Wynne Wilbur on fri 23 jul 99
jar lid trimming? here goes...
Generally, when trimming, without anything to offset it, the pull of the
trimming tool on the right side of the pot will pull the pot off center
or up and off the wheel head. Many people use wads of clay to hold the
pot down and keep it from shifting or pulling up - a technique that
interfers with picking it up to check progress and can mar the top edge
of the pot. Holding the pot down with your left hand to counteract this
shifting is a bit problematic because one finger's pressure is very
localized and it is easy to punch through the bottom (my undergrad prof
always equated it with a spike heel punching through linoleum - I know -
it dates him and me!).
The jar lid solution:
After you have centered your pot for trimming, place a small jar lid
that is about 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the bottom to be
trimmed, on the bottom of the pot. Push down on this lid with your left
hand to hold the pot down while triming with the tool in your right
hand. (and by the way, I do it this way even though I am left handed -
your hands are touching and work in tandem I think). The wider diameter
of the lid (versus your finger) distributes the downward pressure to a
bigger area (I'm sure there is a good physics explanation of this) and
keeps you from punching through the bottom.
Advantages? Easy access to your pot - it can be picked up at any time
and recentered without fuss, less chance of damaging the pot rim with
your clay wads , a good way to make consistent sized bottoms (as David
said)...
hope this helps,
Wynne Wilbur
grad student, Univ of Florida
elizabeth priddy on sat 24 jul 99
I want to try this and give my students
another option...can you clarify some:
Is this mainly for pots with flat bottoms,
or what happens to the part underneath the lid?
what do you do for the pots with raised feet?
do you think a canning jar lid would work for pots
with raised feet? I will try it when I get a chance,
but do you already know, by chance?
I have never seen this and am really interested.
I couldn't picture it when you first posted but I
think I understand now. The physics makes a lot of
sense, in fact. I've been following the thread
hoping someone would get around to asking for more
information...
Where did you learn this cool technique?
---
Elizabeth Priddy
I speak from sincerity and experience, not authority...
email: epriddy@usa.net
www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:08:06 Wynne Wilbur wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>jar lid trimming? here goes...
>
>Generally, when trimming, without anything to offset it, the pull of the
>trimming tool on the right side of the pot will pull the pot off center
>or up and off the wheel head. Many people use wads of clay to hold the
>pot down and keep it from shifting or pulling up - a technique that
>interfers with picking it up to check progress and can mar the top edge
>of the pot. Holding the pot down with your left hand to counteract this
>shifting is a bit problematic because one finger's pressure is very
>localized and it is easy to punch through the bottom (my undergrad prof
>always equated it with a spike heel punching through linoleum - I know -
>it dates him and me!).
>
>The jar lid solution:
>
>After you have centered your pot for trimming, place a small jar lid
>that is about 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the bottom to be
>trimmed, on the bottom of the pot. Push down on this lid with your left
>hand to hold the pot down while triming with the tool in your right
>hand. (and by the way, I do it this way even though I am left handed -
>your hands are touching and work in tandem I think). The wider diameter
>of the lid (versus your finger) distributes the downward pressure to a
>bigger area (I'm sure there is a good physics explanation of this) and
>keeps you from punching through the bottom.
>
>Advantages? Easy access to your pot - it can be picked up at any time
>and recentered without fuss, less chance of damaging the pot rim with
>your clay wads , a good way to make consistent sized bottoms (as David
>said)...
>
>hope this helps,
>
>Wynne Wilbur
>grad student, Univ of Florida
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
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Craig Martell on sun 25 jul 99
Hi:
I've used jar lids and bottle caps on occasion to hold pots down for
trimming. It works fine if you aren't doing some real "aggressive cutting".
A guy I worked with many years ago called this method "the poor man's Giffin
Grip". He did this jar lid thing all the time. It wasn't that he was poor,
he was just a cheapskate and would never buy anything "frivilous". I think
that the jar lid thing would work great in conjunction with a Grabber Pad,
not that it doesn't work without one. I really like sticking pots to the
wheel head and find that this works the very best for me on a lot of forms.
