Bill Weaver on tue 30 mar 99
Kathi and Barry,
I agree and I would like to throw one more thing into the pot: mass
produced. This seems to be part of the issue. The issue of handmade seems
indeed to be one of insecurity. The question I'd like an answer to is ...
how is the potter who produces 300 of the SAME mugs or bowls (which to
according to one of the list members are so exact that a plumb line can be
snapped across them)any different than a human ram press!! Yes a potter
working on a wheel can make lots of things and can manipulate the clay but
if the end result looks like it was machine made and the end result does not
reflect the heart and soul of its creator. Or the finished piece does not
evoke a deep seated connection with the person who buys it how is it any
diferent than a machine made piece. I am with Barry
I get tired of the pretentious smugness of production potters looking down
their noses at those of us who create pieces that come from our hearts.
The point is we alldo what we do because of whatever reason we do it and as
Vince has said lets at least be honest about it. I see no difference between
the dishonest slip caster, rampresser and the production potter who makes
five gazillion of the same piece all with little or no life, they all mass
produce only with different methods.
The discussion of handmade seems to be alittle tedious when limited to hand
made since I don't think many people are out there making things with their
feet or other body part!!Each and every method requires the product to be
touched by hand and some point.
Enough said.
Kathi LeSueur on wed 31 mar 99
In a message dated 3/30/99 7:48:08 AM, you wrote:
>Kathi and Barry,
>I agree and I would like to throw one more thing into the pot: mass
>produced. This seems to be part of the issue. The issue of handmade seems
>indeed to be one of insecurity. The question I'd like an answer to is ...
>how is the potter who produces 300 of the SAME mugs or bowls (which to
>according to one of the list members are so exact that a plumb line can be
>snapped across them)any different than a human ram press!! I am with Barry
>I get tired of the pretentious smugness of production potters looking down
>their noses at those of us who create pieces that come from our hearts.
>The point is we all do what we do because of whatever reason we do it and as
>Vince has said lets at least be honest about it. I see no difference between
>the dishonest slip caster, rampresser and the production potter who makes
>five gazillion of the same piece all with little or no life, they all mass
>produce only with different methods.
Oh my, you've gone to the word that just warms my heart. "Mass produced" it
evokes such memories. I was preparing a "treatise" on the subject in my usual
long and probably boring way. You've given me just the right opening. Eight
years of sitting on the Board and Standards committee of a major arts
organization arguing about just what "mass-produced" is. Eight years of trying
to protect the "functional craftsmen" from the "fine artists". It was an
impossible task. The functional crafts people were either too busy making and
selling to get involved or too busy attacking each other for perceived
cheating to understand that the real threat was not their fellow craftspeople.
I'm sorry to say it my friends, but the defisell at retail art fairs. It's no
longer about the use of mechanization to spit out unlimited numbers of an
item.
A national arts organization (the one referred to above) has been attempting
to limit "mass-produced" work in their fairs, and those put on by others, for
years. Well, the "good" guys have finally won and they will probably get their
way. And since many of their decisions have influenced the rules at other
fairs (there's a reason why all these fairs have that silly rule, "no weapons
displayed or sold") these will probably get adopted widely.
I can hear you cheering. But wait. You just might fit the definition of "mass-
produced". Are you a functional potter? Do you make the same things over and
over? When you sell that large bowl on display do you have another in a box to
go in it's place. Do you have four casseroles on display in different glazes?
Well, if the answers are "yes", then I'm sorry to inform you that you are
"mass producing".
Whether you are a potter making cups, bowls, casseroles, trays, and vases or a
wood worker making cutting boards, knife holders, lazy susans, or other
functional items you will no longer be welcome under the proposed standards.
It doesn't matter how you produce it. If you've got more just like it you are
"mass-producing".
Who will this affect? All craftspersons with the possible exception of some
jewelers. Some jewelers have been at the forefront of this movement and gotten
into positions of authority. The fact that they cast multiples of rings
doesn't apply, they have to size every one of them (they say). The fact that
the painter paints the same subject over and over doesn't matter. And
silkscreen is ok as long as you don't use a power squeegee.
Now, you might be able to get by if you display on pedestals and bring only
one of an item or a set to a show or if your work is big. One bowl sold here,
one there. Do enough shows and you can still make a living.
How did this all come about? Shows started as an alternative to the gallery.
Just you and the public. No one deciding for them what was good. Lots of shows
were started and run by craftspeople. Potters got together and started a show
inviting artists in other media to participate. In the seventies it wasn't
unusual for a show to be 30-50% potters. When the fine artists realized that
people were buying at the shows they started applying. Then they took over the
Boards.Then they hired the gallery owners to jury for them.
