Stephen Parry-Thomas on tue 14 mar 00
Hi all,
We would like your comments on the following .....
Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted by
many
well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
their work.
Should this happen?
There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is on
the item and so is the decorators.
Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
cheating?
Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work of
that particular potter?
In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
they get 2% each?
We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware for
a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt this
compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters in
our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
issue.
Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
Cantello Studios on wed 15 mar 00
I would tell this person to talk to someone in a slip casting or a jigger
factory. If he needs hand thrown pots tell him to make them himself. I have
been asked this question many times and that's my answer each and every
time. I refuse to prostitute my talents and myself.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU]On Behalf
Of Stephen Parry-Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 11:01 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Authentic work
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi all,
We would like your comments on the following .....
Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted by
many
well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
their work.
Should this happen?
There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is
on
the item and so is the decorators.
Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
cheating?
Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work
of
that particular potter?
In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
they get 2% each?
We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware for
a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt
this
compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters
in
our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
issue.
Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
Stephen Mills on wed 15 mar 00
If you are reproducing his/her shapes well and good, they are using you
as they would someone working for them in their own workshop. They are
employing your abilities. If, however, the potter concerned is buying
YOUR shapes to sell as they're own that's definitely NOT ON!
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
In message , Stephen Parry-Thomas writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hi all,
>We would like your comments on the following .....
>
>Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted by
>many
>well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
>potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
>their work.
>Should this happen?
>There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
>sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
>working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
>We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is on
>the item and so is the decorators.
>
>Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
>cheating?
>Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
>Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work of
>that particular potter?
>In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
>and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
>artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
>they get 2% each?
>
>We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware for
>a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
>in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt this
>compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters in
>our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
>situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
>issue.
>
>
>Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
>www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
>
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home e-mail: stevemills@mudslinger.demon.co.uk
work e-mail: stevemills@bathpotters.demon.co.uk
own website: http://www.mudslinger.demon.co.uk
BPS website: http://www.bathpotters.demon.co.uk
Tel: **44 (0)1225 311699
Fax: **44 (0)870 0526466
Richard Jeffery on wed 15 mar 00
Stick with it. Doesn't the loss of your identity or involvement have
something to do with the difference between craft and industry? Maybe I'm
being naive, and for some people it's the commercial imperative that will
decide.
The other factor in this is the transparency of the operation to the
customer - assuming they care.
Richard
Bournemouth
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU]On Behalf
Of Stephen Parry-Thomas
Sent: 14 March 2000 19:01
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Authentic work
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi all,
We would like your comments on the following .....
Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted by
many
well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
their work.
Should this happen?
There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is
on
the item and so is the decorators.
Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
cheating?
Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work
of
that particular potter?
In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
they get 2% each?
We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware for
a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt
this
compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters
in
our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
issue.
Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
Teres Whitney on thu 16 mar 00
Remember Picasso did not make his own pots. They were thrown for him and he
did the glaze application. Lots of painters do that today. Are these works
invalid?
I did some bisque work for a market here in the US but the designs were very
simple, almost common. There was no way to distinguish a style. It brought
in money to keep me going. I think it is up to the creator on either side
to sell what they think they can in any way they can without "prostituting"
or "selling out" on their own values.
My decision was to sell common bisque forms, I would not do custom forms
just so someone else could claim them as their own. If I had not needed the
money I would not have done it. Bisque usually sells so cheaply that making
money is almost not there. Good luck making the decision.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cantello Studios
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Authentic work
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I would tell this person to talk to someone in a slip casting or a jigger
>factory. If he needs hand thrown pots tell him to make them himself. I have
>been asked this question many times and that's my answer each and every
>time. I refuse to prostitute my talents and myself.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU]On Behalf
>Of Stephen Parry-Thomas
>Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 11:01 AM
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: Authentic work
>
>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hi all,
>We would like your comments on the following .....
>
>Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted
by
>many
>well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
>potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
>their work.
>Should this happen?
>There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
>sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
>working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
>We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is
>on
>the item and so is the decorators.
>
>Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
>cheating?
>Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
>Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work
>of
>that particular potter?
>In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
>and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
>artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
>they get 2% each?
>
>We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware
for
>a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
>in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt
>this
>compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters
>in
>our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
>situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
>issue.
>
>
>Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
>www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
>
Jeff Lawrence on thu 16 mar 00
Hello clayart,
By all means let us all follow our conscience -- if you don't like machines
in your presence, avoid them. If you don't want to make someone else's ware,
don't.
This thread smacks of debates in the past about which machinery would pass
the "holy enough for me" test. Opinions varied, as I recall. The wheel,
mechanistic though it be, was allowed by acclamation. THe jigger was
probably disallowed and the press -- heaven forfend!
