Jonathan Kaplan on mon 7 jun 99
Ok I've looked at the current CM with the article on Bobby's new work, and
I have read Donn's critique and some of the replies.
So Donn, what exactly is the point of your critique? Are you critical of
the academic programs? Or are you critical of the work? Or both? I'm not
sure what exactly you mean by rock star status. If I read it correctly,
Bobby's pots, according to you, haven't changed since KCIA and are purely
ego statements and have nothing to do with pottery. They are just
meaningless stacking bowls and have no content. They didn't then, they
don't now. Am I correct?
Does the existance of this work and its glossy representation in CM elevate
Bobby to rock/pottery star status? Heck, I've been in CM many times and
I've never had groupies at my door or become a pottery star.
How does injecting ego into functional pottery manifest itself in weird
ways? (your words) I think that no matter what we make, our ego is in it.
Is there more ego in Bobby's set of stacked bowls than there is in a set of
stacked mixing bowls with pour spouts? A pitcher a mug? Must we all be
humble potters? Then you bring the money element into this and I am really
confused about the point here.
I think that whatever we make, however long it lasts and in whatever
cultural context, our work speaks differently to different people as well
as to us.
Why do you see this as a manifestation of the knowledge and power that
universities have in/over the clay world? I think if you have ever been to
some of the major wholesale and retail venues across the country and looked
with even a small critical eye at the clay work, where is that power? Come
on Donn, Having been at these shows for many years I can't say that I have
ever seen any remnant of what this power/influence is, was, or may be.
Please enlighten me.
Respectfully,
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president
Ceramic Design Group LTD/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
plant location
1280 13th Street Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
jonathan@csn.net
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
Jonathan Kaplan on tue 8 jun 99
>I hit it right on the button didn't I
>
>I don't even to pretend to know you
>but you dared me to enlighten you
>which means to me that we will not see eye to eye on the points I am trying
>to make.
>we probably would have a hard time agreeing on what enlightnment is.
>
>and for as many people who dislike what I am saying, there is an equal group
>out there who have agreed with me. go figure.
>
>
>Donn Buchfinck
>San Francisco
The only thing that you were right on the button is that when you put
things out to the group you also need to remember that your ideas and
thoughts are out there for criticism, agreement, and dialog by many others.
All which occurred. You need to be able to take any criticism or
disagreement at the same time and not resort to puerile responses that
don't support your positiion or erode it at the same time.
I'm sure glad you have the last word on enlightenment and what it is. I
would not be so arrogant as to make that assertion.
You missed the point, Donn, on a few things.
First, is that if you READ my post, I didn't disagree or dislike what you
said. All I asked for was clarification. If saying that something is vague,
or asking for clarification, or asking what is the point , is then taken by
you as criticism, then you have toally misinterpreted my comments to you.
If you can't support what you put out there and can't take the heat, don't
put it out there. And you need to read more carefully.
Second, I didn't dare you to do a damn thing.
I'll read what ever comes across the list and judicioulsy use my delete key
for editing o as to where to But you set yourself up for a response, not
only from me but from many others. And I'll also not be the first to
choose to engage in criticisms when they are called for. Your post called
for exactly that.
I really don't care to see what you call "eye to eye" with you. I'll
listen and critique with an open mind, I'll put my thinking out there for
both you and all 2000 plus subscribers on the list. I have, and probably
will continue, to take some heat as well.
All I ask, and it seems that what the jist of many others were asking is
that you do the same.
I think this subject has been exhausted.
Resepctfully,
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president
Ceramic Design Group LTD/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
plant location
1280 13th Street Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
jonathan@csn.net
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
Donn Buchfinck on tue 8 jun 99
First of all I am critical of the academic environment.
I believe that sculptors and painters have had too much influence in the
ceramic education direction.
Ceramics in the university setting has gone the way that painting and
sculpture, verbiage laden written statement work. With the quality of the
piece being second.
I do not doubt that the work of Bobby silverman is a strong statement, but I
find it lacking. I think you need the statement to go with it to explain it,
I think this is the problem.
By rockstarism I mean that the need to be recognized as an artist and have
groupies and roadies. It is meant as a metaphor for the cult of celebrity.