But the fine artists aren't doing well so just like the potter who decides if
that another potter wasn't in the show he would do better, the fine artists
feel that if all the functional crafts weren't in the shows they would do
better. Solution: get rid of the functional crafts. Oh, you'll still have
clay. But if it has a function you probably won't get in. You'll still have
wood workers. But if the average person can afford that table, the wood worker
won't get in.
Just a different group of people deciding who and what is legitimate based on
the definitions they apply to the terms used to decide.
Of course, you can just do other shows. But if those shows are become good
sellers they will get taken over, "upgraded", and you'll be out of them too.
In the end the public won't have anywhere to go to buy what they want but to
the retail shops who aren't as much into "educating the public" as making a
living.
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, MI
Vince Pitelka on wed 31 mar 99
>I agree and I would like to throw one more thing into the pot: mass
>produced. This seems to be part of the issue. The issue of handmade seems
>indeed to be one of insecurity. The question I'd like an answer to is ...
>how is the potter who produces 300 of the SAME mugs or bowls (which to
>according to one of the list members are so exact that a plumb line can be
>snapped across them)any different than a human ram press!! Yes a potter
>working on a wheel can make lots of things and can manipulate the clay but
>if the end result looks like it was machine made and the end result does not
>reflect the heart and soul of its creator.
I'm sorry to be so contradictory, but I can't help it. The above is
completely ridiculous. In the hand-thrown production wares there are ALWAYS
subtle differences between the individual pieces, even when made by the most
skilled potter. If the work is well designed, and if the potter is
committed to what she or he does, then no matter how efficient the
production techniques, then the finished product will have the expression
and soul characteristic of handmade objects. This will NEVER be true of the
ram-pressed work.
>I get tired of the pretentious smugness of production potters looking down
>their noses at those of us who create pieces that come from our hearts.
I don't know who you are talking about here. Any production potter who
develops the skills to throw large numbers of matching forms has reason to
be damn proud of those skills and the wares he or she produces. Any potter
who weighs the pros and cons, and chooses instead to transform her or his
business into a cottage industry, employing industrial mass-production
techniques, and is successful in doing so, has reason to be proud of that
accomplishment. But the first relies on extraordinary manual skill, while
the latter relies on an investment in expensive machinery, and the ability
to operate that machinery efficiently. There is a world of difference
between the two.
>The discussion of handmade seems to be alittle tedious when limited to hand
>made since I don't think many people are out there making things with their
>feet or other body part!!Each and every method requires the product to be
>touched by hand and some point.
Being touched by the hand is of course not the issue at all. Being MADE by
the hand is, and it seems pretty obvious to me that there are relative
degrees of "handmade" here. Personally, I cannot call a slip-cast or
ram-pressed pot handmade, unless the slip-cast or ram-pressed components are
subsequently significantly altered and/or assembled to make the finished
product. If, however, they are simply removed from the mold, parting lines
cleaned up, etc. to complete the finished piece, then those objects are no
more handmade than a Kohler toilet.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Vince Pitelka on thu 1 apr 99
>subtle differences between the individual pieces, even when made by the most
>skilled potter. If the work is well designed, and if the potter is
>committed to what she or he does, then no matter how efficient the
>production techniques, then the finished product will have the expression
>and soul characteristic of handmade objects. This will NEVER be true of the
>ram-pressed work.
Yes, I am responding to my own post here. I acknowledge that the quality
and beauty of ram-pressed or slip-cast things has entirely to do with the
creativity and integrity of the designer-maker. I have no problem with that
at all. I know people who run high-production operations ram-pressing
and/or slip-casting, producing beautiful, affordable products. Such an
accomplishment is admirable, and if one of my students chose to go in that
direction I would give them my full support, and at the appropriate time I
would recommend that they go to someone like Jonathan Kaplan for the expert
training needed in that area.
As an educator in the fine-craft field, my concern here is that we come to
some agreement over the meaning of the terminology, but I am afraid that in
this case it may be impossible. I still feel that the term handmade means
that the end product is the result of shaping and manipulating with human
hands, utilizing the creative skills and manual dexterity of the artisan.
The fact that so many people are so passionate about this is a good thing.
It shows how committed we all are to our own interpretation of the subject.
Ultimately, at the risk of repeating myself, I just want to see people be
straightforward and honest about what they do. No one should feel self
conscious or defensive about a direction they choose with purpose and
conviction.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Mark on thu 1 apr 99
OK, I have not read all the threads. I haven't even read most of them.
But, I am off work for a few days and to celebrate I have consumed a beer
or two (going to NYC tomorrow to visit family/friends), so be warned...
So what if someone throws a few dozen pieces that are so similar that one
can snap a line across them? What if you saw one piece and loved it? If
you then saw her three dozen sisters would you love her less? I have a lot
of old mass produced stuff in my house. Some are even antiques. There are
probably thousands out there somewhere, but do I enjoy mine less knowing
that? No.
