Jean Lutz on sun 31 oct 99
My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has an
outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get good
cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
paint finish.
Jean Lutz
jlutz@azlink.com
Scottsdale, AZ
Tom Wirt on mon 1 nov 99
Subject: Electric kiln fumes
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has an
> outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
> wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get good
> cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
> open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
> paint finish.
Others will add stuff...but my experience is that the fumes will eat
anything steel or aluminum...maybe others as well. Within 1-1/2 years of
fairly regular firing, even with a Bailey vent, everything steel in the
garage was well rusted...bike, tools, etc., and aluminum was deeply pitted.
Don't know how it would affect paint, but the residue, with water (humidity)
is partly sulfuric acid. Not a good mixture for machinery.
Tom Wirt
Tasha Olive on mon 1 nov 99
Jean, until a year ago my electric kilns were located in my garage ( as was
my studio) and I had to share space with my much loved black Merkur. After
MANY, MANY firings under not so nearly as well-ventilated circumstances as
yours I am happy to say that my paint job still looks like new. However,
since I too was concerned about the corrosive effects to the paint ( as well
we should be ) I regularly gave my auto a really good buff and wax job and
maybe this was the reason I've had no ill effects. The effects on me,
however were a different story and as I had not been told in those early
days of learning that the fumes were hazardous, I found out for myself when
one day I tasted a metallic taste at the back of my throat. No one needed to
tell me anything after that as my own body was letting me know of my
stupidity. We have since built a nice studio that has every ventilating
precaution I'm very happy to say. Please, make sure YOU are working well
ventilated always. Tasha
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Lutz
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 9:33 PM
Subject: Electric kiln fumes
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has an
outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get good
cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
paint finish.
Jean Lutz
jlutz@azlink.com
Scottsdale, AZ
'Chapatsu' Rob Uechi on tue 2 nov 99
Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
glaze firings?
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Tasha Olive wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Jean, until a year ago my electric kilns were located in my garage ( as was
> my studio) and I had to share space with my much loved black Merkur. After
> MANY, MANY firings under not so nearly as well-ventilated circumstances as
> yours I am happy to say that my paint job still looks like new. However,
> since I too was concerned about the corrosive effects to the paint ( as well
> we should be ) I regularly gave my auto a really good buff and wax job and
> maybe this was the reason I've had no ill effects. The effects on me,
> however were a different story and as I had not been told in those early
> days of learning that the fumes were hazardous, I found out for myself when
> one day I tasted a metallic taste at the back of my throat. No one needed to
> tell me anything after that as my own body was letting me know of my
> stupidity. We have since built a nice studio that has every ventilating
> precaution I'm very happy to say. Please, make sure YOU are working well
> ventilated always. Tasha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean Lutz
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 9:33 PM
> Subject: Electric kiln fumes
>
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has an
> outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
> wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get good
> cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
> open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
> paint finish.
> Jean Lutz
> jlutz@azlink.com
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
NakedClay@aol.com on wed 3 nov 99
In a message dated 11/2/99, Chapatsu writes:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
> glaze firings?
-------------------------------
Hi Chapatsu!
Whenever anything is fired, there are fumes. The fumes include the vapors
which come out of the dry clay (yes--it's still wet in that clay--though not
noticeable), smoke from any organic material burn-off, and of couse the
beginning of your clay's glass-formers to begin melting. All this occurs when
you bisque-fire a kiln-load of wares.
Glaze firing is far more fume-producing, since most colored glazes contain
metallic compounds, ("carbonates" or "oxides" as may be expressed here at
ClayArt). If one glaze-fires to Cone 10, the fumes will linger longer, since
one not only burns more fuel (assuming one uses a gas or wood-burning kiln),
but the reduction process causes the smoke and heat to remain inside the
kiln, along with with all the fumes coming off the wares.
Best wishes!
Milton NakedClay@AOL.COM
Yucca Valley, CA
Mojave Desert
Now showing in the desert air--clouds! November has begun. The cooler air
requires me to don pants once again :(
Frederich, Tim on wed 3 nov 99
Rob,
There are lots of fumes during the bisque firing. The type of clay you use
and the ingredients in the clay body will determine how much. During the
bisque you are burning out all of the organics in the clay. I have had more
fumes from the bisque than the glaze. It is important to have a good
ventilation on your kiln and also for the studio.
Tim Frederich, Orton Ceramic Foundation
> ----------
> From: 'Chapatsu' Rob Uechi[SMTP:alexei@u.washington.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:57 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Electric kiln fumes
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
> glaze firings?
