Lois Ruben Aronow on mon 7 jun 99
------------------
On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:29:36 EDT, Donn Buchfinck wrote:
=3EWhat really bothered me is the new work of bobby silverman.
=3EI know this person, and I look at the work in the article and I am dazed=
and
=3Econfused.
=3Eto begin with the forms are the ones we learned how to make as undergrads=
at
=3Ethe Kansas City art Institute under Victor Babu. the photos look like an
undergraduate critique.
So does this mean you liked the work or not? I don't really
understand your statement or post, really. If you don't like the guy,
fine. So he learned these forms years ago. Fine. BUT -- are they
beautiful? Do you feel he's done something different, creative or
inspiring (or not)? Do you have a beef about this guy from your
college days? Have you seen the work in person? Did you just not
like the photos?
I feel this is very unfair. Having seen Silverman's work this past
winter at Greenwich House, I came away feeling the pieces were very
exciting. The glazing was awesome. I wanted to touch and feel
(which, to me, is a sign of great work). My first reaction was =22wow=22.
for anyone who hasn't been up close and personal with Silverman's
work, it's pretty darn large.
Conversely, he was surrounded by sycophants and seemed quite
self-important and pleased with himself. But stepping away from the
cult of personality, I still thought the work was wonderful. I
remembered it and told people about it.
Are humility and sensitivity traits that are important in being a
talented potter? I doubt it. Most of the people who see the work -
of any potter - don't know the artist personally, and judge the work
only by it's own merits. It's OK not to find beauty in someone's
work, but it's not OK to disqualify it because you don't like the
artist.
Is Silverman any more talented that anyone else? Who knows. Frankly,
I'm pleased to see CM feature someone who's not, for a change, ripping
off McKenzie, Leach, Simon or Suze Lindsay. (Go to the UK and it's a
virtual homage to de Waal these days).
If you're really game for getting your kickers in a twist, catch this
month's Craft magazine. Big Silverman feature there too. The guy
probably has a publicist now. SO WHAT.
Donn Buchfinck on tue 8 jun 99
I met Bobby at the archie bray foundation 10 years ago this summer. He was
working on pots for a show. And I liked that work more. I actually have
one of the large pots he was making that summer.
Also I feel that if pottery has a great glaze and it is large, that does not
constitute that the work is good.
What I am talking about here is content. What is the work trying to say.
Bobby wants the work to say something, but I feel that it is falling short.
The forms are great but to me they seem impersonal. Not speaking about
something intrinsic of bobby. When You stack a series of bowls up and put
them in a gallery setting and talk of them as they are speaking about
pottery, or pots about pots, this negates the function of utility and moves
it into the realm of sculpture. And as sculpture it is falling short. This
is what I am trying to say.
There are two types of art, Great and all the others. Craft is different.
I can live with an OK pot. I can deal with pottery that is not quite right.
The pots are what they are, but if I make something to go on the white
pedestal then it either works or it doesn't, and all the talk about the
emperors clothes will still leave it naked.
The problem here is that if the work is about content then why would an
artist have to make the bowls. Why not travel to a restaurant supply store
and purchase the pots and stack them up. We are going to go into the realm
of Jeff Coons here. What is this really, the beginning of installation
pottery.
And I did see this months Craft magazine, and It reinforces my feelings
about what happens in the art world.
Read the two articles, Both are targeted at the magazines they are in. For
the life of me I cannot understand the American craft article.
But this is important, what do the two articles say, the ceramics monthly
article is targeted to potters, it has plenty of technical stuff for us
pottery people, and the American craft has that convoluted art history speak
for those sophisticated arty people.
What is the matter here, they didn't think the ceramics monthly crowd would
get the American craft version. The message is targeted to elicit a
response, to create that "the next big thing" feeling.
To be really honest I am not tied into the craft fair/wholesale scene. I do
not like a lot of what I see. There is a big difference between making
something that sells and making something good.