I gave a teapot to a friend who called me today to say that she uses it
every day and really loves it. I am so happy for that. But I know there
are a few more teapots pretty darn similar to that one out there, and their
owners will probably not think to call me. But that's OK. I make pots
because I want people to enjoy them, and to use them.
For some reason we get attached to objects. We use them, we rely on them
and we mourn them if they break. They can be a machine made object we
liked for some reason, or were given by someone we cared about, or they can
be unique one of a kind art objects. But the feelings are similar, and the
loss is still felt if they break. So why fuss over it? As long as people
enjoy and use them, who cares?
Mark
Bob Bruch on tue 2 may 00
Ray Aldridge writes in response to:
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>>>To me, these types of pieces are far more "one of a kind" and often have
far
>>>>more "handwork" than any one of the individual pieces of a production
potter
>>>>who knocks out dozens of cups/plates (and often puts the same basic glaze
on
>>>>each one).
<<<<<<<<<of
<<<<"originality," which is probably a whole lot harder to define.
<<<<<<<<<
1) It seems as though there ARE two distinct areas of discussion &
2) The original argument and some of the ensuing posts muddied that
distinction &
3) For some reason that seems to happen each time the "handmade" argument
arises.
Bob Bruch
Aldridge Porcelain and Stoneware
http://www.goodpots.com
-----------------------------
mel jacobson on sat 20 may 00
The moderator is going to put `handmade to bed for awhile`.
FROM MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA, USA
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
Jon Pacini on thu 6 sep 01
Greetings All--------If I were to roll out a slab, put it on a hump mold on
a wheel, rib it out smooth, add a coil and use a profile rib to shape the
foot ---would you consider that throwing or jiggering or what?? Other than
placing the clay on the wheel, I might never actually 'touch' the piece
during the forming process.
I would certainly have to consider it handmade, and I don't see how
substituting a jiggering arm and rib, for my arm and a rib, would some how
make this ware 'machine' made.
Just my 2-bits worth---------
Jon Pacini
Clay Manager
Laguna Clay Co
where the marine layer is keeping it cool
mel jacobson on fri 7 sep 01
we all know the answer.
there is no discussion.
we can wax and wane for months.
handmade is handmade.
or we can start to consider:
the guy that pushes the buttons at the factory
gets credit for using his hand. handmade.
your hand moves the knitting machine. handmade.
your hand throws the clay into the mold. handmade.
when grandma uses her knitting needles...that is handmade.
when grandpa made a chair, it was handmade.
when we make pots....they are handmade.
molds are not handmade.
period.
mel
you cannot reinvent truth. even when you want
it to come out your way.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Jean Cappadonna Nichols on fri 7 sep 01
Just out of curiosity, why is a plaster mold not considered just another
tool? As a clay sculptor, I use anything and everything available to
accomplish the end result. Why is a potter not allowed that privilege?
Jean
Lee Love on fri 7 sep 01
Truth in advertising is the key. Just tell the people how it is done and
let them choose. At the workshop, some of the mold made platters and bottles
cost more than the thrown ones.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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Jeffrey Taylor on fri 7 sep 01
Jean Cappadonna Nichols wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why is a plaster mold not considered just another
tool? As a clay sculptor, I use anything and everything available to
accomplish the end result. Why is a potter not allowed that privilege?
Jean
How many things do we consider privilege, when actually they are burdens..
Credit Card (if you don't use properly)
Automobile/Good roads (has destroyed the infrastructure of my small
village, people can now go to the city to shop, be entertained and
work.)
Cable television, separate the family on such important issues as
Allie McSqueal or O.R.
Computers, I should be following my schedule from my planner right
now...
This perhaps is an aside from the question of why potters are not
allowed the privilege of using molds... well we are allowed that
privilege, but with that comes the knowledge (I hope) that the use of
the word "hand-made" is taken away
Like someone buying on credit card and believing that they have
actually at that moment paid for the product. ( My credit cards are
resting in pieces)
Or calling 3 hours in front of the tube "quality" time with the
kids. (my tv is in the basement unplugged- oh and have no kids)
We live in a society where a vast number of the populace
unconsciously believe in reward without the labour involved, instant
gratification.
As a board member of the Saskatchewan Craft Council,
http://www.saskcraftcouncil.org we allow mold made work, only if the
molds have been designed by the craftsperson personally. They have a
"hand" in the entire process.
Hand painted,
Hand crafted,
Hand made,
Hand me the money,
Hand ball
Hand bag,
Hand me down,
Hand shake,
Handel's Messiah,
Hand picked,
Handy man
Hand gun,
Handle with care.
Jeffrey
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Cat Jarosz on fri 7 sep 01
Just out of curiosity, why is a plaster mold not considered just another
tool? As a clay sculptor, I use anything and everything available to
accomplish the end result. Why is a potter not allowed that privilege?
