Earl Brunner on fri 10 sep 99
The really funny thing Gayle is that I personally don't think that we are that
far apart on our definitions, maybe just the directions we approach the topic
and perhaps it's more a question of language. We sometimes use the same words
but don't mean the same thing.
For example I have no problem with your statement: One being
the type of artist who lives their "Art" and aspires to make every part of
existence an art form. See, I would put myself in that group. I always try for
the goal, the difference is that by the standard I set, I just don't think I
reach it that often.
On the other hand, from our correspondence I would assume that you would place
me in the other group: The other type compartmentalizes and keeps their
"Art" within certain parameters. Maybe you are right some here too. I don't
have a problem separating different facets and parts of my 24 hours a day each
day into different parts. Teaching school (computers) is not pottery for me. If
you mean by aspiring to make every part of existence an art form, that you
aspire for excellence, harmony, beauty and balance in every part of your life,
well who would argue with you about that? Not me, I strive for the same. Maybe
I just call it something else.
There is a Navajo prayer that I read someplace about beauty, surrounding ones
self with it all of your life. "With Beauty May I Walk"
There was one part of your last post that did bother me a bit though.
When I went to college I ran from the instructors/students/people who would
quote critics and various dogmas and had little artistic personality of
their own. This thread made me realize that I am still running from them!
This is extremely judgmental. The assumption here is that people who have
studied the work and thinking of others (or maybe disagree with you?) are
shallow and have no "artistic" expression of their own. Sorry, If you are
lumping me in that category because I have indicated that I have read others and
quoted from their works, then you are dead wrong. My work stands on its own,
I'm just not going to run away from the thoughts and ideas of others whom I
happen to value and respect because I might be afraid of being influenced by
them. Marguerite Wildenhain has influenced my thinking far more than my style.
No problem.
Gayle Bair wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> This will be my last comment on this issue ( is that a round of applause I
> hear???)
> I realized a few days ago after having a go-round with another Clayart
> person that this is a debate between 2 distinct types of artists. One being
> the type of artist who lives their "Art" and aspires to make every part of
> existence an art form. The other type compartmentalizes and keeps their
> "Art" within certain parameters.
> I realized that I was in the "live my art" class a long time ago. I do not
> need to justify or defend myself. Those who "get it" know what I am talking
> about.
> When I went to college I ran from the instructors/students/people who would
> quote critics and various dogmas and had little artistic personality of
> their own. This thread made me realize that I am still running from them!
> Oil and water!
> Gayle Bair artist
> Gaylebair@earthlink.net
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Gerald O'SULLIVAN on mon 13 sep 99
-------------------
The two are connected. It is a mistake to set them up against each other. =
They
are part of the same process. You start off as a potter, practising a craft.=
You
make pots-articles-works-vessels over and over and over again. You perfect =
your
craft. You study the work of others and you learn from them. You understand =
the
society and historical times in which you live. You understand yourself. At =
this
point, and only now, with the help of the vagaries of the clay, glaze and =
fire,
will your work transcend itself and yourself. It will be become Art.
Donn Buchfinck on tue 14 sep 99
Man am I tired of this debate
art, what is art,
are we talking decorative art, descriptive art, utilitarian art
man this word has been ground into dust
Art here in the united states has to deal with the relationship we have with
the scene, the fans the galleries, wanting to be known as an artist is about
recognition and fame, Outward achievements, wheras craft is a life journey.
I know good craft when I see it, and I am impressed with it, but art, so
many people want to artist, like plumbers wanting to be engineers.
it's all about lables here in the USA
and I for one am sick of it
here is a good test to see if you are making art or practicing craft
when you discuss the stuff you make, do you talk about process or message
process is craft, message is art
it is like I said, if I make a pot and it is an ok pitcher then it still has
function, it will hold water, pour and hold my flowers, but will it save the
human race, I don't think so. It might make your room better for having it
in it but I like a lot of massed produced pottery also.
but art is tricker, it works or it doesn't. And all the talk and artist and
discriptive statements will not help a piece that does not communicate a
message clearly.
another problem is that potters want american fine artists and galleries to
adopt the oriental attitude towards ceramics, where pottery is held in high
esteam, hey I'm ready for it, I'm just not holding my breath.
and putting a oil and vinigar set on a pedastel seems quite absurd to me.
