John Baymore on thu 8 jul 99
------------------
(clip)
Just a reminder to all you off-center grippers, and, more importantly,
pottery beginners who may wonder what all the fuss is about:
There are lots of us out here who lead wonderful pottery lives
and are totally fulfilled without owning a bag-full of slider arms,
bars, and attachments.
With a little practice, there are techniques that will allow you
rapidly center and trim any sort of thrown shape.
And, as I've said before (sorry, it's the teacher in me), I do not think
the grip is appropriate for beginners. Just as children must learn
multiplication and division before they rely on calculators to do
arithmetic, pottery students should learn to trim pots without an
automatic centering device before they use one regularly.
Don't get me wrong=3B I'm delighted if you think your work is vastly
improved by owning a Giffen Grip.
But, contrary to recent advertising, this tool is nowhere near as
important in a pottery studio as a wheel or a kiln.
And, judging from the number of people who are saying they
have problems getting it to work properly, I wonder if it simplifies
or actually complicates life in the pottery shop.
David Hendley
(snip)
Hi all.
I don't usually leave a whole message intact when I post, 'cause that makes
the daily CLAYART so huge and is often unnecessary.......... but this one
deserves making sure it is ALL still there ....it is SO pertinant and
important.
I was thinking of commenting to the developing thread on =22The =
Grip=22......
but had done so a bunch in the past and didn't want to take the time right
now (quite busy). Got lazy, I guess =3Cwg=3E. David.... wonderfully put, =
and
thanks for kicking me off my butt to add my two cents to this
(again)....particularly for the newer potters on the list.
I was reading of all the problems in a day's posts about getting the thing
to actually center and hold things..... just before, and after, trimming
124 small plates. I took a few seconds with a watch in front of me to see
how long it actually took me to center and attach the plates to the wheel.
Consistently less than 7 seconds from the time the piece was in my hand and
then set onto the head to firmly attached and kana being picked up. Set on
center by eye (soft focus on the head and piece....not hard focus on
anything) and adjust with a tap or two. I just use three wads of clay to
hold the piece down onto a lightly dampened wooden bat. Every twenty
pieces or so a quick swipe of the wheelhead to lightly dampen it again.
Out of 144 plates I lost one due to the clay wads releasing unexpectedly
and causing an irreparable cut. (Trimmed two too thin too......pilot error
=3Cg=3E.)
OK....OK..... I have been doing this 30 years. So it took a while to get
here. When I first started..... I swore that it was impossible to
recenter =3Cg=3E. Persistence and determination, guided practice, and
individual practice are powerful skill builders. It is VERY important to
note that in learning to recenter a piece on the wheel, I learned a lot
about what center actually means, about the physics of the clay revolving
on the wheel, about working with OFF center, about the general effects of
wheel speed, and about how to deal with the forces involved. This has
helped not only develop my skills in re-centering and trimming a piece, but
in throwing in general. Had I short curcuited this process.... I would
have lost something. I would be a worse THROWER as well as trimmer.
On the couple of occasions I have had to try =22The Grip=22... I found that =
it
was FAR faster to re-center by other methods. Of course some of this is my
lack of familiarity with the tool..... along with long term skill
development......... but I felt that even given many years working with it,
it would probably offer no significant advantage in the long run. Maybe
for some specific forms it might be a little easier or as easy....... but
why invest the money for the few times it might be helpful.... the payback
doesn't seem to be there for what I make. A bisqued chuck would seem to
be just as helpful and not much, if any, slower to set up and attach. If
those few forms are what you make in large numbers,..... have at it.
It's use too soon will, in my estimation also, hinder wheel skill
development in a potter. And skills that don't JUST relate to recentering
a peice. As a ceramics faculty member I discourage it's use until WELL
along in clay handling skill development....... it think it is only from a
FIRM skill base that a person has the necessary background to fairly
evaluate this or any clayworking tool (shy of ergomonic issues). If you
use a college level program as the measuring stick..... for the average
person...... I generally would not recommend using one regularly until well
post grad in skill development.
=22The Grip=22, to me, is a little bit like that bizare device that was
advertised in the mags a while ago. It was a sprayer that sat on the wheel
and automatically sprayed water onto the piece as you threw. Would it
lubricate the piece? Sure. But WHY would you randomly want to add all
that water to the clay =3Cg=3E in most situations? In a very specific
application.... it COULD be useful. But for general use.....???????
The grip may have some benefits in certain situations.... but ya' gotta' be
careful that it is not becoming a crutch.
Best,
......................john
PS: Yes... you can make all sorts of analogies to big drivers in golf,
large head tennis racquets (sp?), shaped skis, and all that. I must be a
purist =3Cg=3E. However...... a shaped ski, for example, requires that the
skier utilize the same base skills that a skier on a non-shaped product
uses. It is not a substitute for those skills....nor does it utilize other
skills....... the skier still has to use the base four skills (balancing
movements, rotary movements, pressure control movements, and edging
movements). What it DOES do is enhances the result of the application of
those same skills......ie. bettter performance and turn shape, and gives
the skier more readily observable intrinsic feedback to when they are
performing correctly or incorrectly.