The question for me is, what are you selling? Are you selling competent
functional products of good design or are you selling an intangible -- Clay
On WHich My Hands Have Dwelled. If the latter, why bother with functionality
at all except as an sport of nature?
Unless you are digging your own clay with a pointed stick, and forming it
with nothing but what you gather yourself (please, no gas, oil or electric
firing), you have sought efficiency in production by having others do
necessary work for you.
Enough with this hypocritical posturing about how others seek efficiency in
making their ware.
Jeff Lawrence ph. 505-753-5913
Sun Dagger Design fx. 505-753-8074
18496 US HWY 285/84 jml@sundagger.com
Espanola, NM 87532 www.sundagger.com
Bob Bruch on thu 16 mar 00
...............................original
message...........................................
<<<<<<ware for a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and
in USA
in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt this
compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters
in our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
issue.
It would be interesting to inform this person that you were planning to post
his/her name and what they are doing on Clayart. The reaction that you get
would go a long way in determining what the artist thinks of their activity.
I would guess that someone with a serious reputation would want that info
passed along to his colleagues.
Bob Bruch
Paul Taylor on fri 17 mar 00
Dear Steven and Karen.
I believe it is traditional for the potter to stamp his mark on the
pots and the decorator painting his mark. This was done even when the pot
was made in the same factory probably to do with piece ware payment.
I see no reason to stray away from this. I have been asked this my self
and I resented the assumption that their decoration was somehow the making
of a pot also the shapes I normally make are not suitable for decoration.
The fact that this person didn't see this showed ignorance.
May be this decorator is offering you some easy money so you can get
by. We have all made banquet ware to make it through the winter especially
when we start out . Maybe he will use his reputation to give you more money
for the pots than you would normally get without the hassle of finding a
buyer, thus benefiting you and he, but I feel the benefit may be short lived
if it distracts you from establishing your own reputation.
If your pottery did not show exceptional ability the decorator would go
else where so I hope the maker is getting his due, and if he is, well and
good.
The rest is just marketing. If he can get more for the pot by leaving
your name out of it he can. This is dubious morally especially if the
client values the piece because it was all made by the decorator and I would
not cooperate with this. But if my car fails it's test come April poverty
may see things different . I shall not be giving up moral codes I would
probably find a justification like 'the decorator is finding it difficult to
cope and needs my help'.
I also practice moral indignation with the best of the
fudamentalist liberals meanwhile Justifying all sorts of my own actions. I
try to remember that Stalin was an Atheist, The Spanish inquisition had God
on it's side and Hitler was a non smoking vegetarian.
In short what ever you do is wrong and right at the same time so maybe
we should do what is best for us or we could offer the decision up to the
divine and follow : scary stuff that.
Moral indignation is a better buzz but a little short lived for me.
So I am preaching instead which is an even a bigger buzz than moral
indignation.
Regards Paul T
>From: Stephen Parry-Thomas
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: Authentic work
>Date: Tue, Mar 14, 2000, 7:00 pm
>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hi all,
>We would like your comments on the following .....
>
>Over the last year we at Morrigan Craft Pottery - uk, have been contacted by
>many
>well known UK potters wanting us to make blank pots, biscuit fired. The
>potters would then glaze and decorate to their style and are then sold as
>their work.
>Should this happen?
>There are a number of potters we know who decorate other people's work and
>sell at major shows as all their own work. Other potters have students
>working for them and stamping work of students as there own. Is this right?
>We have made blanks in the past for potters who decorate, but our stamp is on
>the item and so is the decorators.
>
>Are the 'potters' who decorate blank pots and sell these as there own work,
>cheating?
>Do you see them as a potter or a decorator?
>Are the public being cheated as they think that the whole item is the work of
>that particular potter?
>In the UK the law has been changed so that if an item becomes a work of art
>and sold via an auction house 4% will be paid to the artist; but who is the
>artist? the person who made the item or the person who decorated it? Should
>they get 2% each?
>
>We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware for
>a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and in USA
>in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks we felt this
>compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one or two potters in
>our local area who have less of a problem with this situation. This
>situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome your thoughts on this
>issue.
>
>
>Stephen & Karen Parry-Thomas,
>www.morrigancraftpottery.co.uk
Janet Kaiser on sun 19 mar 00
Disregarding history, it is accepted practice today that when an artist's
signature appears on work it indicates he/she has done that work. It must be
his/her work. Anything else is a forgery. Yes, a criminal offence.
What would everyone think of the following scenario: an artist gets some one
else to make the canvas, paint the background and do all the basic work then
comes along adds a little detail, signs it and varnishes it then claims it
as their work. What would other artists think? What does the customer think?
