Alisa and Claus Clausen on thu 13 jan 00
------------------
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Lois Ruben Aronow =3Cgilois=40earthlink.net=3E
Til: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Dato: 12. januar 2000 23:42
Emne: Re: teaching and critiques
This post is making me think of an =22instructee=22 I have. For a year now =
it would
give me nothing but
sheer pleasure to see her throw something that was centered.
Our studio is an activity center, for the users pleasure. No throwing =
exams, no
degrees. The idea is that we
instructors are there to help and advise. So, I am wondering in a way what
tactic to take to take.
The woman I am writing about has been throwing for a year with us and does =
not
come further.
A typical throwing session is her and I, at times my hands over hers, at =
times
drawings, at times
verbal instruction, at times I just look or go away for a half hour.
The short of it is I learned basic technical aspects of throwing because my
teacher showed me, asked me
and eventually demanded of me, that I do things a certain way while I was =
very
early into my education.
I show this woman what I think basic throwing techniques are
centering
opening
pulling
forming
top lip
bottom
cut off
She is displeased with her efforts, but on the other hand shows no sign of
listening or remembering or implementing
my suggestions. Throw at 15:00 - and with every pull she is sliding over to
19:00. Pull the clay up through the cylinder -
she is shearing off enough clay that she might as well be wearing mittens.
One continuous pull, gently pull away- a frenzy of movements up and off
Anyway, no improvement. We are having fun, but no pots.
There is no personal problem between us, the contrary we always have a good
time. I am postive and we try,
try try again. But nothing is happening here. She is as said not happy that=
she
has not to
date thrown a centered pot, or a pot higher than 3 inches. She asks for =
advice,
looks at books,
and certainly is eager to throw.
I will hang in there with her for as long as she wants to throw.
Question for the teachers on the list:.
Do I believe one day it will just kick in or
continue on her tempo and accept that maybe she will not learn it.
I just wish somehow I could get her to get it together. Both of us would be
happy.
Alisa in Denmark
My clay is cold because I am frugal with
my new heater. I have memories
of the first electrical bill I got when I moved to
Florida and used the A/C nonstop for one month.
We have to remember that the majority of adult
=3E=3E students are doing this as an enjoyable, relaxing hobby=3B they are =
not going
=3E=3E to be making their living at pottery=3B they want to make some nice =
things
=3E=3E that they are happy with, within the limits of their expertise. We =
can also
=3E=3E help them learn to appreciate =22good=22 pottery, and how it got to =
be =22good=22,
=3E=3E but if they don't ever achieve that level of =22goodness=22 it isn't =
our job to
=3E=3E knock them down. Sorry if this sounds like a rant---I get kind of =
wound up
=3E=3E thinking about some of the horror stories I've heard from students=21
=3E=3E A happy New Year to all=21
=3E=3E Dai in Kelowna, B.C.
=3E=3E
=3E=3E potterybydai=40home.com
=3E=3E I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it left.
Earl Brunner on fri 14 jan 00
I too have had student that just don't seem to "get" it. My daughter-in-law is
prime example. I can show, demonstrate, hold her hands in position, what-ever, a
as soon as I let go, she slides off into something else. I can show, talk, do,
model, hands-on hers, whatever, and she just doesn't seem to get it. I have a
couple of students at the art center the same way. When I get too frustrated, I
back of and let them go their own way for a while. Like you said, in this kind
setting there is no grade, not even a curriculum to speak of. They are there
primarily for enjoyment.
Have you thought about steering her to hand building?
Alisa and Claus Clausen wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> ------------------
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Lois Ruben Aronow
> Til: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Dato: 12. januar 2000 23:42
> Emne: Re: teaching and critiques
>
> This post is making me think of an "instructee" I have. For a year now it wou
> give me nothing but
> sheer pleasure to see her throw something that was centered.
>
> Our studio is an activity center, for the users pleasure. No throwing exams,
> degrees. The idea is that we
> instructors are there to help and advise. So, I am wondering in a way what
> tactic to take to take.
> The woman I am writing about has been throwing for a year with us and does not
> come further.
> A typical throwing session is her and I, at times my hands over hers, at times
> drawings, at times
> verbal instruction, at times I just look or go away for a half hour.
>
> The short of it is I learned basic technical aspects of throwing because my
> teacher showed me, asked me
> and eventually demanded of me, that I do things a certain way while I was very
> early into my education.
