I.Lewis on fri 7 jan 00
------------------
Gary Elfring wrote
Subject: Lusters???
----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I=
am
interested in experimenting with Lusters, but am not having much luck =
finding
information on how to do them. I have seen the one book in =22The Complete
Potters=22 series, but want more information, plus sources for lusters. I'm
primarily interested in using lusters on stoneware and porcelain. Can anyone
help?
Gary must be joking.
If he reads the book by Margery Clinton from the Complete Potter Series he =
will
find comprehensive instructions, an extensive bibliography and a list of
suppliers. As far as I am concerned it is one of the most up to date =
treatments
of this fascinating process and includes instructions for making a purpose =
built
kiln and for using alternative non oxidising atmospheres. To ask such =
questions
is impertinent and imposes on the goodwill of others in the group.
To put my remarks in perspective, the book which is mentioned gives proven
recipes from that Twentieth Century Master, Alan Caiger Smith and refers =
back to
the original work of Franchet as well as detailed information about =
Margery=92s
own research and practice. It even mentions the research work done by Alan
Caiger Smith and the Australian potter, Alan Peascod on Porcelainous =
Felspathic
Glazes.
Now I think this sort of inquiry links in to the current debate on =
education,
especially the purpose of distance education and the attitudes of students. =
Were
Gary a student of mine he would have been given the task, once he had made =
his
wishes plain, of making a precis of each of the books which might be =
available
to him in the topic he had chosen to study.
It is hard yakka doing distance mode study. Speaking from four years at the
sharp end which meant fifteen to twenty hours reading, writing and
experimentation a week on top of a full time job, On Campus is a lot easier =
and
better resourced. Yes, I did four years that way as well. Good knowledge is =
hard
to come by and it needs far more resources than lecturer=92s texts and mark =
the
cross here type of assessment papers. And at the end of all that grind, =
those
who earn an award, whatever the level, wherever the place, should command
respect.
Ivor Lewis.
Carol Jackaway on sat 8 jan 00
And your response is why so many never even ask questions on this list!!
Not everyone is able to read a book and automatically understand all the ins
and outs of processes that the writer is talking about. Isn't the sharing of
information the main reason that this list is here? If it is SO beneath you
to answer simple questions by people who are just starting out, then don't
make nasty remarks that make them feel sorry they even asked. Bill Daley
told me as his student, that there are no questions that are dumb, simple or
redundent because the person that doesn't ask will never fully learn.
Carol Jackaway
CoilLady
24 years in clay and counting, and still asking questions
elizabeth priddy on sun 9 jan 00
>who earn an award,...should command respect.
a degree is only a tiny droplet in the whole
bucket of a person and in and of itself is not
a good indicator of whether I respect someone.
If respect should be commanded by degrees, I
should have necessarily respected some of the
idiots I went to school with (few potters among
that group, btw). Their degrees don't make
them any more worthy of respect any more than
popping a baby loose makes a woman a respected
mother. Many mothers don't deserve respect,
for instance, and yet motherhood is revered.
You have to look at the whole picture when
evaluating any individual or situation.
For instance, the individual asking about
books on lustres...he may have read the book
you described and found it unusable. I am
unfamiliar with it. Your opinion that it has
all the answers doesn't address the fact that
some people don't read all styles equally
comfortably. The book you described sounds
remarkably boring to me, like a history or a
reference book. Maybe an alternative book
would help him get his feet wet better...
When I have sculpture students, I offer two
books: one is so poorly written as to be
unreadable, but the pictures are fabulous
and all you really need to learn with, the
other is entertaining and colloquial and has
inadequate pictures but they are at least there.
Some students do well with one, others the
other. It's my job to be sensitive enough
to my students to know which one to hand them.
And not judge their potential abilities by
their specific learning needs.
If you watched a friend of mine "learn" by
reading you might think he is slow. He reads
remarkably slowly and moves his lips while
doing so! But he can recall every detail of
it years after the fact. Perhaps you made an
unwarrented snap judgement and then posted
without reading what you had written? I've
done that before myself...
