mel jacobson on tue 25 jan 00
i have posted a similar post before, and it is always
up for being bashed, but hell, as my friend vince say's
`it's a load of crap`.....(not being passionate about what you do)
hand building is the most difficult of clay processes.
coil is the most difficult.
go to mata ortiz and watch them handbuild, you will
know what i mean.
sure you can snap up some coils, but to do it well.
perfect. almost impossible.
children see that, and know their stuff wiggles, looks funny.
slabs well made, perfect...clean...very difficult.
but, simple lessons on the wheel to most kids past
12 is pretty easy.
they understand the machine, (as most modern kids do)
they seem to approach it like a car....not at all frightened.
high school kids run with it like a dream.
and then i would let them graduate to hand building, on their
own time, as the need came along.....would demonstrate
all the time...show them simple ideas.
i have a wonderful trick pot, works all the time...huge
success....it is a slab rolled in paper towel or newsprint../
tall bottle shape.....throw a neck and attach, then roll
the entire thing on the floor...get it to be round and nice.
stand it up....bingo...bottle. dannon's bunch made hundreds
of them a few years back...she was really tired of bottles in the kiln.
anyway...the wheel is great starter, catches them, gets them excited.
then they can move on to hundreds of other things to be made of
clay...of course, i am a thrower, so it is easy for me to teach that.
but, without question, handbuilding is for careful, talented, well
skilled folks.....i admire them.
mel/mn
my daughter at about 11 or so made house numbers from both
white and brown clay, used big cookie cutter numbers. after a sale
she would count up...`one buck each, let's see dad, you own me
one hundred and twenty six dollars.`....she was good. (damn good
house numbers too, last forever)
http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
Anji Henderson on wed 26 jan 00
I don't think I have read the "similar post" But I do
so agree.. I was taught the traditional way (pinch,
coil, slab, wheel) And then later (after much time on
the wheel) decided that I should integrate.. After
much time integrating, I decided that I need to make a
compete coil form.. WOW I was amazed.. The centering
and understanding of centering from the wheel helped
tremendously with keeping the form round..
I started teaching my son the wheel recently and of
course started with the wheel.. Two reasons made me
decide this.. 1. The realization that I had, and 2.
knowing the kid and knowing that if he worked on a
handbuilt form for a week and it went wrong, he is the
type that would just bag the whole idea.. So, if he
had some success under his belt some failures would
not be a detrimental from his point of view....
Anji
--- mel jacobson wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> i have posted a similar post before, and it is
> always
> up for being bashed, but hell, as my friend vince
> say's
> `it's a load of crap`.....(not being passionate
> about what you do)
>
> hand building is the most difficult of clay
> processes.
> coil is the most difficult.
>
> go to mata ortiz and watch them handbuild, you will
> know what i mean.
>
> sure you can snap up some coils, but to do it well.
> perfect. almost impossible.
>
> children see that, and know their stuff wiggles,
> looks funny.
>
> slabs well made, perfect...clean...very difficult.
>
> but, simple lessons on the wheel to most kids past
> 12 is pretty easy.
>
> they understand the machine, (as most modern kids
> do)
> they seem to approach it like a car....not at all
> frightened.
>
> high school kids run with it like a dream.
>
> and then i would let them graduate to hand building,
> on their
> own time, as the need came along.....would
> demonstrate
> all the time...show them simple ideas.
>
> i have a wonderful trick pot, works all the
> time...huge
> success....it is a slab rolled in paper towel or
> newsprint../
> tall bottle shape.....throw a neck and attach, then
> roll
> the entire thing on the floor...get it to be round
> and nice.
> stand it up....bingo...bottle. dannon's bunch made
> hundreds
> of them a few years back...she was really tired of
> bottles in the kiln.
>
> anyway...the wheel is great starter, catches them,
> gets them excited.
> then they can move on to hundreds of other things to
> be made of
> clay...of course, i am a thrower, so it is easy for
> me to teach that.
> but, without question, handbuilding is for careful,
> talented, well
> skilled folks.....i admire them.
>
> mel/mn
>
> my daughter at about 11 or so made house numbers
> from both
> white and brown clay, used big cookie cutter
> numbers. after a sale
> she would count up...`one buck each, let's see dad,
> you own me
> one hundred and twenty six dollars.`....she was
> good. (damn good
> house numbers too, last forever)
>
>
>
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
> from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
>
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Earl Brunner on wed 26 jan 00
I agree with Mel here. To be good at hand building it takes as much effort
and learning of skills as on the wheel. Just because you can roll a coil,
doesn't mean you can make good pots any more than being able to center on
the wheel. If the aim in any construction method is quality, then it's
going to take just as much work or even more hand building.
