carrie or peter jacobson on wed 2 jun 99
Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
Here in southern New England, we have some good shows. Or, we *had* some
good shows. Ten, 12 years ago, the Mystic Outdoor Art show was Exciting! I
could hardly wait for it, knowing I would see plenty of pieces that were
interesting, edgy, creative, wild -- dangerous! disturbing! new!.
Now? White clapboard homes with white picket fences and colorful flowers
tumbling over.
Lighthouses. Well, Cape Elizabeth lighthouse and Portland headlight.
Perfect(ly boring) pottery. Ho hum, could have bought that at Pier 1. And I
have to ask myself why anyone would bother making it. And how anyone could
make it and not just be bored to death.
Cripes, what is the problem? I know people are making exciting original
stuff! I know people HERE who are making exciting original stuff. So what's
the deal? Jurors who have spent too much time at Crate & Barrel? Show
organizers who think that pretty equals good? People insistent on making
money? Because people buy this crap, this mundane, sugary,
matches-the-couch decoration passed off as art, well, fooey, this is going
to kill people who are actually trying something, actually walking the fine
line between success and failure.
Makes me mad.
Carrie
Carrie Jacobson
Pawcatuck, CT
mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
J./B. Moore on thu 3 jun 99
> Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
snip
>Because people buy this crap, this mundane, sugary,
> matches-the-couch decoration passed off as art,
Carrie, this makes me sad too. I think you hit the nail on the head
with this comment. The fact is, people don't come to shows unless there
is something to buy, and unless we all make a concerted effort at
education the stuff they buy will be the "pretty" stuff. Since that's
what sells, that determines what gets made.
So what do we do in the way of public education?
We can start with the state arts councils and their PR departments, then
work through the convention/visitors' bureaus. If people know news
writers, then convince them to do a story on the good stuff, not the
saw-blade painters, and include many, many pictures. It's not going to
happen immediately, but being consistent will bring changes in 2-5
years.
Good luck!
Julia Moore
Indianapolis Art Center/Broad Ripple Art Fair
Tom Wirt on thu 3 jun 99
Carrie....
I personally think you're right. The shows are getting boring. We even
hear it from customers. There was a bit of discussion on this a couple of
months ago.
It's probably a negative spiral we're in. Shows get bigger. To fill space
they take in lower quality (read that as less original or lower quality).
As the quality drops, the top end people drop out. And many people who have
been craftspeople for some time are able to build markets so they don't have
to do shows. So the unique stuff doesn't even get sent in for jurying.
I think we're on the cusp of several major changes in the way the market
works.
1). Customers will rely on high quality gift shops to screen work for
handmade and top quality.
2). Many craftspeople are running their own shops and stocking with high
quality work not their own and by others.
3). The Internet will be a force to be reckoned with as customers get used
to buying from it. Think about it, open the kiln, shoot a few pictures with
your digital camera, post them on the net a few hours later. As pieces
sell, take them off the page. WOW!
Lets face it. Doing retail shows is Hard Work....even Tony C won't do them
and he's one of the hardest working people we know. Truly a bearcat for a
potter. Lug in the tent, lug in the booth, lug in 300 or 400 pots, set up,
sit there for 2 or 3 days NOT BEING ABLE TO PRODUCE ANYTHING, and then have
to pack up the leftovers, lug it all out....and if it rains...........
The trends above are being hastened by the imported and manufactured work
that is being misrepresented (lets not get that started again) and that work
is starting to infiltrate shows. So the legitimate people (whether wheel,
hand, cast, rammed or whatever) get out and the shows get more boring.
I've dribbled on long enough. We would stop retail shows entirely. If it
weren't for the mailing list that accounts for 30-50% of sales at any given
show, it wouldn't be worth it.
It's al a part of the Disney-fication of the world. Every thing safe,
everything the same, don't have to think, just do what Martha Stewart tells
you to do.
Tom Wirt
Clay Coyote Pottery
17614 240th St.
Hutchinson, MN 55350
320-587-2599 fax 320-234-6849
claypot@hutchtel.net
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
>
> Lighthouses. Well, Cape Elizabeth lighthouse and Portland headlight.
>
> Perfect(ly boring) pottery. Ho hum, could have bought that at Pier 1. >
Cripes, what is the problem? I know people are making exciting original
> stuff! I know people HERE who are making exciting original stuff. So
what's
> the deal?
Philip Schroeder on thu 3 jun 99
In a message dated 99-06-02 18:23:51 EDT, you write:
<< Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
>>
Art/Craft fairs is a very conservative marketplace . Risk taking work
doesn't sell well and booth fees/expenses keep going up. My guess is that
the people looking for cutting edge, inventive, risk taking art/craft work
are probably looking in galleries rather than art fairs. At least, that's
my observation.
Phil Schroeder in Chicago
Gayle Bair on thu 3 jun 99
Carrie,
I found it interesting that you wrote this as I just
experienced it here in Colorado.
I did a juried show with 2 of my very creative friends who produce
beautiful one of a kind pieces. I had one of a kind fountains.
It wasn't until we brought our prices down below the mass
produced, really unaesthetic slip cast work that we began to sell.
Go figure!!!
Gayle Bair
gaylebair@earthlink.net
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
Here in southern New England, we have some good shows. Or, we *had* some
good shows. Ten, 12 years ago, the Mystic Outdoor Art show was Exciting! I
could hardly wait for it, knowing I would see plenty of pieces that were
interesting, edgy, creative, wild -- dangerous! disturbing! new!.