> I show this woman what I think basic throwing techniques are
> centering
> opening
> pulling
> forming
> top lip
> bottom
> cut off
>
> She is displeased with her efforts, but on the other hand shows no sign of
> listening or remembering or implementing
> my suggestions. Throw at 15:00 - and with every pull she is sliding over to
> 19:00. Pull the clay up through the cylinder -
> she is shearing off enough clay that she might as well be wearing mittens.
> One continuous pull, gently pull away- a frenzy of movements up and off
> Anyway, no improvement. We are having fun, but no pots.
>
> There is no personal problem between us, the contrary we always have a good
> time. I am postive and we try,
> try try again. But nothing is happening here. She is as said not happy that s
> has not to
> date thrown a centered pot, or a pot higher than 3 inches. She asks for advice
> looks at books,
> and certainly is eager to throw.
> I will hang in there with her for as long as she wants to throw.
>
> Question for the teachers on the list:.
> Do I believe one day it will just kick in or
> continue on her tempo and accept that maybe she will not learn it.
> I just wish somehow I could get her to get it together. Both of us would be
> happy.
>
> Alisa in Denmark
> My clay is cold because I am frugal with
> my new heater. I have memories
> of the first electrical bill I got when I moved to
> Florida and used the A/C nonstop for one month.
>
> We have to remember that the majority of adult
> >> students are doing this as an enjoyable, relaxing hobby; they are not going
> >> to be making their living at pottery; they want to make some nice things
> >> that they are happy with, within the limits of their expertise. We can als
> >> help them learn to appreciate "good" pottery, and how it got to be "good",
> >> but if they don't ever achieve that level of "goodness" it isn't our job to
> >> knock them down. Sorry if this sounds like a rant---I get kind of wound up
> >> thinking about some of the horror stories I've heard from students!
> >> A happy New Year to all!
> >> Dai in Kelowna, B.C.
> >>
> >> potterybydai@home.com
> >> I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it left.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Mike Gordon on fri 14 jan 00
Hi,
I teach high school and sometimes run into this kind of problem.I just
walk away and tell them to figure it out for themselves. Then another
student steps in as I knew they would, and explains it in kid terms and
they understand and eventually get it. This is after all the
aformentioned try's. Other times I have them do handbuilding for a week
or two, then go back to throwing. Sometimes the break works. Good luck,
Mike
Jeanne Wood on fri 14 jan 00
Dear Alisa,
snip:
> This post is making me think of an "instructee" I
> have. For a year now it would
> give me nothing but
> sheer pleasure to see her throw something that was
> centered.
I am
> wondering in a way what
> tactic to take to take.
A Junior College class I taught had about 1/2 local
students and 1/2 exchange students from Japan and
Korea.
During one class discussion a Japanese student
beginner told us how frustrated he got trying to
center, how angry he was at the clay, wheel, etc.
I told the class what a friend told me "Unless you are
centered yourself, you cannot center the clay."
Almost in unison the Asian students said "Ahhh!" with
eyes lit up in understanding.
The American students looked skeptical or confused.
The young man in question's throwing did improve
considerably,(but probably due to his hard work.)
Possibly some people can center when they are not
centered themselves. But, it sure seems to flow easier
when you are.
Cheers,
Jeanne W.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Antoinette Badenhorst on sat 15 jan 00
Alisa, your letter reminds me of a student that I had
years ago. I always start beginners on handwork to
make them used to the medium and to try and encourage
them to try the full potential of the clay.
This particular student never made a decent pinch
pot.She ended up with ugly unfinished lines. Even
trying to trim the pieces with a surform blade,she
always ended up with something "not so good." Somehow
I figured that she might do better with square slab
pots.I think she had something to do with maths.These
pots turned out better,but still very skew.
On a different time I had a student that kept on
pinching right through the clay(this often happened
with the very first pot,but it becomes better with
practice). The more I tried to tell her to pinch
firmly,but gently, the more she went right through the
clay.At last I realized that she was tensed to death!
She ended up a friend instead of a potter(this often
happens!)
On another occasion I had a 16 year old student with
the brain potential of 13. She started with the most
terrible pieces. After one year in the studio with
me,her work became "neat". At that stage she had
sewing lessons. She learned to put in a perfect
zipper. The last thing that I heard from her was that
she got a administration job!
I think it has a lot to do with the hand brain
coordination. I know of a person that had much trouble
with geography. They found out that she could not see
corners. She should have had occupational therapy at a
early stage of her life.
This is just me guessing on this subject. Maybe we
have a specialist in this field somewhere in this
group that might bring more light on this.
Antoinette.
--- Alisa and Claus Clausen wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> ------------------
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Lois Ruben Aronow
> Til: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Dato: 12. januar 2000 23:42
> Emne: Re: teaching and critiques
>
>
> This post is making me think of an "instructee" I
> have. For a year now it would
> give me nothing but
> sheer pleasure to see her throw something that was
> centered.