Not so the grip. No shared skills between that method of recentering and
attaching and other throwing tasks. It is NOT a learning device that
relates to throwing. It is simply a tool. A nicely made tool. An
interesting solution to a problem. Maybe a useful tool at times. But is
also a tool that can allow you to NOT learn certain skills if ou let it.
It is a very specialized tool that probably should be chosen only after
great understanding of how the tool might both benefit, and hurt, the
potter.
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.COM
=22Earth, Water, and Fire climbing kiln firing workshop Aug. 20-29,1999=22
Tom Fallon on fri 9 jul 99
I agree with David Hendly about the giffen grip when he said he's not sure if
helps or hinders the potter (not a direct quote!). I have never had one in my
studio but I have seen pictures. I don't understand the need for this,
centering a thrown pot or a hand built pot of any shape or size for trimming
only takes 15-20 seconds anyway, and I can't imagine this thing improving
centering capabilities for trimming much if at all after it's mastered (which
could take a while from what I've read) so why use? Can anyone educate me on
this subject? Everyone talking about it has gotten my curiosity up!
Regards,
Tom Fallon
anna taylor on fri 9 jul 99
What's a slider arm? I have not heard of all these tools that keep being
mentioned. I am a beginner (only 3 semesters) and we have done everything
by hand except build a gas kiln (already supplied). I think it gives you a
better sense of ownership if you did the clay piece without all these nifty
gadgets and tools and just did everything by hand like they did in the REAL
old days. Just my opinion.
C' ya!
Anna
>From: John Baymore
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: In the grip of the giffen (Amen)
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:12:02 EDT
>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>------------------
>(clip)
>Just a reminder to all you off-center grippers, and, more importantly,
>pottery beginners who may wonder what all the fuss is about:
>There are lots of us out here who lead wonderful pottery lives
>and are totally fulfilled without owning a bag-full of slider arms,
>bars, and attachments.
>
>With a little practice, there are techniques that will allow you
>rapidly center and trim any sort of thrown shape.
>And, as I've said before (sorry, it's the teacher in me), I do not think
>the grip is appropriate for beginners. Just as children must learn
>multiplication and division before they rely on calculators to do
>arithmetic, pottery students should learn to trim pots without an
>automatic centering device before they use one regularly.
>
>Don't get me wrong; I'm delighted if you think your work is vastly
>improved by owning a Giffen Grip.
>But, contrary to recent advertising, this tool is nowhere near as
>important in a pottery studio as a wheel or a kiln.
>And, judging from the number of people who are saying they
>have problems getting it to work properly, I wonder if it simplifies
>or actually complicates life in the pottery shop.
>
>David Hendley
>
>(snip)
>
>
>Hi all.
>
>I don't usually leave a whole message intact when I post, 'cause that makes
>the daily CLAYART so huge and is often unnecessary.......... but this one
>deserves making sure it is ALL still there ....it is SO pertinant and
>important.
>
>I was thinking of commenting to the developing thread on "The Grip"......
>but had done so a bunch in the past and didn't want to take the time right
>now (quite busy). Got lazy, I guess . David.... wonderfully put, and
>thanks for kicking me off my butt to add my two cents to this
>(again)....particularly for the newer potters on the list.
>
>I was reading of all the problems in a day's posts about getting the thing
>to actually center and hold things..... just before, and after, trimming
>124 small plates. I took a few seconds with a watch in front of me to see
>how long it actually took me to center and attach the plates to the wheel.
>Consistently less than 7 seconds from the time the piece was in my hand and
>then set onto the head to firmly attached and kana being picked up. Set on
>center by eye (soft focus on the head and piece....not hard focus on
>anything) and adjust with a tap or two. I just use three wads of clay to
>hold the piece down onto a lightly dampened wooden bat. Every twenty
>pieces or so a quick swipe of the wheelhead to lightly dampen it again.
>Out of 144 plates I lost one due to the clay wads releasing unexpectedly
>and causing an irreparable cut. (Trimmed two too thin too......pilot error
>.)
>
>OK....OK..... I have been doing this 30 years. So it took a while to get
>here. When I first started..... I swore that it was impossible to
>recenter . Persistence and determination, guided practice, and
>individual practice are powerful skill builders. It is VERY important to
>note that in learning to recenter a piece on the wheel, I learned a lot
>about what center actually means, about the physics of the clay revolving
>on the wheel, about working with OFF center, about the general effects of
>wheel speed, and about how to deal with the forces involved. This has
>helped not only develop my skills in re-centering and trimming a piece, but
>in throwing in general. Had I short curcuited this process.... I would
>have lost something. I would be a worse THROWER as well as trimmer.
>
>On the couple of occasions I have had to try "The Grip"... I found that it
>was FAR faster to re-center by other methods. Of course some of this is my
>lack of familiarity with the tool..... along with long term skill
>development......... but I felt that even given many years working with it,
>it would probably offer no significant advantage in the long run. Maybe
>for some specific forms it might be a little easier or as easy....... but
>why invest the money for the few times it might be helpful.... the payback
>doesn't seem to be there for what I make. A bisqued chuck would seem to
>be just as helpful and not much, if any, slower to set up and attach. If
>those few forms are what you make in large numbers,..... have at it.