Now? White clapboard homes with white picket fences and colorful flowers
tumbling over.
Lighthouses. Well, Cape Elizabeth lighthouse and Portland headlight.
Perfect(ly boring) pottery. Ho hum, could have bought that at Pier 1. And I
have to ask myself why anyone would bother making it. And how anyone could
make it and not just be bored to death.
Cripes, what is the problem? I know people are making exciting original
stuff! I know people HERE who are making exciting original stuff. So what's
the deal? Jurors who have spent too much time at Crate & Barrel? Show
organizers who think that pretty equals good? People insistent on making
money? Because people buy this crap, this mundane, sugary,
matches-the-couch decoration passed off as art, well, fooey, this is going
to kill people who are actually trying something, actually walking the fine
line between success and failure.
Makes me mad.
Carrie
Carrie Jacobson
Pawcatuck, CT
mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
Carolynn Palmer on fri 4 jun 99
Does cutting edge crapola equal "quality" at a show?
When I am shopping, I love shows that have wonderfully made, suitable for
their purpose, functional items on display in the booths. I might look at
the exciting original stuff, and be wowed, or even inspired - BUT if I am
going make purchases I want handmade quality things that obviously aren't
from Crate & Barrel.
Carrie, it seems apparent, you didn't go to the show looking for things to
purchase. You wanted to be wowed. You wanted to just see exciting and
original stuff that made you edgy and nervous. That doesn't put money into
anyone's pocket. Except the organizers who get the booth fees and then that
won't last long either. If the public doesn't make enough purchases so that
the exhibitors can make enough money to pay the show fees (and eat, etc.) the
show will soon fold.
In my opinion as both an exhibitor and a shopper, I like shows that have a
mix . Quality things that wow and quality things that sell. Both funk and
functional.
I don't think "quality at shows" has anything to do with being blown away by
wild, creative, disturbing or cutting edge work. Could it be that maybe the
jurors of this show recognized finely made art and craft they knew would
appeal to the buying public?
Carolynn Palmer, Somerset Center, Michigan
Margo Traywick on fri 4 jun 99
One problem in my part of the country (Southwest Arkansas) is that many
people think if a pot is not blue is isn't "pottery." I plan to get
back into shows by the fall. This is one of my "attention getting"
plans. - I plan to have a video made of me with the clay, throwing AND
handbuilding. Then a brief segment on bisque, then glazing and firing,
and finally, opening the kiln.
Many places I go offer electricity. A little 13' tv/vcr can be set on a
sturdy shelf above head height.
A friend of my dads' always try to set up his wheel and do demos. It is
fun to watch when he takes his wire and cuts a piece in half right after
he has finished throwing. The crowd gasps! I have seen folks pass
other good potters and stop to buy from him (it is the entertainment
aspect, I am sure.)
Many people want mugs or bowls. I am planning some "odd" but functional
pieces to fill that want.
Julia Moore has the idea .... "educate our customers" ..... I think it
is kinda like when I was teaching 8th grade English ...you gotta get
their attention first!
Margo ...... "This CLAYART family is the greatest!"
Elias Portor on fri 4 jun 99
maybe people want something different, they will always come back to the
"original" once they have played with the whimsical commercial store brand
type. Its just something fun and refreshing, take it for the ride and get off
when its over. You play and have fun with it without compromising your
passion. eportor
carrie or peter jacobson wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
>
> Here in southern New England, we have some good shows. Or, we *had* some
> good shows. Ten, 12 years ago, the Mystic Outdoor Art show was Exciting! I
> could hardly wait for it, knowing I would see plenty of pieces that were
> interesting, edgy, creative, wild -- dangerous! disturbing! new!.
>
> Now? White clapboard homes with white picket fences and colorful flowers
> tumbling over.
>
> Lighthouses. Well, Cape Elizabeth lighthouse and Portland headlight.
>
> Perfect(ly boring) pottery. Ho hum, could have bought that at Pier 1. And I
> have to ask myself why anyone would bother making it. And how anyone could
> make it and not just be bored to death.
>
> Cripes, what is the problem? I know people are making exciting original
> stuff! I know people HERE who are making exciting original stuff. So what's
> the deal? Jurors who have spent too much time at Crate & Barrel? Show
> organizers who think that pretty equals good? People insistent on making
> money? Because people buy this crap, this mundane, sugary,
> matches-the-couch decoration passed off as art, well, fooey, this is going
> to kill people who are actually trying something, actually walking the fine
> line between success and failure.
>
> Makes me mad.
>
> Carrie
>
> Carrie Jacobson
> Pawcatuck, CT
> mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
Forrest Snyder on fri 4 jun 99
Carrie, Julia, et al,
My feeling is that the ceramics marketplace has become more profitable in
recent years, and thus has attracted more producers. This cuts across all
price ranges from inexpensive local craft shows to the high end urban
galleries. In the end, there will be some shake out and consolidation, but
none the less, I think the marketplace has grown. I'm sure Clayart readers
like Wendy Rosen could quantify this. At a certain level, the consumer has
become more aware (but not INFORMED) about the product. Martha Stewart and the
mass media have created a HUGE demand for these romanticized objects. However,
the consumer is not willing to pay the price for the truly handmade and thus
settles for a mass produced item. Furthermore, as (the collective) we have
more cash to spend on luxury items these days, we are less critical on which
items those dollars get spent. It's a hard problem.
