ACTSNYC@cs.com on mon 14 feb 00
------------------
=3E ---------- Forwarded message ----------
=3E Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:17:41 EST
=3E From: Edouard Bastarache =3Cedouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca=3E
=3E Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
=3E To: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU
=3E Subject: Re: Black Raven
=3E Resent-Subject: Re: Re: Black Raven
=3E ----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E Hello all,
=3E in Hazardous Materials Toxicology by Sullivan =26 Krieger it is said:
=3E =22 There does not seem to be significant dermal absorption, altough
=3E contact dermititis has been reported=22(page 897, last edition).
=3E Lauwerys in =22Toxicologie Industrielle et Intoxications =
professionnelles=22
=3E says:=22En milieu industriel, la principale voie d'entr=E9e du =
mangan=E8se
=3E dans l'organisme est la voie pulmonaire, la voie digestive ne jouant
=3E qu'un r=F4le secondaire=22.Translated to english by =22dear ol' me=22 =
it means:
=3E =22 In the industrial setting, the main route of entry into the body is=
the
=3E pulmonary
=3E one, the digestive one playing only a secondary role=22.There is no =
mention
=3E in his 1999 edition of a skin route of entry.
=3E So, make your pick=21=21=21
=3E Later,
=3E Edouard Bastarache=3E
The first statement is highly qualified, saying =22there does not seem to be
significant absorption=22 and there is no mention of dermal absorption at =
all
in the second. This backs up my feeling that actually there is no data and
the writers have made the same assumption that is made so often with
inorganic metallic compounds.
The presence of dermatitis from manganese mentioned in the first quote also
indicates that there is at least a little absorption into the dermis where a
reaction could occur.
To reiterate for clarity: dermal absorption probably is not a major route.
But how much or how little it contributes to the total body burden of
manganese is not known. And it is better to be accurate about what is known
rather than to say flatly that there is no absorption.
Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., =23 23
NYC NY 10012-2586 212/777-0062
ACTSNYC=40cs.com
Edouard Bastarache on tue 15 feb 00
------------------
Hello all,
i agree with Monona, i checked the literature last weekend,
there is no particular study relating to manganese skin absortion.
But i doubt very much I should oppose Dr.Lauwerys'
opinion since he is believed to be the best occupational toxicologist
in the world at present time.
>From what I know he studied and taught at Harvard before going back
to his country, Belgium, where he teaches at l'Universit=E9 Catholique de
Louvain. He has written many books in both french and english.
I have the last edition of the french version of =22Toxicologie Industrielle
et Intoxications Professionnelles =22 which became available again this =
fall.
Here is the only abstract I found on a possible case of skin absrption=3B
if you read carefully the skin barrier had been =22broken=22 by a
burn:
TITLE: Manganese absorption through a burn.
AUTHORS: Laitung JK=3B Mercer DM
SOURCE: Burns Incl Therm Inj 1983 Nov=3B10(2):145-6
CITATION IDS: PMID: 6652541 UI: 84081547
ABSTRACT: A case of manganese absorption occurring in association with a
burn is presented. We maintain that acute manganese toxicity was a likely
cause of liver dysfunction in our patient.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In =22La Belle Province=22
edouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/=7Eedouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : ACTSNYC=40cs.com =3CACTSNYC=40cs.com=3E
=C0 : CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Date : 14 f=E9vrier, 2000 14:27
Objet : Re: Black Raven (fwd)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
------------------
=3E ---------- Forwarded message ----------
=3E Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:17:41 EST
=3E From: Edouard Bastarache =3Cedouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca=3E
=3E Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
=3E To: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU
=3E Subject: Re: Black Raven
=3E Resent-Subject: Re: Re: Black Raven
=3E ----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E Hello all,
=3E in Hazardous Materials Toxicology by Sullivan =26 Krieger it is said:
=3E =22 There does not seem to be significant dermal absorption, altough
=3E contact dermititis has been reported=22(page 897, last edition).
=3E Lauwerys in =22Toxicologie Industrielle et Intoxications =
professionnelles=22
=3E says:=22En milieu industriel, la principale voie d'entr=E9e du =
mangan=E8se
=3E dans l'organisme est la voie pulmonaire, la voie digestive ne jouant
=3E qu'un r=F4le secondaire=22.Translated to english by =22dear ol' me=22 =
it means:
=3E =22 In the industrial setting, the main route of entry into the body is=
the
=3E pulmonary
=3E one, the digestive one playing only a secondary role=22.There is no =
mention
=3E in his 1999 edition of a skin route of entry.