What is the deaper meaning in that.
I think the most valuable thing about making pottery is not for us as potters
to make the stuff and have people buy it, this does help pay the bills, but
to have people take classes and touch the clay, to experience the making
themselves. then they will be more willing to pay the prices we are asking.
People are so hungry for something real in their lives, hours spent looking
into computer screens. I teach community classes, and man do I want a
college teaching job, and I would be good at it, I would challenge the
students, but I find I have a great impact on the adult students who take
their personal time and money to take a pottery class. I love teaching these
classes, all of the students are great and I can see that what I do has a
positive effect in their lives.
Once again, put away those pottery/ceramics magazines and look to other
things to drive you in making of your stuff. don't worry about the art vs
craft debate, put some music on, walk away from your computer, take a
class in basketweaving and let history weed out the mix.
hey does anyone know of a teaching job????
Donn Buchfinck
San Francisco
Vince Pitelka on tue 14 sep 99
>The two are connected. It is a mistake to set them up against each other. They
>are part of the same process. You start off as a potter, practising a
craft. You
>make pots-articles-works-vessels over and over and over again. You perfect your
>craft. You study the work of others and you learn from them. You understand the
>society and historical times in which you live. You understand yourself. At
this
>point, and only now, with the help of the vagaries of the clay, glaze and fire,
>will your work transcend itself and yourself. It will be become Art.
I second this. I third it. Very well stated. I especially appreciate the
part about the vagaries of the clay, glaze, and fire. Until we learn to
celebrate the inherent risk and uncertainty in the ceramic process, we may
be limiting our potential by failing to recognize significant improvements
in our own work.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Andy Crimp on wed 15 sep 99
I remembered downloading and printing a small item fron the list last year
as follows:
"When art is inspired by personal vision and craft is the technique that
brings the vision into being then art and craft are one!!"
Les Crimp on Vancouver Island where we are about to take on Maui for sunny
warm weather.
lcrimp@island.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Donn Buchfinck
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: potter vs. sculptor?art vs.craft?
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Man am I tired of this debate
>
>art, what is art,
>are we talking decorative art, descriptive art, utilitarian art
>man this word has been ground into dust
>Art here in the united states has to deal with the relationship we have
with
>the scene, the fans the galleries, wanting to be known as an artist is
about
>recognition and fame, Outward achievements, wheras craft is a life
journey.
>I know good craft when I see it, and I am impressed with it, but art, so
>many people want to artist, like plumbers wanting to be engineers.
>it's all about lables here in the USA
>and I for one am sick of it
>
>here is a good test to see if you are making art or practicing craft
>
>when you discuss the stuff you make, do you talk about process or message
>
>process is craft, message is art
>
>it is like I said, if I make a pot and it is an ok pitcher then it still
has
>function, it will hold water, pour and hold my flowers, but will it save
the
>human race, I don't think so. It might make your room better for having
it
>in it but I like a lot of massed produced pottery also.
>
>but art is tricker, it works or it doesn't. And all the talk and artist
and
>discriptive statements will not help a piece that does not communicate a
>message clearly.
>
>another problem is that potters want american fine artists and galleries to
>adopt the oriental attitude towards ceramics, where pottery is held in
high
>esteam, hey I'm ready for it, I'm just not holding my breath.
>
>and putting a oil and vinigar set on a pedastel seems quite absurd to me.
>What is the deaper meaning in that.
>
>I think the most valuable thing about making pottery is not for us as
potters
>to make the stuff and have people buy it, this does help pay the bills,
but
>to have people take classes and touch the clay, to experience the making
>themselves. then they will be more willing to pay the prices we are
asking.
> People are so hungry for something real in their lives, hours spent
looking
>into computer screens. I teach community classes, and man do I want a
>college teaching job, and I would be good at it, I would challenge the
>students, but I find I have a great impact on the adult students who take
>their personal time and money to take a pottery class. I love teaching
these
>classes, all of the students are great and I can see that what I do has a
>positive effect in their lives.
>
>Once again, put away those pottery/ceramics magazines and look to other
>things to drive you in making of your stuff. don't worry about the art vs
>craft debate, put some music on, walk away from your computer, take a
>class in basketweaving and let history weed out the mix.
>
>hey does anyone know of a teaching job????
>
>Donn Buchfinck
>San Francisco
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