John Baymore on sun 13 jun 99
------------------
(snip)
I have been reading the posts recently regarding the merits of Japanese
aethetics. I think there are many many beautiful Japanese pots and at times
I find their viewpoints to be very intriguing. But, that said, I do not
think there should be a slavish attitude that everything Japanese is to be
revered. Some of what I see is also very ugly.
(clip)
Yup....... no question about the =22ugly-ies=22. They make um' and we make =
um'
and everybody makes um' (g). I saw some of the worst ceramic schlock when
I was there. Make you want to gag. It sat right next to exquisite,
wonderful pieces. A definite dichotomy.
I don't think anyone has said that the Japanese can =22do no wrong in =
art=22.
What has been said is that they have a broader appreciation for the arts
in their culture and more awareness and contact with pots/vessels. That
makes the potter's life/job easier and more rewarding.
I truly think that if you took a random sample of 100 Japanese and 100
Americans that you'd find a more developed awareness of and appreciation
for all the arts in the Japanese sample. That was my experience traveling
around Japan, and it is the experience that others I have talked to have
had. Are there =22Joe Sixpack-s=22 in Japan? You betcha'. Plenty of them.
Are there =22Art Esthete-s=22 in America? Of course. But overall I think =
the
balance in numbers is different because of the cultural upbringing and the
core value systems.
I think the Japanese are also closer to the spiritual aspects of life than
Americans are. Shinto and Buddhism seem to be closer to the surface in
mainstream culture there, than say, ......... Christianity and Judiasm are
here. Some of the religious beliefs and background have tangentially
driven some of the aesthetic precepts...and have given them a viewpoint of
space, line, form, surface, and decoration that is a little different from
that that is the cultural norm for the Westerner.
The spiritual and aesthetic part of life there is at a little higher plane
then is typical in America. That makes the populace a little more attuned
to the experiences of life and the patterns to be enjoyed in day-to-day
living .....other than the pursuit of money and fun.
This is not =22racial=22 by any means. The Japanese as a race are not =
somehow
superior. It is cultural, and comes from a culture that has a LONG history
behind it.. We are a young country. We have a lot to learn. I wonder
WHAT it is that we are learning? Americans have gone off chasing values
that I think are detrimental in the long run. These values place the
experience of day to day life, the life of the intellect, and the value of
the aesthetic, at or near the bottom of a heirarchy that places money and
indescriminate consumerism pretty much at the top.
The scary part is that American culture and values seem to be dominating
the world right now. Hopefully this is a self-correcting phase in the
cycle of life .... and the pendulum will eventually swing back a bit in the
other direction. Balance is the goal..... Yin/Yang .........
technological/aesthetic.......... money/spirituality ............
consumerism/environmental activism...............
power/selflessness.............. all those things. I think American
culture is out of balance right now....... and the world is following us
over the edge. Hopefully we all will wake up to the other important values
in life before we go too far over to easily come back.
(snip)
The same thing could be said of Japanese culture. I am not an expert but
something I saw in the paper last week gives me cause for reflection. Japan
has finally approved use of birth control pills=21=21=21 Gee, haven't they =
been
around for thirty years? In my opinion, any culture that treats women like
that should be regarded very warily.
(clip)
Sexism is rampant in Japanese culture..... although I understand that it is
getting better. (Hence the change of official position on birth control
pills=21) That was one of the hardest things I had to deal with when I was
there (no......sexism......not the availability of birth control pils =
=3Cg=3E),
even though it was actually a little better than I had expected before I
went. The repression of birth control availability to women is certainly
one symptom of this. It was difficult to see women fall into subservient
roles whenever males were present. The more =22public=22 the situation, the
more this gender bias was evident.
No one ever said the Japanese were perfect. No one is. Yes..... most of
us from the western world on the list probably find this a less than
desireable situation, and seemingly one from the distant past. But is it
really so far in OUR past either?
Let us not forget that sexism and racism is also still rampant in America.
So lets's also be a little wary of our own culture's =22darkside=22 =3Cg=3E.=
It is
a little more =22covert=22 and below the surface.....not politically
correct.......... but it is still here. Look at =22equal wage=22 statistics
for a simple and blatant example. This is true in many if not most places
in the world.
We should be wary of that aspect of life ANY place that it is found.