And I think that humility and sensitivity are important in being a great
potter. Name pots that you like and I bet they have been made by people who
are sensitive and have humility.
I have to go trim bowls now, so send on those comments and I will to do my
best to try to remove my foot from my mouth.
Donn Buchfinck
San Francisco
Lee Love on tue 8 jun 99
------------------
From: Lois Ruben Aronow =3Cgilois=40earthlink.net=3E
=3C...=3E
=3EAre humility and sensitivity traits that are important in
=3Ebeing a talented potter?
=3C...=3E
It depends upon what you do pottery. To me humility and
sensitivity are important. Any endeavor that makes a crappy person is
not an endeavor worth doing.
The estrangement of a creative person from their work is not a
healthy thing. It all goes together in one package. I am always amazed
that the work I like best is usually done by equally impressive people.
Not all ways of working lead to this, of course. But moral and ethical
work does.
/(o=5C=A7 Lee In Saint Paul, Minnesota USA =B0
=5Co)/=A7 mailto:Ikiru=40Kami.com
=A7 http://hachiko.com
=22The significant problems we face...cannot be solved by the
same level of thinking that created them.=22 =7E Einstein
Chris Campbell on wed 9 jun 99
Donn said -
"There is a big difference between making
something that sells and making something good.
And I think that humility and sensitivity are important
in being a great potter.Name pots that you like and
I bet they have been made by people who are sensitive
and have humility."
I am sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
The general public is not a stupid herd of swine. Things sell because they
are well designed, well priced and fill a need.
Did you buy terrible equipment for your studio or did you buy the best you
could afford? How about your home? Is it full of badly designed, poorly made
stuff or did you try to find suitable well made furnishings? Is everything
hand made or did you buy some manufactured products? Well, thank goodness
someone was manufacturing well-made stuff you could afford.
Since when does talent need humility???? NEVER.
Sensitive? - - - gosh you haven't met some of the talented people I have
because a lot of them are tempermental or socially impaired.... their work is
what speaks and can move you to tears.
The fiction of the poor but humble craftsperson toiling away in goodness and
truth is just that - fiction. Their work is no better or worse than anyone
else just because it's not popular or commercial. The fact that no one buys
it does not automatically mean that it is good.
Look at the Post It Note - hardly a work of art but it is perfectly designed,
reasonably priced, readily availble and sells like crazy. You could put
homemade glue on hand made paper but it would not necessarily be a better
product.
Chris - in Carolina - still struggling with that glaze - aarrgghh - I hate
testing and the chemistry gods aren't too thrilled with me either.
elizabeth priddy on wed 9 jun 99
On Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:34:49
Donn Buchfinck wrote:
>----------------------------Original
\There is a big difference between making
>something that sells and making something good.
Sometimes the "goodness" of the product is the salability. For many potters, th
the work that you care about without going bankrupt.
I, for instance, sell sets of dishes for individuals
and show my work in three galleries. This is bread
and butter money. Therefore, the work is competent,
but not an ethereal confection of brilliance. Not
every thing that my precious hands touch is going to
be brilliant.
That being the case, I know that the physical TIME that I spend working in my st
and butter is like a zen workout. After I
have applied this discipline to my "making" for about
6 hours on a day, I give myself the rest of the day to
"express" myself. I have found that the radical
discipline that I enforce over my own work-work has
made the creation of my art-work better/easier.
A greater facility with the clay, a better understanding of my firing, a better
And I don't want to sell my art-work, necessarily. I
actually have an aversion to it. I feel deeply about
the expressive stuff and don't care what any body else
thinks about it on a fundamental level. This is why I can "take" a critique, I
that that is how I define work-work. If I CARE whether someone says, "But that
sofa...", then I don't need to share this with anyone.
And other criticism that speaks to real issues about
the work, are like fresh breeze to my soul, cleansing
and refreshing, leaving me able to express myself
better.
And this feeling was nurtured and hardened-off
by listening to customers say that my handles are too
small. If they are, I make them bigger. But If I look at their hands and see
Well, my handles are fine for a normal-handed person. You have to be able to re
This being the case, my best work belongs to me and I
feel no need to find external validation by displaying
or selling my art-work.
