David Hendley on mon 19 jul 99
Wendy Rosen, in her contraversial 'price fixing' post,
suggested that potters (people working in clay) should take
a hint from glass blowers when pricing their work.
Where potters work is genereally priced in the $XX's, glass is priced
in the $XXX's.
I think there are good and logical reasons for the price differential
between glass and clay, and, in fact, compared to some other media,
clayworkers as a group do better than many craft workers.
Please remember that my comments below are sweeping generalities,
but I think there is truth in them.
One of the key factors in determining the price one can charge for
craftwork is how much specialized equipment is needed to
make the craft and how expensive the equipment is to buy and
operate.
A glass blowing studio is horribly expensive to set up and maintain.
That means relatively few people do it, and the overhead is high for
those that do.
That equals high prices for the finished product.
Compare this to one of the fiber arts, say, crocheting. This requires
about $5 worth of equipment and no overhead (you can do it
sitting on your living room sofa).
As you would expect, it is next-to-impossible to make a reasonable
return on your time with this craft.
Simple wood crafts are also in this catagory. Even though you need some
equipment, you probably already have a saw and a drill around the house
and you can get whatever else you need for a few hundred dollars
down at Home Depot.
The wood items I see for sale at craft fairs are priced at absurd levels, like
barely the cost of the materials.
This puts ceramics about right in the middle.
Tied in with this is the 'part-time' and 'hobbyist' factor. No one is going
to maintain a hot glass studio as a hobby, so they can work on it a few
hours a week. If you want to buy blown glass, you will be buying
from a professional who expects to make a living from her work.
When the hobbyists are eleminated from a medium, the drag
of their unrealistically low prices allows all prices to go up to more
reasonable levels.
Once again, the poor fiber workers get stuck in an unenviable situation.
Many retired women do crochet and sell their work for the cost of
the materials. It makes a professional artist's prices seem outrageous
when they attempt to actually be paid for their time.
Meanwhile, the retired men like to make things in their wood shops,
so they offer for sale stuff that is way cheaper than what a professional
woodworker would have to charge.
Again, this puts ceramics about right in the middle, with more part-timers
and hobbists than some media, less than others.
Another factor that affects the prices people expect to pay is the
amount of student and teacher work on the market. Here is where
ceramics really suffers; there are lots and lots of ceramics classes in
high schools, jr. colleges, universities, rec. centers, etc.
This is a double whammy because not only is there a steady stream
of low-priced student work for sale, but the teachers also get into the act.
Of course, teachers have no studio overhead to worry about, and,
in a sense, are simply more part-timers, since their main income is
from teaching.
I can tell you that I am not really thrilled to support my local and state
schools with my tax money and then have the teacher I am subsidising
offer her work for sale next to mine at a craft fair. Whoa, let's not open
that can of worms.
I'm all for ceramics being priced higher, but there are very real constaints
as to what people consider reasonable because of the factors mentioned
above, as well as other culturally ingrained ideas.
Even though there are only professionals at a big show like Wendy
puts together, these factors still come into play in the minds of the
wholesale
buyers, and ultimately the buyer's customers
As long as people want to do their art, no matter the pay, it affects the
whole price structure of things. Part of the reason mechanics get $45 an
hour is because no one replaces the timing belt in a car 'for fun' or
'for relaxation'. Plumbers get $60 an hour because people don't want to
come home after work and clean out a stopped-up drain 'to unwind'.
Yet, these are the main responses given when people are asked why they
take a ceramics class or have a home hobby studio.
To put things into a bigger perspective, if you think we have it bad, a folk
singer passing through town recently told me an interesting story.
He said the Bluebird Cafe (a famous music venue in Nashville) was now
'booking' for October.
By that he meant 'booking' people, 3 months in advance, to play music, for
free, for 10 minutes, during the times when the real band was taking a break.
What a deal....do you think I could sign up and give away some pottery, too?
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
k.smead on tue 20 jul 99
Don't think this post merits to much of my dwindling..energies.... thought
at first it was an artist statement..LOL
I forwarded it to my woodworking artist friend in Putney ,Vermont...thought
she would enjoy hearing about how inexpensive setting up a woodworking shop
is....lol Particularly since her studio burnt to the
ground a year ago..and it has taken over a year to rebuild and replace her
equipment and costs were far more than most potters must afford..
For the fun of investment, I checked out buying a Peter Voulkas...and he
seems to be doing quite well... LOL...think art is subjectively priced and
one should keep one's proverbial finger pointed at oneself rather than look
for reasons for various differences in the price of art.... Marketing and
skill are important to the price and help to set the value.....If one
believes his/her pot is worth $22,000 then to be true to himself/herself
that price should be asked... if no one buys...go to nursing school...or
take up something to do for money.... Geeze... all a painter needs is a
little paint, a brush..and a canvas....
I do hope that if one is trying to make a living in pottery, that they have
more to sell than the meager works of students being "turned on" to art at
their local colleges...and btw... I wouldn't necessary pay more for
glass than clay works...or watercolor over oil....or wood over textile...