Jean
Hi Jean I think that depends on the mold more than anything else... I
personally have made 4 molds in my life but what I did with them really set
it aside from the mold... I made a goblet for those wooded stems you see
being sold at axners .... a friend had given them to me and I wanted to
see what I could do with it... I mixed up slip and added different
colorants to the slip and then poured / dumped /poured /dumped 5 layers of
slip... when it set up I then removed and started carving into the slip so
the different layers of color would show thru.... was kinda neat exercise
and learning experience in college... then I did a high relief tile that
would interlock with others of its ilk... did 2 different ones and on one I
wedged in sawdust and wow the bisque made em come out looking like
primitive fire orange to black to grey to white and I made a large
coffee table out of one of them... and last but not least I did a a big
pail shaped mold for my attempt at making a millifore' ( jane pieser )
thats a glass blowing technique and to try and explain it simply its like a
jelly roll when you cut a slice every slice is the same .... I did a huge
angel I used the mold to place the slices in and then using coils on the
inside beefed up the pot ...ps this was my attempts back in early 80's to
learn all I could about colored clays and there wasnt much for imfo at the
college I went to... we had bound periodicals of CM thats about as
technical as it got ... so it was all experimental on my part... I also
used that same mold as the bottom of quite a few huge pots that I did in
sections and stuck together... I personally think what I did with the
molds was ART and HAND MADE but I agree with Mel and Vince about
jiggering and molds that most folks could become proficient with in a few
months time given they did it full time... whereas learning to throw
plates that stack and fit each other takes yrs and yrs of developement..
your selling something totally different and if as some say you want to be
able to sell cheaper well be upfront and tell the customer why so they dont
go to the person down the row abit that has 40 dollar dinner plates and
feel they are getting ripped off .... you do the public no service and your
fellow craftsmen a disservice by not disclosing your method... we have
a few potters in our guild that do lots of jiggering along with wheel thrown
and they dont say a word to public ... a lot of potters get upset about
them not coming clean to the public ( I dont ) but see the point that they
should... its dishonest to" say nothing " and have it disguised in with
wheel thrown stuff...
If I still did stuff like the work I explained in the beginning of this
email I would be more than happy to disclose the method of making as it
would be part of its story ... CAT's 2 cents worth
Stephani Stephenson on fri 7 sep 01
This is definitely one of those questions where focusing a microscope
on only one aspect at a time, can serve to muddy rather than clarify
the issues.
I do see this as an area where there are shades of gray, yet at the end
of the day one does need to grasp the 'whole' of the picture.
GIVEN: use of technology by itself, solely, does NOT define the issue.
If that were so, the use of a wheel would preclude the term 'handmade'.
and that is, yes, absurd.
Here are ways I think of it. There are varying degrees.
When I make something, one of a kind, slab built sculpture, it is
handmade. Absolutely no question. technology involved : rolling pin, a
slab roller, a kiln. It is original, handmade by me ,start to finish.
When I make an original, i.e. a model, and then make a press mold and
produce a series of say, ten pieces from that press mold. I still
consider that handmade. Why? The truest and most time consuming part is
the making and sculpting of the model. It is from me, I utilize my
skills. But I follow up and I also make the mold and believe it or not,
especially with larger pieces, there is a good deal of craft involved
in hand pressing , and pulling a piece. You may not accept this, but it
is true. I have thrown on the wheel as well and I know the comparison of
skills involved. When you consider that the same individual created a
model, a mold and the pressings from that mold, and the glazing and
firing, I think it does absolutely deserve to be called handmade, in my
view. But again, a question of scale may determine the outside limits of
this.
An analogy. A carpenter makes six identical beautiful oak frames. She
cuts the same lengths of wood on the saw, she may uses preset guides on
the saw. In the end , if she has crafted them , made them through from
start to finish, she has labored in her craft and art, she calls them
handmade, and her customers and peers would agree. If that same frame is
pumped out in a factory, no, it is not handmade, though of course
someone's hands were involved somewhere along the way..
Again, is it an issue of scale?
Going further down the 'slippery slope'. If I make a model, for example;
that model is handmade. But if that model is sent to a factory, where
it is reproduced by the thousands, no , the resulting reproductions are
no longer 'handmade', common sense would tell us this.
The problem in these definitions lies in the middle ground. In those
studios which are not large scale factories yet which employ some
methods of production .
For example I have no problem defining my own personal work as handmade,
though I rarely use the term because it just isn't a factor, as I am not
placing items in a shop with a 'handmade' label, I am contracting with
people to do work which they know I am making, by hand ...(and heart of
course!)
But in the work I do with Alchemie studio, yes that is different, but
the degree of difference is hard to define. On the monochrome pieces, no
question, Though those are not exactly mass produced, they are "midi-
produced" or "mini-mass produced" (my terms, just now made them up...).
they are somewhere in between the factory and the solo artist.