>
> Our studio is an activity center, for the users
> pleasure. No throwing exams, no
> degrees. The idea is that we
> instructors are there to help and advise. So, I am
> wondering in a way what
> tactic to take to take.
> The woman I am writing about has been throwing for a
> year with us and does not
> come further.
> A typical throwing session is her and I, at times my
> hands over hers, at times
> drawings, at times
> verbal instruction, at times I just look or go away
> for a half hour.
>
> The short of it is I learned basic technical aspects
> of throwing because my
> teacher showed me, asked me
> and eventually demanded of me, that I do things a
> certain way while I was very
> early into my education.
> I show this woman what I think basic throwing
> techniques are
> centering
> opening
> pulling
> forming
> top lip
> bottom
> cut off
>
> She is displeased with her efforts, but on the other
> hand shows no sign of
> listening or remembering or implementing
> my suggestions. Throw at 15:00 - and with every
> pull she is sliding over to
> 19:00. Pull the clay up through the cylinder -
> she is shearing off enough clay that she might as
> well be wearing mittens.
> One continuous pull, gently pull away- a frenzy of
> movements up and off
> Anyway, no improvement. We are having fun, but no
> pots.
>
> There is no personal problem between us, the
> contrary we always have a good
> time. I am postive and we try,
> try try again. But nothing is happening here. She
> is as said not happy that she
> has not to
> date thrown a centered pot, or a pot higher than 3
> inches. She asks for advice,
> looks at books,
> and certainly is eager to throw.
> I will hang in there with her for as long as she
> wants to throw.
>
> Question for the teachers on the list:.
> Do I believe one day it will just kick in or
> continue on her tempo and accept that maybe she will
> not learn it.
> I just wish somehow I could get her to get it
> together. Both of us would be
> happy.
>
> Alisa in Denmark
> My clay is cold because I am frugal with
> my new heater. I have memories
> of the first electrical bill I got when I moved to
> Florida and used the A/C nonstop for one month.
>
> We have to remember that the majority of adult
> >> students are doing this as an enjoyable, relaxing
> hobby; they are not going
> >> to be making their living at pottery; they want
> to make some nice things
> >> that they are happy with, within the limits of
> their expertise. We can also
> >> help them learn to appreciate "good" pottery, and
> how it got to be "good",
> >> but if they don't ever achieve that level of
> "goodness" it isn't our job to
> >> knock them down. Sorry if this sounds like a
> rant---I get kind of wound up
> >> thinking about some of the horror stories I've
> heard from students!
> >> A happy New Year to all!
> >> Dai in Kelowna, B.C.
> >>
> >> potterybydai@home.com
> >> I started out with nothing, and I still have most
> of it left.
>
=====
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,Mississippi
38866
Telephone (601) 869-1651
timakia@yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
John Rodgers on mon 17 jan 00
This discussion has brought back memories.
I have been a teacher in public schools, an aircraft mechanic instructor,
and a flying or pilot instructor. I have seen a lot of different kinds of
students come and go. I hope I have helped each of them.
In my flight instructor days, I had students with the touch of a surgeon,
while others controlled the airplane with hands like hams and though they
were driving a D-8 Catapillar Tractor. Even had one student that broke the
handle off the control column. That caused a moment of excitement. Talk
about tense!!!!
When teaching in my clay years...which began 15 years ago and still is the
current stage of life...I learned to have my students go through a few
exercises to get the feel of the material. Mainly, it was kinesthetic and
tactile exercises. We would begin by just playing with a small quantity of
clay in the hands. Roll it into a ball, roll it out into a string, cut it,
crush it, throw it on the table and flatten it, roll it on a piece of
plaster until so much water was gone that it began to crumble, then add tiny
bits of water back until it was workable again, then add to much water, and
make a slurry, then remove the water from the slurry with plaster. Roll it
back into a ball. THEN, make a small pinch pot. Next move on to a little
slab piece. From there the skills grew.
Of all the different approaches, this was the one that seemed to work for me
as an instructor.....and a lot of people that just plain had problems. It
was real joy to watch them grow, and discover what they could do.
John Rodgers
Birmingham, AL
Antoinette Badenhorst wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Alisa, your letter reminds me of a student that I had
> years ago. I always start beginners on handwork to
> make them used to the medium and to try and encourage
> them to try the full potential of the clay.
