Susan Fox Hirschmann on sun 11 jul 99
Dear Wendy,
The uniqueness, the variation in all of our work, be it functional or
decorative, I believe can never force the issue of regulating prices.
]There are those of us that throw and trim, and pull handles and carve, and
add other decorative treatments, in addition to a wide variety of glazing
techniques and firing techniques. From low fire to high fire, and anywhere
inbetween. There is the "labor intensity " of wood fire, gas fire,
electric.....labor wise and cost wise, there are differences here, as well as
visually. There are those that slip cast, at a fraction of the time
relative to the above techniques.
I do not believe that the "union" or association that we were speaking of was
one that would regulate prices. I DARE SAY ....what an offense not only to
our artistic freedom but to one of the reasons we became potters....or those
of us who make a "living" at pottery---for the FREEDOM to BE, the freedom to
create, and the FREEDOM to price our work as we see fit. (Tho there have
been lengthy discussions about such associations, to help us with our
problems, restricting our freedoms, particularly with pricing, is a negative
issue here)
The glass world, as you have stated before, and which also, as you stated
warrants, an addition aisle in your shows, is a "different" ballgame, i
suppose. If you are saying, if i read correctly, that functional glass
prices are "regulated">.
I do understand your writing with your business input, and your expertise in
the wholesale marketing of craftspeoples' work. I know how well you promote
and do that.
But to ask or even recommend that we , as potters and sculptors, and other
clay artists, abide by price standards or regulations,
is to fail to understand who we are as craftspeople.
respectfully submitted.
susan fox hirschmann
annandale, virginia
Ray Aldridge on tue 13 jul 99
At 01:19 PM 7/11/99 EDT, Susan Fox Hirschmann wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dear Wendy,
(big snip)
>
>But to ask or even recommend that we , as potters and sculptors, and other
>clay artists, abide by price standards or regulations,
>is to fail to understand who we are as craftspeople.
>
Though I certainly can't speak for Wendy, I think you may have
misinterpreted the intent of her post. It was not, as I read it, an
attempt to "regulate" or "fix" prices, though her choice of words may have
given that impression. I took it to mean that it would be useful for
potters as a whole to see what, on average, a given form is bringing.
I confess, I had no impulse to contribute data, because most of the forms
she listed I don't make, and she left out others that I do-- and I use more
elaborate surface treatments than many other potters who make a fairly
large number of pots.
Still, I'd like to know what the industry average is for a simple
unembellished mug, even if I don't make any like that. I let my career lie
fallow for many years, only making an occasional kiln-load. I was
pleasantly surprised to see that mugs which might have fetched five bucks
25 years ago are now bringing $16 and up (yes, I understand this hasn't
kept pace with inflation. But in the short story business, stories aren't
bringing much more than they brought 40 years ago, so it could be worse.)
This became less surprising to me when I realized that mass-produced
Italian earthenware mugs were bringing quite a bit more than I dared to
charge for mine.
This, as someone else pointed out, is something that a professional
organization could provide-- a sort of price index by which potters could
evaluate their own pricing structure. There would be many caveats, and not
just the ones associated with different skill levels, different
reputations, different techniques-- but also regional differences, market
niche, and so forth. It's not a simple matter... for example, such
subsidized potters as part-timers, students, and academic potters may be
willing and/or able to accept lower prices than full-time studio potters.
Still, any information is usually better than no information, so I'll be
interested to know what eventuates. This is another way that the Web could
prove useful to a potter's professional association, since members could
easily post their price points anonymously to an online database, which
would then automatically reflect the current state of the handmade pottery
business, in the various categories that would be necessary.
Other industries are keenly aware of industry pricing, and well-run
businesses keep tabs on their competitors' price structure. Why shouldn't
potters avail themselves of this sort of useful info? I suppose most of us
already do this on an informal basis, checking out the prices at good
galleries and craft shops, and trawling through other potters' booths at
shows. We may do this principally to see the pottery, but if anyone tells
me they never look at price stickers, I will be somewhat skeptical, and
though I won't make fun, I'll smile.
Ray
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on wed 14 jul 99
We go round and round with this question on the list. The $16-$20 mug, the
$25-$50 plate, etc. etc. etc. I think it is important not to price your ware
on whim or myth, but rather on solid information. Start with the materials cost
and firing cost, then your time, i.e. $20-25/per hour, (I'm not joking here
since I make much more than this being a desk jockey and would find it difficult
to earn any less at any other job, including pots), studio costs, etc, etc. etc.
Bonnie (our resident CPA) told me once, that the object is to balance your
effort with your income, i.e. raise your prices if you're selling too many of
something, and see how many you sell. If you make the same amount of money,
you've accomplished the same thing with less effort. An interesting concept.
So, following her advice and hating to make mugs, I raised my prices and now
charge $20 for a mug, retail. They still sell and at the same rate. So I'll
have to raise my prices even higher.