I ask you to consider this, however. On our polychrome landscape tiles
the process is this. Laird designs them and does the rough sculpting on
the model. I do the finishing sculpting on the model. Laird and Joaquin
make the RAM press mold. Joaquin does the pressing and trimming. Laird
or I do the glazing, (which is much like doing a painting, it is
involved , done one at a time, it takes skill, a good eye, etc., and is
truly the selling point of the final product ) and he does the firing.
Sometimes what I will say is they they are hand glazed.They are not
handmade in the same vein as a true original...but I also am aware of
the personal skill involved from start to finish, in bringing a piece
to completion. Work one week at the studio, you will see that everything
is made by hands, eyes, and a good deal of backbone. and the same person
who creates, throws in a lot of the backbone and biceps as well....
It seems to me (once again), that our terminology is limiting. I would
love a more accurate term, yet I dread going into that territory where
paintings /prints have gone. (who is that painter that mass produces
those prints of cottages..... 'painter of light' or something....and the
only individuals who touch the things are described as 'hand
highlighter' or something? I have a picture of people at an assembly
line painting the same streak of white over and over). No, don't want to
go in that direction,!.
So what would you call it? I too, feel it is different than hand
throwing each pot or hand building each sculpture. I would never want to
blur the high ground, and the individual artist deserves that. Yet I
would love a designation which separated the small studio, where the
artist/craftsman is involved in every aspect of the process, from the
large factory.
Usually, and thankfully, the place you find that designation is not in
words, but in quality. Thankfully that is there to speak for itself, and
it is our visual, tactile sense which tells us, where labels fail.
sincerely
Stephani Stephenson
Carlsbad CA
mudmistress@earthlink.net
steph@alchemiestudio.com
http://www.alchemiestudio.com
Tim Lynch on fri 7 sep 01
> molds are not handmade.
> period.
> mel
> you cannot reinvent truth. even when you want
> it to come out your way.
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
I think it was my grandfather who told me, "The truth is the truth, whether
you believe it or not!"
Stephani Stephenson on fri 7 sep 01
A post script:
I agree with others on this topic, that truth is the best avenue.
Certain methods of production have a long and interesting history.
and should not be hidden.
Just do not misrepresent what you do.
these are handmade
these are slipcast
these are slipcast, in a limited edition of 100
these are RAM pressed
whatever it may be.
Or , in a lighter vein
"these pieces are individually pressed and pulled from hand made
molds, poured and constructed by the artist, from materials mass mined
and refined at the gypsum plant. The individual hand poured molds were
constructed both from impressions taken off of mass produced sea shells
and botanical materials, made by nature, and with hand sculpted
figures created by the artist, who was produced by mom and dad. The
pieces were handglazed and hand painted , using mass produced ceramic
pigments and brushes, and hand fired by a now very stiff pair of hands,
not to mention a pair of very green but puffy eyes, also courtesy of
the artist, mom and dad."
Stephani Stephenson
mudmistress@earthlink.net
steph@alchemiestudio.com
John & Susan Balentine on fri 7 sep 01
the original piece is handmade. The mold is a part of reproduction.
Jeffrey Taylor wrote:
> Jean Cappadonna Nichols wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, why is a plaster mold not considered just another
> tool? As a clay sculptor, I use anything and everything available to
> accomplish the end result. Why is a potter not allowed that privilege?
>
> Jean
>
> How many things do we consider privilege, when actually they are burdens...
> Credit Card (if you don't use properly)
> Automobile/Good roads (has destroyed the infrastructure of my small
> village, people can now go to the city to shop, be entertained and
> work.)
> Cable television, separate the family on such important issues as
> Allie McSqueal or O.R.
> Computers, I should be following my schedule from my planner right
> now...
>
> This perhaps is an aside from the question of why potters are not
> allowed the privilege of using molds... well we are allowed that
> privilege, but with that comes the knowledge (I hope) that the use of
> the word "hand-made" is taken away
> Like someone buying on credit card and believing that they have
> actually at that moment paid for the product. ( My credit cards are
> resting in pieces)
> Or calling 3 hours in front of the tube "quality" time with the
> kids. (my tv is in the basement unplugged- oh and have no kids)
> We live in a society where a vast number of the populace
> unconsciously believe in reward without the labour involved, instant
> gratification.
> As a board member of the Saskatchewan Craft Council,
> http://www.saskcraftcouncil.org we allow mold made work, only if the
> molds have been designed by the craftsperson personally. They have a
> "hand" in the entire process.
>
> Hand painted,
> Hand crafted,
> Hand made,
> Hand me the money,
> Hand ball
> Hand bag,
> Hand me down,
> Hand shake,
> Handel's Messiah,
> Hand picked,
> Handy man
> Hand gun,
>
> Handle with care.