Every culture will have it's strength's and weaknesses if you look for
them. Does American racism completely negate our technological
capabilities? Does Japanese sexism negate it's aesthetic awareness?
No.....I don=3Bt think so. Look for what is good and learn from that. Then
look at what is bad and learn from that too.
(snip)
From my experience, I realized that the history of
ceramics is deeply rooted in Japan and many Americans
cannot relate to the history or the aesthetics behind
the history. =22clumsy pots=22 may be an aesthetic with a
meaning for Japanese which we don't really get, not
being from that culture. And the importance of the
history, whether Zen tea ceremony is practised or not,
still remains though the use of Ceramics everyday in
Japanese life. It is not learned through 'pitchmen'
but through use in every home in Japan.
And the packaging of certain pots held in esteem for
the aesthetic beauty and historical richness we may
not understand, is part of the culture of Japan to
emphasize the importance of things in life. Packaging
is not meant to increase the prices. Take a look at
the book =22How to Wrap Five Eggs=22. It shows the
intrecasies of packaging in Japan. This doesn't hold
true only for cermaics. If you were to purchase a
sweet at a candy store or bakery, it would be
beautifully packaged, too.
Japanese live artful lives every day. THis is what
America needs to learn. Japanese people choose the
specific dish for the right food, package novelties in
special wraps, wear handcrafted clothing - kimono's
(though I only saw the elders in kimono on an everyday
basis), etc. They pay attention to detail,
aesthetics and history, and use folk crafts daily.
And as a people this is what they learn in their
culture from birth, not something they learn through a
pitch on television.
As for the typical Japanese 'personally-felt beauty,'
people's understanding of beauty comes from our
culture. Ceramics play a grand part of every Japanese
life and so every Japanese has a direct connection and
knowledge of the craft. And with the incredible
accessabilty to ceramic art (on every corner)and the
need for specific dishes for specific foods for a
specific individual in the family, every person in
Japan builds their own personal aesthetic
(though of course like I noted, their aesthetic is
influenced by their culture and that culture is the
history and aesthetics of tea ceremony pots).
Japanese aesthetics is something we as Americans can
study, and perhaps understand individually. However,
we did not grow up in their culture and so their
aesthetics don't come naturally to us. It is not that
AMericans should study Japanese aesthetics to have
them. But we should study the importance that the
Japanese put on objects used everyday. From wrapping
a cookie with love to show the specialness of that
cookie to choosing a specific ceramic dish for a
specific food. This part of their culture is
something I believe we all should learn. And if
Americans had this quality, we potter's would be
respected more like Japanese potters. And sales would
climb sky high=21=21=21
(snip)
WOW=21 Elise has said a real mouthfull about the experience in Japan in her
comments. Nice post=21=21=21=21 Pretty accurate to my experiences while =
there
too. There was a piece in CM a while back that reflected the same thoughts
by a participant in the ICWAT program. Check that out too, if this subject
interests you.
I had studied Japanese art and culture from the time I was introduced to
pottery way back in the late 60's, and THOUGHT I knew at least a little bit
about it. It wasn't until I had the opportunity to go to Japan that I
really UNDERSTOOD much anything about it's pottery or it's cultural values.
I still understand very little...... but a little lightbulb or two went
off. It is almost three years since I was there and I am still digesting
all I saw, heard, felt, tasted, did, was told, and thought that I learned.
I have a good friend and fellow potter who studied in Japan in the mid-60's
for an extended period. We worked together at the same school for many
years...and his =22Japan experiences=22 rubbed off on me by osmosis. We see
each other infrequently since he still teaches in MA and I am now in NH.
He had heard about my trip to Japan before I left. We met after I returned
at a Shimaoka-sensei lecture here in the states. His first words to me
were, =22NOW you understand.=22...said with a big smile. I just grinned =
and
said =22Hai.=22
But it is really more that that I had just BEGUN to understand. If I spent
a lifetime there....then I would probably understand.
There is one thing I would like to comment on in Elise's post a tad.
Packaging and presentation is an important part of Japanese culture.
Boy....is it ever. The =22gifting tradition=22 has sustained this important
aspect of traditional culture....and it has gotten a bit warped at the
fringes in the chasing after western consumerism (beautifully wrapped
packages of laundry detergent intended as gifts=21=21=21=21) This packaging=
focus
is rooted in the deep appreciation of ritual, specialness, and aesthetic
appreciation of objects....particularly day-to-day ones. A boxed pot is
more =22special=22 than a non-boxed pot. In a sense it is like Americans
taking a vessel and placing it on a pedestal with a spotlight in a gallery
.............. it =22elevates=22 the piece in precieved value. It also just
simply looks good =3Cg=3E.