You were quite unnecessarily harsh.
---
Elizabeth Priddy
email: epriddy@usa.net
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
miriam on mon 10 jan 00
Elizabeth-
What are the 2 books you use in teaching sculpture students? I have a
non-book oriented student very good with his hands who might respond
best to pictures. As I have come to sculpture after age 40, I wouldn't
mind a couple of good books myself. Mimi in Hillside, NJ
elizabeth priddy wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> >who earn an award,...should command respect.
>
> a degree is only a tiny droplet in the whole
> bucket of a person and in and of itself is not
> a good indicator of whether I respect someone.
>
> If respect should be commanded by degrees, I
> should have necessarily respected some of the
> idiots I went to school with (few potters among
> that group, btw). Their degrees don't make
> them any more worthy of respect any more than
> popping a baby loose makes a woman a respected
> mother. Many mothers don't deserve respect,
> for instance, and yet motherhood is revered.
>
> You have to look at the whole picture when
> evaluating any individual or situation.
>
> For instance, the individual asking about
> books on lustres...he may have read the book
> you described and found it unusable. I am
> unfamiliar with it. Your opinion that it has
> all the answers doesn't address the fact that
> some people don't read all styles equally
> comfortably. The book you described sounds
> remarkably boring to me, like a history or a
> reference book. Maybe an alternative book
> would help him get his feet wet better...
>
> When I have sculpture students, I offer two
> books: one is so poorly written as to be
> unreadable, but the pictures are fabulous
> and all you really need to learn with, the
> other is entertaining and colloquial and has
> inadequate pictures but they are at least there.
> Some students do well with one, others the
> other. It's my job to be sensitive enough
> to my students to know which one to hand them.
> And not judge their potential abilities by
> their specific learning needs.
>
> If you watched a friend of mine "learn" by
> reading you might think he is slow. He reads
> remarkably slowly and moves his lips while
> doing so! But he can recall every detail of
> it years after the fact. Perhaps you made an
> unwarrented snap judgement and then posted
> without reading what you had written? I've
> done that before myself...
>
> You were quite unnecessarily harsh.
>
> ---
> Elizabeth Priddy
>
> email: epriddy@usa.net
> http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
> Clay: 12,000 yrs and still fresh!
>
> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
I.Lewis on mon 10 jan 00
------------------
Re: Lustres and Education
Carol Jackaway makes some very good points about helping people.
Had the gentleman who made the inquiry about lustres said that he had read =
the
book and then told us of his specific problems or or asked someone to =
enlarge on
a particular aspect I would have been only to willing to help him, to the =
best
of my ability and knowledge. As I pointed out in my posting, there were =
answers
to his questions in the text he mentioned. The tenor of his request =
suggested
strongly that he had not opened the book or even tried to read it. Perhaps I=
am
wrong on that score, but that was the impression I got. If so, I accept your
admonition.
Yes, I know that many people have difficulty with reading, writing and =
rithing.
More than half my working life was spent helping such students to overcome =
their
deficiencies.
Yes, I do think it=92s important to help beginners.
And Yes, I believe there are still more questions to be asked than have =
already
been answered and every question deserves an honest answer.
Ivor. With plus forty Celsius in the studio. But the nectarines are =
ripening.
I.Lewis on mon 10 jan 00
------------------
Elizabeth Priddy gives me a right good dressing down. I seem to have made =
the
wrong assumption. I assumed that Gary Elfring had read the book he =
mentioned.
Sorry, I do not have powers of perception that enable me to interpret net
messages more precisely. I quote, =22I have seen the one book in =22The =
Complete
Potters=22 series, but want more information,..=22 I have interpreted =
=22seen=22 as
=22read=22. Sorry for that Gary.
