handmade?

updated tue 11 sep 01

CNW on thu 1 apr 99

I tend to fall in with Vince on the Hand-made opinion, if it just come s
straight out of the press without being altered I personally don't think it
handmade. Well made, well designed yes but not handmade.
I have admired a paticular potter's work for years and still like the shapes
and glazes. But i was disapointed to learn that those pieces with the
fingermarks showing were ram-pressed. The finger marks make me feel
intentional deception is involved. If he honestly feels ram-pressed is
handmade then why put the marks in?
BUT then there are the jewelers that use pre-formed pieces soldered together
and other such things (a silversmithing catalog is an eye-opener). And then
there is..............Dale Chihuly(sp?).
It is part of every type of art, craft not just ours. I look at magizines
for all sorts of 'handmade art' and learn that things are not as they seem.
"Only the hairdresser knows for sure."

Celia in rainy NC, wishing that the student/faculty show was hung and that
the kiln was cool.

Kathi LeSueur on fri 2 apr 99

In a message dated 4/1/99 10:29:32 AM, you wrote:

>But i was disapointed to learn that those pieces with the
>fingermarks showing were ram-pressed. The finger marks make me feel
>intentional deception is involved. If he honestly feels ram-pressed is
>handmade then why put the marks in?

Every potter I know who presses puts every piece on the wheel to finish it.
They hand trim and finish often causings significant differences from piece to
piece. Those finger marks could be the result of that finishing rather than an
attempt to convince you and others that the piece was hand thrown.

Kathi LeSueur

bgioia10 on wed 17 may 00

Hi ClayArt Listies,
I'd like to introduce myself.
My name is Bruce.
I've played with clay now and again at different points in my life
always finding it to be a total thrill but for whatever reasons
considered it as something I would get into "one day".
"One day" happened around four years back at 33 years of age.

My work alternates between figurative sculpture and pots...
both hand built and on the wheel.
Prefering the freedom of form with handbuilding
but also enjoying the strong"centering" effect of wheel work.
I do mostly Raku and seek a "timeless" or ancient quality...
fragmented forms with old antique patina-ish looking glazes.

I am motivated to respond to the following statement
==========

> The problem always comes down to: at what point is it hand made and not
hand
> made?
==========

I use press moulds to reproduce my sculpture and hand built pots.
On average spending around 15 to 30 hrs on the "original"
An additional 4-6 hrs on the mould.
Maybe an hour or more on the "reproduction"
My glaze developement is an on going and unpredictable process.
What is fantastic on a test tile mostly is disappointing
on my "piece" and vise versa.
Therefore my pieces are for the most part the tests on which
the exploration of a glaze "line" or development takes place.
Out of aproximately a dozen pieces maybe only one or two
make the grade and are considered "successful".
By no means do I consider iether of the two dead nor identical.
My energy and creative solutions (and not least, serendipity) applied to the
"twins" are far greater than if I just went ahead with a standard/consistant
glaze on the original model.

To define the difference between handmade and mechanically assisted
is not the issue.
I believe the question to be more directly related to the creative process.
When does a piece cease to have the creative force contained
within its expression?
I think that would be when the mechanical, or the human hand for that
matter,
ceases to function in a way that demands its possesor to use his/her's
intelligence.
If you throw pots all day long thinking about the taxes or whatever,
use the brush for galze application in a similar fashion etc, etc.
I dare say that that pot is a product of mechanisation and is not
"hand built" in the true sense of the word.

Just my thoughts on the topic.
Bruce

Earl Brunner on wed 5 sep 01

So if I'm pouring the slip with my very own hands I'm "making it?"

Tommy Humphries wrote:

> Sorry, but if you are jiggering something, are you not making it???
>
> Tommy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Poburka"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Handmade?
>
>
>
>> Dear Richard,
>>
>> Nope...
>>
>> 'Hand-Jiggered' maybe...
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>> Las Vegas...
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.


--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

Richard Urban on wed 5 sep 01

I would classify jiggering/jollying as handmade. Not thrown obviously but
still handmade. What do you think?

Philip Poburka on wed 5 sep 01

Dear Richard,

Nope...

'Hand-Jiggered' maybe...



Phil
Las Vegas...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Urban"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 7:24 AM
Subject: Handmade?


> I would classify jiggering/jollying as handmade. Not thrown obviously but
> still handmade. What do you think?
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

L. P. Skeen on wed 5 sep 01

No way. That's machine made.

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Urban
Subject: Handmade?


> I would classify jiggering/jollying as handmade. Not thrown obviously but
> still handmade. What do you think?
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Janet Kaiser on wed 5 sep 01

It is getting to the point where anything made from
"real clay" which is manipulated, turned, cleaned,
fired, decorated, glazed, etc. or (in other words)
human hands have been active throughout the making
process, must be considered "handmade". Whether
jollied, jiggered, mould-made, slab-built, coiled or
thrown it is all handmade, because either one potter or
several people have been active throughout the process.

I was only thinking about this yesterday... Here the
opening sentences of an article in the current Ceramic
Review (No. 191 Sept/Oct 2001) which triggered this
navel-gazing and has resulted in a personal shift of
perspective:

"A thrower effortlessly produces pots in time
immemorial fashion. Nearby a turner working on a lathe
converts them when leatherhard to forms with crisp,
clean profiles and a softly burnished finish. In the
Visitor Centre at Wedgwood's Barlaston factory,
Stoke-on-Trent, hand skills and concern for the
individual pot take centre stage."

" Production on the factory floor of one of the world's
largest and most distinguished ceramic manufacturing
companies, is very different. Here high tech robots
produce dust pressed saucers in seconds when a conveyor
belt whizzes them straight into kiln, completing the
path from making to biscuit firing in forty-five
minutes. Mechanical arms stick handles on cups and a
multi-bumping machine applies decoration with
astonishing speed. A small number of making processes
are carried out by hand. A lone thrower still makes
forms for a turner to convert into knobs and suchlike
in Jasper, while paintresses carry out banding and
apply some transfer decoration. Cups are jolted and
turned by hand, but the largest part of production is
fully automated, with staff watching to ensure nothing
goes wrong".