> This particular student never made a decent pinch
> pot.She ended up with ugly unfinished lines. Even
> trying to trim the pieces with a surform blade,she
> always ended up with something "not so good." Somehow
> I figured that she might do better with square slab
> pots.I think she had something to do with maths.These
> pots turned out better,but still very skew.
> On a different time I had a student that kept on
> pinching right through the clay(this often happened
> with the very first pot,but it becomes better with
> practice). The more I tried to tell her to pinch
> firmly,but gently, the more she went right through the
> clay.At last I realized that she was tensed to death!
> She ended up a friend instead of a potter(this often
> happens!)
> On another occasion I had a 16 year old student with
> the brain potential of 13. She started with the most
> terrible pieces. After one year in the studio with
> me,her work became "neat". At that stage she had
> sewing lessons. She learned to put in a perfect
> zipper. The last thing that I heard from her was that
> she got a administration job!
> I think it has a lot to do with the hand brain
> coordination. I know of a person that had much trouble
> with geography. They found out that she could not see
> corners. She should have had occupational therapy at a
> early stage of her life.
> This is just me guessing on this subject. Maybe we
> have a specialist in this field somewhere in this
> group that might bring more light on this.
> Antoinette.
> --- Alisa and Claus Clausen wrote:
> > ----------------------------Original
> > message----------------------------
> > ------------------
> >
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: Lois Ruben Aronow
> > Til: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> > Dato: 12. januar 2000 23:42
> > Emne: Re: teaching and critiques
> >
> >
> > This post is making me think of an "instructee" I
> > have. For a year now it would
> > give me nothing but
> > sheer pleasure to see her throw something that was
> > centered.
> >
> > Our studio is an activity center, for the users
> > pleasure. No throwing exams, no
> > degrees. The idea is that we
> > instructors are there to help and advise. So, I am
> > wondering in a way what
> > tactic to take to take.
> > The woman I am writing about has been throwing for a
> > year with us and does not
> > come further.
> > A typical throwing session is her and I, at times my
> > hands over hers, at times
> > drawings, at times
> > verbal instruction, at times I just look or go away
> > for a half hour.
> >
> > The short of it is I learned basic technical aspects
> > of throwing because my
> > teacher showed me, asked me
> > and eventually demanded of me, that I do things a
> > certain way while I was very
> > early into my education.
> > I show this woman what I think basic throwing
> > techniques are
> > centering
> > opening
> > pulling
> > forming
> > top lip
> > bottom
> > cut off
> >
> > She is displeased with her efforts, but on the other
> > hand shows no sign of
> > listening or remembering or implementing
> > my suggestions. Throw at 15:00 - and with every
> > pull she is sliding over to
> > 19:00. Pull the clay up through the cylinder -
> > she is shearing off enough clay that she might as
> > well be wearing mittens.
> > One continuous pull, gently pull away- a frenzy of
> > movements up and off
> > Anyway, no improvement. We are having fun, but no
> > pots.
> >
> > There is no personal problem between us, the
> > contrary we always have a good
> > time. I am postive and we try,
> > try try again. But nothing is happening here. She
> > is as said not happy that she
> > has not to
> > date thrown a centered pot, or a pot higher than 3
> > inches. She asks for advice,
> > looks at books,
> > and certainly is eager to throw.
> > I will hang in there with her for as long as she
> > wants to throw.
> >
> > Question for the teachers on the list:.
> > Do I believe one day it will just kick in or
> > continue on her tempo and accept that maybe she will
> > not learn it.
> > I just wish somehow I could get her to get it
> > together. Both of us would be
> > happy.
> >
> > Alisa in Denmark
> > My clay is cold because I am frugal with
> > my new heater. I have memories
> > of the first electrical bill I got when I moved to
> > Florida and used the A/C nonstop for one month.
> >
> > We have to remember that the majority of adult
> > >> students are doing this as an enjoyable, relaxing
> > hobby; they are not going
> > >> to be making their living at pottery; they want
> > to make some nice things
> > >> that they are happy with, within the limits of
> > their expertise. We can also
> > >> help them learn to appreciate "good" pottery, and
> > how it got to be "good",
> > >> but if they don't ever achieve that level of
> > "goodness" it isn't our job to
> > >> knock them down. Sorry if this sounds like a
> > rant---I get kind of wound up
> > >> thinking about some of the horror stories I've
> > heard from students!
> > >> A happy New Year to all!
> > >> Dai in Kelowna, B.C.
> > >>
> > >> potterybydai@home.com
> > >> I started out with nothing, and I still have most
> > of it left.
> >
>
> =====
> Antoinette Badenhorst
> PO Box 552
> Saltillo,Mississippi
> 38866
> Telephone (601) 869-1651
> timakia@yahoo.com
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
Tom Wirt on mon 17 jan 00
Alisa....
