Juliet Johnston on fri 28 may 99
I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
that you know? Trying, Juliet
Barney Adams on sun 30 may 99
There are tons of books out there that give you much of this info.
The other part of learning from a book is to apply what you learn
which teaches you what the books left out. Then again ClayArt fills
in a great deal.
Barney
Juliet Johnston wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> that you know? Trying, Juliet
P. Cox on sun 30 may 99
Is this a 4 year university you are attending? I have heard that
community colleges aren't allowed to have their students touch the kilns
but I went to a 4 year university and knew enough when I got out to run
my own studio out of my garage and teach a community class in pottery.
The first semester I learned the basics of handbuilding and
wheelthrowing (no masterpieces but they were centered)also learned how
to load and fire an electric kiln. Second semester you would chose
either handbuilding or wheelthrowing and further exploring the
techniques learned in the first class. Towards the end of the second
semester the professor would assign an advanced student to teach you how
to measure and mix the classes glaze recipes. Third semester, continue
technique of your choice or mix and match techniques and if you choose
to learn to, load and fire the large gas kiln. After that classes are
taken as directed studies as one on one with the professor, the subject
would be decided between you and the teacher.
I think if you are attending a university and when you finish all that
they can offer you, and you can not complete a pot from start to finish
you have been sorely shortchanged.
pcox
Linda Christen on sun 30 may 99
Juliet,
This sounds very frustrating! My teacher didn't recommend many books
either, but I found them. At first I just went to the art section at
Barnes and Noble, then I discovered Steve Branfmans Potters shop. I've
learned immeasurable amounts from reading the clayart posts for many years
now. (Including which books I ought to be finding.) Also, taking regular
workshops in addition to my years with one teacher has made my learning
more well rounded. Ask questions, visit museums, read catalogs, etc.
Stick with it, find pottery wherever you can and keep reading clayart!
I've still got volumes to absorb too, that is the wonderful thing about
pottery, you never stop trying & learning new things.
Good Luck,
Linda
At 02:27 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
>class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
>properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
>or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
>never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
>throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
>that you know? Trying, Juliet
>
Linda Christen
Midgaard Works
Andrew Buck on sun 30 may 99
AAARRRRRG This is my pet beef with the education system at some
institutions of higher learning here in the US of A. They do not teach
what people need to know to actually do much of anything out in the real
world. I hope art or education are not your major and that ceramics is
not your highest interest. Look at the bright side though, at least you
know what it is that you need to learn and, one thing the universities are
good at teaching is, how to find information for your self. You did find
Clayart and that is a step in the right direction.
Andy Buck
Raincreek Pottery
Port Orchard, Washington
On Fri, 28 May 1999, Juliet Johnston wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> that you know? Trying, Juliet
>
L.P. Skeen on sun 30 may 99
Juliet Johnston wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> that you know? Trying, Juliet
What the crud have they been "teaching" you for 5 semesters if you're not
being taught about clay, glazes, throwing, or firing? Have you had 5
semesters of handbuilt pots from purchased clay? I think I'd want my $$
back.
If you wanna know about clay, try Glenn Nelson's book, which is what we use
in our class. It's an old one but still good and easy to understand.
--
Lisa Skeen ICQ# 15554910
Living Tree Handmade Pottery & Soaps
Summerfield, NC
****A clean house is a sign of a misspent life.****
Tom Wirt on sun 30 may 99
Subject: school
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> that you know? Trying, Juliet
Juliet,
I'm sure yuou'll get lots of answers on this one.....and you've already
taken the first step. From your question, I think we can assume you have a
sincere desire to know what's going on and why. Excellent. Being
relatively new to ceramics (6 years) I can attest there is more to learn
than one person can master, in many, many years....so you have to limit
yourself somewhat. Experiment with a number of disciplines (handbuilding,
wheel, raku, majolica.....whatever interests you. To discover the interests,
I'd try skimming through every book you can find in the library and or
ceramics department). But fairly quickly you need to hone in on a fairly
narrow area of ceramics....firing temperature, forming process, glaze
techniques. Then maybe, go step by step.....forming processes, clay,
firing, glazing, then glaze mixing.....within the area you've defined.