My gut feeling is that 80 - 90% of the consumers do not want to know anything
about what they purchase. They just want the d*mn vase that looks pretty much
like Martha's. On the other hand, there's probably a 5 or 10% group of people
that are receptive to becoming more informed about art and craft. Given the
information in an understandable format, they'll choose the higher priced,
handmade item. The responsibility is the producers. It's a great PR case
study. Perhaps we should look at something like the automobile market place?
Did you ever notice that a few years back some of the Oldsmobiles began using
a front grill that looked remarkably similar to a BMW's (especially in one's
rearview mirror)? I'm sure this was a studied change. And at the same time BMW
introduced some lower priced (i.e. more assembly line produced) and HIGHER
priced (i.e. handmade and attention to detail) models. All the while, makers
like Ferrari, Lotus, et cetera had years of back orders for their truly
handmade cars! Now, which is the "best" car is very debatable; however, there
can be no arguing that ALL of these cars were selling in great numbers. I
think it's all advertising reaching targeted consumers.
Forrest Snyder, Editor
Critical Ceramics
editor@criticalceramics.org
http://www.criticalceramics.org
> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------
> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:29:34 EDT
> From: "J./B. Moore"
> Subject: Re: quality at shows
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > Is it me, or is this really happening: Are art/craft shows getting boring?
> snip
> >Because people buy this crap, this mundane, sugary,
> > matches-the-couch decoration passed off as art,
>
> Carrie, this makes me sad too. I think you hit the nail on the head
> with this comment. The fact is, people don't come to shows unless there
> is something to buy, and unless we all make a concerted effort at
> education the stuff they buy will be the "pretty" stuff. Since that's
> what sells, that determines what gets made.
>
> So what do we do in the way of public education?
Burtt on sat 5 jun 99
This is a good discussion for those of us trying to push our pots at
shows.
I have come to this conclusion: I may consider myself a craftsman;
fine. I may even consider myself an artist; fine. But at some point I
have to consider myself a business and marketing person. If I am cutting
edge all the time (and I'm not sure that I am any of the time), I won't
make a living in this market.
At a recent show, I was set up next to a wood worker, who had very
nice, framed wood-carvings of various country scenes. It was obvious he
was skilled and artistic in his work, and he was concerned about the
number of woodworkers who were turning to cheaply-made products. He also
sold some cutting boards, also very nice pieces, but very basic stuff
for a veteran wood worker. He told me that he was getting out of the
cutting board business, because it was just not what he wanted to do.
Well, when the two-day show was done, he had sold out of cutting boards,
but had a bad show for his art work. In fact, he made twice as much in
cutting board sales (at $20 each as I remember) than I did in pots.
My advice to him: don't give up those cutting boards.
We face the same thing with pottery. I love to do raku and will
always do it, but I also have to know that in the deep South, pottery
has to be functional. I can't tell you how many times somebody has asked
me: ``Now, exactly what would you do with something like that?''
So, I either have to make functional stoneware (and luckily I love
making functional stoneware) or I have to rely on the 5-10 percent in my
market that is interested in art AND actually has the money to spend on
it.
That's my two cents.
Steve Burtt
Ocean Springs, Mississippi, where I am preparing for a Blueberry Jubilee
in Poplarville, Mississippi, next weekend and you can bet I'm putting
out all the functional pots I can find.
John Hesselberth on sun 6 jun 99
John Baymore wrote:
>
>Take the same money, time, and effort that you would have invested in a
>retail craft fair and put it into some other marketing effort.
I can no longer resist joining this thread. John's advice is right on
the money and I hope everyone of us will take it to heart.
Retail craft fairs in North America are in a slow death spiral. The only
reason they are not in a fast death spiral is that we potters, and other
craft people, aren't very good at economics and we continue to let the
commercial promoters take advantage of us. There are, of course, a few
(very few, but a few) commercial promoters who have managed a successful
merger of our interests and their's. But for the most part they have
designed the system to assure that they make money and we probably won't.
John's post describes why.
In my opinion the only shows remaining where standards are high and
exciting, quality work might be present are those sponsored by art
museums, community art associations and art/craft guilds. And even there
the quality is mixed with some groups doing a better job than others.
But at least there our objectives are pretty much in alignment with those
of the promoter--it's just that the quality of the execution is variable.
The reason that there is very little exciting, high quality work at craft
fairs is that people doing that kind of work bail out of craft fairs as
quickly as possible and sell their work through selected galleries who
value it and promote it. Given the attendees that craft fairs attract in
today's world, I believe the only potters who do consistently well are
production potters who make inexpensive, "in" pots. I don't mean, in any
way, to put down that type of work--it is an extremely valid part of the
total spectrum of our craft, but it is not where new ground is broken.
For my own work, I am bailing out of retail craft fairs as fast as I can
bail. I will be 50% wholesale this year and, hopefully, 80-90% next
year. The 50% "discount" I have to take is a bargain compared to the
real economics of today's retail craft fairs. I have no energy to spend
trying to revive retail craft fairs. I believe, they are as dead as the
deadest dinosaur and all our Clayart energy combined will not have one
smidgen of impact on reviving them. And if you are interested in
wholesaling, I strongly recommend you talk to Wendy Rosen's organization.
The comments I have made definitely do not apply to her wholesale
shows--I hope they never do. I participated in Wendy's February
Philadelpia show as part of the Pa Guild of Craftsmen booth and was very
impressed with what I saw.