=3E So, make your pick=21=21=21
=3E Later,
=3E Edouard Bastarache=3E
The first statement is highly qualified, saying =22there does not seem to be
significant absorption=22 and there is no mention of dermal absorption at =
all
in the second. This backs up my feeling that actually there is no data and
the writers have made the same assumption that is made so often with
inorganic metallic compounds.
The presence of dermatitis from manganese mentioned in the first quote also
indicates that there is at least a little absorption into the dermis where a
reaction could occur.
To reiterate for clarity: dermal absorption probably is not a major route.
But how much or how little it contributes to the total body burden of
manganese is not known. And it is better to be accurate about what is known
rather than to say flatly that there is no absorption.
Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., =23 23
NYC NY 10012-2586 212/777-0062
ACTSNYC=40cs.com
ACTSNYC@cs.com on sat 19 feb 00
------------------
=3E ---------- Forwarded message ----------
=3E Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:04:54 EST
=3E From: Edouard Bastarache =3Cedouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca=3E
=3E Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
=3E To: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU
=3E Subject: Re: Black Raven (fwd)
=3E Resent-Subject: Re: Re: Black Raven (fwd)
=3E ----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E Hello all,=3E
=3E i agree with Monona, i checked the literature last weekend,
=3E there is no particular study relating to manganese skin absortion.
=3E
=3E But i doubt very much I should oppose Dr.Lauwerys'
=3E opinion since he is believed to be the best occupational toxicologist
=3E in the world at present time. =3C
I'm not asking you to oppose his opinion. If you look at his statement it
was extremely qualified and not at all dogmatic about skin absorption. I am
agreeing with that opinion, that in comparison with the obviously
significant absorption of organic manganese compounds, the inorganic
compounds are likely to absorb in much less significant amounts if at all.
=3E From what I know he studied and taught at Harvard before going back
=3E to his country, Belgium, where he teaches at l'Universit=E9 Catholique =
de
=3E Louvain. He has written many books in both french and english.
=3E I have the last edition of the french version of =22Toxicologie =
Industrielle
=3E et Intoxications Professionnelles =22 which became available again this
fall. =3C
Appeals to authority don't always count. For over 100 years, all the
authorities in toxicology said that acid insoluble lead frits were nontoxic
and not bioavailable. Now--in legal deposition--the most authoritative
toxicologist specializing in art materials, Dr. Stopford from Duke
University, has admitted he knows today that there is no relationship =
between
acid solubility and bioavailability of lead frits. I had been saying that
for almost 20 years.
I don't care where anyone went to school. I just care that they have
training in the field from any reputable school, have the brains look at the
data without bias, and have to the common sense to evaluate it. And there =
is
no data on manganese skin absorption to evaluate, just as there was no data
on lead absorption until a few years ago. Now we know lead absorbs. Maybe
manganese does to. I really don't know. And neither does the authority you
quote which is clear from his own words.
In the absence of knowledge, common sense dictates a little caution. And
teachers and sellers of manganese must not state unequivocally that =
manganese
does not skin absorb.
=3E Here is the only abstract I found on a possible case of skin =
absrption=3B
=3E if you read carefully the skin barrier had been =22broken=22 by a
=3E burn:
=3E TITLE: Manganese absorption through a burn.
=3E AUTHORS: Laitung JK=3B Mercer DM
=3E SOURCE: Burns Incl Therm Inj 1983 Nov=3B10(2):145-6
=3E CITATION IDS: PMID: 6652541 UI: 84081547
=3E ABSTRACT: A case of manganese absorption occurring in association with=
a
=3E burn is presented. We maintain that acute manganese toxicity was a =
likely
=3E cause of liver dysfunction in our patient.
This is very interesting. I thank you for finding the abstract. It should
also be a =22head's up=22 for potters who have dermatitis, chapped hands, =
cuts,
etc. Broken skin absorbs all kinds of stuff. The best example of this is
boric acid. It used to be a major ingredient in burn treatments until =
people
actually died of boron poisoning in hospitals during treatment. All the
soluble boron compounds will absorb through broken skin and we use some in
pottery too.
Before someone makes my life complicated--as people on Clayart tend to do--I
will answer the question that someone will probably demand an answer to:
=22Why then is boric acid in my eye drops=21=22 Boric acid and sometimes =
other
soluble boron compounds are there in a concentration of about 0.01=25 or so
because boron is a good pesticide/biocide and will help keep bacteria from
growing in the eye solutions. But at 0.01=25 you will not have a toxic =
problem
from the absorption.
There. I think I've covered all the bases. Sorry I was working out of town
and there is such a time lag between posts.
Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., =23 23
NYC NY 10012-1586 212/777-0062
ACTSNYC=40cs.com
Edouard Bastarache on sun 20 feb 00
------------------
Hello all,
It is not Dr.Lauwerys who said:=22 There does not seem to be significant
dermal absorption , altough contact dermatitis has been reported=22
but Gilmore =26 Brontein (page 897) in Hazardous Materials Toxicology
by Sullivan =26 Krieger, last edition.
Dr. Lauwerys just does not mention dermal absorption in the industrial
setting.
I have no reason to doubt Dr. Lauwerys' knowledge and sincerity, not at all.
As for penetration thru =22broken=22 skin barrier we must take into account
depth and surface of wounds to try to guess the severity of potential
absorption.
Now I have pots to trim.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In =22La Belle Province=22
edouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/=7Eedouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : ACTSNYC=40cs.com =3CACTSNYC=40cs.com=3E
=C0 : CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Date : 19 f=E9vrier, 2000 20:17
Objet : Re: Black Raven (fwd)
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
------------------
=3E ---------- Forwarded message ----------
=3E Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:04:54 EST
=3E From: Edouard Bastarache =3Cedouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca=3E
=3E Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
=3E To: CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU
=3E Subject: Re: Black Raven (fwd)
=3E Resent-Subject: Re: Re: Black Raven (fwd)
=3E ----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E Hello all,=3E
=3E i agree with Monona, i checked the literature last weekend,
=3E there is no particular study relating to manganese skin absortion.
=3E
=3E But i doubt very much I should oppose Dr.Lauwerys'
=3E opinion since he is believed to be the best occupational toxicologist
=3E in the world at present time. =3C
I'm not asking you to oppose his opinion. If you look at his statement it
was extremely qualified and not at all dogmatic about skin absorption. I am
agreeing with that opinion, that in comparison with the obviously
significant absorption of organic manganese compounds, the inorganic
compounds are likely to absorb in much less significant amounts if at all.
=3E From what I know he studied and taught at Harvard before going back
=3E to his country, Belgium, where he teaches at l'Universit=E9 Catholique =
de
=3E Louvain. He has written many books in both french and english.
=3E I have the last edition of the french version of =22Toxicologie
Industrielle
=3E et Intoxications Professionnelles =22 which became available again this
fall. =3C
Appeals to authority don't always count. For over 100 years, all the
authorities in toxicology said that acid insoluble lead frits were nontoxic
and not bioavailable. Now--in legal deposition--the most authoritative
toxicologist specializing in art materials, Dr. Stopford from Duke
University, has admitted he knows today that there is no relationship
between
acid solubility and bioavailability of lead frits. I had been saying that
for almost 20 years.
I don't care where anyone went to school. I just care that they have
training in the field from any reputable school, have the brains look at the
data without bias, and have to the common sense to evaluate it. And there
is
no data on manganese skin absorption to evaluate, just as there was no data
on lead absorption until a few years ago. Now we know lead absorbs. Maybe
manganese does to. I really don't know. And neither does the authority you
quote which is clear from his own words.
In the absence of knowledge, common sense dictates a little caution. And
teachers and sellers of manganese must not state unequivocally that
manganese
does not skin absorb.
=3E Here is the only abstract I found on a possible case of skin =
absrption=3B
=3E if you read carefully the skin barrier had been =22broken=22 by a
=3E burn:
=3E TITLE: Manganese absorption through a burn.
=3E AUTHORS: Laitung JK=3B Mercer DM
=3E SOURCE: Burns Incl Therm Inj 1983 Nov=3B10(2):145-6
=3E CITATION IDS: PMID: 6652541 UI: 84081547
=3E ABSTRACT: A case of manganese absorption occurring in association with=
a
=3E burn is presented. We maintain that acute manganese toxicity was a =
likely
=3E cause of liver dysfunction in our patient.
This is very interesting. I thank you for finding the abstract. It should
also be a =22head's up=22 for potters who have dermatitis, chapped hands, =
cuts,
etc. Broken skin absorbs all kinds of stuff. The best example of this is
boric acid. It used to be a major ingredient in burn treatments until
people
actually died of boron poisoning in hospitals during treatment. All the
soluble boron compounds will absorb through broken skin and we use some in
pottery too.
Before someone makes my life complicated--as people on Clayart tend to do--I
will answer the question that someone will probably demand an answer to:
=22Why then is boric acid in my eye drops=21=22 Boric acid and sometimes =
other
soluble boron compounds are there in a concentration of about 0.01=25 or so
because boron is a good pesticide/biocide and will help keep bacteria from
growing in the eye solutions. But at 0.01=25 you will not have a toxic
problem
from the absorption.
There. I think I've covered all the bases. Sorry I was working out of town
and there is such a time lag between posts.
Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., =23 23
NYC NY 10012-1586 212/777-0062
ACTSNYC=40cs.com
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