With the work being the vehicle to get the college teaching job and to get
into the good galleries and magazines to show, then to do the coveted
workshop and be at NCECA. It is a circuit, or circus.
As to whether the stacking bowls have meaning, I feel you can find meaning
in most things, but to who I am referring to about the bowls is the non
potter. If a non potter came up to the bowls and looked at them and says to
themselves, I can stack bows, then there is a problem. A lot of "Ceramic
Art" is made for the ceramic artist, where you need an extensive background
in the subject before you can get the subtle nuances of the work in front of
you. For any art to work it has to be able to talk to the lamen. The non
ceramics trained person, if it doesn't, then it fails as a work of fine art.
Not as a pot but as a piece of fine art sculpture.
I also wanted to defend the comment about the stacked nesting bowls with
pouring spouts reference that Jonathan said. I understand it is a reference
to Chris Staley, and the fact that he has made stacked nesting bowls and have
had them in publications. I think it is important to understand that he
makes them as a way to go back to the well, the source for his work, he
made them when he was in grad school and I think he makes them again to
remind himself of where he is from. He makes very dynamic sculptural pots,
that do not need a statement to support the work. The two types of work
blend together to create a very strong personal statement in clay.
As to the major wholesale and retail venues across the country there are
different forces working there. The universities have no say there, it is
customer driven, making pots that are acceptable to the public. I make two
types of pots in my life, I make the sculptural ones and I make earthenware
pots with lots of color. I sell the colorful pots at the sales, I would
never show my sculptural work in an art fair venue.
I think some people have taken my statement wrong, this was in know way a
personal attack on Bobby, It was me saying, I have seen the work he has made
before and I liked that better.
That is all it really comes to, that statement "I liked the other work
better"
time to trim bowls and dip pots for that sale, write to me and I will again
try to remove the foot from my mouth.
Donn Buchfinck
San Francisco
Farren on wed 9 jun 99
If pottery -- all types -- is meant to elicit a response from its viewers then
Silverman's work has done that. Like any art (or craft for that matter) it does
not have to appeal to everyone or even a majority of viewers. I for one, liked
aspects of the work which appeared in CM. It is not the direction my work is
taking but it is thoughtful work. The only reason I am responding to this
particular thread is that I wanted Donn to know that there are those of us who
may not always respond to a posting but that doesn't consititute agreement with
his positions or his way of stating that position. I also agree that this subjec
is exhausted and I'm sorry to have worn it out even more.
Patricia Farren
Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >I hit it right on the button didn't I
> >
> >I don't even to pretend to know you
> >but you dared me to enlighten you
> >which means to me that we will not see eye to eye on the points I am trying
> >to make.
> >we probably would have a hard time agreeing on what enlightnment is.
> >
> >and for as many people who dislike what I am saying, there is an equal group
> >out there who have agreed with me. go figure.
> >
> >
> >Donn Buchfinck
> >San Francisco
>
> The only thing that you were right on the button is that when you put
> things out to the group you also need to remember that your ideas and
> thoughts are out there for criticism, agreement, and dialog by many others.
> All which occurred. You need to be able to take any criticism or
> disagreement at the same time and not resort to puerile responses that
> don't support your positiion or erode it at the same time.
>
> I'm sure glad you have the last word on enlightenment and what it is. I
> would not be so arrogant as to make that assertion.
>
> You missed the point, Donn, on a few things.
>
> First, is that if you READ my post, I didn't disagree or dislike what you
> said. All I asked for was clarification. If saying that something is vague,
> or asking for clarification, or asking what is the point , is then taken by
> you as criticism, then you have toally misinterpreted my comments to you.
> If you can't support what you put out there and can't take the heat, don't
> put it out there. And you need to read more carefully.
>
> Second, I didn't dare you to do a damn thing.
>
> I'll read what ever comes across the list and judicioulsy use my delete key
> for editing o as to where to But you set yourself up for a response, not
> only from me but from many others. And I'll also not be the first to
> choose to engage in criticisms when they are called for. Your post called
> for exactly that.