Compare to what history has done to great artists who worked at a time when
the above practice was acceptable and indeed the norm. "In the manner of"
"attributed to" devalue their work today, so a painting out of a great
workshop where the experts think the great man only added the finishing
touches is not valued as highly as one they think was all his own work.
Picasso painted on other people's pots -- sure. But he was working in
collaboration and never claimed or insinuated he had made the pots. (There
are those amongst us who say many of his pots do not work because they were
obviously just surface decoration often disregarding to the shape of the
pot.)
If a "famous potter" wants pots with his seal/mark because he finished off a
pot, he should either pay an apprentice or student to work in his workshop
to do the donkey work or make the work himself. If he goes to a third party
then that workshop seal/mark should be added to his. Then there is no
confusion or feeling that it is either underhand, misleading or cheating.
Everyone knows where they are... galleries, customers, posterity.
I own three pieces of 19th. cent. Royal Doulton (Lambeth) where the
decorator's initials are clearly marked in slip on the surface as part of
the design and can be identified by name. The workshop is stamped on the
bottom along with the mark of the designer of the pattern. That means three
separate marks which can be authenticated to this day.
Honesty and transparency are virtues which should come naturally to potters.
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art, Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales
Home of The International Potters Path
TEL: (01766) 523570
WEB: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
EMAIL: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
Percy Toms on mon 20 mar 00
Steven Parry wrote -
>>We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware
>>for a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and
>>in USA in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks
>>we felt this compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one
>>or two potters in our local area who have less of a problem with this
>>situation. This situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome
>>your thoughts on this issue.
Janet Kaiser replied -
>If a "famous potter" wants pots with his seal/mark because he finished
>off a pot, he should either pay an apprentice or student to work in his
>workshop to do the donkey work or make the work himself. If he goes to a
>third party then that workshop seal/mark should be added to his. Then
>there is no confusion or feeling that it is either underhand, misleading
>or cheating. Everyone knows where they are... galleries, customers,
>posterity.
>Honesty and transparency are virtues which should come naturally to potters.
I agree with Janet, who cuts to the essence of this thorny issue.
Potter Steven Parry had been been asked to place Potter X's mark, and only
Potter X's mark, on the bisqueware that Steven was asked to make for Potter
X, in Steven's own workshop.
A potter's mark or stamp is in effect his/her signature. It is not a logo. It
is or should be inviolate - nobody else should touch it. It seems to me there
is something sacred about it. When we potters make our own marks, we add to
a great tradition, an art-craft culture that winds back in history and beyond
to the first potters, and -wow!-we become a part of it. To me that feels like
an honor and a sacred trust. How can I treat this shared treasure with other
than love and respect? And without honesty?
I think that any potter who approaches another potter to have them do what
this person asked of you, is revealing their dishonesty as well as a kind of
contempt, and an inner poverty that money can't reach.
Ned
Don & Isao Morrill on wed 22 mar 00
At 09:09 3/20/00 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Steven Parry wrote -
>>>We have recently turned down a substantial order to produce biscuit ware
>>>for a well established potter. His work is sold both here in the UK and
>>>in USA in major galleries. He wanted us to put his stamp on our blanks
>>>we felt this compromised our work and reputation. We have spoken to one
>>>or two potters in our local area who have less of a problem with this
>>>situation. This situation causes us much discussion, we would welcome
>>>your thoughts on this issue.
>
>
>Janet Kaiser replied -
>>If a "famous potter" wants pots with his seal/mark because he finished
>>off a pot, he should either pay an apprentice or student to work in his
>>workshop to do the donkey work or make the work himself. If he goes to a
>>third party then that workshop seal/mark should be added to his. Then
>>there is no confusion or feeling that it is either underhand, misleading
>>or cheating. Everyone knows where they are... galleries, customers,
>>posterity.
>
>>Honesty and transparency are virtues which should come naturally to potters.
>
>
>I agree with Janet, who cuts to the essence of this thorny issue.
>Potter Steven Parry had been been asked to place Potter X's mark, and only
>Potter X's mark, on the bisqueware that Steven was asked to make for Potter
>X, in Steven's own workshop.
>
>A potter's mark or stamp is in effect his/her signature. It is not a logo. It
>is or should be inviolate - nobody else should touch it. It seems to me there
>is something sacred about it. When we potters make our own marks, we add to
>a great tradition, an art-craft culture that winds back in history and beyond
>to the first potters, and -wow!-we become a part of it. To me that feels like
>an honor and a sacred trust. How can I treat this shared treasure with other
>than love and respect? And without honesty?
>
>I think that any potter who approaches another potter to have them do what
>this person asked of you, is revealing their dishonesty as well as a kind of
>contempt, and an inner poverty that money can't reach.
>
>
>Ned
> Dear 'All', Right on!All the work and no credit makes jack
poor,poor.
Don & Isao,(World navigator).
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
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