But David you did qualify by stating your remarks were "sweeping
generalizations" so... peace be with you and all that u create....
katie..
on the gulf of Mexico where emerald green waters paint the white sands as
dolphins dance...
----- Original Message -----
From: David Hendley
To:
Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 12:38 PM
Subject: 'Price fixing': ceramics vs. other media
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Wendy Rosen, in her contraversial 'price fixing' post,
> suggested that potters (people working in clay) should take
> a hint from glass blowers when pricing their work.
> Where potters work is genereally priced in the $XX's, glass is priced
> in the $XXX's.
>
> I think there are good and logical reasons for the price differential
> between glass and clay, and, in fact, compared to some other media,
> clayworkers as a group do better than many craft workers.
> Please remember that my comments below are sweeping generalities,
> but I think there is truth in them.
>
> One of the key factors in determining the price one can charge for
> craftwork is how much specialized equipment is needed to
> make the craft and how expensive the equipment is to buy and
> operate.
> A glass blowing studio is horribly expensive to set up and maintain.
> That means relatively few people do it, and the overhead is high for
> those that do.
> That equals high prices for the finished product.
> Compare this to one of the fiber arts, say, crocheting. This requires
> about $5 worth of equipment and no overhead (you can do it
> sitting on your living room sofa).
> As you would expect, it is next-to-impossible to make a reasonable
> return on your time with this craft.
> Simple wood crafts are also in this catagory. Even though you need some
> equipment, you probably already have a saw and a drill around the house
> and you can get whatever else you need for a few hundred dollars
> down at Home Depot.
> The wood items I see for sale at craft fairs are priced at absurd levels,
like
> barely the cost of the materials.
>
> This puts ceramics about right in the middle.
>
> Tied in with this is the 'part-time' and 'hobbyist' factor. No one is
going
> to maintain a hot glass studio as a hobby, so they can work on it a few
> hours a week. If you want to buy blown glass, you will be buying
> from a professional who expects to make a living from her work.
> When the hobbyists are eleminated from a medium, the drag
> of their unrealistically low prices allows all prices to go up to more
> reasonable levels.
> Once again, the poor fiber workers get stuck in an unenviable situation.
> Many retired women do crochet and sell their work for the cost of
> the materials. It makes a professional artist's prices seem outrageous
> when they attempt to actually be paid for their time.
> Meanwhile, the retired men like to make things in their wood shops,
> so they offer for sale stuff that is way cheaper than what a professional
> woodworker would have to charge.
>
> Again, this puts ceramics about right in the middle, with more part-timers
> and hobbists than some media, less than others.
>
> Another factor that affects the prices people expect to pay is the
> amount of student and teacher work on the market. Here is where
> ceramics really suffers; there are lots and lots of ceramics classes in
> high schools, jr. colleges, universities, rec. centers, etc.
> This is a double whammy because not only is there a steady stream
> of low-priced student work for sale, but the teachers also get into the
act.
> Of course, teachers have no studio overhead to worry about, and,
> in a sense, are simply more part-timers, since their main income is
> from teaching.
> I can tell you that I am not really thrilled to support my local and state
> schools with my tax money and then have the teacher I am subsidising
> offer her work for sale next to mine at a craft fair. Whoa, let's not open
> that can of worms.
>
> I'm all for ceramics being priced higher, but there are very real
constaints
> as to what people consider reasonable because of the factors mentioned
> above, as well as other culturally ingrained ideas.
> Even though there are only professionals at a big show like Wendy
> puts together, these factors still come into play in the minds of the
> wholesale
> buyers, and ultimately the buyer's customers
> As long as people want to do their art, no matter the pay, it affects the
> whole price structure of things. Part of the reason mechanics get $45 an
> hour is because no one replaces the timing belt in a car 'for fun' or
> 'for relaxation'. Plumbers get $60 an hour because people don't want to
> come home after work and clean out a stopped-up drain 'to unwind'.
> Yet, these are the main responses given when people are asked why they
> take a ceramics class or have a home hobby studio.
>
> To put things into a bigger perspective, if you think we have it bad, a
folk
> singer passing through town recently told me an interesting story.
> He said the Bluebird Cafe (a famous music venue in Nashville) was now
> 'booking' for October.
> By that he meant 'booking' people, 3 months in advance, to play music, for
> free, for 10 minutes, during the times when the real band was taking a
break.
> What a deal....do you think I could sign up and give away some pottery,
too?
>
> David Hendley
> Maydelle, Texas
> hendley@tyler.net
> http://www.farmpots.com
Mason Batchelder on fri 23 jul 99
Hi,
The concept of price fixing is very much against the law unless no one here
is aware of that fact. This list and all discussions can be retrieved on the
Internet by those who monitor such issues with a search engine. My husband is
in business and when he attends conventions his entire groups are instructed
on the illegality of discussing prices that could lead to price fixing
allegations. This is apparently taken very seriously by the government.
I, personally, do not think it is wrong to consider all the costs of doing
business and market dynamics involved in marketing but putting out lists of
"SUGGESTED PRICING"may be out of line here.
Just my 2 cents worth.
M.
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