From: "Quiet Revolution: Emmanual Cooper applauds the
innovation and imagination of the Wedgwood Design
Studio"


Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk

----- Original Message -----

> I would classify jiggering/jollying as handmade. Not
thrown obviously but
> still handmade. What do you think?

Tommy Humphries on wed 5 sep 01

Absolutely...

The jigger knife/mold is simply another tool, as is the wheel, any ribs you
use etc. Handmade means it was made with ones hands. The jigger wheel is
certainly in one of the outer spirals of the "handmade" galaxy, but it is
made with your hands nonetheless. Now a pot made using a hydraulic press is
right there next to the jiggered pot, but it is definitely over the line..
not made with the hands at all,(unless you count putting the clay in the
die, and pressing the button). Similar but ohhh, so different.

I guess, that I consider jiggering to be to throwing, what pressmolding is
to handbuilding.

Here there will be many differing opinions...hopefully we can all remain
civil in this discussion.

Tommy


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Urban"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:24 AM
Subject: Handmade?


> I would classify jiggering/jollying as handmade. Not thrown obviously but
> still handmade. What do you think?
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Tommy Humphries on wed 5 sep 01

Sorry, but if you are jiggering something, are you not making it???

Tommy


----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Poburka"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Handmade?


> Dear Richard,
>
> Nope...
>
> 'Hand-Jiggered' maybe...
>
>
>
> Phil
> Las Vegas...
>

Terrance Lazaroff on thu 6 sep 01

Scott;

You have a lot of good statements in your response. I do however have to
agree with your geometry prof. When one is proving in geometry, one must
only use a straight edge, a compass and a marking device. Geometry is a
construction of logic and thus must be proved as such. You were probably
moving into the trigonometry area of math. You were establishing distance
and in geometry there are only units of undertimined lengths. I got burned
the same way when I tried to trisect an angle. Can't be done.

Terrance

Richard Urban on thu 6 sep 01

Earl,

Handmade is important to me for many many reasons and I could get pretty
philosophical about it. But I don't really want to get into all that right
now.One reason it's important to me is because it's important to my customers
and to my other proffesional associates, not to mention just about all my
friends and relatives. I guess you might say it's kind of a way of life.

But mark my words if I do end up jiggering plates I'd have no intention
whatsoever of deceiving anyone about it. I agree wholeheartedly with what
many have said about honesty in advertising. If someone wanted to know how my
plate was made I'd have no qualms about telling them it was jigged or about
how it was decorated. And at this point in the conversation I'm leaning
toward calling it handmade. However I'd have to wait and see how the plates
came out. If they looked and felt too commercial compared to the rest of my
stuff then I'd probably just drop the whole project.

I don't want my things just to look handmade. I want them to feel handmade. I
want them to be handmade. So I'll just have to wait and see. I'll play with
it and see if it feels right. Thanks for your comments, all.

Richard

F.Melville on thu 6 sep 01

Earl wrote:
>So if I'm pouring the slip with my very own hands I'm "making it?"
There is a well-known Canadian artist who was born in this town where I=20
live. He (his employees) now make several thousand very expensive wall=20
tiles a year as well as other things such as picture frames. Publicity=20
handouts about his tiles, which are collected by 'the stars', state that=20
they are 'hand-poured plaster'.
By the way, this person in my opinion really is/was an excellent=20
artist/sculptor, but his talent for business is even greater.......
Fran=E7oise

http://indalopottery.tripod.com

Philip Poburka on thu 6 sep 01

Ummm...'yes'...with a 'jigger'...being thus, 'Jigger-made'...as it were.

If the 'Hand' had 'made' it, then I should suppose it to be thus,
'Hand-Made'.

Now I take the fruits of the 'Jigger' to be honorable and allright all day
long.
And it is one way to get the things 'made' and on their way into the World.

Now, just when, where or to whom this ''distinction' would be of interest,
or maybe import...is too a consideration.

But as a distinction, I should rather err on the side of honoring it, than
not.

Maybe it matter in some contexts, and in others it don't...

But...that would be my read on the thing...just as that.

Phil
Las Vegas...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Humphries"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Handmade?


> Sorry, but if you are jiggering something, are you not making it???
>
> Tommy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Poburka"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Handmade?
>
>
> > Dear Richard,
> >
> > Nope...
> >
> > 'Hand-Jiggered' maybe...
> >
> >
> >
> > Phil
> > Las Vegas...
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Randy Peckham on thu 6 sep 01

Call it what you want. It is all a matter of point of viewing.
I remember reading somewhere that some southwestern native americans that
make pots by traditional coil method look down on other native american
potters that use a wheel. I use both an electric wheel, and a kickwheel,
electric whels at my shop, and a kickwheel at home. I have had a few
people come in, and say that they would never use an electric wheel,
authenticity, feel etc, but they obviously looked down on anyone who used
an electric wheel, whatever.

I also use an electric kiln, with a controller. I like the effects it
gives me, as well as the ease of use, and the precision of control. I know
there are people that look down on that. I would like to have a gas kiln,
for reduction, a wood kiln for random ash deposits, a salt kiln, and a raku
kiln, but for now I will use my electric kilns.

I also have poured molded bisque for people to glaze. We do none of the
pouring, or cleaning of the pieces here, not enough room. It all comes in
bisqued. I can get a great selection, that changes, without the overhead.
Some people come in, and want to pour, and clean their own pieces, they
consider that part of the handmade process. I think there are people that
would not consider that handmade at all. Different point of view.

I think you are right, you probably don't want to call it hand thrown, some
do. I can buy "hand-thrown" bowls from my bisque supplier, but they are
really jiggered, it is obvious if you look at a stack of them. Identical
throwing rings on the outside, and concentric throwing rings on the inside.
I also remember someone on clayart showing the design for a device that
helped to open the clay. This device is very close to a jigger, but I
would consider work done with it as hand thrown, a little more mechanical
assistance than mine, but still hand-thrown. I guess where the jigger
pushes the envelope of the hand-thrown description, is the form you use on
the outside.