John Hesselberth
Frog Pond Pottery
P.O. Box 88
Pocopson, PA 19366 USA
EMail: john@frogpondpottery.com web site: http://www.frogpondpottery.com
"It is time for potters to claim their proper field. Pottery in its pure
form relies neither on sculptural additions nor on pictorial decorations.
but on the counterpoint of form, design, colour, texture and the quality
of the material, all directed to a function." Michael Cardew in "Pioneer
Pottery"
carrie or peter jacobson on tue 8 jun 99
I have done more thinking about my rant of last week about shows. Much of
this thinking has been prompted by your responses to me personally and on
the list, and I thank you for them.
At heart, I am a utilitarian girl. I don't like teapots that don't look
like teapots, and I am not wild about most ceramic sculpture. But what I do
like is when someone puts a bit of themselves into the pieces -- in the
long run, I think, that is all I am talking about, when I am talking about
originality.
A friend and I went to a show in Northampton, Mass., over the weekend, and
saw some really wonderful work there. It was original, it was heartfelt, it
was exciting. But is was not the sort of in your face, totally outre, I've
got tattoos on my eyelids kind of art. The work that attracted me offered
something more than technical mastery.
I suspect, at least in the pottery area of these shows, that the boring,
disappointing artists I was discussing originally are people who have
become technically proficient; they are good enough to produce nearly
anything. And perhaps for this reason alone, they are not willing to take
the chance, to try for the thing they can not do, to reach for the
ornamentation, to allow the dent, the uneven rim, the out of the ordinary
that say: A human with heart made this!
That's what I saw at the Paradise show. Art technically proficient, but
fully human. Unduplicatable. It put soul above craft; the artists used
craft to achieve soul.
John Baymore's Follow the Money idea is, I am sure, right. Of course
art/craft shows invite artists who sell. That's how the artists make money,
like the shows, return, and so that's how the sponsors make money.
So then, in the end, the fault lies back with us -- the artists, the
craftspeople -- for failing to educate the consumer. If all they have
coming at them is advertisements, flyers from Pier One, sales at Crate &
Barrel, then we are srewed. And as John said, this problem is being
magnified by the loss of arts education in the schools...
It is up to us to teach them, the consumer, the potential buyer, to prefer
that which is a little off, a hair less than perfect, and which perhaps has
a vitality that perfection will never achieve.
Now, I know that this is a lost cause in many respects. Most of my mother's
friends, for instance, in their late 60s and early 70s, women with money
who go to shows, most of them are pretty set in their ways. Though,
interestingly, as I think about them, many of them have developed
consciousness over their years. It is more the people my age, mid-40s --
and younger -- who seem to want this perfection.
As to John Baymore's blue pots with flowers, I bet that I could look all
throughout every show in New England and not see pots like yours. Now, I
don't know your work, and I have never met you, but I am all but certain
that you put your spirit into your work the same way you put it into your
voice here on this list. There is nothing wrong with blue pots with
flowers, as long as they are your pots, your flowers, your blue.
Best,
Carrie
Carrie Jacobson
Pawcatuck, CT
mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
Tom Wirt on wed 9 jun 99
Hi Carrie.....
I guess when you go looking for certain things in ceramics, you have your
own criteria.
Responding to several of your additional thoughts:
> At heart, I am a utilitarian girl. I don't like teapots that don't look
> like teapots, and I am not wild about most ceramic sculpture. But what I
do
> like is when someone puts a bit of themselves into the pieces -- in the
> long run, I think, that is all I am talking about, when I am talking about
> originality.
I understand that in current times, "originality" counts for more than
quality, good design, etc., etc. But why? What is it that makes
"originality" such a godhead? Every piece of handmade ceramics is original
and different. Why should we have to moosh (technical term) the side of the
pot, do some decorative thing to the side....just to show our originality.
This seems to be an awfully egocentric way of deciding on what's good and
what's not.
> I suspect, at least in the pottery area of these shows, that the boring,
> disappointing artists I was discussing originally are people who have
> become technically proficient; they are good enough to produce nearly
> anything. And perhaps for this reason alone, they are not willing to take
> the chance, to try for the thing they can not do, to reach for the
> ornamentation, to allow the dent, the uneven rim, the out of the ordinary
> that say: A human with heart made this!
As I imply above....what's wrong with technical proficiency? I would
venture to say that the biggest problem in functional pottery today is that
there is so little technical proficiency...that we've tried to substitute
"originality" for technical proficiency. No one wants to spend the 5 to 10
years of daily work that it takes to become technically proficient. It's
the instant success syndrome.
I would further submit that most of the top pots made in this world over the
centuries were by technically proficient people, who then, and only then are
free to develop an individual style if that's necessary.
You decry the availability of technically proficient pots at shows. But as
people develop toward "their styles", they have to have somewhere to sell
those wares. We don't spring full blown into the world.
If you sense some defensiveness on my part, you're right. I'm a developing
potter who has decided I'd better get technically proficient if I ever want
to be a good potter. I'm 5 year into it and figure there's at least 5 to 10
more just to BEGINNING to get the throwing down. Gl;azing will be another
10 years or more. I know, that if I consciously try to develop "my style",
it will look contrived. Style, I believe< has to develop from within and
will come out as proficiency allows. "You've got to learn the notes so well
they disappear before you can truly play the Rach 3"
This last weekend we sold about $8,500 of those "technically proficient"
pots. People are dying to get them so they can USE them in their everyday
life. As has been noted, at least in the American culture, people are not
raised with an aesthetic appreciation. They have to start somewhere, and
the most non-threatening way to start is at a street fair looking at
ordinary pots. If you make it too much of an "art experience" it quickly
becomes threatening to buy or use.