When I have chosen to offer it at the gallery, it
sells. And then people ask for more, but a Muse is
not the same as a Zen Master and I cannot simply whip
a few out. And then they are disappointed and I feel like I have failed for not
Beauty is so important to me, that the Bread and
Butter has to BE something else. And those who
collect my work, know that this is how it is, and they wait until they get a cal
This way, I control my life, not the marketplace.
You can have both, but you have to re-affirm your
determination to maintain your integrity every
morning, sometimes every hour of every day.
As it is said,
"The price of integrity is eternal vigilence,
the reward of eternal vigilence is integrity."
>And I think that humility and sensitivity are >important in being a great potte
A humble and sensitive person does not by definition
need or want to aspire to "greatness".
Sometimes just living a good life is enough. And being a good individual is ess
potter, because it shows or does not in the work.
I really mean my tag...
---
Elizabeth Priddy
I speak from sincerity and experience, not authority...
email: epriddy@usa.net
www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on thu 10 jun 99
Yay, Chris. I totally agree. Last night I saw a new batch of mugs made
"off-shore" that had the same shape as the ones I make and were the same good
size. They cost $1.99. I laughed....the glaze wasn't as nice as mine(they were
just one color, and they didn't have my signature on the bottom) but
design-wise, hey---they were just as good as mine. I thought how the hell am I
supposed to explain to a prospective customer that my mugs are worth the $20 I
charge for them. I even hate making them.
That's the issue with the hand-made post-it's. Do I need hand-made paper for
what I use post-it's for......no. Do plain post-its fill a need perfectly
well....yes. Can I improve on them....not really. The question is...what
added value are you giving your customer when they can go out and get a similar
product that fills their needs perfectly well and costs 1/5 of what you charge?
Like I said previously, Target has some beautifully designed dinnerware. And
they are all glazed with lovely opaque matt glazes. And the pieces are cheap.
And, now they even have Michael Graves designing appliances and garden furniture
for them. Nicely designed and reasonably priced.
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Campbell [SMTP:CCPottery@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 3:49 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: this month's CM the emperors new clothes (silverman)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Donn said -
"There is a big difference between making
something that sells and making something good.
And I think that humility and sensitivity are important
in being a great potter.Name pots that you like and
I bet they have been made by people who are sensitive
and have humility."
I am sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
The general public is not a stupid herd of swine. Things sell because they
are well designed, well priced and fill a need.
Did you buy terrible equipment for your studio or did you buy the best you
could afford? How about your home? Is it full of badly designed, poorly made
stuff or did you try to find suitable well made furnishings? Is everything
hand made or did you buy some manufactured products? Well, thank goodness
someone was manufacturing well-made stuff you could afford.
Since when does talent need humility???? NEVER.
Sensitive? - - - gosh you haven't met some of the talented people I have
because a lot of them are tempermental or socially impaired.... their work is
what speaks and can move you to tears.
The fiction of the poor but humble craftsperson toiling away in goodness and
truth is just that - fiction. Their work is no better or worse than anyone
else just because it's not popular or commercial. The fact that no one buys
it does not automatically mean that it is good.
Look at the Post It Note - hardly a work of art but it is perfectly designed,
reasonably priced, readily availble and sells like crazy. You could put
homemade glue on hand made paper but it would not necessarily be a better
product.
Chris - in Carolina - still struggling with that glaze - aarrgghh - I hate
testing and the chemistry gods aren't too thrilled with me either.
Donn Buchfinck on thu 10 jun 99
YOU WROTE::::""Chris - in Carolina -
I am sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
The general public is not a stupid herd of swine. Things sell because they
are well designed, well priced and fill a need.
Did you buy terrible equipment for your studio or did you buy the best you
could afford? How about your home? Is it full of badly designed, poorly made
stuff or did you try to find suitable well made furnishings? Is everything
hand made or did you buy some manufactured products? Well, thank goodness
someone was manufacturing well-made stuff you could afford.