I have actually toyed with the idea of making a device to center clay. I
have access to ball-screws, linear rails, and motors. The lab at work is
packed with the stuff, and we regularly dispose of tons of it to make room
for more. Sometimes I can't resist bringing some treasures destined for
the dump home. I am a pack-rat, and my wife Dana is very understanding,
mostly anyway. If I designed a gantry, with a paddle on the side, and one
on the top. The top would have a z-axis(up, and down), , and an x-axis
which would go left, and right. It would also need a water drip, I have
some nice 24v pumps. I could make a very rigid device for centering a lump
of clay, manually controlled with a couple of switches, or I could use a
computer, put in the mass of the clay, as well as what general shape muffin
that I want in the end, and let a computer control it. I probably could
mount another z-axis with a small dowel, to open up the hole, and pull it
out, to where I need it. Then I would have a centered opened mass of clay
ready to pull the walls up. It would probably sttill qualify as hand
thrown, but I would feel a little funny using it. Probably wouldn't feel
funny selling the device though. I don't have a design thought out for
pulling up the wall. That one seems a little tricky. I think it would
require two z-axis, each of which would have their own x-axis, and water
delivery system, as well as another x-axis to bring the whole dual z-x
mechnism to where you want. Probaly would want to control wheel rpm at
that point. No reason why it wouldn't be possible. Just require control
of a bunch of different variables, methods of water removal etc., but I
think at that point it would violate my definition of hand-thrown, and I
wouldn't be able to bring myself to sell the wares as hand-thrown. It
would also add something to clay that I am trying to escape from. I think
if it were sitting in my store window, it would probably draw a crowd
though.

We all have in our heads a definition of handmade, art, functional,
professional, potter etc.. Whatever. Make what you like, and call it,
and yourself what you want. Don't lie, but if you think you are potter, or
your work is art, or handmade, it probably is, at least in your opinion.
If you feel funny calling your work or yourself something, don't.

Richard Urban on thu 6 sep 01

The reason I posted the original question is because I was thinking of
jiggering dinner plates. This for a number of reasons some of which are: 1) I
believe the decoration of a dinner plate to be is it's main event since there
really isn't much of a profile in the item. 2) I don't exactly enjoy throwing
plates. 3) Plates are enough of a problem child so that anything making the
process a little easier would be a great relief and 4) I could then offer the
item at a reasonable price.

I'm sure there is plenty to take issue with here but my main concern is
remaining true to my craft by staying within the perameters of "handmade".
That is essentially why I asked for feedback on the subject. Thank you all
for your input.

Scott Ackerman on thu 6 sep 01

I have read much of this discussion with amusement. It reminds me of High
School geometry class. The teacher had said that there were some things that
the classical Greeks found were impossible to do in regards to constucting
geometric proofs. One of them was called "squaring the circle", which means;
given a circle with a certain area, construct a square with the same area.
So being the young cocky individual that I was, I decided that the greeks
(being 2000 years old) were a bit behind the technology curve. So a couple
of days later I informed the instructor that I had indeed "squared the
circle". He then asked me to show him my proof. I did, and he immediately
replied that I had "cheated", the "True Greek Mathematician" would have only
used a compass, a straight edge and a marking device. You see because I had
made marks on my straightedge with my pencil, it was no longer considered a
straightedge but a measuring device.

I give you this story only because I am sure that this same discussion
happened the first time someone used a potters wheel to make a clay vessel.
All the other "Potters" were purely using hand built techniques and I am
sure that they cringed at the prospect of cheating and using a potters
wheel. Of course I am sure the same argument erupted the minute someone used
coiling techniques over making a "pinch pot". And while we are at it what
about the dreaded use of "paddles" and "smoothing stones"? And then there
was the advent of electricity that made it easier for someone to use a
wheel, why that's paramount to using a golf cart in the PGA circuit. I guess
the ultimate question is; how much do we want to slice this pie up in order
to justify the way we have decided to produce the forms that we intention?

Having only been throwing pots (notice I will not refer to myself as a
potter) for a little over a year, I expect that there a lot of subtle
nuances that I am missing. So please forgive my naivete on this subject.

Scott B. Ackerman
Synergy Graphics, LLC
2290 E. Prospect Rd.
Suite 2
Fort Collins, CO 80525
(970)407-8480

John Baymore on thu 6 sep 01

Oh boy....... this one comes up every couple of years . Can't wait =
to
see the responses this time around. Ought to be lively.

To me what is most important in the ongoing and everpresent "what is
handcrafted" debate is what I tend to call "truth in advertising". If yo=
u
jigger, jolly, slipcast, or hydraulic press............ be honest and
upfront about it. If the customer (not just the shop owner/buyer) knows
how the piece is formed and still wants to buy it.......... what's the
fuss? =


Misrepresentation is the REAL issue. Sometimes "misrepresentation" is no=
t
overt or intentional.

I think that where the potential problem in this debate lies, is in the
MATCHUP between a customer's expectations of what the word "handcrafted"
means to him/her and the reality of the execution of the piece of work th=
ey
are buying. If a piece is being sold in the environment of
"handcraft"............ craft fair, craft gallery, potters studio,
etc......... then the person buying it PROBABLY expects that it is
"handmade". Whatever THAT means...... since there is no "legal" trade
definition in use. What their personal definition of "handmade" is, is
what matters to THEM. Their personal "handcraft" yardstick carries the k=
ey
to whether there is a potential problem with forming methods or not. =


Many non-craftspeople have never seriously evaluated this definition they=

carry around inside themselves. Their schooling probably never brought t=
he
subject up. So they probably ASSUME (we all know about U and ME ) tha=
t
if they are told something is "handcrafted" by someone who is supposed to=

KNOW about "handcraft"......... that it IS.

Unfortunately, the words "jiggering", "jollying", "hydraulic pressing", o=
r
"slip casting", probably mean diddly to the VAST majority of potential
buyers of claywork. So simply saying to them "This piece is hydraulic
pressed.", probably does not really convey the reality of the forming
method to the consumer. Therefore, this in itself is not a really genuin=
e
solution to any "truth in advertising" issue that might be invloved.

