Brian Crocker on sun 30 may 99
Dear Clayarters,
Please don't think of me as stupid but I must ask this question.
After using cones for "many years" and always considered the temperature to be
correct when the Guide Cone is down and the Firing Cone is pointing at
3.oo o'clock that the firing is over, soaking etc., taken into account. So
far my glazes have been OK using this method and I have never had a need to
question it.
But "Shock Horror" I have been told I'm totaly wrong and that the Firing Cone
should always point to 5.oo o'clock and no less. "Silly old coot" I was told
"you should know that"
I feel that the difference is very little in degrees C or F but it would be
nice to know. Us Old Folk shouldn't go to the Studio in the Sky with a doubt
in the mind ?? You never know StPeter may ask the question if I ever go
that way. But there are no kilns up there ???
I look forward to the words of wisdom.
Kind regards,
Brian C..
Brian Crocker.
4 Erica Street,
Tea Tree Gully 5091,
South Australia. [e.mail] crocker@dove.net.au
With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd --
"I came like Water, and like Wind I go." The Rubaiyat.
Kenneth D. Westfall on mon 31 may 99
Brian
You go on firing just the way your are! If your glazes look the way
you want them too your doing just fine. The only time you need to change
is if you are trying to reproduce someone else glaze firing. You can only
get consistency with other peoples firing if you are both firing to the
same standards that Orton suggest for a given temp. Orton goes to great
lengths to make cones which will bend at a given temp/rate first time,
every time. I personally fire to a temp that the number 10 cone is bent to
a 3:00 or 9:00 o'clock position because it gives me the glaze look that I
want. I make a point when trading glaze recipes to tell the person how I
fire so there is no mistake. So if you want consistency that is universal,
fire to the specs that Orton give with their cones other wise don't worry
about.
Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
pinehill@ruralnet.org
http://www.ruralnet.org/pinehillpottery
Matthew Blumenthal on mon 31 may 99
Dear Brian
This subject has been raised on Clayart before, but I'll venture an answer
anyway. Bet I won't be the only one.
Because cones are used to test the heat work of the kiln, which presumably
means the reactions of your clay and glazes to each other within a certain
range of temperature and length of firing, there is no "only right" way of
using them. You find out the bend that works for your stuff. That, combined
with consistancy in firing time and temperature rise, reduction if any, is
the right one for you.
I was always taught that the proper temp had been achieved when the temp
cone had bent down to just touch the cone pack. So now we have 3 "right"
ways to use the cones.
If it works, it's a technique. Don't sweat it.
At 12:06 PM 5/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dear Clayarters,
>
>Please don't think of me as stupid but I must ask this question.
>
>After using cones for "many years" and always considered the temperature
to be
>correct when the Guide Cone is down and the Firing Cone is pointing at
>3.oo o'clock that the firing is over, soaking etc., taken into account. So
>far my glazes have been OK using this method and I have never had a need to
>question it.
>
>But "Shock Horror" I have been told I'm totaly wrong and that the Firing Cone
>should always point to 5.oo o'clock and no less. "Silly old coot" I was told
>"you should know that"
>
>I feel that the difference is very little in degrees C or F but it would be
>nice to know. Us Old Folk shouldn't go to the Studio in the Sky with a doubt
>in the mind ?? You never know StPeter may ask the question if I ever go
>that way. But there are no kilns up there ???
>
>I look forward to the words of wisdom.
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Brian C..
>
>Brian Crocker.
>4 Erica Street,
>Tea Tree Gully 5091,
>South Australia. [e.mail] crocker@dove.net.au
>
>With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
>And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
>And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd --
>"I came like Water, and like Wind I go." The Rubaiyat.
>
>
***********************************************
* Matthew Blumenthal *
* Fremont CA *
* Potter, Guitar Player, General Computer Nut *
* mattb@ix.netcom.com *
* http://www.mattegrafix.com *
***********************************************
Arnold Howard on mon 31 may 99
The difference between a 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock bend is only a few
degrees. If you placed several firing cones next to each other, they
would probably not bend exactly the same, anyway.