>
> Jeffrey
>
> >
> >______________________________________________________________________________
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Jean Cappadonna Nichols on fri 7 sep 01
Cat,
your two-cents worth was worth more than that! Your experiments sound really
interesting and innovative. As to the mold, you used it as a tool and
expanded the realm of how it was meant to be used. When I think of the many
sculptors who use molds in intriguing ways to enrich what they do, it makes
me wonder if the handmade issue is really a non-issue. However, judging from
the responses of our Clayart potters, it is indeed an important clarification
and in need of disclosure.
Thanks for sharing your comments.
Jean
Richard Jeffery on fri 7 sep 01
some of my clocks are press moulded.
some are slab built, but the shapes are complex. so I use a plaster mould to
help the slabs set up with the right degree of shape in them - across 3
planes, generally.
Each clock made from 4 slabs cut to shape, luted together, but assembled in
a plaster mould.
that's hand made.
Richard
Bournemouth UK
www.TheEleventhHour.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Tim Lynch
Sent: 07 September 2001 17:50
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: handmade
> molds are not handmade.
> period.
> mel
> you cannot reinvent truth. even when you want
> it to come out your way.
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
I think it was my grandfather who told me, "The truth is the truth, whether
you believe it or not!"
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
vince pitelka on fri 7 sep 01
> the guy that pushes the buttons at the factory
> gets credit for using his hand. handmade.
Sorry Mel, but no way possible absolutely no not one shred of possiblity. I
love you Mel, and furthermore, I know for a fact that you yourself do not
really believe this. The term "handmade" carries very specific
connotations, and as was pointed out recently, hand made is diametrically
opposite to machine made.
Love and kisses -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Earl Brunner on fri 7 sep 01
Stephani Stephenson wrote:
> When I make an original, i.e. a model, and then make a press mold and
> produce a series of say, ten pieces from that press mold. I still
> consider that handmade. Why? The truest and most time consuming part is
> the making and sculpting of the model. It is from me, I utilize my
> skills.
This is like print making or "limited editions", Which anyway you look
at it is still less than indivudual one-of-a-kind making. Original art
work is one price, limited editions another and unlimited reproductions
different still.
>
> An analogy. A carpenter makes six identical beautiful oak frames. She
> cuts the same lengths of wood on the saw, she may uses preset guides on
> the saw. In the end , if she has crafted them , made them through from
> start to finish, she has labored in her craft and art, she calls them
> handmade, and her customers and peers would agree.
Not as good of an analogy as printmaking.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
tomsawyer on fri 7 sep 01
I've laid back for days but Mels post encouraged me to reply. I see a
difference if a piece is finished on a machine/mold and when something is
made in a machine/mold and attached/reassembled into/onto a larger piece.
Handmade to me means that the piece was made largely apart from jiggers and
molds and finished apart from them. If jiggers and molds are to be
considered hand made what about presses? Someone puts the clay into the
press.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
iandol on sat 8 sep 01
Is there a difference between "Handmade" and "Manufactured" which =
translates back from the Latin as "Handmade".
I suppose if you wished to be really picky, perhaps a pinchpot is one of =
the only truly hand made ceramic articles. All the rest involve some =
form of instrument or tool. From then on it only becomes a matter of =
precision or refinement.
Reminds me of an artist I saw once. All his works were hand painted. =
Never used a brush or knife, only his fingers, thumbs, palms and blades =
of his hands. What a demonstration of manual skill.
Best regards,
Ivor.
Kathy McDonald on sat 8 sep 01
Is a potter's wheel NOT a machine?
Just checking,,,
Kathy
http://www.willowtreepottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of vince pitelka
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 7:47 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: handmade
> the guy that pushes the buttons at the factory
> gets credit for using his hand. handmade.
Sorry Mel, but no way possible absolutely no not one shred of possiblity. I
love you Mel, and furthermore, I know for a fact that you yourself do not
really believe this. The term "handmade" carries very specific
connotations, and as was pointed out recently, hand made is diametrically
opposite to machine made.
Love and kisses -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on sat 8 sep 01
I would submit that the only pots that are truly "handmade" are pinch and
coil pots. All others use some mechanical or other kind of assistance.
Wheels, molds, presses all fall into this category. It is just a matter of
degree (and what it is YOU are doing). The argument will never be resolved
because each person will find justification for why the techinique they have
chosen should continue to be called 'handmade", while claiming that the
choices of others are not.
Kathi LeSueur
gadget on sat 8 sep 01
I sincerely hope that no one on this list does a demo and spouts off
about handmade while there's a old time machinest in the audience. You
will probably learn that a wheel is a machine and you will probably
lose sales.
There are six basic MACHINES in this world. The wedge,the inclined
plane, the wheel, the lever and fulcrum, the screw, and the pulley. If
you use any one of these MACHINES, in any form or shape to make your
pot, then your pot is not handmade. I repeat: It is not handmade!