Since when does talent need humility???? NEVER.
Sensitive? - - - gosh you haven't met some of the talented people I have
because a lot of them are temper mental or socially impaired.... Their work is
what speaks and can move you to tears.
The fiction of the poor but humble crafts person toiling away in goodness and
truth is just that - fiction. Their work is no better or worse than anyone
else just because it's not popular or commercial. The fact that no one buys
it does not automatically mean that it is good.
Look at the Post It Note - hardly a work of art but it is perfectly designed,
reasonably priced, readily availble and sells like crazy. You could put
homemade glue on hand made paper but it would not necessarily be a better
product.
Chris - in Carolina - still struggling with that glaze - aarrgghh - I hate
Testing and the chemistry gods aren't too thrilled with me either.""
What world do you live in, not the same one I live in, and you must get
into those good craft fairs, not the ones I've been to in the real world.
You know the ones where I have to look at the rows of glass artists making
stuff that all looks alike and sells and they make a lot of money. The
people who churn out the stuff to sell with no thought about the details that
could make it a better pot, just because it would take a little longer. The
stuff that is beginning to make it's way into the market place that is mass
produced bisqware and then decorated, with a hand made stamp on it. And
badly decorated at that. lotion dispenser bottles and row upon row of rutile
blue glazed pots.
hey I like rutile blue, but not a whole booth of it.
slock sells in our society
this is why when you give the people the chance to have good schools or a cut
in their property taxes they will sacrifice up the schools to their short
sidedness.
the people in out society are a herd of something, the yuppie attitude of
the 80's has mutated into something even worse in the next generation, the
we can save the world attitude has turned to we are going to conquer the
world attitude. Skip the world can be saved phase, just go right into the
pillage phase.
The only good thing about this is that the people who have money have sold
out, or sold upward, or bought in, what ever you want to call it, and they
are tired of the plastic mass produced item and are looking for something
handmade and warm.
there is hope for us potters, we can give them this. And gouge them also.
also the post it note was made as an in house product at 3-m corp
the person who made it ran into problems with his superiors because they
wondered about an adhesive that didn't hold that well. And he made some up
for himself and his friends and the momentum caught on from there.
and as to bad stuff, just walk into a home depot and you will be amazed at
the stuff they sell. The company did 30 billion in business last year, and
they do it selling not that great of stuff, and piss poor service.
here is the trick about the public in the USA.
they want to think they are getting a deal, a discount, something for free
for a person to be a winner someone has to be a loser
and a majority will take the better price over the better product any day.
it's the people who want quality over the deal are the ones I want to deal
with.
Got a go work on those pots for those shows
Donn Buchfinck
San Francisco
Ray Aldridge on thu 10 jun 99
At 03:49 PM 6/9/99 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Donn said -
>
>"There is a big difference between making
>something that sells and making something good.
>And I think that humility and sensitivity are important
>in being a great potter.Name pots that you like and
>I bet they have been made by people who are sensitive
>and have humility."
>
>
>I am sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
>
>The general public is not a stupid herd of swine.
Careful! You're speaking against a cherished article of faith among
artists. The reasoning goes something like this: "No one will pay me a
thousand dollars for my bowl; therefore the general public is a stupid herd
of swine." Or: "If the general public were not a stupid herd of swine, I
would be a God among potters."
> Since when does talent need humility???? NEVER.
>
Of course it doesn't *need* humility, but that doesn't mean humility is not
useful. Here's an odd thing: the very best artists are more likely to be
humble than the Young Turks, whose ferocity often covers a basic feeling of
insecurity. In the science fiction field this is abundantly clear. The
Elder Gods of the craft are almost all helpful, polite, and warm. They
know how good they are; they're comfortable with their divinity. It's the
up-and-comers who are more likely to be unpleasant.