The tip of the self-supporting cone should bend until it is even with
the top of the cone base. The large standard cone should bend to 6
o'clock.
More important than the exact bending of cones is firing results. The
cones are simply a guide to help you achieve that.
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, Inc.
--- Brian Crocker wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> Dear Clayarters,
>
> Please don't think of me as stupid but I must ask
> this question.
>
> After using cones for "many years" and always
> considered the temperature to be
> correct when the Guide Cone is down and the Firing
> Cone is pointing at
> 3.oo o'clock that the firing is over, soaking etc.,
> taken into account. So
> far my glazes have been OK using this method and I
> have never had a need to
> question it.
>
> But "Shock Horror" I have been told I'm totaly wrong
> and that the Firing Cone
> should always point to 5.oo o'clock and no less.
> "Silly old coot" I was told
> "you should know that"
>
> I feel that the difference is very little in degrees
> C or F but it would be
> nice to know. Us Old Folk shouldn't go to the Studio
> in the Sky with a doubt
> in the mind ?? You never know StPeter may ask the
> question if I ever go
> that way. But there are no kilns up there ???
>
> I look forward to the words of wisdom.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Brian C..
>
> Brian Crocker.
> 4 Erica Street,
> Tea Tree Gully 5091,
> South Australia. [e.mail]
> crocker@dove.net.au
>
> With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
> And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
> And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd --
> "I came like Water, and like Wind I go." The
> Rubaiyat.
>
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Mike Bailey on mon 31 may 99
In message , Brian Crocker writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Dear Brian and everyone,
Snip...
>
>After using cones for "many years" and always considered the temperature to be
>correct when the Guide Cone is down and the Firing Cone is pointing at
>3.oo o'clock that the firing is over, soaking etc., taken into account. So
>far my glazes have been OK using this method and I have never had a need to
>question it.
>
I've been in contact with Ortons recently - Has anyone else noticed that
a cone 51/2 has appeared where cone ^6 used to be and that ^6 seems to
have moved up a bit ! ?
Anyway, they were kind enough to fax me a very useful chart and notes on
the behaviour of pyrometric cones. In particular pointing out some of
the differences e.g. in the earlier bending of mini-cones in kiln
sitters (from the weight of the sensing rod) and full size cones placed
just off the vertical.
Their phone and fax no in America are
Tel 614-895-2663
Fax 614-895-5610
The person to contact is Dale Fronk (Engineering Manager)
They don't mention a website on their letter heading but it seems hard
to imagine that they don't have one. Anyone know of it?
Best regards to all in a cool, grey, drizzling England.
Mike Bailey.
--
Mike Bailey
Barney Adams on tue 1 jun 99
Barney
Skutt gave me a little card with a key for the Orton cones. (I use
self-supporting)
You place the bent cone against the key and it reads the temp + -. Skutt told
me if after firing my controller if the cone firing was off I could call support
give them the reading from the card and they could adjust the cone firng.
I think the card is published by Orton.
Barney
Matthew Blumenthal wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Dear Brian
>
> This subject has been raised on Clayart before, but I'll venture an answer
> anyway. Bet I won't be the only one.
>
> Because cones are used to test the heat work of the kiln, which presumably
> means the reactions of your clay and glazes to each other within a certain
> range of temperature and length of firing, there is no "only right" way of
> using them. You find out the bend that works for your stuff. That, combined
> with consistancy in firing time and temperature rise, reduction if any, is
> the right one for you.
>
> I was always taught that the proper temp had been achieved when the temp
> cone had bent down to just touch the cone pack. So now we have 3 "right"
> ways to use the cones.
>
> If it works, it's a technique. Don't sweat it.
>
> At 12:06 PM 5/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Dear Clayarters,
> >
> >Please don't think of me as stupid but I must ask this question.
> >
> >After using cones for "many years" and always considered the temperature
> to be
> >correct when the Guide Cone is down and the Firing Cone is pointing at
> >3.oo o'clock that the firing is over, soaking etc., taken into account. So
> >far my glazes have been OK using this method and I have never had a need to
> >question it.