>
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Tasha Olive wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > Jean, until a year ago my electric kilns were located in my garage ( as
> was
> > my studio) and I had to share space with my much loved black Merkur.
> After
> > MANY, MANY firings under not so nearly as well-ventilated circumstances
> as
> > yours I am happy to say that my paint job still looks like new. However,
> > since I too was concerned about the corrosive effects to the paint ( as
> well
> > we should be ) I regularly gave my auto a really good buff and wax job
> and
> > maybe this was the reason I've had no ill effects. The effects on me,
> > however were a different story and as I had not been told in those early
> > days of learning that the fumes were hazardous, I found out for myself
> when
> > one day I tasted a metallic taste at the back of my throat. No one
> needed to
> > tell me anything after that as my own body was letting me know of my
> > stupidity. We have since built a nice studio that has every ventilating
> > precaution I'm very happy to say. Please, make sure YOU are working
> well
> > ventilated always. Tasha
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jean Lutz
> > To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> > Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 9:33 PM
> > Subject: Electric kiln fumes
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has
> an
> > outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
> > wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get
> good
> > cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
> > open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
> > paint finish.
> > Jean Lutz
> > jlutz@azlink.com
> > Scottsdale, AZ
> >
>
ACTSNYC@cs.com on wed 3 nov 99
In a message dated 11/2/99 1:30:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cseidman@netzero.net writes:
> > Jean Lutz wrote:
> >
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has
> an
> outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
> wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get
> good
> cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
> open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
> paint finish.
> Jean Lutz
> jlutz@azlink.com
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
Interesting question. Much of the metal damage on old kilns is from the
sulfur dioxide from firing clay that combines with water to form sulfurous
acid. It chews the hell out of metal. My guess is that you should worry
more about metal and chrome parts of the car. But the concentrations
would have to be quite high in the garage to do this. Not too likely. Save
your worry for your lungs.
Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC NY 10012-2586 212/777-0062
ACTSNYC@compuserve.com
Tasha Olive on wed 3 nov 99
Yes, there are DEFINITELY fumes from the bisque kiln. I have heard arguments
that the fumes from the bisque are worse for you than the glaze firings. I'm
surprised that some of our really knowledgeables are not giving us the goods
on this subject. Tasha
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chapatsu' Rob Uechi
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: Electric kiln fumes
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
glaze firings?
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Tasha Olive wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Jean, until a year ago my electric kilns were located in my garage ( as
was
> my studio) and I had to share space with my much loved black Merkur.
After
> MANY, MANY firings under not so nearly as well-ventilated circumstances as
> yours I am happy to say that my paint job still looks like new. However,
> since I too was concerned about the corrosive effects to the paint ( as
well
> we should be ) I regularly gave my auto a really good buff and wax job and
> maybe this was the reason I've had no ill effects. The effects on me,
> however were a different story and as I had not been told in those early
> days of learning that the fumes were hazardous, I found out for myself
when
> one day I tasted a metallic taste at the back of my throat. No one needed
to
> tell me anything after that as my own body was letting me know of my
> stupidity. We have since built a nice studio that has every ventilating
> precaution I'm very happy to say. Please, make sure YOU are working well
> ventilated always. Tasha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean Lutz
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 9:33 PM
> Subject: Electric kiln fumes
>
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> My studio is off the garage with an adjoining door. The studio also has an
> outside door with a window that opens and a large window on the opposite
> wall. When I fire I open the window and the window in the door to get good
> cross ventilation. However, on occasion I've left the door to the garage
> open. I'm just wondering if the fumes will have an affect on cars e.g.
> paint finish.
> Jean Lutz
> jlutz@azlink.com
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
Jean Lutz on wed 3 nov 99
Chapatsu,
I notice most of the fumes during bisque firings.
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:57:00 EST
From: 'Chapatsu' Rob Uechi
Subject: Re: Electric kiln fumes
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
glaze firings?
Jean Lutz
jlutz@azlink.com
Scottsdale, AZ
NakedClay@aol.com on thu 4 nov 99
Hi Jean!
Unless your glazes are full of sulfuric compounds, or have other corrosive
chemicals in them, your car is safe. If you use sulfur or heavy salt, you'd
have other problems, such as a quickly worn-out kiln skin or lifeless
electric elements. And your lungs, skin, and eyes would hurt, too. In other
words, most glazes are safe to fire in your kiln, and your car isn't in
danger.