As you do this, you'll naturally come across other things that interest you
and can pursue them as you go along.
The subject is full of both artistic and technical information. Don't try
to do it all at once. You'll just blow yourself away with the magnitude of
what you don't know and get way too frustrated. If you're serious, I'd
strongly recommend getting The Potters Dictionary by Hamer and Hamer. At
least then you can get some kind of answer for many of your questions as you
go.
I won't go into a diatribe on the sin of what's apparently going on at your
school....it smacks of malpractice....but is unfortunately not unusual in
our education system today.....not just in ceramics. (And please, I know
there are many top notch educators on this list and I have great respect for
you and what you're trying to do in the face of overwhelming odds).
Another approach would be to try to find a working potter in the field in
which you're most interested. Most will be glad to share if you're
genuinely interested.
When you put questions to the list, try to be as specific as possible.
"Tell me about clay" doesn't get you very far. "Tell me about what the main
ingredients do in a Cone 5 clay, may do better".
Also wander in the archives for clayart.
www.potters.org/categories.htm
www.egroups.com/list/clayart
www.reference.com
You'll get a lot of information there. If you've got specific questions I
can help with, please ask directly. I'll be glad to help where I can.
Tom Wirt,
Clay Coyote Pottery
17614 240th St.
Hutchinson, MN 55350
320-587-2599 fax 320-234-6849
claypot@hutchtel.net
Brian Crocker on sun 30 may 99
First Juliet ask for your money back.
Then go to the Library and find the "basics"
of what you dont know then go to another class and ask that teacher if the
subjects you mentioned, Clays, Throwing, Glazes, Firing, etc are in the course.
The Craft of Pottery [or Ceramics] is a vast one and in 'one life time'
you will never know it all [9 different fields I was told many years ago]
and many sub-fields of the 9.
Also list the advice of the Clayarters and you will certainly get plenty of
good advice, print it out and take it to the person who is masquerading
as a teacher. It will not be easy for you to do???
Best of luck,
Brian C..
At 02:27 PM2:10: 28/05/99 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
>class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
>properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
>or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
>never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
>throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
>that you know? Trying, Juliet
>
>
Brian Crocker.
4 Erica Street,
Tea Tree Gully 5091,
South Australia. [e.mail] crocker@dove.net.au
With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd --
"I came like Water, and like Wind I go." The Rubaiyat.
Pat Colyar on sun 30 may 99
The world wonders: what school is this? Have you considered asking for
your money back? Are these "non-major" courses? Is this considered
"formal" education? Sigh...
Pat Colyar in Gold Bar, Washington
Dina Hofstetter on mon 31 may 99
As a high school art teacher who explains the physical properties of clay
during the first quarter of Ceramics I, I just can't let this one go. I
continue to be shocked by the endless public outcry for "accountability" on
the elementary & secondary levels vs. the downright complacency of university
students and their parents when it comes to the accountability of college
instructors and administrators.
No matter what the level, students deserve high-quality educational
experiences, not just access to equipment and supplies. I know it is
difficult to be assertive, but the only way your instructor and art
department will get the message that they are not meeting your needs is if
you deliver that message personally. Perhaps you could write a letter
explaining what you had hoped to learn when you signed up for the courses vs.
what you are actually taking away from the courses.
I haven't met anyone yet who became a teacher to rip people off - there are
much more profitable professions to enter for that purpose. You'd be
surprised at how much power you have to change things for the better when
your comments are presented with seriousness. My experiences as a longtime
student and not-so-longtime teacher have taught me that the student-teacher
relationship, while not equal (the teacher is being paid for her work),
should be one of reciprocity. Let your instructor know that you are not
satisfied! Good Luck & in the meantime read texts by Glenn Nelson, Susan
Petersen, Charlotte Speight & John Toki, Michael Casson, Richard Zakin - any
one of these authors will provide courseloads of solid information.
Dina in Westchester, where 14-18 year olds are never shy about critiquing my
classes.
Gayle Bair on tue 1 jun 99
Hi Juliet,
I had to respond to this thread because of some people I met this
weekend.