> >
> >But "Shock Horror" I have been told I'm totaly wrong and that the Firing Cone
> >should always point to 5.oo o'clock and no less. "Silly old coot" I was told
> >"you should know that"
> >
> >I feel that the difference is very little in degrees C or F but it would be
> >nice to know. Us Old Folk shouldn't go to the Studio in the Sky with a doubt
> >in the mind ?? You never know StPeter may ask the question if I ever go
> >that way. But there are no kilns up there ???
> >
> >I look forward to the words of wisdom.
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >
> >Brian C..
> >
> >Brian Crocker.
> >4 Erica Street,
> >Tea Tree Gully 5091,
> >South Australia. [e.mail] crocker@dove.net.au
> >
> >With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
> >And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
> >And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd --
> >"I came like Water, and like Wind I go." The Rubaiyat.
> >
> >
>
> ***********************************************
> * Matthew Blumenthal *
> * Fremont CA *
> * Potter, Guitar Player, General Computer Nut *
> * mattb@ix.netcom.com *
> * http://www.mattegrafix.com *
> ***********************************************
Janet H Walker on wed 2 jun 99
Brian Crocker wails:
always considered the temperature to be correct when the Guide Cone
is down and the Firing Cone is pointing at 3.oo o'clock
But "Shock Horror" I have been told I'm totaly wrong and that the
Firing Cone should always point to 5.oo o'clock and no less. "Silly
old coot" I was told "you should know that"
Come now Brian. Cones don't point. Even they know it isn't
polite to point ;->
So much misinformation abounds about reading cones. Basically it
doesn't matter, so long as you choose something and use it
consistently. Hard to be consistent in reading a cone if you are
not consistent in using it however. For example, how many people
know what the correct vertical angle is for an Orton cone? Yes! 8
degrees off vertical. Any more than that or any less and the cone
will not drop at the calibrated rate. Ditto with the height of the
tip above the surface. There's some number I forget -- perhaps 2.75
inches, no more, no less. The apparent reading you get can be off
by a full cone or more, says the literature from Orton, if you are
sloppy in setting the cones.
This points out the need for real precision cone pack building IF
you want real precision cone readings. I can just feel the shock
waves generated from the coordinated shrugs out there. In the words
of the immortal Whoever, "WhatEVER!!!"
But if you care about precision, get the cones set up so that the
readings can be comparable. Being rigidly laboratory trained, I
switched to self-supporting cones as soon as I learned about the
wide variability inherent in reading the other kind. Never
regretted the switch. Of course, I use two per firing, not 120 like
John Baymore.
Then write to Orton to demand/beg for (gender determined?) one of
their little "cone reader" cards. These are a well-kept secret and
I don't understand why Orton doesn't make them much more widely
available. I think I got mine from the Orton booth at NCECA in Las
Vegas but for whatever mysterious reason, they did not offer them
this year at Columbus although I asked several times. Perhaps they
don't appreciate how very many people could benefit from this very
simple aid. It has degrees of drop marked on it for both "regular"
and self-supporting cones. (Note -- 30 degrees drop on a
self-supporting cone doesn't look like that for a cone pack cone.)
When I record a firing, I now make a drawing of the cone arc AND
record the number from the little card. Sure makes it quick to
decide whether two firings are "the same".
One more little secret about cone reading. Go read the section on
Tony Hansen's website about cones. Particularly about how cones
drop non-linearly with heat work. That is, when a cone is "half way
down" (whatever you happen to mean by that) much more than half the
heat work needed for it drop fully has been accomplished already.
digitalfire.com/whatever (hmm is it education/articles/cones or is
it articles/education/... You'll find it.)
So getting to the punch line finally, the difference between 3:00
and 5:00 on the cones is not very significant. But I notice you
didn't ask about a.m. or p.m.? And what about those of us whose
cones drop to the LEFT instead of the RIGHT! Heavens!!! how did
all this get to be so COMPLICATED!!!