Since many people, including Elizabeth Priddy, may not have read the book =
here
is a brief summary. Lustres by Margery Clinton, 1991, is a relatively easy =
book
to understand. The language is simple, The illustrations are well presented =
and
clear. There are many colourful examples of work which has been done =
recently,
including test tiles. It describes ways of working. Recipes are given for =
glazes
to be used as bases on which lustres can be applied. It discusses =22in =
glaze=22 and
=22on glaze=22 techniques. It gives precise working instructions for making =
clay
paste lustres. It summarises how to apply gold resin lustre in a chapter on
oxidation lustres. A whole chapter is devoted to making your own lustres and=
how
to solve problems which may arise. Lots of recipes in an appendix. There are
kiln plans and firing instructions. Add to that a bibliography, a glossary, =
a
list of suppliers and a reasonable index and you have a book which would be =
of
interest to any potter.
Yes, there is a bit of history and some superb photographs of historic =
examples.
Yes, the materials are not USA standard issue
Had Gary Elfring not said that he had seen the book but wanted guidance I =
would
have recommended it to him. I suggest any student who has an interest in
decorative clay work should read it.
The edition I have has an Australasian suppliers list. Since the Complete =
Potter
series is edited by Emmanual Cooper, who has made a valuable contribution to=
our
calling over many years and is the respected co editor of Ceramics Review, =
the
book must stand as having some value. I consider Lustres by Margery Clinton =
to
be a definitive and authoritative work on the subject
It is certainly not =22remarkably boring=85=85=85=85like a history or a =
reference book.=22 I
have been inspired.
I hope you all get a chance to read the book.
Best regards, and a Happy New Year
Ivor Lewis
Carolyn Nygren Curran on wed 12 jan 00
I remember writing a posting about a year ago ( when I was relatively new
to Clayart and the idea of discussion groups ) about spelling and grammar
mistakes. Boy, was I blasted about that posting! I don't want to be
called a spelling Nazi again, so I'll try to be gentle this time as I
venture forth with more opinions. The derivation of the word educate is
the latin verb meaning to lead or draw out. Teaching ( or leading out the
students' native intelligence into the world of knowledge) concerns giving
those students the tools with which to learn as well as giving them
concrete facts. The true educator (and I am definitely not among those,
being too selfish to give up my creating time in favor of teaching) gently
prods students into finding the answers for themselves if at all possible.
The true teacher does not spoon feed students with facts without leading
them through the means by which they can find the answers by themselves the
next time. Oh yes, Clayart and similar internet groups are very useful for
quick answers once in a while, but they are no substitute for doing one's
homework -- for reading or somehow absorbing the basics so that the novice
will be able to procede to the next step with less input from the
teacher.
The "read a book" route is the one which appeals most to this primarily
self-taught potter, and so I generally lean towards a do -it-yourself
approach to learning skills and acquiring knowledge. That's my way, and
I may be somewhat impatient with those who are not self starters and
education loners. I do realize that other people may learn better in
other ways, however, and I am a lot more understanding than in my callow
youth. Having said that, I will still advocate the use of books,
magazines and other source materials which are not pre-digested before
giving out the quick answer, and perhaps that is what this Clayart thread
is all about. The student may have to spend more time finding the answer
to a particular question in this way, but he or she will end up with more
and deeper knowledge and understanding of the subject. (Perhaps this is
akin to the daily physical exercise and training regimen of the athelete
preparing for the big race...)
Well, that's enough philosophizing for the day. I guess it all
boils down to expressing one's own thoughts on Clayart - or in any other
public forum - with the realization that there are other valid points of
view apart from one's own.
Back to cleaning and re-arranging the studio... Carolyn aka CNC
Gary Elfring on wed 12 jan 00
At 12:02 AM 1/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Had the gentleman who made the inquiry about lustres said that he had read the
>book and then told us of his specific problems or or asked someone to
>enlarge on
>a particular aspect I would have been only to willing to help him, to the best
>of my ability and knowledge. As I pointed out in my posting, there were
>answers
>to his questions in the text he mentioned. The tenor of his request suggested
>strongly that he had not opened the book or even tried to read it. Perhaps
>I am
>wrong on that score, but that was the impression I got. If so, I accept your
>admonition.