I think that people think that it is easier, but I also think that that is
deceptive. This has been argued before, but we get back to it over and over
again. I believe that one of the main reasons wheel work is de-emphasized
in so many programs is because the instructors have never mastered the
skills of throwing well, they have gone this hand building route themselves
and never paid the price to be good on the wheel, so they play it down in
favor of various hand building methods.
A good hand builder doesn't need to throw and a good thrower doesn't need to
hand build. A three dimensional artist doesn't need to be a two dimensional
artist any more than a two dimensional artist needs to be a three
dimensional artist. I don't have to be a good bronze casting sculptor to
make pots on the wheel. I just need to be good on the wheel. I need to be
the best I can at what ever it is I endeavor to do.
mel jacobson wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> i have posted a similar post before, and it is always
> up for being bashed, but hell, as my friend vince say's
> `it's a load of crap`.....(not being passionate about what you do)
>
> hand building is the most difficult of clay processes.
> coil is the most difficult.
>
> go to mata ortiz and watch them handbuild, you will
> know what i mean.
>
> sure you can snap up some coils, but to do it well.
> perfect. almost impossible.
>
> children see that, and know their stuff wiggles, looks funny.
>
> slabs well made, perfect...clean...very difficult.
>
> but, simple lessons on the wheel to most kids past
> 12 is pretty easy.
>
> they understand the machine, (as most modern kids do)
> they seem to approach it like a car....not at all frightened.
>
> high school kids run with it like a dream.
>
> and then i would let them graduate to hand building, on their
> own time, as the need came along.....would demonstrate
> all the time...show them simple ideas.
>
> i have a wonderful trick pot, works all the time...huge
> success....it is a slab rolled in paper towel or newsprint../
> tall bottle shape.....throw a neck and attach, then roll
> the entire thing on the floor...get it to be round and nice.
> stand it up....bingo...bottle. dannon's bunch made hundreds
> of them a few years back...she was really tired of bottles in the kiln.
>
> anyway...the wheel is great starter, catches them, gets them excited.
> then they can move on to hundreds of other things to be made of
> clay...of course, i am a thrower, so it is easy for me to teach that.
> but, without question, handbuilding is for careful, talented, well
> skilled folks.....i admire them.
>
> mel/mn
>
> my daughter at about 11 or so made house numbers from both
> white and brown clay, used big cookie cutter numbers. after a sale
> she would count up...`one buck each, let's see dad, you own me
> one hundred and twenty six dollars.`....she was good. (damn good
> house numbers too, last forever)
>
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots (website)
> from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
mailto:bruec@anv.net
Louise on wed 26 jan 00
I prefer handbuilding over throwing. I have a housefull of favourite
potter's pieces. Drink from a different tea bowl everyday. It feels like
the potter has come for a visit that morning. Discovered hard slabs, my
whole world opened up with clay. I started out making masks and rattles.
Still make rattles, Mel has one. But there was something about those hard
slabs that attracted me. Wanting to challenge the clay to stand straight up
26" - 33" high. Wanting to make the clay become squareish, tall cylinder
like sculptures, rather than something round, like clay often likes to do.
Teach seven and eight year olds who also work with hard slabs and loving
it. Of course they are encouraged to create whatever they want but learn
the technical aspects of putting together hard slabs. Never had a problem
with any of them wanting to learn hand building first. They have no choice
I don't throw and so neither do they. Have potter friends who do teach
throwing for children, so they do have them available should they want to
experience throwing. One student, nine years old, has been commissioned to
make two hard slab pieces. Typical artist though, has made his clients wait
for several months until he felt like making them. They waited, he's made
one so far.
I admire throwers. It always leaves me breathless when a bowl is thrown
from the hump, the walls are perfectly even, the lip is gracious and the
foot has a sense of poise. It's cut from the wheel and sits on a bat with a
life of it's own, amazing.
Your're right about the coils Mel, they are difficult to make and work
with. Tried that too, became too frustrated went running back to the hard
slabs.
Whatever takes you home and makes you happy I say. Working with clay is a
privilge all on it's own!
Louise from still rainy Steveston. Had to cancel sawdust firing not the
right wind tonight.
Vince Pitelka on thu 27 jan 00
>I agree with Mel here. To be good at hand building it takes as much effort
>and learning of skills as on the wheel. Just because you can roll a coil,
>doesn't mean you can make good pots any more than being able to center on
>the wheel.
I have to put in two-cents-worth here. I was a professional studio potter
for ten years in Blue Lake, California before I went to graduate school and
became a teacher. In undergraduate school I never learned how to handbuild.
We only worked on the wheel. As a professional potter I never did any
handbuilding at all. When I got into graduate school I began handbuilding
with a vengeance, because I wanted to explore everything I hadn't done
previously. Soon after that I started teaching my ancient clay workshops,
which focus on ancient and tribal handbuilding methods.