I am exhibiting at the Boulder Creek Art Festival in Colorado and
across from my spot are 2 women who graduated from
the University of Colorado in Boulder last week. They collaborate,
one throws the other decorates. Their work is salt fired, beautiful,
technically well done and reasonably priced.
I went over to see about a trade and found out that their work is already
in stores and they have a representative. Their display is modest but
professional. My reaction.... Boy, do they have their s*** together!".
When I graduated from Philadelphia College of Art (67') I was totally
unprepared for the "real world"! I wound up teaching in the
Headstart Program. I had no idea how to market my work.
I never had any advice/training/classes regarding my
future after graduating. Naturally I wasted many years being
a starving artist and as far as I am concerned being a "starving artist"
is a tragic waste of time. So I was really glad to see these 2 kids
coming out of college so well prepared and doing so well.
If you were not taught basics, I am left wondering what you were
tested on to achieve grades?
What I learned this weekend, is that there are educational facilities
doing a good job preparing graduates for the real world. You just have to
find them or make demands of the one you are in if it is lacking.
Juliet here's a piece of life advice:
You had better start speaking up.... demand information from your
professor and if you get no response go to the head of the department
then the dean until you see improvement. If you don't you can expect
your next class to be a repeat of the previous ones. You will need to
speak up for yourself throughout your life, now is a great time to start!
Good Luck!
Gayle Bair
gaylebair@earthlink.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Buck [SMTP:anbuck@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:42 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: school
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
AAARRRRRG This is my pet beef with the education system at some
institutions of higher learning here in the US of A. They do not teach
what people need to know to actually do much of anything out in the real
world. I hope art or education are not your major and that ceramics is
not your highest interest. Look at the bright side though, at least you
know what it is that you need to learn and, one thing the universities are
good at teaching is, how to find information for your self. You did find
Clayart and that is a step in the right direction.
Andy Buck
Raincreek Pottery
Port Orchard, Washington
On Fri, 28 May 1999, Juliet Johnston wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> that you know? Trying, Juliet
>
Pamala Browne on tue 1 jun 99
My two cents on this school thread may not be worth that , but the question
in my head is " Haven't you asked any questions?" Your education is partly
your responsibility and I just cannot imagine how one could go thru 5
semesters without picking up some knowledge--especially if you really wanted
to.Talk to others in the classes and see what they are getting out of them
and if they are as unsatisfied as you then take your complaint to the
governing board.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Buck
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: school
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> AAARRRRRG This is my pet beef with the education system at some
> institutions of higher learning here in the US of A. They do not teach
> what people need to know to actually do much of anything out in the real
> world. I hope art or education are not your major and that ceramics is
> not your highest interest. Look at the bright side though, at least you
> know what it is that you need to learn and, one thing the universities are
> good at teaching is, how to find information for your self. You did find
> Clayart and that is a step in the right direction.
>
> Andy Buck
> Raincreek Pottery
> Port Orchard, Washington
>
> On Fri, 28 May 1999, Juliet Johnston wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> > class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> > properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> > or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> > never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> > throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> > that you know? Trying, Juliet
> >
>
Erin Hayes on wed 2 jun 99
Juliet,
I ran into a similar situation in school. I am still playing catch-up with
glaze chemistry, especially. Aside from understanding your frustration at
not being given the opportunities to learn the medium as well as you should,
I think you are running into what would be a natural progression. What you
aren't given in school you must go get yourself, as much as you can.
The biggest surprise I had at your note was that you aren't throwing.
Certainly most programs have an emphasis in either throwing or handbuilding,
but it shocks me that one half of the medium should be ignored. That is
highly questionable, although I have heard from grad students here and there
that it does occasionally happen. I think that's a gross disservice to the
students - especially those who want to go into teaching.
Other than trying to find out why such gaps in the curriculum exist at your
school, there's not much you can do but make the natural switch to
self-driven learning. It's actually more productive in the long run, I
think. Become a voracious reader and invest as much as you can in workshops.
Being on Clayart will help clue you in on sources of information.