There is also a very practical side to the packaging of such pots.
Japanese homes often do not have the =22clutter=22 Western homes have. =
Objects
are either =22out=22 and in use, or are put away in out-of-sight storage.
Having a box to safely protect the pot makes storage a much simpler matter.
Simple, direct, and straightforward.
However, the packaging for pots (the nice little wooden boxes) with the
pedigree of the piece and the artist's signature often IS very much revenue
driven. In Japan, a potter is not afraid of placing a HIGH value on his
work, time, and signature. Very high. The people who WANT and ask for the
documentation of those signed boxes are often dealing with the monetary
value of the pieces as much as the piece itself. Many potters often have
an extra price for the signed box with a piece. If you want the signature
and pedigree.....you pay more than someone who just wants the pot for the
pot's sake.
This valuation of the artist's signature and skills and the willingness and
CONFIDENCE to charge for it is something that is another cultural
difference related to the valuation of the arts and artists in Japan. In
America we tend to undervalue pots and the work that goes into them, and
this too is culturally driven.
So........more stuff on this subject .............. =3Cg=3E.
Best,
.....................john
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.COM
=22Earth, Water, and Fire climbing kiln firing workshop Aug. 20-29,1999=22
Hluch - Kevin A. on mon 14 jun 99
John,
Enjoyed your discussion but would like to point out there is no Japanese
"race". Nor is there an African "race", or India or Caucasian or Hispanic
or any other "race" in the human species. Homo Sapiens is one race and
that is all. Scientifically and technical, there are no distinct races of
the human species.
Tribalism is the primary conflict generator for the human species....Note
Northern Ireland, Ruwanda, Indonesia, Chechnya, Yugoslavia, Turkey,
Israel, Sudan, and any where else you have communities of people bigger
than the family level.
Differing cultural attributes define humans more than genes....Therein
lies the glory and the gore.....
Kevin A. Hluch
102 E. 8th St
Frederick, MD 21701
USA
e-mail: kahluch@umd5.umd.edu
http://www.erols.com/mhluch/mudslinger.html
On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, John Baymore wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> ------------------
> (snip)
> I have been reading the posts recently regarding the merits of Japanese
> aethetics. I think there are many many beautiful Japanese pots and at times
> I find their viewpoints to be very intriguing. But, that said, I do not
> think there should be a slavish attitude that everything Japanese is to be
> revered. Some of what I see is also very ugly.
> (clip)
>
> Yup....... no question about the "ugly-ies". They make um' and we make um'
> and everybody makes um' (g). I saw some of the worst ceramic schlock when
> I was there. Make you want to gag. It sat right next to exquisite,
> wonderful pieces. A definite dichotomy.
>
> I don't think anyone has said that the Japanese can "do no wrong in art".
> What has been said is that they have a broader appreciation for the arts
> in their culture and more awareness and contact with pots/vessels. That
> makes the potter's life/job easier and more rewarding.
>
> I truly think that if you took a random sample of 100 Japanese and 100
> Americans that you'd find a more developed awareness of and appreciation
> for all the arts in the Japanese sample. That was my experience traveling
> around Japan, and it is the experience that others I have talked to have
> had. Are there "Joe Sixpack-s" in Japan? You betcha'. Plenty of them.
> Are there "Art Esthete-s" in America? Of course. But overall I think the
> balance in numbers is different because of the cultural upbringing and the
> core value systems.
>
> I think the Japanese are also closer to the spiritual aspects of life than
> Americans are. Shinto and Buddhism seem to be closer to the surface in
> mainstream culture there, than say, ......... Christianity and Judiasm are
> here. Some of the religious beliefs and background have tangentially
> driven some of the aesthetic precepts...and have given them a viewpoint of
> space, line, form, surface, and decoration that is a little different from
> that that is the cultural norm for the Westerner.
>
> The spiritual and aesthetic part of life there is at a little higher plane
> then is typical in America. That makes the populace a little more attuned
> to the experiences of life and the patterns to be enjoyed in day-to-day
> living .....other than the pursuit of money and fun.