The only danger (a remote one at best) in your case might be gas fumes
igniting, if you start your car while firing your wares. Perhaps it's best to
move the car out before firing.
It's good that you keep windows and doors open when firing.
Best wishes!
Milton NakedClay@AOL.COM
A beautiful, cool evening in the Mojave Desert.
Rhubarb Household on thu 4 nov 99
There are 'fumes' from a bisque firing. I often find that I get a headache
if I hang around my kiln too long during a bisque firing. Rumour has it
that it is the organics burning off that causes the ache......
Helen
----- Original Message -----
From: Jean Lutz
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 2:52 PM
Subject: Electric kiln fumes
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Chapatsu,
> I notice most of the fumes during bisque firings.
>
>
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:57:00 EST
> From: 'Chapatsu' Rob Uechi
> Subject: Re: Electric kiln fumes
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Are there any fumes when there is a bisque fire, or is it only during
> glaze firings?
>
> Jean Lutz
> jlutz@azlink.com
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
Carol Seidman on fri 5 nov 99
ACTSNYC@cs.com wrote:
>
> > Rhubarb Household wrote:
> > > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > > There are 'fumes' from a bisque firing. I often find that I get a
> > headache
> > > if I hang around my kiln too long during a bisque firing. Rumour has it
> > > that it is the organics burning off that causes the ache......
> > > Helen
> ---------------
>
> The headaches are usually from the carbon monoxide from incomplete combustion
> of the organics. Get a carbon monoxide detector from the hardware store and
> keep it near the kiln. It wont record unhealthy levels, but it will tell you
> when the levels are life threatening.
>
> Monona Rossol
> ACTS
> 181 Thompson St., # 23
> NYC NY 10012-2586 212/777-0062
>
> ACATSNYC@compuserve.com
>
>
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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John Baymore on sat 6 nov 99
------------------
I think that just because you notice more fumes from a bisque doesn't mean
that there are more fumes coming off of a bisque. The human nose (and
etc.) happens to be well tuned to notice sulphur dioxide..... a common
byproduct of many bisque firings. Aside from other effects it is a strong
irritant. In this sense, SO2 acts as a =22marker=22 that lets you know that
something is getting into the room air. Sort of like the fact that
propane is pretty much undetectable to the human nose...... it is only the
MARKER that is added to the gas that you can smell in really minute
concentrations. The SO2 is probably not the only thing that is there....but
the others like say...... CO, your body can't detect easily. (By the time
you get the dizzy effect of CO.... you have already been well exposed.)
It is pretty hard to determine levels of junk coming out of kilns and
getting into the air accurately without actual air sampling. Since most of
us don't want to go to the expense of this........ you kinda' have to
assume that stuff is possibly going to get out of the kiln.... and provide
some adequate ventilation. Shy of air sampling, =22adequate=22 in this =
sense
could probably be defined as ..........if you still smell SO2 in the room
during a bisque, your ventilation is inadequate. Another good nose
detectable =22marker=22 for evaluating your kiln ventilation is the chemical
soup of very aromatic aldehydes (and so on) that are produced by wax
burning off pots in a glaze firing.
If you are smelling SO2 in the air when you bisque in a kiln...... then it
is possible that other undetectable stuff is in the air too..... and that
any undetectable stuff from higher firings is also possibly getting into
the air. If you fire stuff that is partucilarly hazardous and prone to
fume or outgas....like a lot of manganese containing glazes..... or clays
containing stuff like fiberglass and organics........then you should be
concerned about this type of issue. If there is already a vent system in
place, and you still smell SO2... then the vent system is operating at a
level inadequate to capture the total =22per unit time=22 evolution of SO2 =
in
the kiln. If other =22non-nose detectable=22 =3Cg=3E materials are being =
evolved
at a similar rate, or are more prone to not be captured due to other
factors such as particle size and weight, then the ventialtion probably
cannot capture them either and they ARE getting into the room.
Rooms attached to living spaces would, of course, be of more concern than a
separate kiln shed where no one goes during firings except to adjust the
kiln for short periods. Except that things like metal fumes will settle
out of the air onto all of the surfaces in the kiln room.... so could
constitute a hazard even after firings are completed.
Adequate ventilation is cheap insurance. No one knows when they are going
to die...... but as a culture here in the USA we tend to buy life insurance
to lessen the impact on our loved ones should it happen at an early age.