I don't see many glass people at the small local craft fairs around. Either
they just don't bother because they don't make small mugs or brie bakers--or
they feel it isn't worth the effort since their prices would be way out of line
for the people who go to those fairs. On the other hand, you can find many
newbie potters who are selling mugs for $7-$10, and bowls for $10-20, etc, etc.
I think it's pretty difficult because of this factor to have uniform pricing
standards, in any case. I don't think I can compare my mugs with those of a
newbie.
Sandy
Sandra Dwiggins
Sandra Dwiggins
Technical Information Specialist
Office of Cancer Information, Communication and Education
National Cancer Institute
National Institutes of Health
e-mail: sdwiggin@exchange.nih.gov
fax:301-480-8105
phone: 301-496-7406
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Aldridge [SMTP:pbwriter@fwb.gulf.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 1:46 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: pricing standards...say no to!
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
At 01:19 PM 7/11/99 EDT, Susan Fox Hirschmann wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dear Wendy,
(big snip)
>
>But to ask or even recommend that we , as potters and sculptors, and other
>clay artists, abide by price standards or regulations,
>is to fail to understand who we are as craftspeople.
>
Though I certainly can't speak for Wendy, I think you may have
misinterpreted the intent of her post. It was not, as I read it, an
attempt to "regulate" or "fix" prices, though her choice of words may have
given that impression. I took it to mean that it would be useful for
potters as a whole to see what, on average, a given form is bringing.
I confess, I had no impulse to contribute data, because most of the forms
she listed I don't make, and she left out others that I do-- and I use more
elaborate surface treatments than many other potters who make a fairly
large number of pots.
Still, I'd like to know what the industry average is for a simple
unembellished mug, even if I don't make any like that. I let my career lie
fallow for many years, only making an occasional kiln-load. I was
pleasantly surprised to see that mugs which might have fetched five bucks
25 years ago are now bringing $16 and up (yes, I understand this hasn't
kept pace with inflation. But in the short story business, stories aren't
bringing much more than they brought 40 years ago, so it could be worse.)
This became less surprising to me when I realized that mass-produced
Italian earthenware mugs were bringing quite a bit more than I dared to
charge for mine.
This, as someone else pointed out, is something that a professional
organization could provide-- a sort of price index by which potters could
evaluate their own pricing structure. There would be many caveats, and not
just the ones associated with different skill levels, different
reputations, different techniques-- but also regional differences, market
niche, and so forth. It's not a simple matter... for example, such
subsidized potters as part-timers, students, and academic potters may be
willing and/or able to accept lower prices than full-time studio potters.
Still, any information is usually better than no information, so I'll be
interested to know what eventuates. This is another way that the Web could
prove useful to a potter's professional association, since members could
easily post their price points anonymously to an online database, which
would then automatically reflect the current state of the handmade pottery
business, in the various categories that would be necessary.
Other industries are keenly aware of industry pricing, and well-run
businesses keep tabs on their competitors' price structure. Why shouldn't
potters avail themselves of this sort of useful info? I suppose most of us
already do this on an informal basis, checking out the prices at good
galleries and craft shops, and trawling through other potters' booths at
shows. We may do this principally to see the pottery, but if anyone tells
me they never look at price stickers, I will be somewhat skeptical, and
though I won't make fun, I'll smile.
Ray
Gary Elfring on fri 16 jul 99
>I don't see many glass people at the small local craft fairs around.
Either
>they just don't bother because they don't make small mugs or brie
bakers--or
>they feel it isn't worth the effort since their prices would be way
out of line
>for the people who go to those fairs. On the other hand, you can
find many
>newbie potters who are selling mugs for $7-$10, and bowls for $10-20,
etc, etc.
>I think it's pretty difficult because of this factor to have uniform
pricing
>standards, in any case.
I've taken a couple of glass blowing classes (but spend most of my
hobby time
doing ceramics). You aren't going to find any glass blowers at craft
fairs-
it simply costs too much to run a glass furnace (A glass furnace costs
way more
than a kiln AND once you start a glass furnace you have to keep it on-
forever - when the glass cools it pulls the entire furnace apart.) You
might find
a few people doing lampwicking- that's using a torch and making those
little
figures.
I see a number of messages here with people comparing their prices and
quality
to that of Target's pottery. My comment (based on 25 years of
experience in
selling my own software) is that you need to understand *your* market.
For all the potters out there, your market is *NOT* the same as
Targets. If it
were, you might as well give up right away, because there is no way
you can
compete with Target.
People buy your pottery for very different reasons than they buy a set
of mugs
from Target. Until you understand that you will have problems
marketing and
pricing your ware. Target mugs are utility ware- you don't bring them
out for
your best company, and you don't show them off to your friends and
neighbors.
You also don't put them on display in your house.
I would like to think that your mugs (or whaever) are *not* utility
ware.
The people who buy them are proud of their purchase, show them off to
others,
and put them on display in their house. That different market means
you can
comand a higher price for your ware than Target gets for theirs.
Understand
your customers, your local market, and price your good accordingly.
Fixed prices for a mug or whatever won't work. Will people in Kansas
City pay
the same amount of money for a fancy mug that people in New York city
will?
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