Maybe some people are taught just to imitate. They have not been taught to
believe that they can think and analyze and correct for themselves. And
that the answers they come to are as OK as someone else's answers. When I
first started clay, John suggested that when things go wrong, look at the
clay, think about what you were doing and the clay will SHOW you the answer
to your problem.....it's all indelibly there. But you have to look, see and
analyze...not a series the education systems in most areas are very good at
teaching.
Also, when I frist took sumi-e, the teacher would come over, hold the brush
above my hand, and make the strokes telling me just to relax and feel how
the brush moved. There's an aticle in this month's Pottery Making Ilust.
about
teaching throwing which mentions the same technique. And I've tried it in
throwing clay and it does work. Putting your hands over the students,
teaches them the moves and amount of pressure and what the clay feels like
moving.
And then there are those who just won't get it.....some things shouldn't be
fought. Maybe, as you suggest, she just wants the fun and attention and is
diappointed in the pots only because she's expected to be disappointed in
her mind. If she throws a good pot, the attention will lessen. As Ayn Rand
put it, when you think you're faced with a paradox, check your premises.
Tom Wirt
WHew536674@cs.com on tue 18 jan 00
I think we have to face the fact now and then, that not everyone can work
with clay well, and do the best we can with them. I had a strange experience
last spring with a fellow that could not wedge clay! I showed him over and
over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept doing
it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right way. It
was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen anything
quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually gave
up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the wheel.
There are some left brain things in life that I'm sure some instructor would
be pulling out their hair with me, but I have enough sense to stay away from
math and related subjects as much as possible. Everyone is different.
Joyce A
Antoinette Badenhorst on wed 19 jan 00
You know Tom,somehow your letter reminded me of
something that I noticed years ago when I was in
nursing school. Students that done the diploma in
nursing learned why they need to clean a wound in a
certain way(at that stage from the inside to the
outside)Certificate students only learned the method
of cleaning a wound,with no reason why. Diploma
students kept on doing it the right way,but I often
caught certificate students doing it the wrong way. Is
it not true that insight in something brings
understanding and control?
Antoinette.
--- Tom Wirt wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> Alisa....
>
> Maybe some people are taught just to imitate. They
> have not been taught to
> believe that they can think and analyze and correct
> for themselves. And
> that the answers they come to are as OK as someone
> else's answers. When I
> first started clay, John suggested that when things
> go wrong, look at the
> clay, think about what you were doing and the clay
> will SHOW you the answer
> to your problem.....it's all indelibly there. But
> you have to look, see and
> analyze...not a series the education systems in most
> areas are very good at
> teaching.
>
> Also, when I frist took sumi-e, the teacher would
> come over, hold the brush
> above my hand, and make the strokes telling me just
> to relax and feel how
> the brush moved. There's an aticle in this month's
> Pottery Making Ilust.
> about
> teaching throwing which mentions the same technique.
> And I've tried it in
> throwing clay and it does work. Putting your hands
> over the students,
> teaches them the moves and amount of pressure and
> what the clay feels like
> moving.
>
> And then there are those who just won't get
> it.....some things shouldn't be
> fought. Maybe, as you suggest, she just wants the
> fun and attention and is
> diappointed in the pots only because she's expected
> to be disappointed in
> her mind. If she throws a good pot, the attention
> will lessen. As Ayn Rand
> put it, when you think you're faced with a paradox,
> check your premises.
>
> Tom Wirt
>
=====
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,Mississippi
38866
Telephone (601) 869-1651
timakia@yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
John Rodgers on wed 19 jan 00
I wonder about this sort of thing. I have seen it before. Somehow, I can't quite
agree that some can and some can't. It may appear there are some that can't, but
in my experience in teaching...and I have really had some variety in teaching
experience....all the way from teaching little kids in formal classrooms in
traditional education to working with blue collar workers in the trades who like
me saw age 50 some time ago....I feel that the real problem when a student is
having a problem, is that the material being taught is not being presented in
just the right way so that the student can make the connection. In each step in
the learning process, a student must have a moment of insight in order for the
lesson to be learned. The light must turn on! If this does not happen he/she is
not going to get it. Once that insight occurs, learning is achieved. This does
not mean they are going to be experts...just that they will improve from where
they are before the moment of insight. A teachers job is to try and figure out
how to get the message across. Humans being as individual as we are, each have
our own way of perceiving something, and gaining insight. And teachers just have
to figure that out for each and every student. Most students follow some kind of
learning norm, which makes it easier for the teacher, but others don't, and thos
are the ones we really have to study carfully to see how to best make the
learning experience a productive one. And the further off the norm a person is
with their perceptions, the more studious we must be to get the lesson across.
