Hank Ray on thu 6 may 99
Hello....
Recently Nils Lou suggested removing the porcelain burner tips on an Alpine
updraft kiln.
Along with some other suggestions to help it fire better...
I tried removing the burner tips today on my Alpine kiln (really belongs to
the art center) and had troubles with the flame blowing off the tip of the
burner... i had the "vari-speed" controler turned as low as it would go, and
the blower motor air completely closed off, and the gas at one inch of water
column. i tried varying all of the above with out any luck... flame would
still blow off tip of burner...
the kiln is an Alpine HF-24
i was gonna try all that Nils suggested (except ITC 100) the next firing and
report back to Clay Art....
any thoughts......
PS theoretically why do we need the secondary air ports on the side of the
Alpine? when all other updrafts don't have them?
Pete in Oklahoma City....... well out of the way of the F-4
Nils Lou on fri 7 may 99
In response to your remarks below: I suggested removing the porcelain
"flame retension tips" because I have found them breaking at inopportune
times and they are not true flame shapers. They act primarily to protect
the burner tips (pipe nipples actually) from deteriorating rapidly which a
coating of ITC 213 will do far better. To keep the flame from blowing out
you may need to move the burners closer in to the ports or replace with a
longer pipe nipple. As for the side ports they are essentiall useless and
I close them up. Hope this may be of help. Nils
On Thu, 6 May 1999, Hank Ray wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hello....
>
> Recently Nils Lou suggested removing the porcelain burner tips on an Alpine
> updraft kiln.
> Along with some other suggestions to help it fire better...
>
> I tried removing the burner tips today on my Alpine kiln (really belongs to
> the art center) and had troubles with the flame blowing off the tip of the
> burner... i had the "vari-speed" controler turned as low as it would go, and
> the blower motor air completely closed off, and the gas at one inch of water
> column. i tried varying all of the above with out any luck... flame would
> still blow off tip of burner...
> the kiln is an Alpine HF-24
>
> i was gonna try all that Nils suggested (except ITC 100) the next firing and
> report back to Clay Art....
>
> any thoughts......
>
> PS theoretically why do we need the secondary air ports on the side of the
> Alpine? when all other updrafts don't have them?
>
> Pete in Oklahoma City....... well out of the way of the F-4
>
Bonita Cohn on fri 7 may 99
This air adjustment is important for reduction firings. For 20 years, I have
fired 2 updrafts: an Alpine and an Olsen. I find those Alpine burner tips
have been important in focusing the flame. The air intake on those burners
controls the quality of the flame--that is, reduction. On the burners that
are under the Olsen is an air adjustment that screws up and down. Leaving
3/16" open the whole time is best for my kiln. This greatly affects the
atmosphere going into the kiln. I can only get copper reds when I am careful
to have this air adjustment just "so". Bonita in San Francisco
John Britt on sun 9 may 99
I hate to disagree with Nils Lou about firing but I have never had any
trouble with firing Alpines. I would not remove the burner tips. Nor
would I recommend that anyone without his experience do the same.
Especially beginners who do not know what they are doing.
I would call Alpine and ask their people what to do. They have been
making the kilns for quite some time and give great support to their
customers. You may want to call them and ask them why they have the
secondary air ports.
I find the secondary air ports very useful. I do close them during
reduction and after the firing is over. It is an excellent way to
introduce air at the flame tip. After reduction, opening them helps the
kiln to climb very efficiently.
No disrespect to Nils Lou.
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:58:28 EDT
From: Nils Lou
Subject: Re: NILS AND ALPINE
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
In response to your remarks below: I suggested removing the porcelain
"flame retension tips" because I have found them breaking at inopportune
times and they are not true flame shapers. They act primarily to protect
the burner tips (pipe nipples actually) from deteriorating rapidly which
a
coating of ITC 213 will do far better. To keep the flame from blowing
out
you may need to move the burners closer in to the ports or replace with
a
longer pipe nipple. As for the side ports they are essentiall useless
and
I close them up. Hope this may be of help. Nils
On Thu, 6 May 1999, Hank Ray wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
> Hello....
>
> Recently Nils Lou suggested removing the porcelain burner tips on an
Alpine
> updraft kiln.
> Along with some other suggestions to help it fire better...
>
> I tried removing the burner tips today on my Alpine kiln (really
belongs
to
> the art center) and had troubles with the flame blowing off the tip of
the
> burner... i had the "vari-speed" controler turned as low as it would
go,
and
> the blower motor air completely closed off, and the gas at one inch
of
water
> column. i tried varying all of the above with out any luck... flame
would
> still blow off tip of burner...
> the kiln is an Alpine HF-24
>
> i was gonna try all that Nils suggested (except ITC 100) the next
firing
and
> report back to Clay Art....
>
> any thoughts......
>
> PS theoretically why do we need the secondary air ports on the side of
the
> Alpine? when all other updrafts don't have them?
