good. The best lesson I ever got on this subject was at Ann =
Arbor
a number of years ago. As a customer was standing in my booth having just
spent =24200 on a large sculptural piece I considered on of the best I=92d =
ever
done, she looked across the aisle and said, =93I think he=92s the best =
potter in
the whole show.=94 Well, I=92d always hated those pots. But, what was I to =
say? My
customer has no taste. She just bought one of my best pieces. So, who am I =
to
judge?
Many shows are in serious decline. Attendance and sales are down at many. =
The
public feels the tension and animosity generated from one exhibitor to
another. They realize that this is no longer a friendly group of artists all
supporting one another. This keeps the shows from being fun. Our customers
want to just come to the shows, have a good time, buy something THEY like =
and
can AFFORD. If we keep attacking each other for making choices that are
contrary to the ones we would choose we will drive ourselves, our shows, and
our sales into further decline. If we concentrate on making the best pots we
can in the way that is right for us, with the help we feel we need at =
whatever
stage in our careers we are at, we will be much happier, the public will =
feel
it and we will all be more successful in the end.
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
Berry Silverman on sat 27 mar 99
Kathi,
I think your comments are the most well-reasoned so far
on this subject. If we are honest with ourselves, I
think most of us would recognize our own behavior at
one time or another in the scenarios you describe. And
it is all closely related to insecurity, perceived
threat and vulnerability, and a misunderstanding of the
economics involved. One of the reasons everyone chases
new glazes is because we want something new and we also
all have different tastes -- and so does our buying
public. And those differences in taste encompass not
only glazes, but also form, texture, function, style --
everything covered by a vision, coupled with method of
creation.
Someone I admire very much once told me that many of
us, when confronted with someone else at a higher level
than we are (whether real or imagined), may try to
equalize our standing by bringing the other person down
to our level -- but the wiser person will try to lift
themselves up. We can only try, and sometimes we will
succeed.
Thanks for such clear-eyed point of view.
Berry Silverman
Berryware
Tucson, AZ
--- Kathi LeSueur wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> ------------------
> Handmade, apprentices, employees, equipment,
display,
> wholesale, consignment.
> All of these are hotly debated issues not only for
> clay but for other craft
> media. I ve been watching the debate for years and
it
> seems to come down to
> this: If I do it, it s ok for for you to do it. If
I
> don t do it, then you re
> cheating if you do it. I have a long history to
> support this opinion.
>
> Potter A comes up to me at a fair and tells me how
> he just got in the face
> of potter B because potter B RAM presses his
> work. In the ensuing
> discussion it comes out that potter A slip casts
> his work. His
> justification? Slip casting is hands-on . I guess
if
> you re the one pouring
> the slip it is hands on. But how is that different
> from pugging the clay and
> placing it in the die? Well, you have to hand work
> every piece of slip cast
> work if it s going to look good. I hate to tell
you
> but you have to hand
> trim every pressed piece if it s going to look good.
> (by the way, potter B
> actually was slip casting most of the work just like
> potter A )
>
> Potter C comes up to me at a fair and complains
> about potter D who has
> employees. Potter D calls them apprentices . But
> no says potter C . They
> make his pots. Come to find out, potter C
> apprenticed in England at the
> Leach studio. Now, we all know that if you
apprentice
> at the Leach studio you
> make Leach pots. If you apprentice in Japan you make
> the pots of the Japanese
> studio. That s how you learn. I guess it s only
> legitimate if you learn to
> make pots from an English potter or a Japanese
> potter. American potter s
> somehow aren t worthy of having an apprentice.
>
> Potter E comes up to me at a fair and complains
> about potter F and his
> power extruder. It s just not right. Potter E
> has extruded pots in his
> booth, too, but since he hasn t bought a power
> extruder to help him increase
> production he s complaining.
>
> Potter G comes up to me at a fair and complains
> about potter H who has a
> line in front of his booth twenty feet long.
There s
> no way that guy makes
> all of that stuff, he shouldn t be allowed in. I ve
> seen potter H throw. I
> think I throw fast, but H is amazing while G is
> downright slow.
>
> Potter K comes up to me at a fair and says potter
> L shouldn t be in the
> show because he has someone helping him in the
> studio. If he s not going to
> do everything himself he shouldn t be at a craft
> fair, he should be
> wholesaling.
>
> Potter M comes up to me at the Rosen show and says
> potter N shouldn t be
> at the show because he has someone working for him.
> He doesn t do everything
> himself. He s lying to the public.
>
> Potter O comes up to me at a show and says, Look
> at that guy and his lousy
> pots. I can t believe that people are buying from
> him. These people just don t
> know what is good. No wonder I can t sell anything
> here.
>
> The sad results of all of this whining and
> complaining are numerous. First,
> clay is very labor intensive. It destroys the body
> over time. Wedging,
> throwing, trimming, loading kilns all can result in
> injuries from repetitive
> motion and stress to muscles. I m seeing more and
> more potters on the verge of
> being cripples because they ve abused their body for
> so long. Yet, anytime
> anyone finds a way to ease some of the strain,
> someone else is complaining
> about the solution they ve found. The choice is to
> become a cripple or quit
> doing what you love.