I have always taught handbuilding as the introductory clay course, because I
can get students making decent forms using the pinch and coil construction
methods much more quickly than on the wheel. I can get them fired up about
clay almost immediately in handbuilding. Some teachers can accomplish the
same on the wheel, and I commend them. One of the first projects I have my
intro students do is a life-size head-and-shoulders bust. They have a great
time at it, and it gives them a real sense of accomplishment. Early on in
the semester we also do polished terra sig on a few pinch pots and coil pots
and bonfire them. A little later in the semester we do soft slab and stiff
slab construction, and I reserve that for later because I find it is much
easier for them to learn coil and pinch construction.
I do not believe that art departments have abandoned wheel throwing because
the faculty do not know how to throw pots. I believe they have abandoned
the wheel because of pressure from the studio faculty in other media areas,
who essentially attempt to invalidate what they see as a tool of functional
craft. There are plenty of university faculty out there who are perfectly
capable of making good pots, but who teach in departments with no wheels.
It is evident that the number of people nationwide who can make good
wheel-thrown pots vastly exceeds the number that can make good coil-built
pots. I believe the reason for this is that there are so few people who are
teaching handbuilding in a competent and comprehensive fashion.
I am also surprised by the notion that a wheel-thrower does not know how to
handbuild. This is a rather bizarre notion. There is no potter who would
not benefit greatly by a greater ability in handbuilding. When you put a
handle on a mug or pitcher, you are handbuilding. When you throw components
and assemble them to make a teapot or other multi-part vessel, you are
handbuilding. The more process and technique you have at your disposal, the
greater potential to make good work. It is not absolutely necessary to know
handbuilding to make good wheel-thrown pots, but it will certainly increase
the likelihood of good pots.
I shall now gracefully (I hope) step off my soapbox. Thanks for listening.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Edward Wright on thu 27 jan 00
------------------
it makes no difference whether one starts wheel throwing or handbuilding.
some people start with the technology of the wheel, the 'instantly' =
recogizable
shape of the bowl and the cup, so that's what the go to first.
some people start with the coil because they did it in grade school and they
remember the joy of that experience.
some people start with the slab because they think they lack 'coordination' =
and
the slab roller makes something flat and nice quickly.
regardless of the technique that interests you, to learn clay one first =
needs to
become familiar with the characteristics of clay:
the way clay takes a mark=3B slip, shrink, leather hard, bone dry, fire, =
crack,
etc.
this only happens through failure.
whether your goal has no goal or you want to work to be part of the =
ubitquitous
beauty of vernacular objects or the rarified ideas that have a framework of
clay.
only through failure will you go.
make it again
make it again
make it again
make it again
one of the more difficult things to get through is that failure is a bad =
thing.
it is really hard to transform the negative energy that comes from failing =
and
turn it into positive energy.
and make it again
Edward Wright
Chris Campbell on fri 28 jan 00
Vince wrote :
"It is evident that the number of people nationwide who can make good
wheel-thrown pots vastly exceeds the number that can make good coil-built
pots. I believe the reason for this is that there are so few people who are
teaching handbuilding in a competent and comprehensive fashion."
I strongly second this thought! I spend most of the Spring searching
through the catalogues from the Crafts Schools looking for instruction in
Hand Building. I started my clay work on the wheel but for the past four
years, 95% of my work is hand built and I am always on the lookout for new
techniques and inspiration. I would like to attend at least one workshop a
year, but they are hard to find and are often taught by the same people I
have already taken from. I often end up in yet another wheel throwing class
simply because I need the contact with potters and will take it where I can
find it.
Yes Vince, this is why I e-mail you looking for where you are teaching
next !! Your classes sound fantastic.
Chris - under a foot of snow that just won't melt in North Carolina and the
only shovel in sight is a clay covered spade.
Marcia Selsor on fri 28 jan 00
I am teaching both wheel throwing and handbuilding in my beginning
classes right now. I have 21 and 23 students in these classes which
means there is only room for them all when they are spread around the
facility on the wheels and on the tables. This is like teaching in a
three ring circus but I have some very advanced students helping me so
we are doing it. I had a student yesterday dit at the wheel for the
first time and throw a nice pot. She is coming to NCECA. She is hooked.
Not everyone can do that. NEWS> I am retiring in 97 days. I will miss
the students but looking forward to sanity. These huge classes are
daetroying my mind.
I have another class with 16 art majors with everything from first
semester to graduate teachers. My budget is $135/year. 97 DAYS!!!!
As for teaching the wheel. Some students really want to learn this. When
they try it and find out how difficult it is, it really engages their
focus. That is good.
Marcia
Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >I agree with Mel here. To be good at hand building it takes as much effort
> >and learning of skills as on the wheel. Just because you can roll a coil,
> >doesn't mean you can make good pots any more than being able to center on
> >the wheel.