I once had a student pilot that all the other instructors gave up on. The man
tried and tried. The instructor pilots tried and tried. He was despararte to fly
that airplane solo - that is - by himself. But the man didn't get it. He simply
could not get a grip on the sensory and kinesthetic feelings and sense of timing
necessary to control that airplane by himself. I worked with him 6 hours. At the
end of the runway, at the end of the 6th hour, I had him stop the airplane. I
signed his log book "OK to Solo", got out of the airplane, and said as I closed
the door, "Do me proud!"
I stood on the end of that runway. The moment of truth had arrived for him and
me. had I presented everyting to him in a way that he understood. Did he perceiv
every thing I tried to teach him in a way that he could manage the airplane
without crashing. Ibeleived it to be so. And I watched him do three absolutely
perfect touch-and-go landings.
I walked the short distance back to the hangar, while he taxied in and parked th
airplane. In the grand tradition back in those days, with a magic marker I
scrawled on the back of his shirt, above and below, "On this day, ..19**, John
Doe did solo fly Cessna #*****". I signed my name and Certificate number on his
shirt. Then I proceeded to cut the back of his shirt out at the seams from botto
to to top by the collar, cut it in half, gave him the part with the shirt-tail o
it and tacked the other half on the wall in the flight shack. Everybody clapped.
He was the happiest man alive!!! That was one fine day!!!
He never flew again.
That is the way of it. Presented in the right way, he got it. But he also
realized it was not his cup of tea. Going around that field right by himself,
knowing that he had arrived, but also realizing the tremendous responsibility
involved, he made his decision.He could fly, but he would never be really good a
it, and there was a tremendous responsibility to his family and neighbors to sta
on the ground, and not endanger anyone or jeapordize their future, especially
that of his family.
So insight is the key, both in the presentation and in the learning, and in what
to do with the understanding of the new knowledge.
And it is unique for each of us.
John Rodgers
Birmingham, AL
WHew536674@cs.com wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I think we have to face the fact now and then, that not everyone can work
> with clay well, and do the best we can with them. I had a strange experience
> last spring with a fellow that could not wedge clay! I showed him over and
> over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept doing
> it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right way. It
> was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen anything
> quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually gave
> up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the wheel.
> There are some left brain things in life that I'm sure some instructor would
> be pulling out their hair with me, but I have enough sense to stay away from
> math and related subjects as much as possible. Everyone is different.
> Joyce A
Don & Isao Morrill on wed 19 jan 00
At 09:40 1/18/00 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I think we have to face the fact now and then, that not everyone can work
>with clay well, and do the best we can with them. I had a strange experience
>last spring with a fellow that could not wedge clay! I showed him over and
>over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept doing
>it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right way. It
>was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen anything
>quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually gave
>up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the wheel.
>There are some left brain things in life that I'm sure some instructor would
>be pulling out their hair with me, but I have enough sense to stay away from
>math and related subjects as much as possible. Everyone is different.
>Joyce A
> Well,I've seen much arrogance but tis beats all. "He won't do
it right" ? I know of at least five methods of wedgeing clay,not including
pugging. Which is the "Right" way? Suppose one simply cuts a piece of clay
from the box and throws it? What if it suits one to wedge the clay on the
wheel?
I expect such methods are not 'right' and you "gave-up."
don m.
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
Earl Brunner on thu 20 jan 00
I almost wrote in that I disagreed. I am a teacher by profession, and I think a
good one. I know that I am a good pottery technique teacher. So I started to g
my dander up. I tend to get a little tired of the blame always getting dumped o
the teacher. But I thought of something. At the art center where I teach for
example there are variables that I can't control. Class meets for 2 hours, one
night per week for ten weeks. Cost with all materials (student buys tools) is
about $80.00 U.S. Clay and glazes are provided. On the surface this is a barga
(incidentally I would be interested in what other art centers charge for compara
service.) however, there is no open studio time for practice. The director dec
about a year ago to charge $160.00 for registration in the 4 hour open studio
block No teacher. Advanced students will pay it, but most beginners will not.
I maintain that even if it might be theoretically possible to get some of these
apparently non talented individuals up to a mediocre level it probably isn't goi
to happen under these kinds of conditions. I don't care if you are Houdini. And
bother? As a pilot instructor you gave the guy the basic skills to take off and
land. Enough for him to know that he didn't have what it took to keep flying.
quit because he knew it wasn't going to be fun, and he was a hazard to others.
different level, some potter wannabes can and should come to the same conclusion
It's not going get fun for them, they are never going to be more than mediocre,
it is just more effort than it's worth. Are you saying that it is our job to he
them become competent potters or to understand their lack of skill and limitatio
Some of them just can't *see*. We could send them all to you I guess.