>
> Second, people should not be making marketing
> decisions for others. Displaying
> on pedestals may be great for one potter but
disaster
> for another. People
> generally display their in a way that sells for
> THEMSELVES. You may not want
> to be a production potter but others love it. To
each
> his own.
>
> Third, such complaining keeps people from taking a
> hard look at their own work
> and why the public isn t interested in it. They
think
> to themselves that, if
> only that person wasn t here I would be selling.
> Wrong! It doesn t matter who
> is or is not there. If the public doesn t want your
> work they won t buy it
> even if you are the only potter in the show. And, it
> isn t because they don t
> know what is good. The best lesson I ever got on
this
> subject was at Ann Arbor
> a number of years ago. As a customer was standing in
> my booth having just
> spent $200 on a large sculptural piece I considered
> on of the best I d ever
> done, she looked across the aisle and said, I think
> he s the best potter in
> the whole show. Well, I d always hated those pots.
> But, what was I to say? My
> customer has no taste. She just bought one of my
best
> pieces. So, who am I to
> judge?
>
> Many shows are in serious decline. Attendance and
> sales are down at many. The
> public feels the tension and animosity generated
from
> one exhibitor to
> another. They realize that this is no longer a
> friendly group of artists all
> supporting one another. This keeps the shows from
> being fun. Our customers
> want to just come to the shows, have a good time,
buy
> something THEY like and
> can AFFORD. If we keep attacking each other for
> making choices that are
> contrary to the ones we would choose we will drive
> ourselves, our shows, and
> our sales into further decline. If we concentrate on
> making the best pots we
> can in the way that is right for us, with the help
we
> feel we need at whatever
> stage in our careers we are at, we will be much
> happier, the public will feel
> it and we will all be more successful in the end.
>
> Kathi LeSueur
> Ann Arbor, MI
>
_________________________________________________________
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Hank Ray on sun 28 mar 99
------------------
Well, you stole my fire....
I was gonna bring this up to the group as an unrelated subject....
i like to think of it as the duality of ceramic world.... on one had you =
have
all this airy fairy warm fuzzy talk about ceramics and such... potters =
want
to form guilds and associations and clubs etc.. they like to hang out and =
talk
tech, and such..... they even have their own list serve....=22clayart=22 =
... i
remember, a few years ago... when i found clay art .,.. a friend of mine was
jealous cause there wasn't any thing like it for sculptor or painting.....
but on the other hand .. potters are the most critical... cut throat ...
competitive group around..... ask a potter what they think about the =
other
local artist... you get wishy washy this wishy washy that.... ask about who
they don't like and why... and whoaaaa daddy... they'll talk for
hours......
but hey... i still love clay and potters......and i'm not sure what to make =
of
it all....
pete in okc. ok over and out...
=3E=3E=3E=3E=3E=3EHandmade, apprentices, employees, equipment, display, =
wholesale,
consignment.
All of these are hotly debated issues not only for clay but for other craft
media. I=92ve been watching the debate for years and it seems to come down =
to
this: =93If I do it, it=92s ok for for you to do it. If I don=92t do it, =
then you=92re
cheating if you do it.=94 I have a long history to support this opinion.
Potter =93A=94 comes up to me at a fair and tells me how he just got in the =
face
of potter =93B=94 because potter =93B=94 RAM presses his work. In the =
ensuing
discussion it comes out that potter =93A=94 slip casts his work. His
justification? Slip casting is =93hands-on=94. I guess if you=92re the one =
pouring
the slip it is hands on. But how is that different from pugging the clay and
placing it in the die? =93Well, you have to hand work every piece of slip =
cast
work if it=92s going to look good.=94 I hate to tell you but you have to =
hand
trim every pressed piece if it=92s going to look good. (by the way, potter =
=93B=94
actually was slip casting most of the work just like potter =93A=94)
Potter =93C=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93D=94 =
who has
employees. Potter =93D=94 calls them =93apprentices=94. But =93no=94 says =
potter =93C=94. They
make his pots. Come to find out, potter =93C=94 apprenticed in England at =
the
Leach studio. Now, we all know that if you apprentice at the Leach studio =
you
make Leach pots. If you apprentice in Japan you make the pots of the =
Japanese
studio. That=92s how you learn. I guess it=92s only legitimate if you learn =
to
make pots from an English potter or a Japanese potter. American potter=92s
somehow aren=92t worthy of having an apprentice.
Potter =93E=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93F=94 =
and his
power extruder. =93It=92s just not right.=94 Potter =93E=94 has extruded =
pots in his
booth, too, but since he hasn=92t bought a power extruder to help him =
increase
production he=92s complaining.