>
> Pete in Oklahoma City....... well out of the way of the F-4
>
--
Thanks,
John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
Dys-Functional Pottery
Dallas, Texas
http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
Nils Lou on mon 10 may 99
I am very used to being disagreed with, John. Actually, Calling Alpine is
good advice. My take on Alpine design is the kiln is well built, but many
people seem to have problems firing it evenly in temperature and
atmosphere. In my opinion their burners are chintzy and not worthy of the
kiln itself. On the one we have at Linfield I have retro-fitted with a
Geil system which makes the firing much more controllable. A typical
firing is on from cold start at 9am off at 4:30 at C10. Nice Pinnell Cu
reds. Everyone must find their way and it helps to have these discussions.
Nils
On Sun, 9 May 1999, John Britt wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I hate to disagree with Nils Lou about firing but I have never had any
> trouble with firing Alpines. I would not remove the burner tips. Nor
> would I recommend that anyone without his experience do the same.
> Especially beginners who do not know what they are doing.
>
> I would call Alpine and ask their people what to do. They have been
> making the kilns for quite some time and give great support to their
> customers. You may want to call them and ask them why they have the
> secondary air ports.
>
> I find the secondary air ports very useful. I do close them during
> reduction and after the firing is over. It is an excellent way to
> introduce air at the flame tip. After reduction, opening them helps the
> kiln to climb very efficiently.
>
> No disrespect to Nils Lou.
>
>
>
> Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:58:28 EDT
> From: Nils Lou
> Subject: Re: NILS AND ALPINE
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> In response to your remarks below: I suggested removing the porcelain
> "flame retension tips" because I have found them breaking at inopportune
>
> times and they are not true flame shapers. They act primarily to protect
>
> the burner tips (pipe nipples actually) from deteriorating rapidly which
> a
> coating of ITC 213 will do far better. To keep the flame from blowing
> out
> you may need to move the burners closer in to the ports or replace with
> a
> longer pipe nipple. As for the side ports they are essentiall useless
> and
> I close them up. Hope this may be of help. Nils
>
> On Thu, 6 May 1999, Hank Ray wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> > Hello....
> >
> > Recently Nils Lou suggested removing the porcelain burner tips on an
> Alpine
> > updraft kiln.
> > Along with some other suggestions to help it fire better...
> >
> > I tried removing the burner tips today on my Alpine kiln (really
> belongs
> to
> > the art center) and had troubles with the flame blowing off the tip of
>
> the
> > burner... i had the "vari-speed" controler turned as low as it would
> go,
> and
> > the blower motor air completely closed off, and the gas at one inch
> of
> water
> > column. i tried varying all of the above with out any luck... flame
> would
> > still blow off tip of burner...
> > the kiln is an Alpine HF-24
> >
> > i was gonna try all that Nils suggested (except ITC 100) the next
> firing
> and
> > report back to Clay Art....
> >
> > any thoughts......
> >
> > PS theoretically why do we need the secondary air ports on the side of
>
> the
> > Alpine? when all other updrafts don't have them?
> >
> > Pete in Oklahoma City....... well out of the way of the F-4
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
> Dys-Functional Pottery
> Dallas, Texas
> http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
>
John Britt on tue 11 may 99
Mr. Lou,
I have read your book and noticed your reference to Alpine's poor
burners. I will agree that the burners could be a bit more efficient.
My problem with the design is that on the older ones, the thermocouple
was too close and would regularly burn up. But these kilns were over
25 years old, so the burners weren't the only problems with the kilns.
Firing Alpines evenly and with even reduction is a challenge. But I
believe that this struggle has really taught me how to apply the
concepts of firing.
My objection is that beginners often take bits of advise from experts
and then in trying to apply it, get into even worse problems because
they don't have the experience to really understand the full
implications of the problem.
For instance, if I asked Michael Jordan how to score over Shaq. He
would say you just fake right , left and then drive right and slam it.
Well that sounds easy but if I tried it I would surely end up in the
hospital with a orange ball in my throat.
I do fine it amazing that you can fire successfully beginning at 9:00
a.m. and finishing at 4:30 p.m.! How are the shinos?
--
Thanks,
John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
Dys-Functional Pottery
Dallas, Texas
http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
John Baymore on wed 12 may 99
------------------
I have to completely agree with Nils on the =22chintzy=22 burners on the
Alpine. They seem to have remained with the basic system they had 20 years
ago while the rest of the world sped up. Earlier models have a TERRIBLE
burner system.
Otherwise the kilns are well built and real workhorses. Take school abuse
well. Like all updrafts.... they require precise adjustments to fire the
same each time and are prone to variations in firing based on stacking
variations.