Potters will not be able to sell the top end pots, if they don't develop the
everyday user.
To go back to your first question..."Where have all the potters gone?" and
my original answer, after becoming technically proficient and putting in
their 20 years of development, they don't want to or have to do street
fairs. What you see now at the everyday street fair is the developing
artisan. What you see at the "art shows" are the ego statement pots. (I'm
generalizing here). The other stuff is being sold in a 50 mile radius (per
Mel) or through galleries and shops. John Baymore does 1 show a year to
keep his local presence alive. You will just have to go to that show to see
his pots.
In the meantime, I've got to go throw some semi-technically proficient pots.
Thank God I've finally got a niche!
Tom Wirt
dave morrison on thu 10 jun 99
i enjoyed this tom. i too spent years trying to be a "good potter" rather
than someone with a great flare for the imaginative. i think that also
there is the problem with many, as to whether they are a potter,
(craftsman), or artist. i struggled to be an "artist" for years, and
realized that the best work i ever did was when i was just being a
craftsman. that doesn't mean they were artistically devoid pots. they did
show more of me in them, and also were technically superior to my "art"
pots. i also have rebelled to an extent against these fancy schmancy ,
(another technical term), pots by making mine very unadorned by my hand. i
dont get a specially crafted stick and start poking at or whacking my pot.
i try to make a well crafted pot and then choose a firing style such as raku
or salt to put what i think of as a more natural decoration on it. ahhhh,
but i ramble on here. just wanted to say that i enjoyed your comments.
dave.
p.s., Winnipeg folk fest coming up. if any of you are there and see a
white73 v.w. pop up bus driving around from Minnesota, thats me! wave! :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Wirt
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Quality at Shows
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi Carrie.....
>
>I guess when you go looking for certain things in ceramics, you have your
>own criteria.
>
>Responding to several of your additional thoughts:
>
>> At heart, I am a utilitarian girl. I don't like teapots that don't look
>> like teapots, and I am not wild about most ceramic sculpture. But what I
>do
>> like is when someone puts a bit of themselves into the pieces -- in the
>> long run, I think, that is all I am talking about, when I am talking
about
>> originality.
>
>I understand that in current times, "originality" counts for more than
>quality, good design, etc., etc. But why? What is it that makes
>"originality" such a godhead? Every piece of handmade ceramics is original
>and different. Why should we have to moosh (technical term) the side of
the
>pot, do some decorative thing to the side....just to show our originality.
>This seems to be an awfully egocentric way of deciding on what's good and
>what's not.
>
>> I suspect, at least in the pottery area of these shows, that the boring,
>> disappointing artists I was discussing originally are people who have
>> become technically proficient; they are good enough to produce nearly
>> anything. And perhaps for this reason alone, they are not willing to take
>> the chance, to try for the thing they can not do, to reach for the
>> ornamentation, to allow the dent, the uneven rim, the out of the ordinary
>> that say: A human with heart made this!
>
>As I imply above....what's wrong with technical proficiency? I would
>venture to say that the biggest problem in functional pottery today is that
>there is so little technical proficiency...that we've tried to substitute
>"originality" for technical proficiency. No one wants to spend the 5 to 10
>years of daily work that it takes to become technically proficient. It's
>the instant success syndrome.
>
>I would further submit that most of the top pots made in this world over
the
>centuries were by technically proficient people, who then, and only then
are
>free to develop an individual style if that's necessary.
>
>You decry the availability of technically proficient pots at shows. But as
>people develop toward "their styles", they have to have somewhere to sell
>those wares. We don't spring full blown into the world.
>
>If you sense some defensiveness on my part, you're right. I'm a developing
>potter who has decided I'd better get technically proficient if I ever want
>to be a good potter. I'm 5 year into it and figure there's at least 5 to
10
>more just to BEGINNING to get the throwing down. Gl;azing will be another
>10 years or more. I know, that if I consciously try to develop "my style",
>it will look contrived. Style, I believe< has to develop from within and
>will come out as proficiency allows. "You've got to learn the notes so well
>they disappear before you can truly play the Rach 3"
>
>This last weekend we sold about $8,500 of those "technically proficient"
>pots. People are dying to get them so they can USE them in their everyday
>life. As has been noted, at least in the American culture, people are not
>raised with an aesthetic appreciation. They have to start somewhere, and
>the most non-threatening way to start is at a street fair looking at
>ordinary pots. If you make it too much of an "art experience" it quickly
>becomes threatening to buy or use.
>
>Potters will not be able to sell the top end pots, if they don't develop
the
>everyday user.
>
>To go back to your first question..."Where have all the potters gone?" and
>my original answer, after becoming technically proficient and putting in
>their 20 years of development, they don't want to or have to do street
>fairs. What you see now at the everyday street fair is the developing
>artisan. What you see at the "art shows" are the ego statement pots. (I'm
>generalizing here). The other stuff is being sold in a 50 mile radius
(per
>Mel) or through galleries and shops. John Baymore does 1 show a year to
>keep his local presence alive. You will just have to go to that show to
see
>his pots.
>
>In the meantime, I've got to go throw some semi-technically proficient
pots.
>Thank God I've finally got a niche!
>
>Tom Wirt
>
Kathi LeSueur on thu 10 jun 99
In a message dated 6/9/99 3:52:02 PM, claypot@hutchtel.net writes:
<< I would further submit that most of the top pots made in this world over
the
centuries were by technically proficient people, who then, and only then are
free to develop an individual style if that's necessary.