I would think these curriculum problems would call the department's
accreditation into question, but it all depends on the situation.
Erin.
Kelley Webb Randel on wed 2 jun 99
I've been reading this thread with interest, being a 40
year old "student." While I understand her frustrations
and concerns, I've seen it happen many times.
I have done enormous research on my ceramic ideas,
concerns, warnings, plans - through clayart,
ceramicsweb, magazines such as CM, internet, yada yada
yada. As a teaching assistant, I've run into many many
students unwilling to research their interests. They
seem to expect all the information to be handed to them
on a clay platter. While a great deal of it is, in
fact, handed to them in the form of photo copies,
questions answered, brainstorming with the instructor,
with others, etc. I fail to see how anyone can get
through 5 semesters of ceramics and not have the most
basic understandings of the clay process. Personal
responsibility also means taking your education beyond
the "grade."
I was wondering if that point was ever going to be
brought up.
Just my humble opinion,
Kelley Webb Randel
Rakugddss@att.net
1421 N. Osage Trail
Independence, MO 64058-1129
voice: 816.796.4221
fax: 816.796.4166
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> My two cents on this school thread may not be worth that , but the question
> in my head is " Haven't you asked any questions?" Your education is partly
> your responsibility and I just cannot imagine how one could go thru 5
> semesters without picking up some knowledge--especially if you really wanted
> to.Talk to others in the classes and see what they are getting out of them
> and if they are as unsatisfied as you then take your complaint to the
> governing board.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Buck
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 8:42 AM
> Subject: Re: school
>
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > AAARRRRRG This is my pet beef with the education system at some
> > institutions of higher learning here in the US of A. They do not teach
> > what people need to know to actually do much of anything out in the real
> > world. I hope art or education are not your major and that ceramics is
> > not your highest interest. Look at the bright side though, at least you
> > know what it is that you need to learn and, one thing the universities are
> > good at teaching is, how to find information for your self. You did find
> > Clayart and that is a step in the right direction.
> >
> > Andy Buck
> > Raincreek Pottery
> > Port Orchard, Washington
> >
> > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Juliet Johnston wrote:
> >
> > > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > > I have reentered the university and have just finshed my fifth ceramics
> > > class. We do not use a book. I have not been told anything about the
> > > properties or make up of clay. I don't know why you would use one kind
> > > or another, i have never made any. I know nothing about glazes, have
> > > never made any. I have never been given any kiln information. I can"t
> > > throw.I have only one more ceramics class to take. How did you learn all
> > > that you know? Trying, Juliet
> > >
> >
Sharon R Pemberton on wed 2 jun 99
Although it is your responsibility to learn, it is the responsibility of the
learning institution to provide a syllabus for all classes. Read it. If the
class falls short of the outline, file a grevance. If is does not, why in the
world did you continue the class if you were not going to work on your own?
If you want to be a potter, you have to be motivated, you have to read, you
have to watch, you have to experiment. Trust me, no potter was ever made from
two ceramic labs a week for a few semesters.
Explore other avenues in your community/area. You have to live it, breath it
(choak), and eat it. Don't forget the dust mask!
Pax tecum,
Pug
Philip Schroeder on thu 3 jun 99
In a message dated 99-06-02 18:01:48 EDT, you write:
<< This is my pet beef with the education system at some
> > institutions of higher learning here in the US of A. They do not teach
> > what people need to know to actually do much of anything out in the real
> > world. >>
I truely believe that it is a schools responsibility to teach its students
how to learn and to develop a well rounded basis for continued learning.
Learning being a life long process. Schools, either elementary, secondary,
or college, are not technical training institutions and one should not expect
that from them, IMHO. There are such places and apprenticeships, etc. And
perhaps this is the real question, how much of a technical training program
should a acedemic institution be?
I had 3-4 ceramics courses back in 68 as a part of a BA in art. No further
'formal' education. I have studied ceramics since that time on my own,
mostly just reading, experimenting. There was lots that my coursewok didn't
cover. It hasn't hindered my learning. Whether or not a school presents
material, the student still has to do the work.
Phil Schroeder in Chicago
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