John Rodgers wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I wonder about this sort of thing. I have seen it before. Somehow, I can't qui
> agree that some can and some can't. It may appear there are some that can't, b
> in my experience in teaching...and I have really had some variety in teaching
> experience....all the way from teaching little kids in formal classrooms in
> traditional education to working with blue collar workers in the trades who li
> me saw age 50 some time ago....I feel that the real problem when a student is
> having a problem, is that the material being taught is not being presented in
> just the right way so that the student can make the connection. In each step
> the learning process, a student must have a moment of insight in order for the
> lesson to be learned. The light must turn on! If this does not happen he/she i
> not going to get it. Once that insight occurs, learning is achieved. This does
> not mean they are going to be experts...just that they will improve from where
> they are before the moment of insight. A teachers job is to try and figure out
> how to get the message across. Humans being as individual as we are, each have
> our own way of perceiving something, and gaining insight. And teachers just ha
> to figure that out for each and every student. Most students follow some kind
> learning norm, which makes it easier for the teacher, but others don't, and th
> are the ones we really have to study carfully to see how to best make the
> learning experience a productive one. And the further off the norm a person is
> with their perceptions, the more studious we must be to get the lesson across.
>
> I once had a student pilot that all the other instructors gave up on. The man
> tried and tried. The instructor pilots tried and tried. He was despararte to f
> that airplane solo - that is - by himself. But the man didn't get it. He simpl
> could not get a grip on the sensory and kinesthetic feelings and sense of timi
> necessary to control that airplane by himself. I worked with him 6 hours. At t
> end of the runway, at the end of the 6th hour, I had him stop the airplane. I
> signed his log book "OK to Solo", got out of the airplane, and said as I close
> the door, "Do me proud!"
>
> I stood on the end of that runway. The moment of truth had arrived for him and
> me. had I presented everyting to him in a way that he understood. Did he perce
> every thing I tried to teach him in a way that he could manage the airplane
> without crashing. Ibeleived it to be so. And I watched him do three absolutely
> perfect touch-and-go landings.
>
> I walked the short distance back to the hangar, while he taxied in and parked
> airplane. In the grand tradition back in those days, with a magic marker I
> scrawled on the back of his shirt, above and below, "On this day, ..19**, John
> Doe did solo fly Cessna #*****". I signed my name and Certificate number on h
> shirt. Then I proceeded to cut the back of his shirt out at the seams from bot
> to to top by the collar, cut it in half, gave him the part with the shirt-tail
> it and tacked the other half on the wall in the flight shack. Everybody clappe
> He was the happiest man alive!!! That was one fine day!!!
>
> He never flew again.
>
> That is the way of it. Presented in the right way, he got it. But he also
> realized it was not his cup of tea. Going around that field right by himself,
> knowing that he had arrived, but also realizing the tremendous responsibility
> involved, he made his decision.He could fly, but he would never be really good
> it, and there was a tremendous responsibility to his family and neighbors to s
> on the ground, and not endanger anyone or jeapordize their future, especially
> that of his family.
>
> So insight is the key, both in the presentation and in the learning, and in wh
> to do with the understanding of the new knowledge.
>
> And it is unique for each of us.
>
> John Rodgers
> Birmingham, AL
>
> WHew536674@cs.com wrote:
>
> > ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> > I think we have to face the fact now and then, that not everyone can work
> > with clay well, and do the best we can with them. I had a strange experienc
> > last spring with a fellow that could not wedge clay! I showed him over and
> > over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept doing
> > it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right way. I
> > was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen anything
> > quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually gave
> > up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the wheel.
> > There are some left brain things in life that I'm sure some instructor would
> > be pulling out their hair with me, but I have enough sense to stay away from
> > math and related subjects as much as possible. Everyone is different.
> > Joyce A
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on thu 20 jan 00
I think that the thing that bothers me the most about this post is the fact that
the student never made it to the wheel. I don't even teach/expect good
wedging out of my beginners. I wedge their clay for the first two sessions.
I want them to have good wedged clay to start with. not something that
has more air put into it. don't get me wrong, I demonstrate a variety of
wedging methods, and consistently use one method in front of them, but
I know that if they cant get the knack of spiral wedging they can cut and
slap and still end up with wedged clay. Why would wedging, especially
a specific way be a prerequisite to throwing? I have much more of a
problem when I tell the ladies that, No, it isn't just a suggestion that you
will need short fingernails to learn throwing on the wheel. I've had many
try to prove me wrong on that, none have yet.