Maybe we waste all those premiums....as we live to be 90 or older. But the
insurance gave us some peace of mind earlier in life. No one knows who is
going to be the susceptible one (the lottery of genes) that WILL have a
significant health problem when exposed to the fumes from firing an
unventilated or poorly ventilated kiln.......... but a little insurance is
worth the peace of mind, me thinks.
IMO-better to err a bit on the side of too much rather than too little when
it comes to health and safety. If you're wrong.... all you have probably
lost is a little money =3Cg=3E.
Best,
........................john
PS: BTW....... on the CO front........ go out and get a Nighthawk CO
detector with a ppm digital display and put it in the kiln room if you have
a fuel fired kiln. Cheap insurance on that issue. Can provide some
facinating information on your ventilation system as you place it in
various locations in the room or make changes to the venting. See if you
can get one of the older models since it reads really low concentrations
better than the newer ones (go to the local mom+pop hardware store and look
for the dusty one on the back of the pile =3Cg=3E). It'll only cost about
=2460..... well worth it.
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752
JBaymore=40compuserve.com
John.Baymore=40GSD-CO.COM
Roger Graham on sun 2 jun 02
For Sharon Pemberton, re the fumes from an electric kiln. Your experience
with corrosive nasties from electric kiln follows a familiar path. At the
high school where I worked years ago there was an electric kiln, part of the
art department. Kiln was switched on, last thing Friday afternoon, by a
student on his way out the door. It ran, empty, until it suffered a
melt-down sometime in the weekend. Not repairable, the authorities said. Put
it out to tender, and buy a new one. Wife and self looked at the sad remains
and thought, that would be a fun toy to play with if we fixed it. So we
tendered ($280 I remember). Surprise! We had bought half a tonne of
burned-out kiln. Dragged it home, with the help of muscular friends. Rebuilt
it from the ground up, and set it up in our everyday workshop. Three phase
thing, 12 kilowatts on a 415 volt supply (this is Australia). No thought for
ventilation. Electricity is clean, right? That was fifteen years ago.
In the first bisque firing we noticed the corrosive acid smells. And a day
or two later, saw the beginnings of brown nasty corrosion on metal tools in
the workshop. Steam from bisque firings condensed on any nearby object, and
if one tasted a little drop of the condensed liquid it had a nasty acid
taste. I taught chemistry in school laboratories for most of my working
life, and the smells were familiar. Hydrogen chloride (from decomposition of
chlorides in the clay, I think) and sulphur dioxide, maybe even sulphur
trioxide, from decomposing sulphates in the clay. Any fluoride nasties? I
don't know.
Our solution was to construct a large fume hood over the entire kiln, and
instal an exhaust fan through a vent in the wall. Later when the kiln was
moved to a new larger workshop, an even bigger exhaust system (the pottery
bug had bitten us, by then). Not long afterwards, a visiting customer
introduced herself as the art teacher from a different high school, and
asked lots of questions about the fume hood. In her school, the kiln was in
a little room with no ventilation at all, an offshoot of the larger art
classroom. When the kiln was firing, her students used to sit and breathe
the fumes, wheeze and wipe their eyes, and say "Please miss, can I go
outside? I feel sick." She asked, could we make a fume hood for her too?
Yes, we did.
Not long afterwards, we had a second visitor, another art teacher, different
school. Same story. Same problem. Told about the fume hood by the first
one. So we made and installed another fume hood. I made a series of phone
calls to the school authorities supposedly looking after kiln installations,
to try and dispel the myth that electric kilns are safe and clean because
electricity is safe and clean. Not that anybody took much notice, I felt at
the time, though things have improved here since. Yes, the fumes are bad
news. I don't know how much damage hydrogen chloride does to lungs in small
amounts. It's not poisonous in its own right (the hydrochloric acid in
ordinary stomach juices is just hydrogen chloride in water, after all). But
it surely doesn't do your lungs any good. And sulphur dioxide?
How our perception of these things has changed! When I began as a young
science teacher fresh out of college (it was 1952) every student in every
chemistry class had to prepare or handle nasty things that are now forbidden
on health and safety grounds. Bromine. Hydrogen sulphide. Chlorine. Asbestos
mats everywhere. Benzene. Carbon tetrachloride. Shock, horror. Not permitted
any more.
So make your case, Sharon. Not everything we did yesterday seems wise or
healthy today. Making students (or teachers!) breathe poisonous fumes just
isn't OK any more.
Roger Graham
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rogergraham
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