Personally, I think that if you had a demo of each possible type of
clayworking forming technique set up and had bunches of general consumers=

rank them in order as to their level of "handcraftedness" (which of cour=
se
would be tested against their own personal measuring stick)........ they=

would get ranked in the following order (1 being "Most Handcrafted" and =
6
being "Least Handcrafted"):

1: Pinch, coil, slab (etc.) handbuilding,
2. Throwing
3. Press/slump/ hump molding
4. Jiggering/Jollying
5. Slipcasting
6. Hydraulic Pressing

I think that if you asked those same consumers to then "draw a line"
somewhere on that list to separate what they felt was "handcrafted" from
"not handcrafted" or "mass produced", the vast majority would put that li=
ne
between "Press/slump/hump molding" and "Jiggering/jollying", with a secon=
d
MUCH lower group putting the line between "Throwing" and "Press/slump/hum=
p
molding". =


The placing of that line is what I think the EXPECTATION of "handcrafted=
"
would be in an EDUCATED group of craft buyers ...... meaning that they
REALLY understand something about the various forming techniques, not jus=
t
have heard the words.

To me, "handcrafted" is about the level of handworking skills that are
necessary in DIRECTLY producing the piece (moldmaking skills aside). If=

the process being used requires little manual clayworking skill be aquire=
d
to preform the work......... then the "handcrafted" nature of the pieces=

produced becomes somewhat diminished. As part of my 32 year clayworking
education, I've used a jigger, jolly, and hydraulic press......I've dons
some consulting in industry......... I know how little actual skill an
operator NEEDS to produce a piece. I've done slipcasting........ it too
requires little hand skills IF you are simply casting a piece for
reproduction with no major altering or assembly involved.

Yes.... mold making for reproduction is high craft and takes a LOT of ski=
ll
to do well. The molds themselves are the product of a high level of
craftspersonship. But if this debate is about moldmaking and molds....
then most all manufactured goods should qualify as "handcrafted". I
personally don't buy that. =


All of these "newer" forming methods (including throwing and pressmolding=
)
were developed to increase the speed of production of the clayworker over=

totally forming the clay without any tools. Clay's root history was in
producing utilitarian objects for day to day use in life's
activities........ the more pots you could produce, the better day to day=

life could be. Speed of production IN THAT CONTEXT is a reasonable
goal....and it makes the potter's life easier and more profitable. The
modern day robots of the contemporary pottery factory that Janet's post
mentions are simply a logical next step to this idea (and of course the
pursuit of profits ). Handcraft claywork these days is NOT exactly in=

that context anymore. Plastic has taken that issue over, and the small
remainder os day to day necessity is handled by robot production lines.

One big DIFFERENCE between (throwing and pressmolding) and (jiggering,
jollying, slip casting, and hydraulic pressing) however is the very clear=

intent in developing the latter techniques in which SEMI-SKILLED laborers=

could be utilized to quickly and exactly reproduce wares designed by
others. You don't need to have anywhere near the same level of clayworki=
ng
skills to produce objects by these methods (In doubt....... just see the
ads for these devices). These developments opened up a great labor pool
for the early pottery industry that couldn't find enough skilled potters
and/or didn't want to pay them what their skills demanded. The modern
industrial robots are again a logical next extension of this....... and
they don't demand higher wages, health benefits, get sick, or come in hun=
g
over on Monday morning .

There is one well known potter that sells his work in craft shops and cra=
ft
galleries all over. His forms are well designed and his glazes are KILLE=
R.
Whenever I see his work in a shop I make it a point of asking the
salespeople if the work is hand thrown. They ALWAYS say "yes" (and I mea=
n
ALWAYS). These pieces are NOT hand thrown. But they are consistently
represented as that to the public. The sales people always act surprised=

when I tell them how they are made. Maybe the salespeople are the victim=
s
of a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach, maybe they have never been told by=

the store buyer, maybe the store buyer has never asked and doesn't know,
maybe they could simply care less about how the stuff is made....just get=

the money. Who knows? But I bet that the CONSUMERS paying "handcrafted=
"
prices might be interested in knowing how they were actually made....and
some of them might reconsider their potential purchases. =


BTW.......... These are nicely designed and carefully executed
pieces......... of what used to be usually called "art pottery" produced =
in
small factories and sold in a somewhat different "market". I like the
pots.... I just don't think they are appropriately marketed to the public=
=

Put it in a Lechmere department store next to the Lenox and the Noritake
and I'd have no problem at all .

For me personally, in my own work, jiggering, jollying, and hydraulic
pressing as forming methods require too little clay handworking skills to=

finish the pieces for me to represent them as "handcrafted". Slipcasting=
,
if it is not utilized to produce form elements that are greatly manipulat=
ed
would be in the same category. Nor do I feel that I could sell pre-made
bisque wares that I decorated and glazed as "handcrafted" by me. Nor wou=
ld
I design a form and have it contract manufactured and then sell it as
"handcrafted" in handcraft venues.

One man's opinion. That, and a buck and a half will buy you a cup of
coffee..... in a styrofoam cup. Guess I'm sort of a purist, a dinosaur,
and a potential curmudgeon . =


And, as Tom said,....... hopefully this discussion will all remain civil.=



Best,

.............................john


PS: ......Being heavily Japanese influenced..... I am pretty comfortable=

with the idea of the "workshop tradition" ...... with many people working=

communally to produce a body of work. I don't really chose to do that
(much) with my own work...... but I have no problem with those who do.

PPS: ....... See the "Handcrafted" section of my website for more of my
thoughts if you really care about this.

PPPS: .......You'll likely find a lot from lots of people in the CLAYART=

archives too if you look.)


John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA

603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)

JohnBaymore.com

JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com

"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"=

Tommy Humphries on thu 6 sep 01

I think that one of the sticking points in these conversations is the
definition of "made"...at which point does the human interaction with the
clay (or whatever medium) constitute handmade.
Do you need an intimate interaction from start to finish, or is it just the
action on the wheel, that is important? What about the potter that throws a
clay disk, then puts it in a press to impress a design into it for a wall
hanging...or a sculptor working with found objects. Are their works more or
less hand made because of the extra processes or the fact that the art is
composed of commercially produced parts?