No opinion. Just fact. Look up the word,machine, in any dictionary or
encyclopedia. Don't take my word for it. Look in the books.
Call it hand thrown, hand built, hand pressed, whatever, but it is not
handmade. Be honest.
There is very little difference in flipping a switch on an engine
lathe and flipping a switch on a potters wheel.
Machines! I love em!!! I'm a human being. Our existance is almost
totally based on the fact that we humans have learned and adapted
these machines to do things that we can't do. Why deny it? Try tilling
a garden and planting a crop with your fingers. Try making a pot
without using a machine. Damn near impossible.
Some pinch pots may be the exception. I've tried and it's hard to keep
from cutting or scoring or not to use a machine. Believe it or not,
that little wire that we all use is a machine, so is a pin tool, or a
knife. They are all wedges. A table is just a table until you put that
wire on it and use it to cut clay, then it becomes a wedging table.
There is a reason for the name
Sorry to pick on Mel, but you're wrong!. If I take a rock, or
something, anything, stick it in some plaster or sand, then slipcast
it, using no machines, that piece is handmade. The reproductions that
follow may be lesser in quality, but they are still handmade. No pot
thrown on the wheel comes close to this purity. I should say that I
don't slipcast, but if I want to tout my work as handmade, that's the
method that I'll use.
.
Vince was right. Anyone can be artist. Whether they produce art or not
is entirely up to the viewer. No need to lose sleep over that. True
beauty comes in the craft. Whatever it is. Painting, sculpture,
pottery, ...ditch digging. A craftsman is one who is skilled at their
craft. Ever watch a really good back hoe operator? The hole is just
a hole, dug well and to specs, but it is in the beauty of the digging
that makes one pause. The melding of man and machine, each working in
harmony. Beautiful! I watched one get down off his machine, grab a
shovel ( a basic machine..primitive) and work that hole over. If I
could have sealed that hole up and put it into a museum, I'd be
famous! It was a work of art! Every scoop of the bucket.. each shovel
mark fit together in a harmony that I rarely see in a man made object.
Then they poured concrete into it. That was its function.
It was just a good hole until he took a primitive machine and turned
it into a work of art that communicated something to me. He was a
master craftsman!
Ever watch a master carpenter? I got to work with a master carpenter,
once. We put together a fireplace mantle that I thought was damned
good. Then he took his chiesels and planes, all primitive, basic
machines, and turned it into a work of art. He was a great dancer.
Ever watch the Jackson Pollock movie? No machines used. Just him, a
stick, paint, and the canvas. I'm not fond of his paintings, but the
melding of him and his equipment and the dance that it took to produce
the art, is burned into my memory and it shows in his work.
Ever watch a master potter throw? Every movement, fluid, in harmony,
no missed steps. Primitive machines: a wheel, a wire, a stick, a human
being and clay, each performing its function in harmony.
Ever watch a master potter glaze or fire a kiln? Same dance.
The pots, the paintings, the holes,the mantles...the art... are just
reminders of the dance. Communication with the world that a master
craftsman was here, on the face of the earth, performing their dance.
It is the intimacy and the skill of the dance, that produces great
work.
Clay, is perhaps, the most intimate of all art media. The more
complicated the machinery, the less communication. It's like listening
to a poor recording of Pavorati on a static filled radio station and
being front row center at the Met. The difference is astounding.
An artist may become a good craftsman or even a master craftsman, but
a master craftsman is always an artist.
Words and titles place no meaning to the work itself, only the
intimacy and communication between the work and other humans.
I stand by my words. Most pottery is not handmade, but the machinery
that one chooses to use and the skill with which one uses those
machines, defines the works place in the world.
Have fun,
Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: mel jacobson
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Friday, September 07, 2001 5:47 AM
Subject: handmade
>we all know the answer.
>there is no discussion.
>we can wax and wane for months.
>handmade is handmade.
>
>or we can start to consider:
>
>the guy that pushes the buttons at the factory
>gets credit for using his hand. handmade.
>
>your hand moves the knitting machine. handmade.
>
>your hand throws the clay into the mold. handmade.
>
>when grandma uses her knitting needles...that is handmade.
>when grandpa made a chair, it was handmade.
>when we make pots....they are handmade.
>
>molds are not handmade.
>period.
>mel
>you cannot reinvent truth. even when you want
>it to come out your way.
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
_________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
vince pitelka on sat 8 sep 01
> I would submit that the only pots that are truly "handmade" are pinch and
> coil pots. All others use some mechanical or other kind of assistance.
> Wheels, molds, presses all fall into this category. It is just a matter of
> degree (and what it is YOU are doing). The argument will never be resolved
> because each person will find justification for why the techinique they
have
> chosen should continue to be called 'handmade", while claiming that the
> choices of others are not.