Potter =93G=94 comes up to me at a fair and complains about potter =93H=94 =
who has a
line in front of his booth twenty feet long. =93There=92s no way that guy =
makes
all of that stuff, he shouldn=92t be allowed in.=94 I=92ve seen potter =
=93H=94 throw. I
think I throw fast, but =93H=94 is amazing while =93G=94 is downright slow.
Potter =93K=94 comes up to me at a fair and says potter =93L=94 shouldn=92t =
be in the
show because he has someone helping him in the studio. =93If he=92s not =
going to
do everything himself he shouldn=92t be at a craft fair, he should be
wholesaling.=94
Potter =94M=94 comes up to me at the Rosen show and says potter =93N=94 =
shouldn=92t be
at the show because he has someone working for him. He doesn=92t do =
everything
himself. He=92s lying to the public.
Potter =93O=94 comes up to me at a show and says, =93Look at that guy and =
his lousy
pots. I can=92t believe that people are buying from him. These people just =
don=92t
know what is good. No wonder I can=92t sell anything here.=94
The sad results of all of this whining and complaining are numerous. First,
clay is very labor intensive. It destroys the body over time. Wedging,
throwing, trimming, loading kilns all can result in injuries from repetitive
motion and stress to muscles. I=92m seeing more and more potters on the =
verge of
being cripples because they=92ve abused their body for so long. Yet, anytime
anyone finds a way to ease some of the strain, someone else is complaining
about the solution they=92ve found. The choice is to become a cripple or =
quit
doing what you love.
Second, people should not be making marketing decisions for others. =
Displaying
on pedestals may be great for one potter but disaster for another. People
generally display their in a way that sells for THEMSELVES. You may not want
to be a production potter but others love it. To each his own.
Third, such complaining keeps people from taking a hard look at their own =
work
and why the public isn=92t interested in it. They think to themselves that, =
=93if
only that person wasn=92t here I would be selling.=94 Wrong=21 It doesn=92t =
matter who
is or is not there. If the public doesn=92t want your work they won=92t buy =
it
even if you are the only potter in the show. And, it isn=92t because they =
don=92t
know what is good. The best lesson I ever got on this subject was at Ann =
Arbor
a number of years ago. As a customer was standing in my booth having just
spent =24200 on a large sculptural piece I considered on of the best I=92d =
ever
done, she looked across the aisle and said, =93I think he=92s the best =
potter in
the whole show.=94 Well, I=92d always hated those pots. But, what was I to =
say? My
customer has no taste. She just bought one of my best pieces. So, who am I =
to
judge?
Many shows are in serious decline. Attendance and sales are down at many. =
The
public feels the tension and animosity generated from one exhibitor to
another. They realize that this is no longer a friendly group of artists all
supporting one another. This keeps the shows from being fun. Our customers
want to just come to the shows, have a good time, buy something THEY like =
and
can AFFORD. If we keep attacking each other for making choices that are
contrary to the ones we would choose we will drive ourselves, our shows, and
our sales into further decline. If we concentrate on making the best pots we
can in the way that is right for us, with the help we feel we need at =
whatever
stage in our careers we are at, we will be much happier, the public will =
feel
it and we will all be more successful in the end.
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
"Terry Sullivan/Nottingham Center for the Arts. San Marcos," on sun 28 mar 99
This endless debate over handmade/craft/art.. blah, blah blah
Georgia...........
Kathie LeSueur makes the point quite well.
Crafts men and women have employed the most effecient tools available and used
helpers to make their work since Ooog the spear maker took on Duhh as an
apprentice/helper.
Sometimes the deer antler and piece of leather is the best way to do the job
well.
Sometimes useing the wheel beats the hell out of draging clay to the shop on a
couple of poles. ( figuring out that you could use it to make the pots as well
came much later).
Many of the greatest works of art were made with the help of "workers" and
apprentices. Renaissance anyone ??
Rhodan didn't make his molds or cast and finnish the pieces. Hell; the
craftsmen at the foundry had to scale up the piece from a maquett on a few
ocassions.
Gasp !!
Michaelangelo, contrary to the Agony and the Extasy, had lots of staff
assisting the Sistine chapple. And I'd bet $ he'd have used phneumatic tools
to rough out marble if could.
Most of these "arguments" about craft/art/tools/helpers are so full of holes
it'd make swiss cheeze look solid.
Apply just a bit of reason to many of them and they reach ridiculous
conclusions.
( and you can't have it both ways either !!! )
Only in this age and in these rich industrialized countries could we have this
"romantic" vision of the lone craftsperson toiling away making great work
with ,
I suppose, their bare hands and still making a suitable living. BS !!
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it or couldn't do it. Some do and can. GREAT !
WONDERFUL ! in some ways I envy you. What I wouldn't give for a couple months
alone in or out of the studio.
But it never has been the norm and never will be. Most of the Craft we admire
from the past was made by one or more persons with artistic vision and a team
of variously skilled helpers using the best, most effecient tools the
company/guild could afford.
Terry Sullivan
Nottingham Center for the Arts
Feeling a bit fiesty this morning. Must be spring.
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