To answer your question, yes... if you are doing all the work by hand,
pouring, fettling, sponging, glazing and firing, I would consider it
handmade. However if it was in an industrial setting with automated filling
and emptying of the molds, the pots going through an automatic finishing
machine, and a robot glazer, well then it is not in the least handmade.
Remember too that many potters make their own molds, from their own original
work... this would make the cast pieces handmade reproductions.

A mold is a tool, just like the wheel...

Tommy Humphries...
veteran fighter for the handmade, whatever it may be!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Brunner"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Handmade?


> So if I'm pouring the slip with my very own hands I'm "making it?"

Philip Poburka on thu 6 sep 01

Dear Richard, et All...

So far as this seems to me, moreso a question of ethics than one simply of
nomenclature per-se, and as it involves the presentation of honest work to
people whose impressions of it may have some importance...

Ones 'Audience' must be construed TO their highest denominator, lest,
leaving them out, they shall be pleased to return the favour.

If it were me, and it is not, I would say in some manner, that I 'make'
these and do so in a manner known as 'Jigging', which has held rightful
favor for many generations now, in the traditional labors of making of
Plates.

That I decorate them one at a time, and all the rest of the work as may be
mentioned briefly which a person might enjoy TO know...to allow them some
notion of how, what they are looking at, got born...they will get-it, that
you did these and that they are your babies...and that there is plenty to
them.

And anyone who does 'know-their-stuff' will also get-it, that you are
straight, careful and proud of your honest efforts, and happy to let them
fly on their own merits without evokeing ambiguity or it's implication.

That is my notion on this question...

Which is not to say that this 'solves' what may remain certain, or elusive,
questions OF...
It solves well enough, the elimination of probable connotative ambiguity in
your presentation and your work...and of the you who is presenting
them...eliminates an ambiguity which suggests as well, that you may be
'hedgeing' over something which does not need to be apologised for or hedged
about.

Jig 'em, say so, and be proud of it...wholesome enough!

Phil
Las Vegas...



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Urban"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Handmade?


> The reason I posted the original question is because I was thinking of
> jiggering dinner plates. This for a number of reasons some of which are:
1) I
> believe the decoration of a dinner plate to be is it's main event since
there
> really isn't much of a profile in the item. 2) I don't exactly enjoy
throwing
> plates. 3) Plates are enough of a problem child so that anything making
the
> process a little easier would be a great relief and 4) I could then offer
the
> item at a reasonable price.
>
> I'm sure there is plenty to take issue with here but my main concern is
> remaining true to my craft by staying within the perameters of "handmade".
> That is essentially why I asked for feedback on the subject. Thank you all
> for your input.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Snail Scott on thu 6 sep 01

Handmade?

This is only an issue because potters, as a profession,
are 'behind the curve' technologically. I doubt the
folks over at Mikasa are averse to any new technologies
that might improve product, efficiency, or cost.

You make pots by hand, by choice, then try to justify
the choice of process. Why should anyone else care?

You worry about definition of 'handmade' because it's
the only thing you think gives value to your products,
to allow you to command a price that pays you a living
wage and compete with the Mikasa stuff.

(Any potter who hasn't ruptured an artery yet?)

Do you guys really think that the only thing that
gives value to your work is its 'handmade-ness'?

CRAP!

You guys talk a river about form, function, touch,
sight, art, craft, use, the role of uniqueness.
Do you really believe a word of it? If any of those
things truly have a value in themselves, then how
it was made is of interest mainly to the maker.

You, as the maker, create your life around your process,
but its value is to you, not the object. If the marks
of that process are valued by another, great, but the
process does not belong to them, only its product as
a souvenir.

People buy volcanic ash and meteorites as souvenirs
of process.

Thoe world is full of handmade objects. Most are
valued solely for their process (it's called
'sentimental value') and most of them hang on
refrigerator doors.

What are you making? Objects or sentiment? If it's
sentiment, your mother will appreciate it, but won't
care what it looks like. No one else will care at
all. Then why did you put all that effort into form,
surface, function...?

It's an object. If it's functional, beautiful, evocative,
useful, handy, fascinating, it will be valued. If you
need the excuse of process to induce anyone to care
about it, than maybe the object has fallen short. If
the buyer cares about the process, that's gravy, not
sole justification.

Are you producing something of value? Isn't that what
you wanted to do?

If you are producing a thing with value in and of
itself, its means of production won't matter! Does
your work really need the crutch of that 'handmade'
label to provoke interest?

If the viewer never knew it was handmade, shouldn't
its worthiness as an object still sing from it? If
being handmade is only evidenced by a tag, why should
the process matter, except to you the maker? If the
thing you are making derives no evident virtue from
the process, why should anyone care how it was made?

Make a worthy object. Love your process. But don't
confuse the two. No one else does.

-Snail
maker of stuff, by hand.

Earl Brunner on thu 6 sep 01

I think there is a flaw in this thinking. (not just yours here Scott,
but in this general type of reply-several have replied in this vein)
Why is something being marketed as "handmade" in the first place?
The "handmade" market is reaction to the industrialization of all of our
manufacturing processes. What is being sold here is the sense that this
was made by hand and not mechanical means, and that this makes the
product different than a machine made product. The issue doesn't even
have to be whether or not one is somehow better in some way than the other.

When one focuses on the "handmade" market, they are appealing to a
particular buyer. If this is a non-issue then ask yourselves this, "Is
the issue being clouded by those trying to pass some thing essentially
machine made off as handmade or is it being clouded by those trying to
pass something off as machine made that was made by hand?"

Clouding the issue is a way to spit hairs, divide and conquer, muddy the
waters, and shift the lens of the magnifying glass off of the issue and
onto something else. Politicians are great at this. Used car salesmen
are great at this.

WHY would someone who jiggers pots want to classify them as "handmade"?
WHY is the issue important to them?