>
>It's use too soon will, in my estimation also, hinder wheel skill
>development in a potter. And skills that don't JUST relate to recentering
>a peice. As a ceramics faculty member I discourage it's use until WELL
>along in clay handling skill development....... it think it is only from a
>FIRM skill base that a person has the necessary background to fairly
>evaluate this or any clayworking tool (shy of ergomonic issues). If you
>use a college level program as the measuring stick..... for the average
>person...... I generally would not recommend using one regularly until well
>post grad in skill development.
>
>"The Grip", to me, is a little bit like that bizare device that was
>advertised in the mags a while ago. It was a sprayer that sat on the wheel
>and automatically sprayed water onto the piece as you threw. Would it
>lubricate the piece? Sure. But WHY would you randomly want to add all
>that water to the clay in most situations? In a very specific
>application.... it COULD be useful. But for general use.....???????
>
>The grip may have some benefits in certain situations.... but ya' gotta' be
>careful that it is not becoming a crutch.
>
>
>Best,
>
>......................john
>
>
>PS: Yes... you can make all sorts of analogies to big drivers in golf,
>large head tennis racquets (sp?), shaped skis, and all that. I must be a
>purist . However...... a shaped ski, for example, requires that the
>skier utilize the same base skills that a skier on a non-shaped product
>uses. It is not a substitute for those skills....nor does it utilize other
>skills....... the skier still has to use the base four skills (balancing
>movements, rotary movements, pressure control movements, and edging
>movements). What it DOES do is enhances the result of the application of
>those same skills......ie. bettter performance and turn shape, and gives
>the skier more readily observable intrinsic feedback to when they are
>performing correctly or incorrectly.
>
>Not so the grip. No shared skills between that method of recentering and
>attaching and other throwing tasks. It is NOT a learning device that
>relates to throwing. It is simply a tool. A nicely made tool. An
>interesting solution to a problem. Maybe a useful tool at times. But is
>also a tool that can allow you to NOT learn certain skills if ou let it.
>It is a very specialized tool that probably should be chosen only after
>great understanding of how the tool might both benefit, and hurt, the
>potter.
>
>
>John Baymore
>River Bend Pottery
>22 Riverbend Way
>Wilton, NH 03086 USA
>
>603-654-2752
>JBaymore@compuserve.com
>John.Baymore@GSD-CO.COM
>
>"Earth, Water, and Fire climbing kiln firing workshop Aug. 20-29,1999"
_______________________________________________________________
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Jeri Palmer on sat 10 jul 99
Tom, I confess yes OK I did it I bought a giffen grip. I'm sorry I had no
idea.
I bought said tool (and it is just a tool, folks) because I work in ^10
porcelain and I work thin and large. I am do not own a pug mill so all my
clay is recycled by hand. I go through about 1500lbs of clay a year. That
is a lot of clay. It breaks my heart to build a big chuck of porcelain just
to use to trim a narrow necked piece. I thought the grip would allow me to
expand my throwing shapes and sizes. And I was right. I am much more brave
now that I only have to repug the wrecked pieces and not the whole chuck too.
I don't use the grip for very much but I love it for some things. I still
haven't figured out bottles yet. Love to throw them but still trash them
when I trim. Jeri Ps My friend the lit professor hates spellchecker but I
use that too.
Vicki Ferris on tue 13 jul 99
Hi Tom,
Last fall there was a discussion about the Giffin Grip. Many Clayarters said
they loved it and wouldn't be without it. They said that production potters
could trim in such a short time, etc. I thought I wouldn't need one since I
wasn't doing production but still was having a hard time centering and
keeping the pot on the wheel head. After much thought, I asked Santa for the
grip. For 6 months now I have used it without any problems. It is a wonderful
tool and takes the place of my chucks which I had trouble using. Teapot lids,
goblet stems, lotion dispensers, tall oil lamps, etc. were a real pain to
trim. In a snap, with a grip, you can stick it in, twist the wheel head, and
you are ready. Zip, zip, your trimming in done. If you want to check
thickness, zip it's out, check it, and zip it's ready for more trimming. No
more needle tool lines on my larger pots, no more pots flipping out of a
chuck. I think it is all what you get used to. If you are trimming well
without one, don't bother. If you want your life to be simpler and save time
trimming pots, it is worth its weight in gold.
Having just taken a workshop with Mel Jacobson and watching him center, the
grip is not for him. He can center in a couple of taps. But, his bowls were
not of an odd shape with a skinny top. He did make a cool chuck that will
come in handy but not for some of the work I do. If you can't center fast,
and can't get your pots to stick fast without flying off, then the grip will
help you. It is a real time saver. I have cut my timming time in less than
half and nothing flies off. I haven't had any of the problems people have
been talking about. I just had to speak up since you asked.
Vicki in Cool, Calif.
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