Speaking of that, I need to go turn a series of bowls!
later, Craig Martell in Oregon
David Hendley on tue 27 jul 99
At 04:14 PM 7/24/99 EDT, Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I want to try this and give my students
>another option...can you clarify some:
>
>Is this mainly for pots with flat bottoms,
>or what happens to the part underneath the lid?
Yes. You can't trim the part under the lid.
>
>what do you do for the pots with raised feet?
>
You don't use this technique.
>do you think a canning jar lid would work for pots
>with raised feet? I will try it when I get a chance,
>but do you already know, by chance?
>
No, if you mean the threaded 'ring'. The idea is that the lid distributes
the pressure from you finger over a greater surace area so you don't
poke through the bottom of the pot with your finger. There would be
no place to put your finger using the ring.
Yes, if you mean the flat part of a 2-part caning jar lid, but you still
couldn't trim uner the lid to make a raised foot.
>
>Where did you learn this cool technique?
>
I don't know - been doing it for more than 20 years.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
hendley@tyler.net
http://www.farmpots.com
Bobbi Bassett on tue 27 jul 99
In a message dated 7/23/99 6:09:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wmwil@ufl.edu
writes:
>
> The jar lid solution:
>
> After you have centered your pot for trimming, place a small jar lid
> that is about 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the bottom to be
> trimmed, on the bottom of the pot.
A potter I saw demo-ing at a show was using a catsup bottle top and one
finger. When I got home I tried it. It's really great and the catsup lid fits
almost any pot.
Bobbi in PA
Wynne Wilbur on tue 27 jul 99
> ---------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I want to try this and give my students
> another option...can you clarify some:
>
> Is this mainly for pots with flat bottoms,
> or what happens to the part underneath the lid?
>
This works well for pots with feet. You use the jar lid to hold the pot when yo
trimming the outside, and then may need to use a bit of clay to hold the pot dow
when you are ready to trim the inside. I use a small tool on the inside
and trim fairly wet so I don't usually need to use clay wads.
>
> do you think a canning jar lid would work for pots
> with raised feet? I will try it when I get a chance,
>
You need to push down on the center of the lid rather firmly so the pot
won't move - so I don't think a canning jar lid would work.
> but do you already know, by chance?
>
>
> I have never seen this and am really interested.
> I couldn't picture it when you first posted but I
> think I understand now. The physics makes a lot of
> sense, in fact. I've been following the thread
> hoping someone would get around to asking for more
> information.
>
>
> Where did you learn this cool technique?
>
I learned this from my undergraduate professor at Bethany College in
Lindsborg, Kansas: Ray Kahmeyer. I think he learned it from Angelo
Garzio who taught at Kansas State.
Hope this helps, feel free to e-mail me directly if you have more
questions.
Wynne Wilbur
Grad Student, Univ of Florida
Earl Brunner on wed 28 jul 99
I use the jar ring when I'm trimming foot rims, I just use the jar lid for the
outsid part of the trimming, (usually where the most sideways force is
applied) then I remove the jar lid and counter trimming pressure with a
finger on the part of the bottom that will become the foot while I trim out the
middle, this little bit of bare finger on the foot rim doesn't seem to be a
problem.
millie carpenter wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I see where the jar lit works if you are not doing a foot ring. but if you
> are doing a foot ring, what else can you do that won't deform the rim the
> way that clay lugs will?
>
> millie melting in Md
>
> > After you have centered your pot for trimming, place a small jar lid
> > that is about 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the bottom to be
> > trimmed, on the bottom of the pot. Push down on this lid with your left
> > hand to hold the pot down while triming with the tool in your right
> > hand. (and by the way, I do it this way even though I am left handed -
> > your hands are touching and work in tandem I think). The wider diameter
> > of the lid (versus your finger) distributes the downward pressure to a
> > bigger area (I'm sure there is a good physics explanation of this) and
> > keeps you from punching through the bottom.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
John K Dellow on wed 28 jul 99
I use a wet chum to hold my strawberry pots while I trim them .
You could try one.