Scott Ackerman wrote:

> I have read much of this discussion with amusement. It reminds me of High
> School geometry class. The teacher had said that there were some things that
> the classical Greeks found were impossible to do in regards to constucting
> geometric proofs. One of them was called "squaring the circle", which means;
> given a circle with a certain area, construct a square with the same area.
> So being the young cocky individual that I was, I decided that the greeks
> (being 2000 years old) were a bit behind the technology curve. So a couple
> of days later I informed the instructor that I had indeed "squared the
> circle". He then asked me to show him my proof. I did, and he immediately
> replied that I had "cheated", the "True Greek Mathematician" would have only
> used a compass, a straight edge and a marking device. You see because I had
> made marks on my straightedge with my pencil, it was no longer considered a
> straightedge but a measuring device.
>
> I give you this story only because I am sure that this same discussion
> happened the first time someone used a potters wheel to make a clay vessel.

--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

Earl Brunner on thu 6 sep 01

I'm not taking issue with your question in the sense that I want to be
argumentative or negative, because it is a legitimate question and you
have valid reasons for asking. I would ask, "why is the handmade
designation important to you?"

Why not "Plates made and hand decorated by Richard Urban"?

You are then not stating that the plates are handmade. I have heard of
people designing and hand making several blanks for "ram" pressed ware.
Say, eight different, slightly irregular plates. When ram pressed and
mixed up, so that each set has plates that are slightly different, they
become next to impossible to differentiate from a hand thrown set.

Richard Urban wrote:

> The reason I posted the original question is because I was thinking of
> jiggering dinner plates. This for a number of reasons some of which are: 1) I
> believe the decoration of a dinner plate to be is it's main event since there
> really isn't much of a profile in the item. 2) I don't exactly enjoy throwing
> plates. 3) Plates are enough of a problem child so that anything making the
> process a little easier would be a great relief and 4) I could then offer the
> item at a reasonable price.
>
> I'm sure there is plenty to take issue with here but my main concern is
> remaining true to my craft by staying within the perameters of "handmade".
> That is essentially why I asked for feedback on the subject. Thank you all
> for your input.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.


--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

vince pitelka on thu 6 sep 01

Earl wrote:
> So if I'm pouring the slip with my very own hands I'm "making it?"
Tommy Humphries wrote:
> Sorry, but if you are jiggering something, are you not making it???

I'll side with Earl here. This really gets onto a slippery slope. Those
who truly make handmade goods are justifiably concerned about use of the
term "handmade." What degree of assisted technology is allowable when
calling something "handmade?" Where do you draw the line? If someone puts
the lump of clay in the mold, turns on the jigger/jolley, pulls down the
lever, and then removes the mold from the wheel, how is that different from
a machine that does exactly the same thing? You cannot design a machine to
throw a pot on the wheel or to handbuild a pot from raw clay, but you could
design get a machine to produce wares by jigger/jolley, by ram pressing, or
by slip-casting. To me, that is where the difference lies, and I do not
think it is ethical to refer to the jiggered, ram-pressed, or slip-cast
works as handmade.

We have been around and around about this on clayart before, and it is bound
to come up every year or so. Some people who are passionate about their
work but have chosen to use assisted technologies will get bent out of shape
by the above opinion, and I can understand why they would. But I teach
students to make objects that are truly handmade, and I cannot condone using
the term "handmade" in reference to jiggered, rampressed, or slip cast
pieces unless there is considerable assembly involved after the individual
components are produced by those industrial methods.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

Jonathan Kirkendall on fri 7 sep 01

Yes, this is my experience as well.

A production potter that I first apprenticed with told me NOT to tell her
clients that her dinnerware was jiggered. I never liked that.

I now jigger my own dinnerware. When asked (which doesn't happen very
often), I tell folks that the plates (and only the plates - everything else
is thrown) are made on a jigger. I explain what that is, that it and the
molds are handmade, and that each plate is individually made and trimmed by
hand afterwards. I have never once had a negative reaction to this - most
folks are genuinely interested to know that something like jiggering exists!

Jonathan in DC


-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of Philip Poburka
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 2:17 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Handmade?


Dear Richard, et All...

So far as this seems to me, moreso a question of ethics than one simply of
nomenclature per-se, and as it involves the presentation of honest work to
people whose impressions of it may have some importance...

Ones 'Audience' must be construed TO their highest denominator, lest,
leaving them out, they shall be pleased to return the favour.

If it were me, and it is not, I would say in some manner, that I 'make'
these and do so in a manner known as 'Jigging', which has held rightful
favor for many generations now, in the traditional labors of making of
Plates.

That I decorate them one at a time, and all the rest of the work as may be
mentioned briefly which a person might enjoy TO know...to allow them some
notion of how, what they are looking at, got born...they will get-it, that
you did these and that they are your babies...and that there is plenty to
them.

And anyone who does 'know-their-stuff' will also get-it, that you are
straight, careful and proud of your honest efforts, and happy to let them
fly on their own merits without evokeing ambiguity or it's implication.

That is my notion on this question...

Which is not to say that this 'solves' what may remain certain, or elusive,
questions OF...
It solves well enough, the elimination of probable connotative ambiguity in
your presentation and your work...and of the you who is presenting
them...eliminates an ambiguity which suggests as well, that you may be
'hedgeing' over something which does not need to be apologised for or hedged
about.

Jig 'em, say so, and be proud of it...wholesome enough!

Phil
Las Vegas...



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Urban"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Handmade?


> The reason I posted the original question is because I was thinking of
> jiggering dinner plates. This for a number of reasons some of which are:
1) I
> believe the decoration of a dinner plate to be is it's main event since
there
> really isn't much of a profile in the item. 2) I don't exactly enjoy
throwing
> plates. 3) Plates are enough of a problem child so that anything making
the
> process a little easier would be a great relief and 4) I could then offer
the
> item at a reasonable price.
>
> I'm sure there is plenty to take issue with here but my main concern is
> remaining true to my craft by staying within the perameters of "handmade".
> That is essentially why I asked for feedback on the subject. Thank you all
> for your input.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

george koller on fri 7 sep 01

Enjoy turning "handmade if" definition around in my head then
shooting "what if" holes into it. Settled on this below, but not
at all sure my definition is complete, perhaps it offers a new
thought or two:


An artifact can be considered handmade when one or more
important aesthetic aspect is directly controlled, piece to
piece, by a strictly human "feedback loop".