BEst,
....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.COM (new second address ........website coming)
Nils Lou on wed 12 may 99
John,
I don't think your sports analogy is apt since it requires
athletic ability and split-second timing-- and process involved in getting
a kiln to work well is a gradual, trial and error experience, each time
noting improvement. As for the Alpines, most of us have these older
Alpines and they remain the problematic ones. If you have solved the
firing problems in yours I commend you. I certainly do not maintain my
protocol for fixing them is the only way. I am just reporting what I have
done and the anecdotal fix. Also, it isn't arcane science and My belief is
that any one with a serious interest in taking the time to understand and
to try out the changes can improve the performance of their kiln whether
Alpine or MFT. I don't see it as going up against MJ. My firing schedule
is the work of such trial and error. The old Alpine fire box cylinders
would break and fall in, so I took them out. It fired better. The
porcelain burner tips broke and clogged the burner port, so I removed them
and it fired better. Some bricks broke so I repaired them with ITC 200EZ
and sprayed the interior and all furniture with ITC 100HT--it fired
better. I installed an oxygen probe and improved my efficiency and it
fired better. BTW, I have a passion for shinos and I wish I could show you
the last pot. When I get a slide I will scan it into my website.
Thanks for your message--Again, I think discourse of this nature
is good. Best regards, Nils
On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Britt wrote:
> Mr. Lou,
>
> I have read your book and noticed your reference to Alpine's poor
> burners. I will agree that the burners could be a bit more efficient.
> My problem with the design is that on the older ones, the thermocouple
> was too close and would regularly burn up. But these kilns were over
> 25 years old, so the burners weren't the only problems with the kilns.
> Firing Alpines evenly and with even reduction is a challenge. But I
> believe that this struggle has really taught me how to apply the
> concepts of firing.
>
> My objection is that beginners often take bits of advise from experts
> and then in trying to apply it, get into even worse problems because
> they don't have the experience to really understand the full
> implications of the problem.
>
> For instance, if I asked Michael Jordan how to score over Shaq. He
> would say you just fake right , left and then drive right and slam it.
> Well that sounds easy but if I tried it I would surely end up in the
> hospital with a orange ball in my throat.
>
>
> I do fine it amazing that you can fire successfully beginning at 9:00
> a.m. and finishing at 4:30 p.m.! How are the shinos?
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
> Dys-Functional Pottery
> Dallas, Texas
> http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
>
>
>
John Britt on wed 12 may 99
Mr. Lou,
Perhaps the analogy could have been better. But the point of it was not split
second timing or going up against MJ, etc. The point was :
> My objection is that beginners often take bits of advise from experts
> and then in trying to apply it, get into even worse problems because
> they don't have the experience to really understand the full
> implications of the problem.
For example, retrofitting with Geil burners, moving burners closer to the
port, etc. These skills are not always within the capacity of most
beginners. That is not to say they cannot or should not be learned. But the
current scope of their skills do not include it. So taking off the flame tips
may be a good idea for you, while a beginner may not be able make the
subsequent adjustments necessary. That is why I recommended they call Alpine
for support.
So back to the point, that advice from experts can sometimes be dangerous to
beginners, particularly involving natural gas and its ignition.
Otherwise I believe we are in agreement. I don't believe firing is an arcane
science either. I have found that learning to fire kilns is one of the most
rewarding aspects of ceramics. We are moving our studio to a new building and
would love to upgrade burners as you have. I, too love shinos and would love
to see your slides. It sounds like an incredible fuel savings, compared to
the time it takes us to fire.
Thanks for the chance to dialogue,
Best regards,
Nils Lou wrote:
> John,
> I don't think your sports analogy is apt since it requires
> athletic ability and split-second timing-- and process involved in getting
> a kiln to work well is a gradual, trial and error experience, each time
> noting improvement. As for the Alpines, most of us have these older
> Alpines and they remain the problematic ones. If you have solved the
> firing problems in yours I commend you. I certainly do not maintain my
> protocol for fixing them is the only way. I am just reporting what I have
> done and the anecdotal fix. Also, it isn't arcane science and My belief is
> that any one with a serious interest in taking the time to understand and
> to try out the changes can improve the performance of their kiln whether
> Alpine or MFT. I don't see it as going up against MJ. My firing schedule
> is the work of such trial and error. The old Alpine fire box cylinders
> would break and fall in, so I took them out. It fired better. The
> porcelain burner tips broke and clogged the burner port, so I removed them
> and it fired better. Some bricks broke so I repaired them with ITC 200EZ
> and sprayed the interior and all furniture with ITC 100HT--it fired
> better. I installed an oxygen probe and improved my efficiency and it
> fired better. BTW, I have a passion for shinos and I wish I could show you
> the last pot. When I get a slide I will scan it into my website.
> Thanks for your message--Again, I think discourse of this nature
> is good. Best regards, Nils
>
> > My objection is that beginners often take bits of advise from experts
> > and then in trying to apply it, get into even worse problems because
> > they don't have the experience to really understand the full
> > implications of the problem.
> >
> > For instance, if I asked Michael Jordan how to score over Shaq. He
> > would say you just fake right , left and then drive right and slam it.
> > Well that sounds easy but if I tried it I would surely end up in the
> > hospital with a orange ball in my throat.
> >
> >
> > I do fine it amazing that you can fire successfully beginning at 9:00
> > a.m. and finishing at 4:30 p.m.! How are the shinos?
> >
> >
>
--
Thanks,
John Britt claydude@unicomp.net
Dys-Functional Pottery
Dallas, Texas
http://www.dysfunctionalpottery.com/claydude
| |
|