Ray
J.H. Gorman on fri 11 jun 99
That kind of thinking (good enough for government work) is how
Walmart and fast-food has taken over !!! Lets all run out to kmart
and buy the Martha Steward collection!! A $1.99 mug has been made packed,
shipped, unloaded and loaded and unloaded and unpacked and put on a self
for you to buy and we still have to check out. Now how much is that $1.99!!
I call it creating a cash flow not just for Walmart and such but for countries
that copy rights mean nothing and their labor force makes $1.99 a week!!!
Say good-bye to mom and pop stores!
jim gorman
Yay, Chris. I totally agree. Last night I saw a new batch of mugs made
"off-shore" that had the same shape as the ones I make and were the same good
size. They cost $1.99. I laughed....the glaze wasn't as nice as mine(they
were
just one color, and they didn't have my signature on the bottom) but
design-wise, hey---they were just as good as mine. I thought how the hell am
I
supposed to explain to a prospective customer that my mugs are worth the $20 I
charge for them. I even hate making them.
That's the issue with the hand-made post-it's. Do I need hand-made paper for
what I use post-it's for......no. Do plain post-its fill a need perfectly
well....yes. Can I improve on them....not really. The question is...what
added value are you giving your customer when they can go out and get a
similar
product that fills their needs perfectly well and costs 1/5 of what you
charge?
Like I said previously, Target has some beautifully designed dinnerware. And
they are all glazed with lovely opaque matt glazes. And the pieces are cheap.
And, now they even have Michael Graves designing appliances and garden
furniture
for them. Nicely designed and reasonably priced.
Sandy
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on mon 14 jun 99
Okay, Jim. Are you going to argue with reality? The $1.99 mug is a reality.
The Michael Graves designs for Target are reality. I also recognize good design
when I see it. Am I supposed to say that just because the name Martha Stewart
appears on some object, that it isn't interesting? Or that a mug that is a good
design (i.e. just like mine) isn't a good design because it's at WalMart or Bed,
Bath and Beyond? I, too, bemoan the loss of Mom and Pop stores. I shop
locally when I can. But, that doesn't mean that I will accept bad design
because it's made by some "humble craftsperson" who has read "The Unknown
Craftsman". That is ridiculous. Art and politics are not inextricably
combined in my mind, and my aesthetics do not depend on my politics. I can
still like good design, even if it isn't politically correct to do so. I can
site numerous examples here but do I need to?
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: J.H. Gorman [SMTP:GORMO1@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 7:01 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: this month's CM the emperors new clothes (silverman)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
That kind of thinking (good enough for government work) is how
Walmart and fast-food has taken over !!! Lets all run out to kmart
and buy the Martha Steward collection!! A $1.99 mug has been made packed,
shipped, unloaded and loaded and unloaded and unpacked and put on a self
for you to buy and we still have to check out. Now how much is that $1.99!!
I call it creating a cash flow not just for Walmart and such but for countries
that copy rights mean nothing and their labor force makes $1.99 a week!!!
Say good-bye to mom and pop stores!
jim gorman
Yay, Chris. I totally agree. Last night I saw a new batch of mugs made
"off-shore" that had the same shape as the ones I make and were the same good
size. They cost $1.99. I laughed....the glaze wasn't as nice as mine(they
were
just one color, and they didn't have my signature on the bottom) but
design-wise, hey---they were just as good as mine. I thought how the hell am
I
supposed to explain to a prospective customer that my mugs are worth the $20 I
charge for them. I even hate making them.
That's the issue with the hand-made post-it's. Do I need hand-made paper for
what I use post-it's for......no. Do plain post-its fill a need perfectly
well....yes. Can I improve on them....not really. The question is...what
added value are you giving your customer when they can go out and get a
similar
product that fills their needs perfectly well and costs 1/5 of what you
charge?
Like I said previously, Target has some beautifully designed dinnerware. And
they are all glazed with lovely opaque matt glazes. And the pieces are cheap.
And, now they even have Michael Graves designing appliances and garden
furniture
for them. Nicely designed and reasonably priced.