Jan Walker
firing to cones 5.5 and 7.2 simultaneously
here in Cambridge MA USA
NakedClay@aol.com on thu 3 jun 99
In a message dated 6/2/99 3:03:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jwalker@world.std.com writes:
> So getting to the punch line finally, the difference between 3:00
> and 5:00 on the cones is not very significant. But I notice you
> didn't ask about a.m. or p.m.? And what about those of us whose
> cones drop to the LEFT instead of the RIGHT! Heavens!!! how did
> all this get to be so COMPLICATED!!!
>
At first, when I read this paragraph, I was thinking, "what time zone?" but I
chose not to go there!
Milton NakedClay@AOL.COM
Signing off to No Mail, for a well-deserved 6-day vacation. I'll sign back on
next Wednesday.
Jonathan Kaplan on thu 3 jun 99
With all this bruhaha over cones, the angles, etc etc. wht is being
overlooked, as Jan Walker mentioned is the judicious making of the cone
plaques, packs, whatever.
We have all made them for years with whatever clays was around. I doubt
that each and every time we get the angle correct, as well as the necessary
amount of cone above the plaque/packs.
Spend some money. Buy the standard Orton Cone Plaques that hold 3 cones. 4
hole plaques are also available. The set the angle, the amount of cone from
the surface of the plaque. You will be amazed at how consistant and
dependable they are.
Or spend some more money and use the self supporting ones and go make some pots.
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president
Ceramic Design Group LTD/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
plant location
1280 13th Street Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
jonathan@csn.net
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
Bonnie Staffel on sun 6 jun 99
<375348fb.34cd749-@mediaone.net> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/clayart/?start=45771
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Barney
>
> Skutt gave me a little card with a key for the Orton cones. (I use
> self-supporting)
> You place the bent cone against the key and it reads the temp + -. Skutt told
> me if after firing my controller if the cone firing was off I could call suppo
> give them the reading from the card and they could adjust the cone firng.
>
> I think the card is published by Orton.
> Barney
> Matthew Blumenthal wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > Dear Brian
> >
> > This subject has been raised on Clayart before, but I'll venture an answer
> > anyway. Bet I won't be the only one.
> >
> > Because cones are used to test the heat work of the kiln, which presumably
> > means the reactions of your clay and glazes to each other within a certain
> > range of temperature and length of firing, there is no "only right" way of
> > using them. You find out the bend that works for your stuff. That, combined
> > with consistancy in firing time and temperature rise, reduction if any, is
> > the right one for you.
> >
> > I was always taught that the proper temp had been achieved when the temp
> > cone had bent down to just touch the cone pack. So now we have 3 "right"
> > ways to use the cones.
> >
> > If it works, it's a technique. Don't sweat it.
> >
> > At 12:06 PM 5/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
Hi all:
Wonder if you have ever heard of this method of setting the cones? I have two p
Skole, Bonnie Staffel
Mert & Holly Kilpatrick on thu 14 sep 00
Earl, Our Orton Cone 7's also go down a little ahead of the 6's or just
about with them. This happens routinely, it's not just getting the cones
mixed up. I remember vaguely that a year or two ago someone wrote something
about the cones changing and since then 6 and 7 were almost the same - Tim?
Can you add something here?
Holly
Earl Brunner wrote:
> Interesting, my cone packs, are 5,6&7 as well, Orton, my 7's
> went down before my 6's. I inferred that there was
> something wrong with the cones.
Eric Hansen on wed 7 jul 10
Actually Orton does not recommend making cone packs, but rather the
self-supporting cones placed on a level surface. Of course they will still
SELL you the cones you use!!! but -
--
Eric Alan Hansen
Stonehouse Studio Pottery
Alexandria, Virginia
americanpotter.blogspot.com
thesuddenschool.blogspot.com
hansencookbook.blogspot.com
"To me, human life in all its forms, individual and aggregate, is a
perpetual wonder: the flora of the earth and sea is full of beauty and of
mystery which seeks science to understand; the fauna of land and ocean is
not less wonderful; the world which holds them both, and the great universe
that folds it in on everyside, are still more wonderful, complex, and
attractive to the contemplating mind." - Theodore Parker, minister,
transcendentalist, abolitionist (1810-1860)
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