Take a firm lump of clay and centre on the wheel , making a dome
shape, using your callipers etc. to make it a nice tight fit for
your pot. Then stretch a piece of cloth over the clay ,tucking
the corners into the base of the clay dome . This is good for
tall awkward shapes as well as bowls.
millie carpenter wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I see where the jar lit works if you are not doing a foot ring. but if you
> are doing a foot ring, what else can you do that won't deform the rim the
> way that clay lugs will?
>
> millie melting in Md
>
> > After you have centered your pot for trimming, place a small jar lid
> > that is about 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the bottom to be
> > trimmed, on the bottom of the pot. Push down on this lid with your left
> > hand to hold the pot down while triming with the tool in your right
> > hand. (and by the way, I do it this way even though I am left handed -
> > your hands are touching and work in tandem I think). The wider diameter
> > of the lid (versus your finger) distributes the downward pressure to a
> > bigger area (I'm sure there is a good physics explanation of this) and
> > keeps you from punching through the bottom.
--
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
ICQ : #2193986 {jacka}
E-mail : dellowjk@kewl.com.au
25 Hugh Guinea Ct, Worongary Q 4213
Ph:+61-7-55302875 Fax:+61-7-55253585
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
Lori Pierce on thu 29 jul 99
Wynne, this is the first time I have heard of trimming the INSIDE of a pot.
Is this common practice in certain 'schools' of pottery? Lori in New Port
Richey Fl.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wynne Wilbur
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Jar Lid Trimming
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> ---------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> I want to try this and give my students
>> another option...can you clarify some:
>>
>> Is this mainly for pots with flat bottoms,
>> or what happens to the part underneath the lid?
>>
>This works well for pots with feet. You use the jar lid to hold the pot
when yo
>
>trimming the outside, and then may need to use a bit of clay to hold the
pot dow
>
>when you are ready to trim the inside. I use a small tool on the inside
>
>and trim fairly wet so I don't usually need to use clay wads.
>
>>
>> do you think a canning jar lid would work for pots
>> with raised feet? I will try it when I get a chance,
>>
>You need to push down on the center of the lid rather firmly so the pot
>won't move - so I don't think a canning jar lid would work.
>
>> but do you already know, by chance?
>>
>>
>> I have never seen this and am really interested.
>> I couldn't picture it when you first posted but I
>> think I understand now. The physics makes a lot of
>> sense, in fact. I've been following the thread
>> hoping someone would get around to asking for more
>> information.
>>
>>
>> Where did you learn this cool technique?
>>
>I learned this from my undergraduate professor at Bethany College in
>Lindsborg, Kansas: Ray Kahmeyer. I think he learned it from Angelo
>Garzio who taught at Kansas State.
>
>Hope this helps, feel free to e-mail me directly if you have more
>questions.
>
>Wynne Wilbur
>Grad Student, Univ of Florida
>
Dale A. Neese on fri 30 jul 99
Have you admired how light some of the Chinese porcelain feels? How could
anyone throw porcelain that thin? They have been trimming the inside and
outside for centuries.
Dale Tex
John K Dellow on mon 2 aug 99
This post remedied me of potters in Arita weighing pots as they
turn them , so they would be consistent weight.
"Dale A. Neese" wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Have you admired how light some of the Chinese porcelain feels? How could
> anyone throw porcelain that thin? They have been trimming the inside and
> outside for centuries.
> Dale Tex
--
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
ICQ : #2193986 {jacka}
E-mail : dellowjk@kewl.com.au
25 Hugh Guinea Ct, Worongary Q 4213
Ph:+61-7-55302875 Fax:+61-7-55253585
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
OK XXXVI
For in the Market-place,one Dusk of day,
I watch'd the Potter thumping his wet Clay:
And with its all obliterated Tongue
It murmur'd-"Gently,Brother,gently,pray!"
Ray Aldridge on mon 2 aug 99
At 05:56 PM 7/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Have you admired how light some of the Chinese porcelain feels? How could
>anyone throw porcelain that thin? They have been trimming the inside and
>outside for centuries.
>Dale Tex
>
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that if the interior is thrown to
the desired shape, using ribs, then there would be no point to trimming it,
since trimming from the outside would yield as thin a wall as desired.