>>
Years ago while in college I had a Professor of sculpture from England named
John Mills. He was appalled at the American art school system. He couldn't
understand why we were being graded on our ability to make "art" when we were
all so lacking in technique. I can't tell you how many good sculptures were
lost to the ineptitude of students who tried to make a plaster mold so their
work could be cast. Professor Mills emphasized technique. He felt that if we
had talent the "art" would follow once we had learned the skills to execute
our ideas. As I look at much of the clay work being shown today at major
shows I can't help but remember his words. The lack of skill is so apparent.
The flaws are ignore as if to be expected in pieces of "art". And I have to
agree that much of what I see falls into the category of "the emperor's new
clothes" or as my partner says, "there's no 'there' there."
Kathi LeSueur
cyberscape on fri 11 jun 99
One thing that I did not see mentioned in this thread is that it has
become increasingly popular for promoters and "arts committees" to save
a few bucks by either having "do it yourself juries" or by hiring local
arts politicos to do the slide jurying. Great, if the jury is really
qualified. Provincial, boring, same old stuff, or knock offs of knock
offs if the jury is not. High quality jurors pick high qaulity shows,
and often attract innovative and exciting lesser known artists who are
looking for exposure.
Harvey Sadow
John Baymore on fri 11 jun 99
------------------
(clip)
I understand that in current times, =22originality=22 counts for more than
quality, good design, etc., etc. But why? What is it that makes
=22originality=22 such a godhead? Every piece of handmade ceramics is =
original
and different. Why should we have to moosh (technical term) the side of
the
pot, do some decorative thing to the side....just to show our originality.
(snip)
Great post, Tom=21
This thread is taking on a LONG life =3Cg=3E. Might even be productive. =
(I'm
smiling....I'm smiling.) As to the following..... generalizations are
always dangerous. That being said...........
=22Originality=22 and =22inventiveness=22 are a cornerstone of American =
culture.
It is an offshoot of our facination with individualism and freedom. If it
ain't original ....... it's same old same old. If it isn't streching the
accepted norms....... you aren't free.
To be valued in our academic institutions or amongst the folks who consider
themselves the aesthetes of our culture, you have to be doing something
=22different=22. And as you mentioned, doing something different, poorly, =
is
frequently valued higher than doing something more common, well.
It is part of our core cultural values, I am afraid =3Cwg=3E. We pick it up
with our mother 's milk. Comes, I think, from our relatively recent
cultural history as rebels and outcasts breaking away and seeking a free
life. Americans came here (and still do) to get away from restrictions.
Not saying freedom is a bad thing...... but freedom has it's price..... and
this is one aesthetic one =3Cg=3E.
One of the main differences with the valuation of much Japanese work in
their culture is that rather than value individualism and freedom as the
highest personal attainment.... they value group interaction, harmonious
relationships, and conforming to societal values quite highly. So well
executed, highly crafted pieces made in the tradition of their grandfathers
(yes..... sexism is a problem in Japan) is not looked at as somehow
inferior because the forms, glaze, and ideas are not brand new. This is
what is expected of you...... fits the accepted patterns. Such work is
recognized as valid and important on the cultural yardstick.
Here in America we toss that type of thing off as looking like so-and-so's
work. Highly derivative. Nothing new happening there. Look somewhere
else. That the pieces may STILL have great aesthetic merit is lost simply
by the lack of =22newness=22.
In Japan they have been busy chasing our cultural values since WWII.... and
the ceramics world is changing too. They just change slower than we do.
In some ways this change is good...... tradition CAN be a restricting
thing. Hopefully they will not lose ALL their other core values in the mad
rush to Westernization, and end up where we are now. Leach (oh god....not
HIM=21) laments this in his book =22A Potter in Japan=22 from the 50's.
There should be room for all views in the world running in balance (sigh).
Here in the US too.
American culture is pervaded with the =22new=22 and =22improved=22 of most
everything...... even if it ISN'T actually better in any other sense other
than it is simply different. Rampant consumerism DEMANDS this attitude and
it is carefully cultivated by the mass media and merchandisers. If you
don't have the NEW and IMPROVED one..... you're just out of it and
hopelessly being left in the dust. (How can you live without it?) If
this attitude weren't kept as the driving force of day to day life, our
economy would go down the tubes fast. (Do you really NEED the new
Vegamatic?)
Our aesthetic lives are not kept somehow separate from this subtle
subliminal message.
Don't get me wrong.... nothing wrong with =22pushing the envelope=22. And I
enjoy using this Pentium II =3Cg=3E. But to value it above and beyond all =
else
begats a lot of people who are trying to do things way beyond their
capacities or inherent interests simply to comply with the expected
outcome. Hence we get a lot of work that is pretty devoid of much
significance other than being something we've never seen before.
Sometimes the difficulty in writing an =22artist's statement=22 that ends up
actually saying pretty much nothing is because there IS no rationale for
the work EXCEPT that it is =22different=22. Different for different's =
sake.
=3Cg=3E
Americans are also in love with the concept of =22faster is better=22. So =
this
attitude of always pushing the envelope of accepted practice speeds our
journey to ............. somewhere. We don't know where we are going....
but we are getting there faster....so that must be good =3Cg=3E.
This quest for speed affects technical skills. Americans want to get to
the =22self expression=22 mode FAST. They don't want to wait for the =
technical
and the skill acquisition to take place...they want to make something that
is =22ME=22. Now. So the idea of learning the skills of craft FIRST gets =
in
the way of instant personal statement. Thank god...... those who stick
with it long enough often have the technical skills catch up through the
years.