I'm the one who made the inquiry. As I stated in my message, I *read* the
entire book, (cover to cover). And I'm now looking for information specific to
lustres on stoneware or porcelain.
I had to borrow the book to read it and I had to return it. The book is 10
years old, which tend to make me think it is out of date. In addition, past
experience (doing crystaline glazes) has shown me that at least some of every
book on ceramics is simply wrong. I would *never* start out on a ceramics
project without having at least 2, preferably 4 current independent sources
of information. Plus additional current information from people doing that
kind
of work. Even then, I have to sort through that information to determine what
is true, what is simply guesswork, and what is wrong.
As for my abilities, I'm 49 years old and I have B.S. & M.S. degrees in
engineering. I'm the author of two books and numerous articles on topics
ranging
from computers to medicine. I also teach several seminars on computing
across the
United States, Canada, and Europe. And finally, I take ceramics and art courses
at my local community college.
Gary Elfring
ge@elfring.com
Carenza Hayhoe on fri 14 jan 00
I too am one of those who has had "go it alone" . I gained my degree
through distance learning and the Open University, and I am a self taught
potter who even learnt to throw from a book - now long out of print.
Ceramic Review was I would watch the I would watch the post eagerly for
Ceramic Review and read it from cover to cover. And yes, whenever I got the
chance I would visit a pottery and stand in a corner and watch for any clue
to how things were done by "real potters", those lucky people who had been
to Art School or, even better, done an apprenticeship. its a long hard road
without tutors and fellow students. Thank goodness for ClayArt - after
twenty five years in the wilderness I have found the tutors, the gurus and
the students ready to share, to draw out (educare), to philosophise and to
provide the companionship for fellow travellers. We need (perhaps I should
say I need) this contact not only to help me find the answer to a problem,
but also to to prevent me from becoming narrow and self opinionated. Long
live ClayArt and all it does for us!
Carenza. ----- Original Message -----
From: Carolyn Nygren Curran
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: Lustres and Education
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I remember writing a posting about a year ago ( when I was relatively new
> to Clayart and the idea of discussion groups ) about spelling and grammar
> mistakes. Boy, was I blasted about that posting! I don't want to be
> called a spelling Nazi again, so I'll try to be gentle this time as I
> venture forth with more opinions. The derivation of the word educate is
> the latin verb meaning to lead or draw out. Teaching ( or leading out
the
> students' native intelligence into the world of knowledge) concerns
giving
> those students the tools with which to learn as well as giving them
> concrete facts. The true educator (and I am definitely not among those,
> being too selfish to give up my creating time in favor of teaching)
gently
> prods students into finding the answers for themselves if at all possible.
> The true teacher does not spoon feed students with facts without leading
> them through the means by which they can find the answers by themselves
the
> next time. Oh yes, Clayart and similar internet groups are very useful
for
> quick answers once in a while, but they are no substitute for doing one's
> homework -- for reading or somehow absorbing the basics so that the
novice
> will be able to procede to the next step with less input from the
> teacher.
> The "read a book" route is the one which appeals most to this
primarily
> self-taught potter, and so I generally lean towards a do -it-yourself
> approach to learning skills and acquiring knowledge. That's my way, and
> I may be somewhat impatient with those who are not self starters and
> education loners. I do realize that other people may learn better in
> other ways, however, and I am a lot more understanding than in my callow
> youth. Having said that, I will still advocate the use of books,
> magazines and other source materials which are not pre-digested before
> giving out the quick answer, and perhaps that is what this Clayart thread
> is all about. The student may have to spend more time finding the
answer
> to a particular question in this way, but he or she will end up with more
> and deeper knowledge and understanding of the subject. (Perhaps this is
> akin to the daily physical exercise and training regimen of the athelete
> preparing for the big race...)
> Well, that's enough philosophizing for the day. I guess it all
> boils down to expressing one's own thoughts on Clayart - or in any other
> public forum - with the realization that there are other valid points of
> view apart from one's own.
> Back to cleaning and re-arranging the studio... Carolyn aka CNC
>
>
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