Trimming the outside is much more efficient than trimming the inside.
But I could easily be completely wrong.
Ray
Dale A. Neese on wed 4 aug 99
Hey Ray,
I've seen it done. Even with large bowls and sometime cylinders. Just in the
area I visited, the Chinese didn't use ribs in much as their hands. They
threw really thick to make the porcelain keep its shape.Then a master
trimmer had his really sharp trimming tools. One particular tool was
fashioned from a long rod, flattened and curved on the end to reach down in
those cylinders. I saw a Chinese master throw several porcelain cylinders
about 10 inches in diameter and 15 inches tall and about 1 1/2 inches thick.
Let them dry almost bone dry in the sun, slip the edges and place one on top
of the other. Then on the wheel, trim it perfectly smooth, inside and out.
You could not see where the pieces were joined. Large bowls were trimmed so
smooth and thin inside and out. Taking a bone dry thrown piece, recentered
on the wheel, then a thin coat of water brushed on the turning pot and
immediately shaved with a razor sharp hand-made tool. I worked with Chinese
porcelain for 3 weeks. Believe me it is not like any porcelain we have in
the states. It was amazing how much it could take.
Now I guess this inside trimming is the exception rather than the standard
practice since much of the commercial porcelain ware is jiggered or pressed
there too.
We were working in this "primitive" pottery where some wheels were still the
ones you started with a stick. A thrower worked all day long, throwing rice
bowls off the hump. The next person when the ware had dried a little would
invert them over a hump mold sometimes a design carved hump, give them a
slap to press them on to the mold, remove and the trimmer would trim a foot.
The cobalt blue designs were applied both by brush and decals. All week we
were thinking that the once glazed porcelain would go into the saggers and
placed in the enormous wood kilns. Being nosy we looked into a nearly always
locked room to find a huge gas-fired car kiln cooling down with bright white
and blue porcelain!
Later Ray,
Dale Tex
Gavin Stairs on wed 4 aug 99
At 09:42 AM 02/08/99 , you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>At 05:56 PM 7/30/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Have you admired how light some of the Chinese porcelain feels? How could
> >anyone throw porcelain that thin? They have been trimming the inside and
> >outside for centuries.
> >Dale Tex
> >
>
>Are you sure about that? It seems to me that if the interior is thrown to
>the desired shape, using ribs, then there would be no point to trimming it,
>since trimming from the outside would yield as thin a wall as desired.
>Trimming the outside is much more efficient than trimming the inside.
The reference here is to certain Chinese potters using very pure, short
kaolin (actually from Kao Lin, I think) which doesn't throw very well. As
a result, they throw very thick, and then trim to form, both inside and
outside. Actually, I think most of the trimming work is done on the
inside, but I could be wrong. They also join pieces to build up larger or
more complex forms. There was an article about this in CM a few years
back. They described a worker pulling a handful of trimmings out of a pot,
mixing it with water and using that to lute two forms together, then
proceeding to trim the combined form. They used flexible but untempered
tools that they could bend to the curve required. They tested the
thickness by tapping for the right sound.
The bit about using the trimming scraps with a bit of water to join two
pieces makes me wonder about the kinds of porcelains we now use. Anybody
done that with a commercial porcelain?
Gavin
Ray Aldridge on fri 6 aug 99
At 11:28 AM 8/4/99 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hey Ray,
>I've seen it done. Even with large bowls and sometime cylinders.
>You could not see where the pieces were joined. Large bowls were trimmed so
>smooth and thin inside and out. Taking a bone dry thrown piece, recentered
>on the wheel, then a thin coat of water brushed on the turning pot and
>immediately shaved with a razor sharp hand-made tool.
Wow! I have to wonder why they did it that way, instead of using an
interior profile rib and then trimming the outside. Any idea? I would
assume the practice has some economic basis, since that seems to be at the
heart of all Chinese pottery, however beautiful-- even the masterpieces of
the Song Dynasty were commercial production ware, as I understand it,
although some of the markets were very upscale and catered to by court
potters.
Ray
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