George Koller
Sturgeon Bay, WI - Door County

Rikki Gill on fri 7 sep 01

Not to muddy the waters, but..... I throw or slab everything I make, but
ONLY my dinnerplates are thrown into a jigger bat which I use as a guide. I
use my hands, not a jigger profile. This is a mix and do you consider these
thrown or jiggered? I have a lot of lee-way as to shape. I like doing
them this way becouse they stack well. Rikki Gill rikigil@cwnet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Brunner
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Handmade?


>I think there is a flaw in this thinking. (not just yours here Scott,
>but in this general type of reply-several have replied in this vein)
>Why is something being marketed as "handmade" in the first place?
>The "handmade" market is reaction to the industrialization of all of our
>manufacturing processes. What is being sold here is the sense that this
>was made by hand and not mechanical means, and that this makes the
>product different than a machine made product. The issue doesn't even
>have to be whether or not one is somehow better in some way than the other.
>
>When one focuses on the "handmade" market, they are appealing to a
>particular buyer. If this is a non-issue then ask yourselves this, "Is
>the issue being clouded by those trying to pass some thing essentially
>machine made off as handmade or is it being clouded by those trying to
>pass something off as machine made that was made by hand?"
>
>Clouding the issue is a way to spit hairs, divide and conquer, muddy the
>waters, and shift the lens of the magnifying glass off of the issue and
>onto something else. Politicians are great at this. Used car salesmen
>are great at this.
>
>WHY would someone who jiggers pots want to classify them as "handmade"?
> WHY is the issue important to them?
>
>Scott Ackerman wrote:
>
>> I have read much of this discussion with amusement. It reminds me of High
>> School geometry class. The teacher had said that there were some things
that
>> the classical Greeks found were impossible to do in regards to
constucting
>> geometric proofs. One of them was called "squaring the circle", which
means;
>> given a circle with a certain area, construct a square with the same
area.
>> So being the young cocky individual that I was, I decided that the greeks
>> (being 2000 years old) were a bit behind the technology curve. So a
couple
>> of days later I informed the instructor that I had indeed "squared the
>> circle". He then asked me to show him my proof. I did, and he immediately
>> replied that I had "cheated", the "True Greek Mathematician" would have
only
>> used a compass, a straight edge and a marking device. You see because I
had
>> made marks on my straightedge with my pencil, it was no longer considered
a
>> straightedge but a measuring device.
>>
>> I give you this story only because I am sure that this same discussion
>> happened the first time someone used a potters wheel to make a clay
vessel.
>
>--
>Earl Brunner
>http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
>bruec@anv.net
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

vince pitelka on fri 7 sep 01

> I don't want my things just to look handmade. I want them to feel
handmade. I
> want them to be handmade. So I'll just have to wait and see. I'll play
with
> it and see if it feels right. Thanks for your comments, all.

Richard -
How they feel to you when they are done has nothing to do with it. It is
how they were actually made. Your sense of honesty and sincerety depends
absolutely on being truthful to yourself in terms of the process and
technique. There is no way you can call something handmade unless you have
made it with your own hands. To make a mold, and then reproduce an item ad
infinitum from the same mold is not handmade, whether it is jiggered,
ram-pressed, or slip-cast. You can say "hand-finshed," "hand-decorated" or
"hand-painted," but it would not be honest to say handmade. Again, there is
nothing at all wrong with jiggering, ram-pressing, or slip-casting, but you
must be honest to the buyer, and if you use those assisted technology
processes it is my opinion that you cannot say the work is handmade.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

vince pitelka on fri 7 sep 01

> I now jigger my own dinnerware. When asked (which doesn't happen very
> often), I tell folks that the plates (and only the plates - everything
else
> is thrown) are made on a jigger. I explain what that is, that it and the
> molds are handmade, and that each plate is individually made and trimmed
by
> hand afterwards. I have never once had a negative reaction to this - most
> folks are genuinely interested to know that something like jiggering
exists!

Jonathan -
This is a perfect example. Good for you. I really appreciate the message
here. As others have pointed out, it does not matter whether you choose to
use assisted technologies as long as you are absolutely honest and up front
about what you are doing. Don't call it handmade if it ain't.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

Ron Roy on fri 7 sep 01

Perhaps if we say hand formed the distinction becomes clear.

RR

Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513

vince pitelka on fri 7 sep 01

> An artifact can be considered handmade when one or more
> important aesthetic aspect is directly controlled, piece to
> piece, by a strictly human "feedback loop".

George -
Please do not take offense from this, but your definition seems to me a
perfect 21st century politically correct one, in that it allows for almost
any possiblity without really establishing parameters at all. From a
completely different context, I see so much explaining and defining in
academia today, in words which do not really define or explain in specific
terms, because no one wants to commit. I favor a very specific, down to
earth explanation or definintion, when that is possible. And face it, every
explanation or definition is just the opinion of one individual or group.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

Norman van der Sluys on sat 8 sep 01

But, since process determines form, it is important to the purchaser as well as the
maker. Consider the difference between a pen and ink drawing and a reproduction of
that drawing by mechanical offset lithography or xerography. Is there a
difference? Is the difference simply a matter of scarcity/uniqueness?

In fine art, many of us speak in terms of process. The viewer is a part of that
process that begins with the artist's inspiration and is transmitted through the
object she creates to the viewer. It is more than the physical process of making
the object. It is an intellectual / emotional / spiritual / social / cultural
process. The same is true of the "handmade" mug or dinner plate. For me, the
difference between the fine art piece and the functional craft object is that the
functional piece allows more intimacy with the user - it becomes a more integral
part of the user's life.

It is this process that is missing from the Mikasa and Noritake ware. They cannot
possess this quality despite (or because of) the advances of technology, just as
the one-of-five-thousand reproduction of a drawing cannot possess the same quality
as the original.