Sandy
Gayle Bair on wed 16 jun 99
Dear Sandy & Clayart folk,
I must agree with you. I was in Target yesterday and had my hands on
one of their mass produced mugs. It felt good in my hand though
a bit heavy, had a nice glaze and was $1.99.
So where is the line here? I think it is in what I have experienced
when I sell a favorite piece. In the past few weeks I sold teapots
to people who just loved the pieces. One person doesn't even drink tea.
They caressed the pots, talked about where they would be displayed and how
much they were going to enjoy owning the pots. I told them how much I liked
the pots and that I was glad they were going to good homes. That is what
does it for me.
Last Christmas someone bought a menorah I made and she wasn't Jewish..
she just loved the piece!
Now the problem lowering my prices to compete with what the
crowd would bear probably got me close to minimum wage.
Fortunately I do not depend on pottery sales for survival.
So foe me what it comes down to is....
Would I cherish, admire and think about the person who made
that lovely $1.99 mass produced mug from Target??? I think not!
Those people who bought my pieces will and that's what does it for me.
Once I am more established I will increase my prices or increase
my speed of production and become more profitable. Right now I am very happy
seeing the pleasure my customers get from my work.
Perhaps this is way off the original thread which I have followed loosely so I w
just state that I really like Silverman's work. That's all that matters to me an
I could give a hoot about anyone else's negative response to the work.
So I guess I operate on a very personal level, hey, it keeps my wheel spinning!
Gayle Bair
gaylebair@earthlink.net
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Okay, Jim. Are you going to argue with reality? The $1.99 mug is a reality.
The Michael Graves designs for Target are reality. I also recognize good design
when I see it. Am I supposed to say that just because the name Martha Stewart
appears on some object, that it isn't interesting? Or that a mug that is a good
design (i.e. just like mine) isn't a good design because it's at WalMart or Bed,
Bath and Beyond? I, too, bemoan the loss of Mom and Pop stores. I shop
locally when I can. But, that doesn't mean that I will accept bad design
because it's made by some "humble craftsperson" who has read "The Unknown
Craftsman". That is ridiculous. Art and politics are not inextricably
combined in my mind, and my aesthetics do not depend on my politics. I can
still like good design, even if it isn't politically correct to do so. I can
site numerous examples here but do I need to?
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: J.H. Gorman [SMTP:GORMO1@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 7:01 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: this month's CM the emperors new clothes (silverman)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
That kind of thinking (good enough for government work) is how
Walmart and fast-food has taken over !!! Lets all run out to kmart
and buy the Martha Steward collection!! A $1.99 mug has been made packed,
shipped, unloaded and loaded and unloaded and unpacked and put on a self
for you to buy and we still have to check out. Now how much is that $1.99!!
I call it creating a cash flow not just for Walmart and such but for countries
that copy rights mean nothing and their labor force makes $1.99 a week!!!
Say good-bye to mom and pop stores!
jim gorman
Yay, Chris. I totally agree. Last night I saw a new batch of mugs made
"off-shore" that had the same shape as the ones I make and were the same good
size. They cost $1.99. I laughed....the glaze wasn't as nice as mine(they
were
just one color, and they didn't have my signature on the bottom) but
design-wise, hey---they were just as good as mine. I thought how the hell am
I
supposed to explain to a prospective customer that my mugs are worth the $20 I
charge for them. I even hate making them.
That's the issue with the hand-made post-it's. Do I need hand-made paper for
what I use post-it's for......no. Do plain post-its fill a need perfectly
well....yes. Can I improve on them....not really. The question is...what
added value are you giving your customer when they can go out and get a
similar
product that fills their needs perfectly well and costs 1/5 of what you
charge?
Like I said previously, Target has some beautifully designed dinnerware. And
they are all glazed with lovely opaque matt glazes. And the pieces are cheap.
And, now they even have Michael Graves designing appliances and garden
furniture
for them. Nicely designed and reasonably priced.
Sandy
| |
|