>
> This is not "racial" by any means. The Japanese as a race are not somehow
> superior. It is cultural, and comes from a culture that has a LONG history
> behind it.. We are a young country. We have a lot to learn. I wonder
> WHAT it is that we are learning? Americans have gone off chasing values
> that I think are detrimental in the long run. These values place the
> experience of day to day life, the life of the intellect, and the value of
> the aesthetic, at or near the bottom of a heirarchy that places money and
> indescriminate consumerism pretty much at the top.
>
> The scary part is that American culture and values seem to be dominating
> the world right now. Hopefully this is a self-correcting phase in the
> cycle of life .... and the pendulum will eventually swing back a bit in the
> other direction. Balance is the goal..... Yin/Yang .........
> technological/aesthetic.......... money/spirituality ............
> consumerism/environmental activism...............
> power/selflessness.............. all those things. I think American
> culture is out of balance right now....... and the world is following us
> over the edge. Hopefully we all will wake up to the other important values
> in life before we go too far over to easily come back.
>
>
> (snip)
>
> The same thing could be said of Japanese culture. I am not an expert but
> something I saw in the paper last week gives me cause for reflection. Japan
> has finally approved use of birth control pills!!! Gee, haven't they been
> around for thirty years? In my opinion, any culture that treats women like
> that should be regarded very warily.
> (clip)
>
> Sexism is rampant in Japanese culture..... although I understand that it is
> getting better. (Hence the change of official position on birth control
> pills!) That was one of the hardest things I had to deal with when I was
> there (no......sexism......not the availability of birth control pils ),
> even though it was actually a little better than I had expected before I
> went. The repression of birth control availability to women is certainly
> one symptom of this. It was difficult to see women fall into subservient
> roles whenever males were present. The more "public" the situation, the
> more this gender bias was evident.
>
> No one ever said the Japanese were perfect. No one is. Yes..... most of
> us from the western world on the list probably find this a less than
> desireable situation, and seemingly one from the distant past. But is it
> really so far in OUR past either?
>
> Let us not forget that sexism and racism is also still rampant in America.
> So lets's also be a little wary of our own culture's "darkside" . It is
> a little more "covert" and below the surface.....not politically
> correct.......... but it is still here. Look at "equal wage" statistics
> for a simple and blatant example. This is true in many if not most places
> in the world.
>
> We should be wary of that aspect of life ANY place that it is found.
>
> Every culture will have it's strength's and weaknesses if you look for
> them. Does American racism completely negate our technological
> capabilities? Does Japanese sexism negate it's aesthetic awareness?
> No.....I don;t think so. Look for what is good and learn from that. Then
> look at what is bad and learn from that too.
>
>
> (snip)
> >From my experience, I realized that the history of
> ceramics is deeply rooted in Japan and many Americans
> cannot relate to the history or the aesthetics behind
> the history. "clumsy pots" may be an aesthetic with a
> meaning for Japanese which we don't really get, not
> being from that culture. And the importance of the
> history, whether Zen tea ceremony is practised or not,
> still remains though the use of Ceramics everyday in
> Japanese life. It is not learned through 'pitchmen'
> but through use in every home in Japan.
> And the packaging of certain pots held in esteem for
> the aesthetic beauty and historical richness we may
> not understand, is part of the culture of Japan to
> emphasize the importance of things in life. Packaging
> is not meant to increase the prices. Take a look at
> the book "How to Wrap Five Eggs". It shows the
> intrecasies of packaging in Japan. This doesn't hold
> true only for cermaics. If you were to purchase a
> sweet at a candy store or bakery, it would be
> beautifully packaged, too.
>
> Japanese live artful lives every day. THis is what
> America needs to learn. Japanese people choose the
> specific dish for the right food, package novelties in
> special wraps, wear handcrafted clothing - kimono's
> (though I only saw the elders in kimono on an everyday
> basis), etc. They pay attention to detail,
> aesthetics and history, and use folk crafts daily.
> And as a people this is what they learn in their
> culture from birth, not something they learn through a
> pitch on television.
>
> As for the typical Japanese 'personally-felt beauty,'
> people's understanding of beauty comes from our
> culture. Ceramics play a grand part of every Japanese
> life and so every Japanese has a direct connection and
> knowledge of the craft. And with the incredible
> accessabilty to ceramic art (on every corner)and the
> need for specific dishes for specific foods for a
> specific individual in the family, every person in
> Japan builds their own personal aesthetic
> (though of course like I noted, their aesthetic is
> influenced by their culture and that culture is the
> history and aesthetics of tea ceremony pots).