The instant gratification syndrome is probably also one offshoot of the
attention span issues contributed to by TV and the =22Sesame Street=22 =
approach
to education.
By having artists constantly pushing the limits....... we tend to reach
places faster than other cultures who might take more time to break out of
the norms. So in that sense it IS good. We get the rare new works that
truly have merit more quickly than we might have if other values ruled out
collective psyche.
For the rare few...... that is key here, and has always been the case with
artists in any culture ....... for the rare few.......... this leads to the
evolution of some pretty powerful work AND in a short time frame. For most
of us mere mortals, it just leads to a bunch of =22different stuff=22 =
getting
generated quickly =3Cg=3E.
The Japanese have cultural core values that instill value in the arts and
the aesthetic. Americans have cultural core values that instill a love of
individual expression and =22pushing on the sides of the box=22. We each
have much to learn from the other. Sh'kata ga arimasen.
So...... bunch of grist for the mill. I expect it'll be grinding shortly
=3Cg=3E.
Best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.COM
=22Earth, Water, and Fire climbing kiln firing workshop Aug. 20-29,1999=22
claypots on sat 12 jun 99
------------------
I can't speak for all universities, but I can speak for the one I attended. =
The
ceramics program was run by a well-known potter who insisted that we make =
=22art=22
without ever showing us the techniques to use in working with clay. We were=
all
given our one bag of clay and told to hand-build, without any instruction =
given.
Same with throwing on the wheel--one demonstration and that was it. The =
glaze
room with all of its chemicals was open to us at any time and we were told =
to
experiment. There was no mention of safety, and yes, lead was one of the =
main
chemicals used. Of course that was 20+ years ago. The classes in college =
whet
my appetite for clay however, I did not learn to be a potter till many years
after college. All of the skills I learned were from other potters willing =
to
take time with a novice and teach me the basics. Today, my cousin's son is
getting better basic instruction in a high school program than we ever =
received
in college. I always believed that skill and a basic working knowledge of =
your
medium was required before =22great art=22 could be made.
Debra
carrie or peter jacobson on sat 12 jun 99
Tom Wirt, I believe, sent a lengthy post to the list that really got me
thinking. My original rant welled up from an immediate emotional response
to the disappointing show in my hometown (which I was not in... wonder if
my response would have been different had I entered my own work?)
The subsequent discussion on the list has prompted me to attempt to put
words to this emotion, a task I find more difficult than I had imagined.
But with the help of Elise Willa Pincu's post and John Baymore's posts
today, I think I am starting to understand my fledgling potter's esthetic.
I think it is the insistence on sets that disappoints me, when I see
potters at arts shows. It is the insistence on a pattern, a thought, a
motif -- somehow, to my eye, to my head, this insistence diminishes the
originality of the work.
I do understand that we live in America, but I doubt that I'm the only one
in America who, much like the Japanese family Elise described, buys a plate
here, a bowl there, simply because I like them. How has it come to matter
that things match? I bet a sociologist could trace this back to basic
middle-class mentality, that matching sets spoke of wealth -- but who
knows.
As Tom said, yes, there does need to be technical proficiency. Yes, at my
stage of development, frankly, it would be difficult at best for me to sit
down and throw two dozen identical bowls/plates/cups, whatever. Would I
like to be able to do this? Sure, even if only to abandon it.
Also as Tom said, we do not have to poke holes and make dents in things to
certify that they are handmade. But the fact that we can is fun, and is
visually challenging. So in my book there is no harm in it.
In the long run, I hope I do not end up making sets of dishes. I hope I am
not forced to make sets of dishes if I am to try my hand at making a
living at this. I'd like to develop a color palette, maybe, I am willing to
go that far -- even a light palette and a dark one, and keep trying for a
certain feel -- right now, I am aiming for a light, curvy feel to my
porcelain -- and stick there.
Carrie
Carrie Jacobson
Pawcatuck, CT
mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
Barney Adams on sun 13 jun 99
Hi Carrie,
I've been bypassing most of this discussion. I dont throw anything identical.
I agree that the techical expertise to be able to do this should be there. The
point
is "am I using this not throwing anything identical as an excuse to hide my
lack of
skill". I wrestled with this for some time. I work very hard at my throwing
skill and
I may sometime tackle the ability to throw the same piece repeatedly. I have a
lot of respect for the potters that can. I also am not obsessed with throwing
with
the least amount of action to produce several hundred pieces a day. I am not a
production potter I throw for the simple pleasure of throwing. The act of
throwing
is the reason I do all this. You have to look inside yourself for how all this
fits in for
you. You have to be critical in terms of are you using the excuse for not
applying
a discipline due to lazyiness or because you truly feel it's not needed for the
path
you want to take in clay. You are the only one this matters to. If you lie to
yourself
it will catch up with you, but what others think is their own problem and they
need to
deal with that. If it helps George Orh never threw the same pot. I have always
tried to push the limits on my throwing and in doing that have produced pots
outside the
normal (I'm sure you all know what I mean). A few of these had very interesting
things going
on. I love the way porcelain folds when it collapses(and it collapses SOOO
easily).
I have fired and glazed some of these secretly feeling I was cheating. Then I
saw what
Mr. Orh did. Of the two pot I ot in the show one was a black vase that is
twisted slightly
in the middle. It was the most popular. It is also very had to throw. So you
police what you
do and be honest with yourself.
Relax and enjoy the process.