>
> At 09:40 1/18/00 EST, you wrote:
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I showed him over and
> >over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept doing
> >it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right way. It
> >was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen anything
> >quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually gave
> >up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the wheel.
> >Joyce A
> >
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Earl Brunner on thu 20 jan 00
I showed him over and >over again how to do it, then the students
in the class tried, he kept doing it backwards and couldn't seem to
control himself to do it the right way.
>Joyce A
Doing it backwards? What's backwards? I learned spiral wedging
standing acrossed the table from the person I was learning from.
Guess what. I do it mirror image backwards from the way he did.
Still wedges clay.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Pamala Browne on sun 23 jan 00
My messages come in order of the last posts first and when I read the one
from Elizabeth and the dragon -lady nails, I thought " oh goody here's one I
can reply to--I have long nails ,too ! "
Then I read on and found the post from Earl saying that you should cut
them short to LEARN how to throw on the wheel . I had to admit that I
agree to that . I kept mine short for about a year when I was learning .
When I had them long ( I have to insert here that they are acrylics and they
hold up Great ! ), there were just too many nicks and gouges and opening was
the worst ! Now however , they do not get in my way -- ever . Beginning
students always ask me "How can you throw with those things ? " or worse
, when the women who don't want to cut theirs complain to one of the
instructors " But Pamala has long nails! "
It's funny , the ones who don't cut them get frustrated and
usually give up. It is possible to have long nails and throw .But ladies ,
cut them while you are learning . pamalab
----- Original Message -----
From: Earl Brunner
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Sv: Re: teaching and critiques
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I think that the thing that bothers me the most about this post is the
fact that
> the student never made it to the wheel. I don't even teach/expect good
> wedging out of my beginners. I wedge their clay for the first two
sessions.
> I want them to have good wedged clay to start with. not something that
> has more air put into it. don't get me wrong, I demonstrate a variety of
> wedging methods, and consistently use one method in front of them, but
> I know that if they cant get the knack of spiral wedging they can cut and
> slap and still end up with wedged clay. Why would wedging, especially
> a specific way be a prerequisite to throwing? I have much more of a
> problem when I tell the ladies that, No, it isn't just a suggestion that
you
> will need short fingernails to learn throwing on the wheel. I've had many
> try to prove me wrong on that, none have yet.
>
> >
> > At 09:40 1/18/00 EST, you wrote:
> > >----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
> > I showed him over and
> > >over again how to do it, then the students in the class tried, he kept
doing
> > >it backwards and couldn't seem to control himself to do it the right
way. It
> > >was like the mind and hand would not connect. I had never seen
anything
> > >quite like it (and hope I never do again), but we tried. He eventually
gave
> > >up. I shuddered to think what he would do if he ever made it to the
wheel.
> > >Joyce A
> > >
>
> --
> Earl Brunner
> http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
> mailto:bruec@anv.net
Alisa and Claus Clausen on mon 24 jan 00
------------------
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Richard Ramirez =3CR12396=40aol.com=3E
Til: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Dato: 21. januar 2000 19:19
Emne: Re: teaching and critiques
=3E----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3EAlisa,
=3EEnjoyed reading your post. I'm sure your schooling in occupational =
therapy
=3Egrad school must of given you some insight on narrowing on some of the
=3Eproblems students of clay have.
=3E What I really like is some of that insight. Are there any books or
=3Eresources that you could suggest. Thanks kindly, Richard G. Ramirez
Dear Richard,
I thank you for your post, however, you must have confused a part of someone
else's post with mine=21 I have no masters in occupational therapy. I do =
have a
BFA in ceramics (studied at 3 universities, giving me the opportunity to =
work
alongside some of the greats and the unknown greats) and have worked as an
apprentice to ceramists. I also worked five years at the Metropolitan =
Museum,
both as a craftsperson and as a research assistant. As important as my
=22technical=22 background, I sailed around the world five times, so I have =
some
culture experinces in my pockets. My insights come only from the =
experiences I
have culled from the many people and cultures I have met along the way
(inadvoidably helping to shape my own person). Now in my role as =
instructor, I
continue to observe and try to understand (and help and draw out if needed =
and
wanted) the mindscapes I experience.
Unfortunately I have no texts to offer, but I am sure if you address this =
again
to the list, there are many texts you can find.
Best regards,
Alisa in Denmark
| |
|