>
> Japanese aesthetics is something we as Americans can
> study, and perhaps understand individually. However,
> we did not grow up in their culture and so their
> aesthetics don't come naturally to us. It is not that
> AMericans should study Japanese aesthetics to have
> them. But we should study the importance that the
> Japanese put on objects used everyday. From wrapping
> a cookie with love to show the specialness of that
> cookie to choosing a specific ceramic dish for a
> specific food. This part of their culture is
> something I believe we all should learn. And if
> Americans had this quality, we potter's would be
> respected more like Japanese potters. And sales would
> climb sky high!!!
> (snip)
>
> WOW! Elise has said a real mouthfull about the experience in Japan in her
> comments. Nice post!!!! Pretty accurate to my experiences while there
> too. There was a piece in CM a while back that reflected the same thoughts
> by a participant in the ICWAT program. Check that out too, if this subject
> interests you.
>
> I had studied Japanese art and culture from the time I was introduced to
> pottery way back in the late 60's, and THOUGHT I knew at least a little bit
> about it. It wasn't until I had the opportunity to go to Japan that I
> really UNDERSTOOD much anything about it's pottery or it's cultural values.
> I still understand very little...... but a little lightbulb or two went
> off. It is almost three years since I was there and I am still digesting
> all I saw, heard, felt, tasted, did, was told, and thought that I learned.
>
> I have a good friend and fellow potter who studied in Japan in the mid-60's
> for an extended period. We worked together at the same school for many
> years...and his "Japan experiences" rubbed off on me by osmosis. We see
> each other infrequently since he still teaches in MA and I am now in NH.
> He had heard about my trip to Japan before I left. We met after I returned
> at a Shimaoka-sensei lecture here in the states. His first words to me
> were, "NOW you understand."...said with a big smile. I just grinned and
> said "Hai."
>
> But it is really more that that I had just BEGUN to understand. If I spent
> a lifetime there....then I would probably understand.
>
> There is one thing I would like to comment on in Elise's post a tad.
>
> Packaging and presentation is an important part of Japanese culture.
> Boy....is it ever. The "gifting tradition" has sustained this important
> aspect of traditional culture....and it has gotten a bit warped at the
> fringes in the chasing after western consumerism (beautifully wrapped
> packages of laundry detergent intended as gifts!!!!) This packaging focus
> is rooted in the deep appreciation of ritual, specialness, and aesthetic
> appreciation of objects....particularly day-to-day ones. A boxed pot is
> more "special" than a non-boxed pot. In a sense it is like Americans
> taking a vessel and placing it on a pedestal with a spotlight in a gallery
> .............. it "elevates" the piece in precieved value. It also just
> simply looks good .
>
> There is also a very practical side to the packaging of such pots.
> Japanese homes often do not have the "clutter" Western homes have. Objects
> are either "out" and in use, or are put away in out-of-sight storage.
> Having a box to safely protect the pot makes storage a much simpler matter.
> Simple, direct, and straightforward.
>
> However, the packaging for pots (the nice little wooden boxes) with the
> pedigree of the piece and the artist's signature often IS very much revenue
> driven. In Japan, a potter is not afraid of placing a HIGH value on his
> work, time, and signature. Very high. The people who WANT and ask for the
> documentation of those signed boxes are often dealing with the monetary
> value of the pieces as much as the piece itself. Many potters often have
> an extra price for the signed box with a piece. If you want the signature
> and pedigree.....you pay more than someone who just wants the pot for the
> pot's sake.
>
> This valuation of the artist's signature and skills and the willingness and
> CONFIDENCE to charge for it is something that is another cultural
> difference related to the valuation of the arts and artists in Japan. In
> America we tend to undervalue pots and the work that goes into them, and
> this too is culturally driven.
>
>
> So........more stuff on this subject .............. .
>
>
> Best,
>
> .....................john
>
> John Baymore
> River Bend Pottery
> 22 Riverbend Way
> Wilton, NH 03086 USA
>
> 603-654-2752
> JBaymore@compuserve.com
> John.Baymore@GSD-CO.COM
>
> "Earth, Water, and Fire climbing kiln firing workshop Aug. 20-29,1999"
>
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