Kathi -
I agree that the arguement will never be fully resolved, but in order to at
least move in the right direction it is essential to maintain some degree of
reason. Jiggering machines, slip casting processes, and ram presses produce
absolutely identical pieces by wholly mechanical means. The operator or
finisher might expend a little effort sponging off the mold lines or doing
other finishing processes, but unless individually jiggered, cast, or
pressed components are assembled by hand into a more elaborate piece, the
finished product cannot be called handmade, as indicated by the generally
accepted dictionary definitions of handmade. The potter's wheel is a
machine, but it simply provides a rotary motion, and the hands of the potter
do everything else, and every single object is always different to some
degree, regardless of the skill level of the potter. To say that the potter
cannot call wheel-thrown pots handmade would be like saying that the
woodworker cannot call a cabinet handmade because the boards were cut on a
power saw. In order to come close to some workable definition in this
discussion we need to at least maintain a reasonable perspective.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Karen Sullivan on sun 9 sep 01
Ivor....
Once someone asked my how I achieved the specific
curve in the line of a bowl....what tool did you
use was the question...My response was to hold up
my index finger as evidence of the tool used....
bamboo karen
on 9/7/01 12:30 PM, iandol at iandol@TELL.NET.AU wrote:
> Is there a difference between "Handmade" and "Manufactured" which translates
> back from the Latin as "Handmade".
> I suppose if you wished to be really picky, perhaps a pinchpot is one of the
> only truly hand made ceramic articles. All the rest involve some form of
> instrument or tool. From then on it only becomes a matter of precision or
> refinement.
> Reminds me of an artist I saw once. All his works were hand painted. Never
> used a brush or knife, only his fingers, thumbs, palms and blades of his
> hands. What a demonstration of manual skill.
> Best regards,
> Ivor.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
iandol on mon 10 sep 01
Dear Bamboo Karen,
Look out for my post about the nature of the hand in responses to =
Vince's post. My hands are my most important creative tools after my =
Brain. In fact, I regard fingers and thumbs as being extensions of that =
grey matter in the same way that eyes are.
I form the curve on the lip of a mug with my thumb so I understand your =
notion.
All the best,
Ivor.
Steve Mills on mon 10 sep 01
In message , Jean Cappadonna Nichols writes
>Just out of curiosity, why is a plaster mold not considered just another
>tool? As a clay sculptor, I use anything and everything available to
>accomplish the end result. Why is a potter not allowed that privilege?
>
>Jean
I've always said *All's fair in love, war, and Pottery* :-)
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Tony Ferguson on sat 19 dec 09
Hand made =3D3D made with hands and probably some tools, a kiln, some wood =
or=3D
electricity, etc.
If you are honest about your work and the process of making it, why the deb=
=3D
ate?=3DA0 It seems the debate is really about truthfulness.
Tell people what the process is "I use molds, and hands, and tools, etc. or=
=3D
whatever you do" and let them make the choice as to whether or not they va=
=3D
lue the work or the process or both.
To mis-represent your work, well, that is a person's choice.=3DA0 If that i=
s =3D
what you do, then you are not an artist, but something else.
You can be a true artist, or a wanna be artist, a hobbyist, a dabbler, what=
=3D
ever you want to label yourself...but honesty about your work, what it is a=
=3D
nd isn't, is=3D0A something we can all respect, wherever you're at, whateve=
r =3D
you do.=3DA0=3D20
And if you find yourself feeling like you can't be honest about your work, =
=3D
well, the question is should you be doing it then? And more importantly, wh=
=3D
y are you doing it?
Tony Ferguson
Cheers,
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...=3D20
http://www.tonyferguson.net
http://www.fergyphoto.com
Workshops, Websites, Film making
& Online Digital Photography Training
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Mayssan Farra on sun 20 dec 09
Happy Holidays whichever one you celebrate.
I have been enjoying this thread :) It seems to me though, customers when t=
hey see my work they make a big wave with their hand saying "You made all t=
his?" and that is all they are interested in. that they are talking to the =
person who made it not a clerk but the actual artist and they seem so proud=
if I remember them the next time. Very few will ever ask about the process=
,which I tell truthfully and in detail until their eyes glaze over:).
Any way; for me, the customer is the most important feed back as they put t=
heir money where their mouth is and all they care about is who made it not =
necessarily how.
Mayssan, Loving the early white Christmas we are having here in Charleston =
WV
Mayssan Shora Farra
http://www.clayvillepottery.com
http://clayette.blogspot.com
From: Tony Ferguson
>
> Tell people what the process is "I use molds, and hands, and tools, etc. =
or
> whatever you do" and let them make the choice as to whether or not they v=
alue
> the work or the process or both.
Dinah Snipes Steveni on fri 26 nov 10
Mel nailed it. End of story....;) Don't we wish.
Dinah
http://www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
jd.steveni@comcast.com
Plein Air Washington
FB Dianthus Visual Arts Page
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