Snail Scott wrote:

>
>
> If the viewer never knew it was handmade, shouldn't
> its worthiness as an object still sing from it? If
> being handmade is only evidenced by a tag, why should
> the process matter, except to you the maker? If the
> thing you are making derives no evident virtue from
> the process, why should anyone care how it was made?
>
> Make a worthy object. Love your process. But don't
> confuse the two. No one else does.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________



--
Norman van der Sluys

by the shore of Lake Michigan

Richard Urban on sat 8 sep 01

Sometimes I'm the buyer. Sometimes I'm the maker.
When I'm the buyer I can usually tell how handmade a piece is just by close
examination. I think my customers can usually tell as well.
As the maker I can usually tell how handmade a piece is by how much fun it
was to make it.

Bill Karaffa on sat 8 sep 01

-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of vince pitelka
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 7:31 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Handmade?


> You can say "hand-finshed," "hand-decorated" or
"hand-painted," but it would not be honest to say handmade. Again, there is
nothing at all wrong with jiggering, ram-pressing, or slip-casting, but you
must be honest to the buyer, <

Honesty with yourself and your peer's seems to also be important to me.

Integrity, you chose whether to live with it or not.

Bill Karaffa
Firemouth Pottery and Gallery
http://fp1.centurytel.net/karaffa

Tim Pozza on sat 8 sep 01

A thrown pot is not handmade in the strictest sense.

There is technological intervention.

Just because the pot sprouts up from the bottom doesn't make it any different than
slumping or humping.

Handmade is a pinch pot. ;)

tim
--
Tim Pozza
Port Hope, Ontario Canada
mailto: tim.pozza@sympatico.ca

Earl Brunner on sat 8 sep 01

I have a friend at work that loves hand made pottery, doesn't know a lot
about it, but is at the stage of buying, "what she likes". I really
bummed her out awhile back when I pointed out that one of her favorite
pieces was ram pressed instead of made by hand. She says I've ruined it
for her, she is afraid to buy now, because she values my opinion and is
afraid she will get "taken" again. If she does buy something, she
doesn't want to let me see it. She is upset that when she is buying
under the impression that it is handmade, it isn't.

Richard Urban wrote:

> Sometimes I'm the buyer. Sometimes I'm the maker.
> When I'm the buyer I can usually tell how handmade a piece is just by close
> examination. I think my customers can usually tell as well.
> As the maker I can usually tell how handmade a piece is by how much fun it
> was to make it.
>
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--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net

John Baymore on sat 8 sep 01

Publicity handouts about his tiles, which are collected by 'the stars',
state that they are 'hand-poured plaster'.
By the way, this person in my opinion really is/was an excellent
artist/sculptor, but his talent for business is even greater.......


Franoise,

Very astute observation. Thanks.


This person.... being a very good business person...... has carefully
CHOSEN to get the implication of the "handmade" aspect into the marketing=

effort for the work. He could have just said they are "poured
plaster".....which would be absolutely true. But "poured plaster" has no=

sizzle....no life...no fire. There's no inherent high value to the
material itself.....as there might be with "solid gold", "purest diamond"=

and so on. Plaster is pretty humble (right there along with clay). =


But "hand poured"...... now THAT carries some "value added" to a inherent=
ly
humble material. He KNEW that the very concept of handwork, high human
touch, the involvement of people not machines, carries the ability in our=

culture (and probably in most) to increase the precieved value of an
object. That is one big JOB of marketing....... to increase percieved
value and desirability.

In marketing, the wordsmiths look for "power words" that convey concepts
that increase the percieved value and desire for an object. The use of
"solid" and "purest" I chose above put them in the context of "power
words"..... embellishing the "gold" and "diamonds".... making them sound
even better than the precious material does in itself.

All of the variations of "handmade" are right in there in the marketer's
power word collections, and are used whenever even remotely possible.

Should this increase the value of an object? We can debate that
forever....and probably will......... right here on CLAYART. But the
fact remains that it DOES for many, many people.

The tag "handmade" DOES seem to matter not only to the maker, as some hav=
e
contended,...... but to the consumer as well.

You rarely hear someone turn to another when looking at an object and say=

incredulously, "Will you look at that . You know, that was made entirely=

by a machine! Wow. I wish I had a machine that could do that. Those dar=
n
machines are so skillful, talented, and inventive. What an incredible pie=
ce
of work!"

Picture this........

Mr/Ms Average Consumer is held at gunpoint, and told that he/she MUST pay=

one thousand dollars for one, and only one, of the two small ceramic bowl=
s
in front of them......or DIE! Average Consumer unwillingly but resignedl=
y
hands over the grand... counting out each crisp one hunderd dollar
bill.......100, 200, 300, 400.............1000........ and feeling sort o=
f
robbed, of course . Average Consumer now looks carefully at the two
bowls.... they are IDENTICAL. He/she picks them up. He/she can find NO
difference at ALL. None. They are exact duplicates of each other. =

Everything is exactly the same. Average Consumer asks, "Are there ANY
differences in these two pieces? I can't see any!" He/she is told by th=
e
gunman, "The only difference is that the one on the right is completely a=
nd
fully handmade using a minimum of machines, the other on the left was mad=
e
by a very mechanized, more industrial process."

Which one do you think Mr/ Ms Average Consumer would choose .... since
they are "stuck" with spending a grand for this thing that they really
weren't planning on buying in the first place? What would drive that
decision?

I know where my bet lies .


Best,

.............................john


PS: Who, of course, has spent the last 32 years professionally
handcrafting only the finest in quality Japanese-influenced vitreous
stoneware one-of-a-kind clayworks out of his specially formulated blend o=
f
raw clays and unique locally mined raw materials, at his secluded country=

studio by the babbling rapids of the Souhegan River,.......... with each
piece then skillfully fired for 36 hours to almost 2400 degrees F utilizi=
ng
almost two cords of finely split wood continuously stoked into his hand
constructed wood-fired Japanese-style hill climbing kiln. ...........=
=

let's see..... can I get any more words into that alphabet soup that migh=
t
work to give me more "value added" ? (Just kidding here, folks! )=




John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA

603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)

JohnBaymore.com

JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com

"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop 2002 Dates TBA"