Barney
carrie or peter jacobson wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Tom Wirt, I believe, sent a lengthy post to the list that really got me
> thinking. My original rant welled up from an immediate emotional response
> to the disappointing show in my hometown (which I was not in... wonder if
> my response would have been different had I entered my own work?)
>
> The subsequent discussion on the list has prompted me to attempt to put
> words to this emotion, a task I find more difficult than I had imagined.
>
> But with the help of Elise Willa Pincu's post and John Baymore's posts
> today, I think I am starting to understand my fledgling potter's esthetic.
> I think it is the insistence on sets that disappoints me, when I see
> potters at arts shows. It is the insistence on a pattern, a thought, a
> motif -- somehow, to my eye, to my head, this insistence diminishes the
> originality of the work.
>
> I do understand that we live in America, but I doubt that I'm the only one
> in America who, much like the Japanese family Elise described, buys a plate
> here, a bowl there, simply because I like them. How has it come to matter
> that things match? I bet a sociologist could trace this back to basic
> middle-class mentality, that matching sets spoke of wealth -- but who
> knows.
>
> As Tom said, yes, there does need to be technical proficiency. Yes, at my
> stage of development, frankly, it would be difficult at best for me to sit
> down and throw two dozen identical bowls/plates/cups, whatever. Would I
> like to be able to do this? Sure, even if only to abandon it.
>
> Also as Tom said, we do not have to poke holes and make dents in things to
> certify that they are handmade. But the fact that we can is fun, and is
> visually challenging. So in my book there is no harm in it.
>
> In the long run, I hope I do not end up making sets of dishes. I hope I am
> not forced to make sets of dishes if I am to try my hand at making a
> living at this. I'd like to develop a color palette, maybe, I am willing to
> go that far -- even a light palette and a dark one, and keep trying for a
> certain feel -- right now, I am aiming for a light, curvy feel to my
> porcelain -- and stick there.
>
> Carrie
>
> Carrie Jacobson
> Pawcatuck, CT
> mailto:jacobson@brainiac.com
Ray Aldridge on sun 13 jun 99
At 09:19 AM 6/12/99 EDT, you wrote:
I think it is the insistence on sets that disappoints me, when I see
>potters at arts shows. It is the insistence on a pattern, a thought, a
>motif -- somehow, to my eye, to my head, this insistence diminishes the
>originality of the work.
>
>I do understand that we live in America, but I doubt that I'm the only one
>in America who, much like the Japanese family Elise described, buys a plate
>here, a bowl there, simply because I like them.
However, take into consideration that even if those pots are not bought as
sets, they were undoubtedly made as sets. Throwing (or making in general)
in series is how a given form progresses from acceptable to better to its
highest possible expression. In fact, this to me is the most serious knock
against slipcasting and jiggering as a way of making-- the evolution of the
form is frozen.
If I sit down to throw a dozen soup bowls, I'll have weighed out a dozen
identical balls of clay and I'll try to develop each ball to the best shape
I can within the general parameters of that form. But when I'm done and
the bowls are on the shelf, one or two of them will be better than the
others, in some subtle way. With the next dozen, I'll try to capture that
tiny incremental improvement.
You can't do that if each form you throw has no relation to the previous form.
Clay is so protean a material that potters need a lot of self-imposed
constraints to produce articles of real value, in my opinion. Throwing in
series, exploring a limited range of glazes, sticking to a motif for a
while-- all these are useful constraints.
Ray
Burtt on mon 14 jun 99
Notes from the country...
I love a good craft fair. My wife says I have a tent fetish, because
I'll pull the car over for just about any tent set up on the side of the
road. And now that I am trying to scratch out a living by making pots
and setting up a my own tent...well, I guess you can't get much happier
than that.
I was up in Poplarville, Mississippi, Saturday for the annual
Blueberry Jubilee. Man, it was hot and humid! I broke a sweat putting up
my display, and I didn't dry out until I got home Saturday night. My
booth was set up between a woman who made bird houses out of Lincoln
Logs and then painted them in various college colors and a man who put
colored sand in bottles and sold them to kids.
There were not many potters, which is just fine with me. I go on the
theory that there are just so many pottery dollars out there, and if I
can get them all, that works for me.
I guess one's take on craft fairs is determined by one's
expectations. I've only been doing shows for a couple of years now, and
my only hope is to be able to show my pots to a lot of folks.
And you wouldn't believe how many folks turned out for this
Blueberry Jubilee...despite the heat.
They bought pottery, too. Now, please understand that a good day in
the poorest state in the country is not the same as a good day at other
places, but I was very pleased with the percentage of pottery buyers
there in Poplarville. I sold out of large mixing type bowls and they
bought pitchers, platters, jugs and mugs and I even sold some raku
pieces. Had to explain raku many times, but that's another aspect of
shows that I enjoy. I love it when they ask questions.
By the way, one old lady was standing their looking at the raku and
I started to explain it to her. She said, ``you don't have to tell me
about raku. I have a very old piece of Japanese raku.'' She went on to
explain that she bought it at an auction many years ago. It was so ugly
that nobody wanted it, but she bought it and still cherishes it. She
doesn't know who the artist is, but she knows it is Japanese. She said
it looked nothing like any of the American raku she has seen.
What a pleasure and a privilege it is to be able to meet ordinary
people and talk with them about art.
Now, in September, we've got the Pecan Festival over in Richton,
Mississippi. They've got a guy there who does wood scultures with a
chain saw. Most fascinating thing I've ever seen.
If any of you need an application, just contact me.
Steve Burtt
Ocean Springs, Mississippi
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