>
> I have to put in two-cents-worth here. I was a professional studio potter
> for ten years in Blue Lake, California before I went to graduate school and
> became a teacher. In undergraduate school I never learned how to handbuild.
> We only worked on the wheel. As a professional potter I never did any
> handbuilding at all. When I got into graduate school I began handbuilding
> with a vengeance, because I wanted to explore everything I hadn't done
> previously. Soon after that I started teaching my ancient clay workshops,
> which focus on ancient and tribal handbuilding methods.
>
> I have always taught handbuilding as the introductory clay course, because I
> can get students making decent forms using the pinch and coil construction
> methods much more quickly than on the wheel. I can get them fired up about
> clay almost immediately in handbuilding. Some teachers can accomplish the
> same on the wheel, and I commend them. One of the first projects I have my
> intro students do is a life-size head-and-shoulders bust. They have a great
> time at it, and it gives them a real sense of accomplishment. Early on in
> the semester we also do polished terra sig on a few pinch pots and coil pots
> and bonfire them. A little later in the semester we do soft slab and stiff
> slab construction, and I reserve that for later because I find it is much
> easier for them to learn coil and pinch construction.
>
> I do not believe that art departments have abandoned wheel throwing because
> the faculty do not know how to throw pots. I believe they have abandoned
> the wheel because of pressure from the studio faculty in other media areas,
> who essentially attempt to invalidate what they see as a tool of functional
> craft. There are plenty of university faculty out there who are perfectly
> capable of making good pots, but who teach in departments with no wheels.
> It is evident that the number of people nationwide who can make good
> wheel-thrown pots vastly exceeds the number that can make good coil-built
> pots. I believe the reason for this is that there are so few people who are
> teaching handbuilding in a competent and comprehensive fashion.
>
> I am also surprised by the notion that a wheel-thrower does not know how to
> handbuild. This is a rather bizarre notion. There is no potter who would
> not benefit greatly by a greater ability in handbuilding. When you put a
> handle on a mug or pitcher, you are handbuilding. When you throw components
> and assemble them to make a teapot or other multi-part vessel, you are
> handbuilding. The more process and technique you have at your disposal, the
> greater potential to make good work. It is not absolutely necessary to know
> handbuilding to make good wheel-thrown pots, but it will certainly increase
> the likelihood of good pots.
>
> I shall now gracefully (I hope) step off my soapbox. Thanks for listening.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Home - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
--
Marcia Selsor
selsor@imt.net
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls
http://www.imt.net/~mjbmls/spain99.html
http://www.silverhawk.com/ex99/selsor/welcome.html
Antoinette Badenhorst on sat 29 jan 00
Chris my opinion is that beginners often see hand
building of less value than hand building. I do both
and lately I learned to have an appreciation for
molding in press molds which I create myself.Is it not
true that we often look down on molds! There are so
much more to create if one can use all the different
techniques all together. I guess though some potters
like clay better than others and some will prefer
glazes or painting or firing better. Every potter use
some part of the process as a tool and another part as
the creative factor.Another one will use it just the
opposite way. Is that not wonderful how diverse the
subject is? The problem come in when a teacher only
want to promote his field and then without knowing
that, devalue a certain field that might be a
wonderful world of discovery for someone else.
Antoinette.
--- Chris Campbell wrote:
> ----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
> Vince wrote :
>
> "It is evident that the number of people nationwide
> who can make good
> wheel-thrown pots vastly exceeds the number that can
> make good coil-built
> pots. I believe the reason for this is that there
> are so few people who are
> teaching handbuilding in a competent and
> comprehensive fashion."
>
> I strongly second this thought! I spend most of
> the Spring searching
> through the catalogues from the Crafts Schools
> looking for instruction in
> Hand Building. I started my clay work on the wheel
> but for the past four
> years, 95% of my work is hand built and I am always
> on the lookout for new
> techniques and inspiration. I would like to attend
> at least one workshop a
> year, but they are hard to find and are often taught
> by the same people I
> have already taken from. I often end up in yet
> another wheel throwing class
> simply because I need the contact with potters and
> will take it where I can
> find it.
>
> Yes Vince, this is why I e-mail you looking for
> where you are teaching
> next !! Your classes sound fantastic.
>
> Chris - under a foot of snow that just won't melt in
> North Carolina and the
> only shovel in sight is a clay covered spade.
>
=====
Antoinette Badenhorst
PO Box 552
Saltillo,Mississippi
38866
Telephone (601) 869-1651
timakia@yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
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Mike Gordon on sat 29 jan 00
Marcia,
I envy you.......97days, I'm looking at 3-4 yrs more. I also envy your
class size, I have 11 wheels and 35 kids -HS. 50 min at a time 5 times a
day. Heard em in heard em out! I love it though and have some digital
photos of final day if anybody is interested. I have some brave ones
throw blind folded. Mike Gordon.
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