>
> I really don't care to see what you call "eye to eye" with you. I'll
> listen and critique with an open mind, I'll put my thinking out there for
> both you and all 2000 plus subscribers on the list. I have, and probably
> will continue, to take some heat as well.
>
> All I ask, and it seems that what the jist of many others were asking is
> that you do the same.
>
> I think this subject has been exhausted.
>
> Resepctfully,
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Kaplan, president
> Ceramic Design Group LTD/Production Services
> PO Box 775112
> Steamboat Springs CO 80477
>
> plant location
>
> 1280 13th Street Unit 13
> Steamboat Springs CO 80487
>
> (970) 879-9139 voice and fax
>
> jonathan@csn.net
> http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
Hluch - Kevin A. on fri 11 jun 99
If the function of art is simply to elicit a "response" then I have had an
aesthetic experience by inadvertently stepping on a pile of dog doo.
Come to think of it, in regard to some expressions I have seen, you may be
right.
Kevin A. Hluch
102 E. 8th St
Frederick, MD 21701
USA
e-mail: kahluch@umd5.umd.edu
http://www.erols.com/mhluch/mudslinger.html
On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Farren wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> If pottery -- all types -- is meant to elicit a response from its viewers then
> Silverman's work has done that. Like any art (or craft for that matter) it doe
> not have to appeal to everyone or even a majority of viewers. I for one, liked
> aspects of the work which appeared in CM. It is not the direction my work is
> taking but it is thoughtful work. The only reason I am responding to this
> particular thread is that I wanted Donn to know that there are those of us who
> may not always respond to a posting but that doesn't consititute agreement wit
> his positions or his way of stating that position. I also agree that this subj
> is exhausted and I'm sorry to have worn it out even more.
>
> Patricia Farren
>
>
> Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > >I hit it right on the button didn't I
> > >
> > >I don't even to pretend to know you
> > >but you dared me to enlighten you
> > >which means to me that we will not see eye to eye on the points I am trying
> > >to make.
> > >we probably would have a hard time agreeing on what enlightnment is.
> > >
> > >and for as many people who dislike what I am saying, there is an equal grou
> > >out there who have agreed with me. go figure.
> > >
> > >
> > >Donn Buchfinck
> > >San Francisco
> >
> > The only thing that you were right on the button is that when you put
> > things out to the group you also need to remember that your ideas and
> > thoughts are out there for criticism, agreement, and dialog by many others.
> > All which occurred. You need to be able to take any criticism or
> > disagreement at the same time and not resort to puerile responses that
> > don't support your positiion or erode it at the same time.
> >
> > I'm sure glad you have the last word on enlightenment and what it is. I
> > would not be so arrogant as to make that assertion.
> >
> > You missed the point, Donn, on a few things.
> >
> > First, is that if you READ my post, I didn't disagree or dislike what you
> > said. All I asked for was clarification. If saying that something is vague,
> > or asking for clarification, or asking what is the point , is then taken by
> > you as criticism, then you have toally misinterpreted my comments to you.
> > If you can't support what you put out there and can't take the heat, don't
> > put it out there. And you need to read more carefully.
> >
> > Second, I didn't dare you to do a damn thing.
> >
> > I'll read what ever comes across the list and judicioulsy use my delete key
> > for editing o as to where to But you set yourself up for a response, not
> > only from me but from many others. And I'll also not be the first to
> > choose to engage in criticisms when they are called for. Your post called
> > for exactly that.
> >
> > I really don't care to see what you call "eye to eye" with you. I'll
> > listen and critique with an open mind, I'll put my thinking out there for
> > both you and all 2000 plus subscribers on the list. I have, and probably
> > will continue, to take some heat as well.
> >
> > All I ask, and it seems that what the jist of many others were asking is
> > that you do the same.
> >
> > I think this subject has been exhausted.
> >
> > Resepctfully,
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Jonathan Kaplan, president
> > Ceramic Design Group LTD/Production Services
> > PO Box 775112
> > Steamboat Springs CO 80477
> >
> > plant location
> >
> > 1280 13th Street Unit 13
> > Steamboat Springs CO 80487
> >
> > (970) 879-9139 voice and fax
> >
> > jonathan@csn.net
> > http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign/
>
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